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Post by cogency on Aug 18, 2011 23:00:57 GMT 3
A lot has been said and written how Kikuyus cannot vote for any other tribe apart from their own. This argument emerged in 2005 then floated again in 2007 when they overwhelming rejected Raila and ODM. Now with the Kamukunji results now finalized any chance people can put this debate to rest? Or rather with such a low turnout would mean most Kikuyus stayed at home rather than vote.
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Post by job on Aug 18, 2011 23:11:49 GMT 3
A lot has been said and written how Kikuyus cannot vote for any other tribe apart from their own. This argument emerged in 2005 then floated again in 2007 when they overwhelming rejected Raila and ODM. Now with the Kamukunji results now finalized any chance people can put this debate to rest? Or rather with such a low turnout would mean most Kikuyus stayed at home rather than vote. There is already a thread on Kamkunji by-election - why start another parallel thread on it? |
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Post by cogency on Aug 18, 2011 23:38:01 GMT 3
A lot has been said and written how Kikuyus cannot vote for any other tribe apart from their own. This argument emerged in 2005 then floated again in 2007 when they overwhelming rejected Raila and ODM. Now with the Kamukunji results now finalized any chance people can put this debate to rest? Or rather with such a low turnout would mean most Kikuyus stayed at home rather than vote. There is already a thread on Kamkunji by-election - why start another parallel thread on it? I don't see how the two are related; they might be discussing about Kamukunji but the message is different. |
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Post by danielwaweru on Aug 19, 2011 11:07:38 GMT 3
Accuracy demands that the myth be identified as the property of ODM. Minimal knowledge of the history of the very same constituency is sufficient to debunk it. In 1963, Gikuyu voters were a majority; Munyua Waiyaki, Mboya's main opponent, was backed by the KANU hierarchy (and Odinga pere). Mboya won, on the back of an overwhelming Gikuyu vote.
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Post by mangai on Aug 19, 2011 11:50:51 GMT 3
The myth has not been on parliamentary but on presidential candidates. In 1992 Shikuku's brother was voted in as Nakuru Town MP, with a large Kikuyu population because he happened to be in Ford Asili, then supporting Kenneth Matiba for presidency. Even in 2002, many Kikuyus voted for Raila (then a Njamba) in Langata as well as other non Kikuyu candidates in Nairobi.
Can you say the same on presidential candidates?
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Post by danielwaweru on Aug 19, 2011 12:29:02 GMT 3
Wrong on both counts. Here is a characteristic statement of the ODM argument: quite simply, that Giukuyu are incorrigible tribalists who always vote for coethnics. No distinction of the kind you draw is made. As for Presidential candidates, you want to pay attention to the KANU nominations which preceded Moi's succession of Kenyatta. Kibaki's delegates, among others from Central Province, backed Moi in that election, which is partly why Kibaki ended up VP. Quite frankly, you'd do better to stop defending this stuff, since it's just a barefaced, elaborate lie. |
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Post by mangai on Aug 19, 2011 12:43:41 GMT 3
Wrong on both counts. Here is a characteristic statement of the ODM argument: quite simply, that Giukuyu are incorrigible tribalists who always vote for coethnics. No distinction of the kind you draw is made. As for Presidential candidates, you want to pay attention to the KANU nominations which preceded Moi's succession of Kenyatta. Kibaki's delegates, among others from Central Province, backed Moi in that election, which is partly why Kibaki ended up VP. Quite frankly, you'd do better to stop defending this stuff, since it's just a barefaced, elaborate lie. This is not ODM propaganda. The party was not in existence in 1997 or 2002. Did Moi have a challenger in 1978 or any other period prior to introduction of multi parties? The only times we have had proper presidential elections in Kenya majority of the Kikuyus, whether by design or fate, have tended to vote for their own. Kindly prove otherwise! 1963 Jomo Kenyatta 1992 Kenneth Matiba and Mwai Kibaki 1997 Mwai Kibaki 2002 Mwai Kibaki and Uhuru Kenyatta 2007 Mwai Kibaki |
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Post by reuben on Aug 19, 2011 14:18:13 GMT 3
I find the arguments in this thread a bit too simple. Though it can be said that Ethnic Kikuyus vote for presidential candidates from their own group, it should be remembered that there has always been a high profile candidate for them to choose from and sometimes even two. It should be noted that every time other major ethnic groups voted for an ethnic Kikuyu candidate, it was because their leader (Raila, Ruto, Mudavadi, Shikuku, Moi etc) told them to do so. In my mind, that is not so different from the Kikuyu voting on ethnic lines.
Kamukunji candidate was PNU, that is what the Kikuyu vote identified him as serving their interest.
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Post by phil on Aug 19, 2011 22:18:25 GMT 3
Accuracy demands that the myth be identified as the property of ODM. Minimal knowledge of the history of the very same constituency is sufficient to debunk it. In 1963, Gikuyu voters were a majority; Munyua Waiyaki, Mboya's main opponent, was backed by the KANU hierarchy (and Odinga pere). Mboya won, on the back of an overwhelming Gikuyu vote. And I guess the same majority Kikuyu vote that voted in Yusuf & Mboya is the same one that voted Philip Nicholas Gor in 1979 and made life so difficult for one Norman Nyagah that he was forced to take early retirement in 2007? What an excellent analysis. |
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Post by danielwaweru on Aug 20, 2011 0:07:13 GMT 3
Accuracy demands that the myth be identified as the property of ODM. Minimal knowledge of the history of the very same constituency is sufficient to debunk it. In 1963, Gikuyu voters were a majority; Munyua Waiyaki, Mboya's main opponent, was backed by the KANU hierarchy (and Odinga pere). Mboya won, on the back of an overwhelming Gikuyu vote. And I guess the same majority Kikuyu vote that voted in Yusuf & Mboya is the same one that voted Philip Nicholas Gor in 1979 and made life so difficult for one Norman Nyagah that he was forced to take early retirement in 2007? What an excellent analysis. You haven't got to take my word for it, you can look up the results, and the demographics, in David Goldsworthy's book. I know you've read it because you occasionally quote it on Kumekucha. |
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Post by danielwaweru on Aug 20, 2011 0:50:51 GMT 3
Wrong on both counts. Here is a characteristic statement of the ODM argument: quite simply, that Giukuyu are incorrigible tribalists who always vote for coethnics. No distinction of the kind you draw is made. As for Presidential candidates, you want to pay attention to the KANU nominations which preceded Moi's succession of Kenyatta. Kibaki's delegates, among others from Central Province, backed Moi in that election, which is partly why Kibaki ended up VP. Quite frankly, you'd do better to stop defending this stuff, since it's just a barefaced, elaborate lie. This is not ODM propaganda. The party was not in existence in 1997 or 2002. Did Moi have a challenger in 1978 or any other period prior to introduction of multi parties? The only times we have had proper presidential elections in Kenya majority of the Kikuyus, whether by design or fate, have tended to vote for their own. Kindly prove otherwise! 1963 Jomo Kenyatta 1992 Kenneth Matiba and Mwai Kibaki 1997 Mwai Kibaki 2002 Mwai Kibaki and Uhuru Kenyatta 2007 Mwai Kibaki (1) The age-sex pyramid has generally guaranteed that the majority of Kenyans are below voting age; there's no reason whatever to think that the majority of members of any given ethnic group are registered voters, let alone that they manage to vote for a particular candidate. (2) There was no Presidential election in 1963. In 1992, Matiba and Kibaki were the viable challengers to an unpopular incumbent: Kibaki, for example, lost Central by a massive margin to Matiba, and still remained a contender because of his strength in Eastern. (Indeed, Kibaki had the curious distinction of being the only candidate to remain competitive ins spite of losing his home province.) In 1997, again, Kibaki was the main challenger. In 2002, Uhuru failed to get a majority of the Gikuyu vote in any of the regions he contested. He actually got a higher proportion of the vote in NEP, Coast, and RVP than he did in Central. (Crude stats here.) Were ethnicity the determiner, one would have expected he and Kibaki to split the Gikuyu vote. In sum: the majority of Gikuyu haven't voted for a given candidate, seeing as that majority tends to be ineligible to vote; and Gikuyu candidates have been able to attract voters mostly because they've been viable. (3) The charge is a staple of ODM propaganda. That ODM didn't invent it doesn't prove that they don't own it. Those who didn't invent the internal combustion engine can still own cars. (4) Moi had challengers prior to his first election; that the challenges occurred within the party is poor reason to conclude that they didn't exist. This how Kibaki ended up more or less his campaign manager. (I think the story is usefully told in Throup's "The Construction and Destruction of the Kenyatta State".) |
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Post by tactician on Aug 20, 2011 18:30:35 GMT 3
This argument is very simple...but you guys are making it complicated.
Kikuyus have ALWAYS voted for the presidential candidate that their leader directed them to vote for.
Just as Luos have ALWAYS voted for the candidate that their leader has directed them to vote for.
Just as Kalenjins have ALWAYS voted for the candidate that their leader directed them to vote for.
The difference comes in that for the Kikuyus, their leader has directed them to vote for himself (ie Jomo directed Kikuyus to vote for him...just as did Matiba & Kibaki). And the Kikuyus did not disappoint their leader - they followed his directions/leadership to the letter.
The Luos are no different. They have followed the directions of their leaders to the letter. Jaramogi directed them to vote for Kenyatta and they did exactly that in 1963. He then directed them to vote for himself in 1992 and they did exactly that. Raila then assumed leadership of the Luos and directed them to vote for him in 1997 and 2007. In 2002, Raila directed Luos to vote for Kibaki and they obeyed.
So are the Kalenjin. In 1963, Moi directed Kalenjins to vote for KADU and they didnt disappoint him. He then commanded them to vote for him in 1992 and 1997 and did they disappoint him? No! Come 2002, Moi directed the Kalenjin to vote for Uhuru and again, they followed his direction. By 2007, Ruto had assumed leadership and he directed Kalenjins to vote for Raila..just as he did command Kalenjins to vote NO in the 2010 referendum. They obeyed.
In short, Kikuyus just like Luos and Kalenjins have ALWAYS followed the directive of their leaders.
The only difference is that the Kikuyu leaders think they can win the presidency cos of the Kikuyus numerical advantage.
So they invariably direct their followers to vote for them.
Can u blame them?
I say no - you cannot blame a man for exploiting his advantage so long as it is legal.
Whether it is fair or not is irrelevant. The world is unfair by definition - otherwise God would have made us all the same (look, height, colour, riches, poverty etc)
So, the only crime that Kikuyu leaders have committed is to try applying for a job and preparing for the job interviews.
Luo leaders have also applied for the job of president on many occassions - just as have Kalenjin leaders.
Sometimes though, the Luo and Kalenjin leaders have felt that they were not the best candidates and declined to apply. Whose fault was that? The candidates who bothered to apply?
The only difference is that the Kikuyu leaders think they can win the presidency cos of the Kikuyus numerical advantage.
So they invariably direct their followers to vote for them.
Can u blame them?
I say no - you cannot blame a man for exploiting his advantage so long as it is legal.
Whether it is fair or not is irrelevant. The world is unfair by definition - otherwise God would have made us all the same (look, height, colour, riches, poverty etc)
So, the only crime that Kikuyu leaders have committed is to try applying for a job and preparing for the job interviews.
Luo leaders have also applied for the job of president on many occassions - just as have Kalenjin leaders.
Sometimes though, the Luo and Kalenjin leaders have felt that they were not the best candidates and declined to apply. Whose fault was that? The candidates who bothered to apply?
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