Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 22, 2008 22:26:32 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 22, 2008 22:26:32 GMT 3

Dear Jukwaaists,

For those of you who have not been following this discussion, I would like to let you know that my brother Adongo has requested me thus: << Now that Barack Obama has come out to address the issue of racism in American politics may be it is time for Jukwaa folks to deal with sexism as it has manifested itself in the forum and on this thread. >>

And since Jukwaa policy is zero tolerance for trash talkers, tribalists, racists, SEXISTS, homophobes, religious bigots and cyberstalkers, it is in this spirit that I hereby start a new thread on this weighty and controversial topic. This will also help shifting this discussion away from the "Barracking Obama" thread.

Since most of you may have not followed the foregoing discussions on this topic, I hereby post the prelude for your information.

Re: where is rucy

« Reply #3 on Mar 10, 2008, 12:58am »

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Mar 8, 2008, 6:27pm, nereah wrote:
curious that she is mute and a no show ever since her responsibility allowance was hiked last year.

Eh Nereah!

Didn't they teach us in school to let the sleeping biatches lie? Why try waking her up? You are risking a biatch slap my dear!! We can't take biatch slaps no more!!!!
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Einstein

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Re: where is rucy

« Reply #5 on Mar 10, 2008, 6:21am »

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Mar 10, 2008, 12:58am, einstein wrote:
Mar 8, 2008, 6:27pm, nereah wrote:
curious that she is mute and a no show ever since her responsibility allowance was hiked last year.

Eh Nereah!

Didn't they teach us in school to let the sleeping biatches lie? Why try waking her up? You are risking a biatch slap my dear!! We can't take biatch slaps no more!!!!

einstein, what the hell is a biatch? Elaborate and substantiate for dumb hos (to use your "very creative" term) like me will you please? Last time I checked it will never be the right time to deploy epithets. Not racial ones nor gender specific ones. Is there ever a right time for a white person who is pissed at a black person to haul racist epithets? No. And there will never be a right time for you (einstein) to wait for REAL WOMEN (OH SORRY) LADIES to support you even as you cement the patriarchal domination which rains havoc in our lives from the moment we enter the world. Not even in the face of condemning Rucy who is a REAL WOMAN from the ruling class.
« Last Edit: Mar 10, 2008, 7:18pm by kathurekebaara41 » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged

Kathurekebaara41

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Re: where is rucy

« Reply #8 on Mar 14, 2008, 3:20am »

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Mar 10, 2008, 12:58am, einstein wrote:
Mar 8, 2008, 6:27pm, nereah wrote:
curious that she is mute and a no show ever since her responsibility allowance was hiked last year.

Eh Nereah!

Didn't they teach us in school to let the sleeping biatches lie? Why try waking her up? You are risking a biatch slap my dear!! We can't take biatch slaps no more!!!!

Honestly this is unacceptable. Must be in Jukwaa which clearly denounces sexism in all its forms. This "ho" language in Jukwaa is an assault on women who access this forum and all Kenyan women.

Thanks to the Kathures and the Fanyamambos, nobody is going to get away with sexism at Jukwaa. That is a good thing.

adongo
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Re: where is rucy

« Reply #9 on Mar 14, 2008, 10:16pm »

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Mar 14, 2008, 3:20am, adongo23456 wrote:
Mar 10, 2008, 12:58am, einstein wrote:

Eh Nereah!

Didn't they teach us in school to let the sleeping biatches lie? Why try waking her up? You are risking a biatch slap my dear!! We can't take biatch slaps no more!!!!

Honestly this is unacceptable. Must be in Jukwaa which clearly denounces sexism in all its forms. This "ho" language in Jukwaa is an assault on women who access this forum and all Kenyan women.

Thanks to the Kathures and the Fanyamambos, nobody is going to get away with sexism at Jukwaa. That is a good thing.

adongo

Adongo,

No, no this can't be you. You have reactivated this thread.

My question now is, why did it have to be you? You have a lot of admirers out there for your ever brilliant and sober contributions to debates on Jukwaa, but when you decide to lower your own dignity by joining some bandwagons in the name of fighting against some perceived sexists, then something is not right.

I say something is not right because you NEVER raised your voice when your fellow activist, the "defender of ALL women and men on earth", reduced a whole human being to a mere PRICK!

Yes, Kathure reduced Kamale to a mere PRICK right here on Jukwaa!!! At that time no woman, no man on Jukwaa lifted a finger to protest against the choice of language and neither did anyone refer to the "defender of ALL women and men on earth" as a SEXIST!!

Yes, my brother Adongo, even you personally, contributed heavily to the discussions on that very thread, but somehow it never took your otherwise very alert and keen eyes to note that a fellow Jukwaa man became the equivalent of a PRICK!!!

Are there double standards on Jukwaa?

If you read my controversial posts, you will realise that my beef is only with two specific Kenyan women!! So why all these generalisations? At no point did I refer wholesale to Jukwaa women or Kenyan women!! Why is someone trying so hard to put words in my mouth!?

Please Adongo, fighting against SEXISM is a noble cause which is NOT worth trivialising!!

And now, read this coming straight from Kathure's own mouth or keyboard if you wish:

<< Re: Confronting the December 30th Coup
« Reply #20 on Dec 31, 2007, 7:03pm »

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Kamalet,

Thats your favorite line ati people out side the country yadi yada. Son of a gun, I have family in that country. Also if it wasn't for Kenyatta's, Moi's and now Kibaki's mismanagement of our country many of us would have returned. I am not ashamed of being here prick. One day I'll be back there to help get rid of of people like you afande. At least I am not an agent of an oppressive state like you. Talk about your kikuyu arrogance. Tell us why some like you think you own the country. Mai!
« Last Edit: Dec 31, 2007, 7:25pm by kathurekebaara41 » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged >>

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1199053087

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Einstein

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1204990022

The debate then went on in the "Barracking Obama" thread as follows:

Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #150 on Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm »

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As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

Fanyamambo

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #151 on Mar 15, 2008, 6:30am »

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Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm, fanyamambo wrote:As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

I don't think calling here "the mama" is offensive. i even think that that's giving her more respect.

Deyiengs

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #159 on Mar 16, 2008, 7:06pm »

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Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm, fanyamambo wrote:As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

She is clearly a mama not a baba, ama
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Mzee1

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #160 on Mar 16, 2008, 8:02pm »

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Mar 16, 2008, 7:06pm, mzee1 wrote:
Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm, fanyamambo wrote:As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

She is clearly a mama not a baba, ama

With respect to the lady she is a "mama". I agree with you on this one.
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50Cents

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #161 on Mar 16, 2008, 8:05pm »

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Mar 16, 2008, 7:06pm, mzee1 wrote:
Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm, fanyamambo wrote:As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

She is clearly a mama not a baba, ama

Fanyamambo is suffering from some weird political corectness.
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50Cents

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #169 on Mar 17, 2008, 2:14am »

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Mar 14, 2008, 1:13pm, fanyamambo wrote:As much as I am enjoying catching up here on Jukwaa, and this thread in particular with its minute by minute updates on Obama, JAHAATWACH could I ask you to please stop calling Senator Clinton 'the mama' - clearly you don't support her, but there is no need to be sexist about it.

What is this obsession with SEXISM even where there is none? Are our women folk not confident enough in themselves and would rather suffer from inferiority complex?

Why keep on hiding behind the facade of SEXISM every time a feminine word is used in reference to a woman? I bet next time you will get offended when men refer to you as WOMEN!! What should you be called then? MEN I suppose?!!

In that case let's declare the whole human race "MEN" if that makes you happy!
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Einstein

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #170 on Mar 17, 2008, 4:30pm »

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Einstein I don't know who 'your women folk' are but I am certainly not counted amongst them. I pity them - whoever they are.

What on earth is a 'feminine' word. If Hillary Clinton is a woman by all means please refer to her as a woman - I think that's pretty straightforward.
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Fanyamambo

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #173 on Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm »

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Mar 17, 2008, 4:30pm, fanyamambo wrote:Einstein I don't know who 'your women folk' are but I am certainly not counted amongst them. I pity them - whoever they are.

What on earth is a 'feminine' word. If Hillary Clinton is a woman by all means please refer to her as a woman - I think that's pretty straightforward.

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

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Einstein

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #180 on Mar 19, 2008, 12:28pm »

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Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm, einstein wrote:
Mar 17, 2008, 4:30pm, fanyamambo wrote:Einstein I don't know who 'your women folk' are but I am certainly not counted amongst them. I pity them - whoever they are.

What on earth is a 'feminine' word. If Hillary Clinton is a woman by all means please refer to her as a woman - I think that's pretty straightforward.

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

Thanks for the lecture

Actually I do think it is pretty straight forward. If you are a Kenyan you know that 'mama' is used not only to refer to mothers but to women in general - e.g usually when a man says he is with his 'mama' he does not usually mean his mother. 'Mama' is often also used in a flippant and deragotory manner against women. Sample 'kamama' 'another mama'.

If Jahaatwach was repeatedly using ' the mama' to mean 'mother' (unlikely) then I still take issue. Whether Senator Clinton is a mother or not is irrelevant in this context. She does not go around calling herself Mama Chelsea. She is not running as a mother rather as a qualified and experienced politician.

As one of those people in the fight against sexism, I assure you that the least of our worries is 'pissing off those very people we need on our side'. You see that's just the way it goes.
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Fanyamambo

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #182 on Mar 20, 2008, 2:06pm »

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Mar 19, 2008, 12:28pm, fanyamambo wrote:
Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm, einstein wrote:

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

Thanks for the lecture

Actually I do think it is pretty straight forward. If you are a Kenyan you know that 'mama' is used not only to refer to mothers but to women in general - e.g usually when a man says he is with his 'mama' he does not usually mean his mother. 'Mama' is often also used in a flippant and deragotory manner against women. Sample 'kamama' 'another mama'.

If Jahaatwach was repeatedly using ' the mama' to mean 'mother' (unlikely) then I still take issue. Whether Senator Clinton is a mother or not is irrelevant in this context. She does not go around calling herself Mama Chelsea. She is not running as a mother rather as a qualified and experienced politician.

As one of those people in the fight against sexism, I assure you that the least of our worries is 'pissing off those very people we need on our side'. You see that's just the way it goes.

Fanyamambo,
A mama is simply a person who is a mother to someone else. If Hillary did not have a child and was referred to as a "mama" then I would have thought that she was being "put down". But since she has a daughter, she qualifies to be called mama. I do think that you are misunderstanding the whole mama thing. The negativity is in your mind, period.
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Mzee1

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #183 on Mar 20, 2008, 9:53pm »

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Mar 20, 2008, 2:06pm, mzee1 wrote:
Mar 19, 2008, 12:28pm, fanyamambo wrote:

Thanks for the lecture

Actually I do think it is pretty straight forward. If you are a Kenyan you know that 'mama' is used not only to refer to mothers but to women in general - e.g usually when a man says he is with his 'mama' he does not usually mean his mother. 'Mama' is often also used in a flippant and deragotory manner against women. Sample 'kamama' 'another mama'.

If Jahaatwach was repeatedly using ' the mama' to mean 'mother' (unlikely) then I still take issue. Whether Senator Clinton is a mother or not is irrelevant in this context. She does not go around calling herself Mama Chelsea. She is not running as a mother rather as a qualified and experienced politician.

As one of those people in the fight against sexism, I assure you that the least of our worries is 'pissing off those very people we need on our side'. You see that's just the way it goes.

Fanyamambo,
A mama is simply a person who is a mother to someone else. If Hillary did not have a child and was referred to as a "mama" then I would have thought that she was being "put down". But since she has a daughter, she qualifies to be called mama. I do think that you are misunderstanding the whole mama thing. The negativity is in your mind, period.

<<The negativity is in your mind, period.>>

Thanks for that Mzee!!
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Einstein

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Last Edit: Apr 9, 2008 4:37:45 GMT 3 by einstein

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 22, 2008 22:32:52 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 22, 2008 22:32:52 GMT 3

Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #184 on Yesterday at 3:10am »

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Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm, einstein wrote:
Mar 17, 2008, 4:30pm, fanyamambo wrote:Einstein I don't know who 'your women folk' are but I am certainly not counted amongst them. I pity them - whoever they are.

What on earth is a 'feminine' word. If Hillary Clinton is a woman by all means please refer to her as a woman - I think that's pretty straightforward.

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

einstein

Now that Barack Obama has come out to address the issue of racism in American politics may be it is time for Jukwaa folks to deal with sexism as it has manifested itself in the forum and on this thread. As we all know, it has.

einstein I was stunned by your statement that if people like fanyamambo persist on fighting for the rights of women they could possibly "piss off" some people who they need on their side. That reminded some of us about white folks here in North America (Canada and USA) who tell us not to make them mad when we raise issues of racism. They threaten us that if we got them mad, they would be so racist we would regret it. Often we ask them to go ahead. Justice and equality cannot be acts of mercy either in terms of race or gender granted to the victims on the basis that they bahave according to the wishes of those who would otherwise oppress them even more if they ever raised a finger in protest.

adongo

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #185 on Today at 12:37am »

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Mar 19, 2008, 12:28pm, fanyamambo wrote:
Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm, einstein wrote:

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

Thanks for the lecture

Actually I do think it is pretty straight forward. If you are a Kenyan you know that 'mama' is used not only to refer to mothers but to women in general - e.g usually when a man says he is with his 'mama' he does not usually mean his mother. 'Mama' is often also used in a flippant and deragotory manner against women. Sample 'kamama' 'another mama'.

If Jahaatwach was repeatedly using ' the mama' to mean 'mother' (unlikely) then I still take issue. Whether Senator Clinton is a mother or not is irrelevant in this context. She does not go around calling herself Mama Chelsea. She is not running as a mother rather as a qualified and experienced politician.

As one of those people in the fight against sexism, I assure you that the least of our worries is 'pissing off those very people we need on our side'. You see that's just the way it goes.

...... then go on baby and fight the fight of your life!! I hope I'm not being a SEXIST by using the word "baby"!
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Einstein

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #186 on Today at 12:38am »

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Yesterday at 3:10am, adongo23456 wrote:
Mar 17, 2008, 11:35pm, einstein wrote:

Fanyamambo,

It is not as straightforward as you may think.

According to Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 'feminine' words are a class of words that refer to female persons, animals, etc and often have a special form: 'Lioness' is the feminine form of 'lion'. The feminine equivalent of 'earl' is 'countess'. Following this logic, the feminine form of 'father' is 'mother'!

Now 'mother' refers to a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth. Thus 'mothers' are a sub-set of 'women'. Mothers in many languages worldwide are addressed as 'mama'.

This means that 'mothers' are the equivalent of 'mamas'. If 'mothers' are then a sub-set of women as stated above, it follows that 'mamas' are a sub-set of women.

Now let us go back to Senator Hillary Clinton. She is a woman by all means as you stated above. But the Senator also happens to be a mother as defined above which in turn is the equivalence of a mama! So when someone refers to her as a mama, the implication is that she is a woman!!

So, why do you get offended by the word 'mama' in reference to the Senator yet you feel good when she is referred to as a 'woman'?

ALL mamas are women, but NOT ALL women are mamas! If you would have complained about someone referring to ALL women as mamas, I would have agreed with you all the way. But refusing to accept that ALL mamas are women is simply amazing!!

Like I said elsewhere on this forum, the fight against SEXISM is a noble fight NOT worth trivialising. I only hope that those fighting this fight, really know who their targets are, otherwise you will lose the fight by pissing off the very people you need on your side.

einstein

Now that Barack Obama has come out to address the issue of racism in American politics may be it is time for Jukwaa folks to deal with sexism as it has manifested itself in the forum and on this thread. As we all know, it has.

einstein I was stunned by your statement that if people like fanyamambo persist on fighting for the rights of women they could possibly "piss off" some people who they need on their side. That reminded some of us about white folks here in North America (Canada and USA) who tell us not to make them mad when we raise issues of racism. They threaten us that if we got them mad, they would be so racist we would regret it. Often we ask them to go ahead. Justice and equality cannot be acts of mercy either in terms of race or gender granted to the victims on the basis that they bahave according to the wishes of those who would otherwise oppress them even more if they ever raised a finger in protest.

adongo

Brother Adongo,

I will respond to you shortly.
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Einstein

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Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #187 on Today at 2:30am »

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Today at 12:37am, einstein wrote:
Mar 19, 2008, 12:28pm, fanyamambo wrote:

Thanks for the lecture

Actually I do think it is pretty straight forward. If you are a Kenyan you know that 'mama' is used not only to refer to mothers but to women in general - e.g usually when a man says he is with his 'mama' he does not usually mean his mother. 'Mama' is often also used in a flippant and deragotory manner against women. Sample 'kamama' 'another mama'.

If Jahaatwach was repeatedly using ' the mama' to mean 'mother' (unlikely) then I still take issue. Whether Senator Clinton is a mother or not is irrelevant in this context. She does not go around calling herself Mama Chelsea. She is not running as a mother rather as a qualified and experienced politician.

As one of those people in the fight against sexism, I assure you that the least of our worries is 'pissing off those very people we need on our side'. You see that's just the way it goes.

...... then go on baby and fight the fight of your life!! I hope I'm not being a SEXIST by using the word "baby"!

einsteine,

Why don't you actually respond to the issues that sistah Fanyamambo raises here and elsewhere on the other thread where you "set me and her and Adongo straight" or is it here? albeit in different and very gendered ways! And yes, it is sexist of you (particularly in this context) to call her baby. She ain't your baby and like she asserts neither is Hillary Clinton your mama! Further, in your insistence at trivializing the life and death issues of the patriarchal domination of women by men, you have delved into the misogyny. Misogyny will never contribute to the overall liberation of Kenyans or people anywhere in this world. Misogyny only serves to usurp the needed energies of resistance. Resistance to the denial of those very rights for which you agitate, such as the right to a democratic vote in our country. So my brother, I think that you and other men will have to pull up your socks if you are truly committed to the necessary fundamental change for the better in Kenya. Raise up and nurture a feminist consciousness in yourselves and others.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_hooks

www.allaboutbell.com/

www.education.miami.edu/ep/contemporaryed/Bell_Hooks/bell_hooks.html

womenshistory.about.com/library/qu/blquhook.htm

www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/dec95hooks.htm

just a sample of the brilliance out there!
« Last Edit: Today at 7:14am by kathurekebaara41 » Link to Post - Back to Top Logged

Kathurekebaara41

****************************************************

Re: Barracking Obama
« Reply #188 on Today at 10:18pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today at 2:30am, kathurekebaara41 wrote:
Today at 12:37am, einstein wrote:

...... then go on baby and fight the fight of your life!! I hope I'm not being a SEXIST by using the word "baby"!

einsteine,

Why don't you actually respond to the issues that sistah Fanyamambo raises here and elsewhere on the other thread where you "set me and her and Adongo straight" or is it here? albeit in different and very gendered ways! And yes, it is sexist of you (particularly in this context) to call her baby. She ain't your baby and like she asserts neither is Hillary Clinton your mama! Further, in your insistence at trivializing the life and death issues of the patriarchal domination of women by men, you have delved into the misogyny. Misogyny will never contribute to the overall liberation of Kenyans or people anywhere in this world. Misogyny only serves to usurp the needed energies of resistance. Resistance to the denial of those very rights for which you agitate, such as the right to a democratic vote in our country. So my brother, I think that you and other men will have to pull up your socks if you are truly committed to the necessary fundamental change for the better in Kenya. Raise up and nurture a feminist consciousness in yourselves and others.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_hooks

www.allaboutbell.com/

www.education.miami.edu/ep/contemporaryed/Bell_Hooks/bell_hooks.html

womenshistory.about.com/library/qu/blquhook.htm

www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/dec95hooks.htm

just a sample of the brilliance out there!

No, Kathure, she ain't my baby, and you ain't my baby too! You both ain't nothing but crybabies!! Both of you are no better than Henny Penny screaming all over the place "The sky is falling down, I must go and tell the king.!!!" Please let us debate this issue from tomorrow onwards on the thread titled "Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa" and see where we differ! I ain't your enemy and you will always remain my sister even in disagreements!!!!
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1202310009&page=6

Einstein

My submissions to the topic follow tomorrow.

****************************************************

Last Edit: Mar 22, 2008 23:36:10 GMT 3 by einstein

theanarchomugikuyu
Guest

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 0:30:52 GMT 3

Post by theanarchomugikuyu on Mar 23, 2008 0:30:52 GMT 3

Einstein,

I'm afraid some of the things you've said here are simply unacceptable. Some slack ought to be cut for the heat of political debate, and the general pre and post-election madness, but the language you've repeatedly used is beyond the pale. Nor are alone in that vice. Adongo is entirely correct to raise the issue.

This sexism is not mere venting: it is a social attitude that has real-world consequences. It is no accident that the most gruesome and dehumanizing forms of post-election violence were directed at women; it is no accident that the people who were burnt in Eldoret and Naivasha were mostly women (and children). I know of some utterly horrific cases of post-election gang-rape in Nairobi: one woman in the slums was raped by 17 men and left for dead; in another case, several women, some as young as 12, were deliberately rounded up and taken to a stream in Kibera, there to be assaulted. Let me repeat, these attitudes of contempt have actual life-destroying consequences for women.

Deleted
Deleted Member

Posts: 0

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 1:31:28 GMT 3

Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2008 1:31:28 GMT 3

theanarchomugikuyu,

thanks for the solidarity and the clarity of your comments above.

Perhaps as evidenced by his shock at Adongo's initial comments castigating him for his stance; einstein expects all men and some male identified women here at JUKWAA to close ranks against "crybabies" like fanyamambo and I. Well, it is not to be.

There are some men who will stand up and be counted in support of women's struggles and come out clearly against the patriarchy. If not for the women in their lives such as daughters, mothers partners etc then for themselves because even as patriarchy privileges males it also dehumanizes them in many ways.

thingamajig said:

Einstein,

I'm afraid some of the things you've said here are simply unacceptable. Some slack ought to be cut for the heat of political debate, and the general pre and post-election madness, but the language you've repeatedly used is beyond the pale. Nor are alone in that vice. Adongo is entirely correct to raise the issue.

This sexism is not mere venting: it is a social attitude that has real-world consequences. It is no accident that the most gruesome and dehumanizing forms of post-election violence were directed at women; it is no accident that the people who were burnt in Eldoret and Naivasha were mostly women (and children). I know of some utterly horrific cases of post-election gang-rape in Nairobi: one woman in the slums was raped by 17 men and left for dead; in another case, several women, some as young as 12, were deliberately rounded up and taken to a stream in Kibera, there to be assaulted. Let me repeat, these attitudes of contempt have actual life-destroying consequences for women.

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 2:02:40 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 23, 2008 2:02:40 GMT 3

kathurekebaara41 said:

theanarchomugikuyu,

thanks for the solidarity and the clarity of your comments above.

Perhaps as evidenced by his shock at Adongo's initial comments castigating him for his stance; einstein expects all men and some male identified women here at JUKWAA to close ranks against "crybabies" like fanyamambo and I. Well, it is not to be.

There are some men who will stand up and be counted in support of women's struggles and come out clearly against the patriarchy. If not for the women in their lives such as daughters, mothers partners etc then for themselves because even as patriarchy privileges males it also dehumanizes them in many ways.

thingamajig said:

Einstein,

I'm afraid some of the things you've said here are simply unacceptable. Some slack ought to be cut for the heat of political debate, and the general pre and post-election madness, but the language you've repeatedly used is beyond the pale. Nor are alone in that vice. Adongo is entirely correct to raise the issue.

This sexism is not mere venting: it is a social attitude that has real-world consequences. It is no accident that the most gruesome and dehumanizing forms of post-election violence were directed at women; it is no accident that the people who were burnt in Eldoret and Naivasha were mostly women (and children). I know of some utterly horrific cases of post-election gang-rape in Nairobi: one woman in the slums was raped by 17 men and left for dead; in another case, several women, some as young as 12, were deliberately rounded up and taken to a stream in Kibera, there to be assaulted. Let me repeat, these attitudes of contempt have actual life-destroying consequences for women.

You have jumped the gun too!! I will be on tomorrow as promised!!!!

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 2:20:11 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 23, 2008 2:20:11 GMT 3

theanarchomugikuyu said:

Einstein,

I'm afraid some of the things you've said here are simply unacceptable. Some slack ought to be cut for the heat of political debate, and the general pre and post-election madness, but the language you've repeatedly used is beyond the pale. Nor are alone in that vice. Adongo is entirely correct to raise the issue.

This sexism is not mere venting: it is a social attitude that has real-world consequences. It is no accident that the most gruesome and dehumanizing forms of post-election violence were directed at women; it is no accident that the people who were burnt in Eldoret and Naivasha were mostly women (and children). I know of some utterly horrific cases of post-election gang-rape in Nairobi: one woman in the slums was raped by 17 men and left for dead; in another case, several women, some as young as 12, were deliberately rounded up and taken to a stream in Kibera, there to be assaulted. Let me repeat, these attitudes of contempt have actual life-destroying consequences for women.

Mate,

You are faster than your self!! Please, let me give my presentation tomorrow and thereafter you can rant and rave as much as you want, okay??

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2008 2:33:00 GMT 3 by einstein

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 2:47:08 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 23, 2008 2:47:08 GMT 3

kathurekebaara41 said:

theanarchomugikuyu,

thanks for the solidarity and the clarity of your comments above.

Perhaps as evidenced by his shock at Adongo's initial comments castigating him for his stance; einstein expects all men and some male identified women here at JUKWAA to close ranks against "crybabies" like fanyamambo and I. Well, it is not to be.

There are some men who will stand up and be counted in support of women's struggles and come out clearly against the patriarchy. If not for the women in their lives such as daughters, mothers partners etc then for themselves because even as patriarchy privileges males it also dehumanizes them in many ways.

thingamajig said:

Einstein,

I'm afraid some of the things you've said here are simply unacceptable. Some slack ought to be cut for the heat of political debate, and the general pre and post-election madness, but the language you've repeatedly used is beyond the pale. Nor are alone in that vice. Adongo is entirely correct to raise the issue.

This sexism is not mere venting: it is a social attitude that has real-world consequences. It is no accident that the most gruesome and dehumanizing forms of post-election violence were directed at women; it is no accident that the people who were burnt in Eldoret and Naivasha were mostly women (and children). I know of some utterly horrific cases of post-election gang-rape in Nairobi: one woman in the slums was raped by 17 men and left for dead; in another case, several women, some as young as 12, were deliberately rounded up and taken to a stream in Kibera, there to be assaulted. Let me repeat, these attitudes of contempt have actual life-destroying consequences for women.

Please wait till tomorrow, I hope by then I will have an answer for you!!

adongo23456
Vintage Member

Posts: 7,875

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 5:30:44 GMT 3

Post by adongo23456 on Mar 23, 2008 5:30:44 GMT 3

Einstein

Thanks for breaking off the thread from the Obama one. Yet even there, I must still confess that I consider issues of gender and race oppression, benign or otherwise, as important forces that determine the politics of our so-called shared humanity in the USA and my country Kenya. In fact those issues are at the heart of the debate in the USA as to who will not only be the nominee from the DP, but who among the two, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama can beat the Bush clone called Senator John McCain of the Republican party.

I watched a video clip of the guy (John McCain) during his visit to Iraq and the Middle East giving an international press conference. He couldn't distinguish between Sunni and Shia Muslims in that high profile press conference. He said Iran was training Al qaeda. Senator Joe Liberman, his buddy, had to whisper in his ears in front of the cameras to tell him Iran was not training Al qaeda. McCain came back to apologize on camera. It was just a mess.

This John McCain dude wants to go and bomb Iran and seems to have no clue why. Obviously that is another story, but it too has all the angles of race and gender. They say Barack Obama as an African American is not patriotic enough, he is not American enough. Same way they may say a woman is not strong enough to lead in either country. Do we ever have problems? Yes we do. And you know the other side of the story. Yes we can overcome. I love that slogan of Americans who love and think Barack Obama brings something new to American politics.

Anyways now that we are here talking about sexism amongst ourselves, I must say it is a good thing. This will be one of those threads where you have both the oppressors and oppressed in frank dialogue and sometimes even on one side. As men I know we do horrible things against women, sometimes even in our sleep. I usually tell my white workmates that white folk can be racist even in their sleep. Some of them think they can only be racist if they called a black person a n.igga and/or such other overt things. And then of course they tell you about their very many black "friends", to re-assure you that they can never ever be racist. I guess we are on the same spot as men on the issue of sexism among Kenyan activists. Thanks to you.

Anyhow this will be a good discussion. Most men are sexist even in the smallest ways. This is not about einsten. It should be a honest and genuine discussion even with suggestions and ideas on what can be done at all levels.

theanarchomugikuyu, introduced an important discussion about Gender Based Violence (GBV) at the camps and during the post electoral violence. The evidence is clear. Women and girls were prime targets from all sides. They had nowhere to turn. Everybody was after them. The police, the gangs, even there own relatives, service providers and everybody else.

I think we should also look at those issues and engage ourselves in helping to find solutions. This must never be a competition as to which men are the least sexist. Frankly nobody cares. It has to be a discourse on how sexism and gender biases and more so GBV is harmful to our country and to humanity. I think the references and links from Kathure are very appropriate and relevant to this discussion.

adongo

Last Edit: Mar 23, 2008 6:35:43 GMT 3 by adongo23456

afrigun
Senior Member

Posts: 321

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 23, 2008 13:28:17 GMT 3

Post by afrigun on Mar 23, 2008 13:28:17 GMT 3

adongo23456 said:

Einstein

Thanks for breaking off the thread from the Obama one. Yet even there, I must still confess that I consider issues of gender and race oppression, benign or otherwise, as important forces that determine the politics of our so-called shared humanity in the USA and my country Kenya....

Anyways now that we are here talking about sexism amongst ourselves, I must say it is a good thing. This will be one of those threads where you have both the oppressors and oppressed in frank dialogue and sometimes even on one side. As men I know we do horrible things against women, sometimes even in our sleep.

Anyhow this will be a good discussion. Most men are sexist even in the smallest ways. This is not about einsten. It should be a honest and genuine discussion even with suggestions and ideas on what can be done at all levels.

theanarchomugikuyu, introduced an important discussion about Gender Based Violence (GBV) at the camps and during the post electoral violence. The evidence is clear. Women and girls were prime targets from all sides. They had nowhere to turn. Everybody was after them. The police, the gangs, even there own relatives, service providers and everybody else.

I think we should also look at those issues and engage ourselves in helping to find solutions. This must never be a competition as to which men are the least sexist. Frankly nobody cares. It has to be a discourse on how sexism and gender biases and more so GBV is harmful to our country and to humanity. I think the references and links from Kathure are very appropriate and relevant to this discussion.

adongo

To me this discussion had veered into and got lost in semantics and posturing while totally missing the issue at hand. what brought it to the fore was einstein and kathure using what were clearly derogatory words, words they obviously shouldn't have used and which, really should have no place in a respectable forum.

this is what should have been addressed. there have been many instances where such and other words are here used liberally and without censure.

Isn't it ironic that we are all apparently free to say "Karucy" or "Rucy", "MKM", "general sloth", "woman with loose morals" etc, words which are clearly and fully intended to be derogatory and abusive to the person being referred to, yet it is apparently NOT proper to refer to a female human being as a woman or a mama or dame or manzi, words which are used colloquially with no derogatory intention, just like i dont think anyone would object to chali, msee, buda, baba, mbuyu and such.

It is necessary that abusive demeaning and other derogatory words of whatever nature should be completely discouraged and done away with on this forum. Lets change our attitudes to one another and the subjects of our discussions. Lets there be no disrespect.

Many of us are guiltier than we can imagine of this vice, yet there is never any justification to demean, belittle or abuse anyone you disagree with or dislike.

On Sexism, i think its just another one of those prejudices which have no place in society but is being addressed wrongly. The exchanges between einstein and other on whether the words used are sexist or not do in my opinion, belittle the issue. The numerous NGOs and other organizations directed specifically at women are in my opinion, misconceived.

Prejudice is prejudice, Abuse is abuse, and a crime is a crime, whether directed at women or men or children or any section of the society. It should be dealt with as such and not merely as special prejudice, abuse or crime directed at women or females.

Our society needs to deal with all forms of prejudice as such, and direct all its energies to improving the lot of ALL members of the society without discrimination.

the things women go through in this country are horrible, but they shall not be eliminated until and unless the entire society has been changed and uplifted from the depths which we have fallen, socially, politically and economically. the entire society is suffering together with the women. Just like the anarchomogikuyu has pointed out the atrocities committed against women during the post election violence, there were also men and boys who suffered equally atrocious experiences. None of them should have to go through what they did.

My point is that we should commit ourselves to uplifting our society as a whole. Why is sexual discrimination not as pervasive in the developed world? Isn't it because of the socio economic and political development in those societies? where everyones Rights are upheld? And a crime is a crime, and any form of prejudice of whatever nature is frowned upon, and not merely because it is more specifically against a woman or child or man?

Daktari wa makazi
Senior Member

Posts: 438

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 24, 2008 3:20:17 GMT 3

Post by Daktari wa makazi on Mar 24, 2008 3:20:17 GMT 3

While enjoying my holidays, I could not help but read the discussion about sexism.

Afrigun

Your posting above, while clear on the merit of the discussion, missed a serious point.

Offences against women, including rape, are grave and heinous crimes which for a long time have gone unnoticed. Unfortunately, these crimes are not punished adequately because of many factors, including our own perspective of the nature of the crimes. The truth of the matter is that we, as a society, have failed our women considerably. And, it is for that reason that such crimes must be given more priority, simply because they are prevalent and common to hear about but not hear anything done about them. The reports on post-election violence speaks volumes.

I personally believe that we must seriously do a lot more to curtail the notorious crimes against women - and if that means we spare a little bit more over and above other crimes to tackle it, so be it. The simple truth is that to do otherwise will mean denying women the necessary protection, legal and moral, they really need. So yes, our society should deal with all crimes based prejudices, but more pressingly should address the rampant offences against women which unfortunately is not been dealt with strenuously at the moment.

Secondly, the criminal offences against women have significant element of specificity about it – it is only women who face rape, etc. Actually, to my mind, rape is still defined as having sexual intercourse without consent, where sexual intercourse is between man and woman. Men can be sodomised not raped. I know the rate of convictions on rape in Kenya is very low mainly because in some of our societies, it is held that women are there for the pleasure of men, where those be husbands, fathers, uncles, neighbors, employers, etc.

Now back to my holidays.

So long

Last Edit: Mar 24, 2008 3:27:53 GMT 3 by Daktari wa makazi

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 24, 2008 3:53:52 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 24, 2008 3:53:52 GMT 3

Dear Jukwaaists,

Were Obama a Kenyan and a member of Jukwaa, this is what I believe his speech on SEXISM in Kenya would have been, all derived from his speech on RACISM in the US of A. Since I had to do a quick paraphrase of his speech to fit this topic, I beg for your understanding regarding mistakes that I might have made in the process.

Here you go!

<<Of course, the answer to the sexism question was already embedded within our Constitution right away after getting our independence - a Constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

And yet words on a piece of paper would not be enough to deliver the Kenyan women from bondage, or provide both the Kenyan women and men their full rights and obligations as citizens of Kenya. What is needed are Kenyans in the current generation who are willing to do their part - through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of our time.

The fight against sexism is a noble fight which I believe deeply that we cannot win unless both women and men of goodwill join hands together with the common purpose of ridding the Kenyan society of this ill - unless we perfect our solidarity by understanding that we may be physically different as women and men, but we hold common hopes and that is, we all want to move in the same direction - towards a better future for our children and our grandchildren.

There have been numerous debates about sexism in Kenya. On one end of the spectrum, we've heard how some of our politicians reduced the fight against the violation of women rights in all spheres of life to somehow an exercise in affirmative action; that was based solely on the desire by our wide-eyed politicians to win women votes on the cheap in our last general elections. On the other end, we've heard the likes of Einstein, Kathure and Fanyamambo use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the gap between the two sexes, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend women and men alike.

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of the above persons right here on Jukwaa that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know them to be an occasionally fierce critic of Kenyan domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever notice them write remarks on Jukwaa that could be considered controversial while I participated in those very discussions? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of their views regarding sexism? No, I didn’t – instead I chose either to be partisan in my comments or succumbed to cowardice and said nothing at all.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply some Jukwaaist effort to speak out against the trivialisation of the fight against sexism. Instead, they expressed a profoundly correct view of the fight against sexism in Kenya - a view that sees sexism as endemic and as such should be fought against with all the might that all Kenyans have at their disposal. Trivialising this fight will get Kenya no where.

Knowing many Jukwaaists would either rather scream “crucify him, crucify him!!” or rather not stand up to be counted (and many Kenyans are notorious for this), and given my stand on this issue and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation about trivialising the fight against sexism are not enough.

The amazing thing about some Jukwaaists is the speed with which they are ready to condemn their fellow Jukwaaists against some perceived wrongs but at the same time conveniently forget that they have committed those very same wrongs right here on Jukwaa! I challenge those of you who are quick to throw stones at me to allow me to carry out a quick search on your posts right here on Jukwaa and other forum in which you have participated to see just how much filth you have been spewing all over the cyberspace! Please remember that the fight against sexism is not going to be won on a contest platform in which the juries try to determine the winner on the basis of how many stones you managed to throw at your perceived enemy, on the contrary, it will be won by a concerted effort by both sexes to tackle the issue head on! Sideshows will help no one in this fight!

On that score, I can no more disown Kathure than I can disown my very self. I can no more disown Fanyamambo than I can all the Jukwaaists who read all this non-sense right here on Jukwaa, but decided to turn a blind eye to it.
Some Jukwaaists will see this as an attempt on my part to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. You can dismiss me as a crank or a demagogue.

But sexism is an issue that I believe Kenya cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that people like myself, Kathure and Fanyamambo did - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few days reflect the complexities of sexism in Kenya that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges that face our nation..

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of injustices as they partain to our country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in Kenya today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of sexism.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them 45 years after independence, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's female and male students. Why is it that in the developed countries both sexes are allowed to learn together without compromising the quality of education?

Legalized discrimination - where women were prevented, often through outdated and unwritten traditional laws, from owning property, or loans - meant that women cannot amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between men and women in our country, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among women, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of many a Kenyan families - a problem that will never be solved, unless we address the issue of sexism squarely.

This is the reality in which most Kenyan women and men of his generation grew up. Most of us came of age at a time when sexism is still the law of the land and opportunity is systematically constricted. What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many women overcame and still do overcome the odds; how many were and are able to make a way out of no way for the benefit of the future generation.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the Kenyan Dream, there were many women and men who didn't make it - those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations - those young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those women who did make it, questions of sexism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the women of Kathure’s and Fanyamambo’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of male co-workers or men-friends. But it does find voice in the cyberspace or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to garner votes along sexist lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings. Wasn’t gender made a campaign issue in our last disgraced general elections?

And occasionally it finds voice in the cyberspace. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger on Jukwaa cyberspace simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in our lives occurs in cyberspace. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the Kenyan community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the sexes.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the male community. Most working- and middle-class Kenyans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their sex. As far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs handed over to women in the name of affirmative action. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which the dreams of women come at the expense of that of men. So when they are told to give women an equal chance; when they hear that a women is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the women community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for many generations. Talk about affirmative action started towards the end of the Moi regime, the Kibaki regime used it in the last general elections as a campaign tool and so did Raila. These politicians routinely exploited the idea of affirmative action for their own electoral ends. Many of our politicians and Kenya’s human rights activists have built their entire careers unmasking claims of sexism while dismissing legitimate discussions of injustices caused by sexism and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse sexism.

Just as women anger often proved counterproductive, so have these male resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the upper and middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Kenyan society dominated by lobbyists and special interests groups; economic policies that favour men over women. And yet, to wish away the resentments of women, to label them as misguided or even sexist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the divide between the both sexes, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It's a sexist stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, women or men, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can solve the problem of sexism in a single day.

But I’m of the conviction that working together we can move beyond some of our old sexism wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect Kenya.

For the Kenyan community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of a Kenyan life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better and fair Kenya - to the larger aspirations of all Kenyans -- the woman struggling to feed her children, the man whose been laid off to give way for affirmative action etc. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

But the profound mistake we make when we speak against sexism is not that we speak against sexism in our society. It's that we speak as if Kenya was a static society; as if no progress has been made; as if this country is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that Kenya can change. That is the true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - just count the number of women in parliament this time around and imagine the number that will possibly become ministers! Surely, we have come a long way, but in that journey we have made huge strides!

In the women community, the path to a more perfect Kenya means acknowledging that what ails the women community does not just exist in the minds of women; that the legacy of discrimination are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Kenyans to realise that the dreams of women do not have to come at the expense of dreams of men; that investing in the education of both women and men will ultimately help all Kenyans to prosper.

In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. Or we can decide as Kenyans to tackle the monster of sexism head on. We can do that. >>

Last Edit: Mar 24, 2008 4:25:21 GMT 3 by einstein

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Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 24, 2008 22:58:39 GMT 3

Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2008 22:58:39 GMT 3

einstein I will respond (in bold) within the body of "your comments" here.

quote author=einstein board=general thread=1206213992 post=1206320032]Dear Jukwaaists,

Were Obama a Kenyan and a member of Jukwaa, this is what I believe his speech on SEXISM in Kenya would have been, all derived from his speech on RACISM in the US of A.

You can't do that. Though one can draw many parallels in analyzing various forms of oppression and though many analogies can be drawn in looking at the workings of varying forms of oppression; you must arm yourself with an analysis that incorporates an understanding of the commonalities & importantly specificities of domination and oppression mediated by varying historical factors.

Since I had to do a quick paraphrase of his speech to fit this topic, I beg for your understanding regarding mistakes that I might have made in the process.

What mistakes, typos or ideological ones?

Here you go!<<

Of course, the answer to the sexism question was already embedded within our Constitution right away after getting our independence -

Was it really? a Constitution that had at its very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

Except that this constitution embedded patriarchy and misogyny as well as other forms of exclusion into its heart.

And yet words on a piece of paper would not be enough to deliver the Kenyan women from bondage, or provide both the Kenyan women and men their full rights and obligations as citizens of Kenya.

As evidenced above, my point exactly.

What is needed are Kenyans in the current generation who are willing to do their part - through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of our time.

Are you telling me to relocate to Nairobi in order to make a contribution to the Kenyan struggles in their myriad forms? If my memory serves me right, you said so or alluded to it in another posting.

The fight against sexism is a noble fight which I believe deeply that we cannot win unless both women and men of goodwill join hands together with the common purpose of ridding the Kenyan society of this ill - unless we perfect our solidarity by understanding that we may be physically different as women and men, but we hold common hopes and that is, we all want to move in the same direction - towards a better future for our children and our grandchildren.

Joining hands and all that other mushy stuff, will never mean a dominant group dictating analysis or forms of struggles to the subordinated group. That will be simply reproducing the already existing ways of relating which are clearly unacceptable. That is the sort of "solidarity" we do not need.

There have been numerous debates about sexism in Kenya. On one end of the spectrum, we've heard how some of our politicians reduced the fight against the violation of women rights in all spheres of life to somehow an exercise in affirmative action; that was based solely on the desire by our wide-eyed politicians to win women votes on the cheap in our last general elections.

Affirmative action is an important process in dealing with the marginalization of women. I do agree with you that is not the only needed action. It is true that when it suits Kenyan and other politicians they do manipulate and appropriate women's oppression to serve their own interests. The numerous debates on sexism in Kenya have also included women and some men who are acutely aware of the need to infuse a feminist analysis into struggles against all forms of oppression.

On the other end, we've heard the likes of Einstein, Kathure and Fanyamambo use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the gap between the two sexes, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend women and men alike.

Whatever. Don't lump Fanyamambo and me with you. You used sexist epithets we didn't. In fact, we called you on it and then you started flipping.

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of the above persons right here on Jukwaa that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know them to be an occasionally fierce critic of Kenyan domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever notice them write remarks on Jukwaa that could be considered controversial while I participated in those very discussions? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of their views regarding sexism? No, I didn’t – instead I chose either to be partisan in my comments or succumbed to cowardice and said nothing at all.

For me, It is very problematic that we can agree in outlook and positions on so many critical issues affecting our shared county while simultaneously disagreeing on others that are interlocked with the issues on which we agree. How is it that politicized men can come to a clear understanding of other forms of oppression yet be so invested in misogyny. Perhaps it has lots to do with how implicated men are in benefiting from a patriarchal arrangement as well as their psychoanalytic indoctrination into the hating of women and the female principle.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren't simply controversial. They weren't simply some Jukwaaist effort to speak out against the trivialisation of the fight against sexism. Instead, they expressed a profoundly correct view of the fight against sexism in Kenya - a view that sees sexism as endemic and as such should be fought against with all the might that all Kenyans have at their disposal. Trivialising this fight will get Kenya no where.

Oh please einstein, spare us. If you wish to support women in our struggles against domination then you will have to take direction from women. No patronizing of the sort that we have seen in working with whites in anti-racist movements. Sexism is endemic which is why Fanny mambo and Kathure are not screaming, "the sky is falling" while in fact it aint. When it comes to crimes and atrocities committed against women by men through the centuries men have a lot to answer for. In every patriarchal society the sky done fall a long time ago. We are just waiting for the sun and moon to follow suit.

Knowing many Jukwaaists would either rather scream “crucify him, crucify him!!” or rather not stand up to be counted (and many Kenyans are notorious for this), and given my stand on this issue and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation about trivializing the fight against sexism are not enough.

Women will be the judges of whether you act in solidarity with us or not. You don't have to enunciate. As are many oppressed groups we long for solidarity and we can spot it anywhere.

The amazing thing about some Jukwaaists is the speed with which they are ready to condemn their fellow Jukwaaists against some perceived wrongs but at the same time conveniently forget that they have committed those very same wrongs right here on Jukwaa! I challenge those of you who are quick to throw stones at me to allow me to carry out a quick search on your posts right here on Jukwaa and other forum in which you have participated to see just how much filth you have been spewing all over the cyberspace! Please remember that the fight against sexism is not going to be won on a contest platform in which the juries try to determine the winner on the basis of how many stones you managed to throw at your perceived enemy, on the contrary, it will be won by a concerted effort by both sexes to tackle the issue head on! Sideshows will help no one in this fight!

Even as we agree on some issues we must hold each other to account. You can call me on any of my postings. I am aware that you noted one I had made in response to Kamalet right after the rigged elections. You were being disingenuous in pulling out that particular posting, because you left out the insults that he had thrown at me and to which I was responding. All of humanity must be involved in the freeing of women and girls. However, it will be women at the vanguard of this particular struggle. You draw analogies with Obama's take on race and racism to sexism. Think about how inappropriate it would be for white folks to dictate to people of colour on how to proceed with the anti-racist struggle. This does not mean that we do not welcome your views. It does however mean that since we have the lived experience of being dominated by men, we are most likely in the best position to strategize against this particular form of dominance.

On that score, I can no more disown Kathure than I can disown my very self. I can no more disown Fanyamambo than I can all the Jukwaaists who read all this non-sense right here on Jukwaa, but decided to turn a blind eye to it. Some Jukwaaists will see this as an attempt on my part to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. You can dismiss me as a crank or a demagogue.

It is actually okay to say sorry. To take responsibility for ones mistakes. It actually displays a grounded man whose ego is not dependent on a macho pose that never concedes.

But sexism is an issue that I believe Kenya cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that people like myself, Kathure and Fanyamambo did - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

einstein do you really think that we amplify the negative? If we were to actually display the filth of patriarchy even you would start to see just how truly grotesque this social construct is.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few days reflect the complexities of sexism in Kenya that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges that face our nation.

know for a fact that many of those at the receiving end of sexism will not walk away nor retreat but will continue to wade through the waters just like Sojourner Truth.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, "The past isn't dead and buried. In fact, it isn't even past." We do not need to recite here the history of injustices as they partain to our country. But we do need to remind ourselves that many of the disparities that exist in Kenya today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of sexism. Yap, brutal legacy. On this we concur.

And perhaps it would have been imprudent of Obama to "recite here the history of injustices" but he has the smarts to know that history is what drives today.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven't fixed them 45 years after independence, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today's female and male students. Why is it that in the developed countries both sexes are allowed to learn together without compromising the quality of education?

Actually, within the context of a sexist society, I could make a feminist argument for girls only schools. Sometimes affirmative action involves removing subordinate groups from the midst of dominant groups in order to create a "safe" space for them. This is the argument that the black community here in Toronto has recently used to successfully secure a black focused school. Most white people were appalled and spoke passionately about segregation and what a bad thing it is; neglecting that segregation happens all the while in integrated schools where whiteness is synonymous with being human all with a smile and a hand shake. Having said that, I could also make a case for co-ed schools within the context of an anti-sexist framework.

Legalized discrimination - where women were prevented, often through outdated and unwritten traditional laws, from owning property, or loans - meant that women cannot amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between men and women in our country, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today's urban and rural communities. A lack of economic opportunity among women, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one's family, contributed to the erosion of many a Kenyan families - a problem that will never be solved, unless we address the issue of sexism squarely. This is the reality in which most Kenyan women and men of his generation grew up. Most of us came of age at a time when sexism is still the law of the land and opportunity is systematically constricted. What's remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many women overcame and still do overcome the odds; how many were and are able to make a way out of no way for the benefit of the future generation.

It is correct to point out that both women and men face an uphill battle in Kenya. Both groups face issues of living in dire poverty. What needs to be understood is the gendered ways in which this realtiy unfolds.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the Kenyan Dream, there were many women and men who didn't make it - those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination.

Such as the thousands of Kenyan women, girls and boys who are dead maimed and traumatized at the hands of grown men.

That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations - those young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those women who did make it, questions of sexism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the women of Kathure’s and Fanyamambo’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of male co-workers or men-friends. But it does find voice in the cyberspace or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to garner votes along sexist lines, or to make up for a politician's own failings. Wasn’t gender made a campaign issue in our last disgraced general elections?

“…the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear ..." Where are they to go when they are the experiences of the present? Women talk about their experiences of surviving under patriarchy all the time. The rage is palpable and believe me it isn’t just Kathure’s rage. Do you think that blacks carry rage in the USA? Gender should always be a campaign issue but it should never be an opportunistic tool used by politicians. If a politician raises genuine issues around gender, that look at the difficulties faced and offers up solutions, then we will welcome such dialogue. This may surprise you, but Fannyamambo and I belong to different generations. The exciting thing is that Kenyan women across generations are working together.

And occasionally it finds voice in the cyberspace. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger on Jukwaa cyberspace simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in our lives occurs in cyberspace. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the Kenyan community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the sexes.

Ah, the notion of anger. Anger is a valid emotion that we all feel at different points in our lives.

There is a way in which dominant groups dismiss people from subordinated groups if they express anger and rage at the ways they are treated. This only serves to put the oppressor groups at the centre again while pushing the subordinated to the margins all over again. Many white women cried and cried in agencies where I have worked once they were confronted with their racist ways by women of color. They never stop and think about how women of color feel on a daily basis when they have to put up with their crap. I agree that anger and may I add rage can be all consuming. But once harnessed and targeted in the right direction it is a useful emotion that can enable and empower us to act in positive life altering ways.
In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the male community. Most working- and middle-class Kenyans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their sex. As far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs handed over to women in the name of affirmative action. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which the dreams of women come at the expense of that of men. So when they are told to give women an equal chance; when they hear that a women is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Kenyan men are privileged on account of their gender. However, we must understand that masculinities are not all equal. So obviously working class and peasant men are penalized on account of class, but in relation to women of the same class they are privileged. Further, when dealing with women privileged on account of class, men can still deploy weapons such as rape against. Remember what happened Njeri wa Ngugi? Men who suffer, (as do women) under the economic conditions that obtain in Kenya need to know who their real enemies are. Their enemies are not the women and girls and little boys around them. Their enemies are not their neighbors who belong to a different ethnic group. Raising men’s consciousness around these facts would be great activist work for men who are committed to women’s equality.

Like the anger within the women community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for many generations. Talk about affirmative action started towards the end of the Moi regime, the Kibaki regime used it in the last general elections as a campaign tool and so did Raila. These politicians routinely exploited the idea of affirmative action for their own electoral ends. Many of our politicians and Kenya’s human rights activists have built their entire careers unmasking claims of sexism while dismissing legitimate discussions of injustices caused by sexism and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse sexism. Just as women anger often proved counterproductive, so have these male resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the upper and middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Kenyan society dominated by lobbyists and special interests groups; economic policies that favour men over women. And yet, to wish away the resentments of women, to label them as misguided or even sexist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the divide between the both sexes, and blocks the path to understanding.

There is no such thing as reverse discrimination or reverse sexism. Claims that women too are sexist against men are absurd and I will not waste my time responding any further to them.

This is where we are right now. It's a sexist stalemate we've been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, women or men, I have never been so naive as to believe that we can solve the problem of sexism in a single day. But I’m of the conviction that working together we can move beyond some of our old sexism wounds, and that in fact we have no choice if we are to continue on the path of a more perfect Kenya.

Sure we can move on but women and men must understand their social locations and act accordingly. For the Kenyan community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of a Kenyan life. But it also means binding our particular grievances - for better and fair Kenya - to the larger aspirations of all Kenyans -- the woman struggling to feed her children, the man whose been laid off to give way for affirmative action etc.

Yo Einstein, I am really curious to see numbers on how many Kenyan men are unemployed because women were the beneficiaries of affirmative action. Any time the lives of the most downtrodden in society are uplifted everyone else benefits. Women raise boys and girls, look after elders female and male, and assist partners, brothers and other males in their worlds. So, affirmative actions programs designed to right historical wrongs never take away from those who received unearned privilege in the first place!

And it means taking full responsibility for own lives - by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

It is men who need to learn to be nurturing and relational and to spend time with their children. You know change some poo diapers and all, eh?

But the profound mistake we make when we speak against sexism is not that we speak against sexism in our society. It's that we speak as if Kenya was a static society; as if no progress has been made; as if this country is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen - is that Kenya can change. That is the true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope - just count the number of women in parliament this time around and imagine the number that will possibly become ministers! Surely, we have come a long way, but in that journey we have made huge strides!

Any progress that Kenyan women have made did not come about because men conceded rights to us. As Lillian Allen would say, “…no change without struggle, no one in power ain’t giving up nothing”. In the women community, the path to a more perfect Kenya means acknowledging that what ails the women community does not just exist in the minds of women; that the legacy of discrimination are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Kenyans to realise that the dreams of women do not have to come at the expense of dreams of men; that investing in the education of both women and men will ultimately help all Kenyans to prosper. In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well. For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. Or we can decide as Kenyans to tackle the monster of sexism head on. We can do that. >>[/quote]

Kathure or any other feminist raising issues of misogyny no matter how unpalatable it may be to folks does not in any way shape or form breed a politics of division, conflict nor cynicism. In fact my passionate words are redemptive words for many women who would not dare speak as I do. I too have benefited from the voices and actions of uncompromising women in their quest to help build a world where all people are equal in the home, as well as the public sphere.

Last Edit: Mar 25, 2008 4:04:10 GMT 3 by Deleted

job
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Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 25, 2008 4:53:01 GMT 3

Post by job on Mar 25, 2008 4:53:01 GMT 3

Einstein is playing smart Aleck here,......so far, he's effectively chosen to distract from the real offensive word he used - "biatch" ...instead arguing the femininity of secondary words like 'mama', 'lioness' and such....wacha tu

He's also skirted around his sweeping label of FM & KK as "nothing but crybabies" (see the connection between women and babies?)

Notice too, we are yet to read Einstein's original views on sexism - not some transplanted article plagiarising Obama's speech on racism......

Einstein anasema.......quoted directly....

" Please let us debate this issue from tomorrow onwards on the thread titled "Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa" and see where we differ! I ain't your enemy and you will always remain my sister even in disagreements!!!! "

Ok Einstein, let's get your OWN contribution to the debate on sexism Sir! Don't forget to explain your fantastic use of the words...biatch, crybabies, and such.

Job

Last Edit: Mar 25, 2008 5:08:42 GMT 3 by job

fanyamambo Full Member Posts: 125	Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 25, 2008 16:40:24 GMT 3 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by fanyamambo on Mar 25, 2008 16:40:24 GMT 3 Like Job, I await Einsteins take on sexism - I have been waiting for it to emerge somewhere in this thread he started.

genius Senior Member Posts: 460	Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 25, 2008 19:06:00 GMT 3 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by genius on Mar 25, 2008 19:06:00 GMT 3 Enyewe Einstein, this one you are not going to win. even if you were the real Einstein, I do not see how you can wiggle out of this one. Just call it off. counter them on other threads.

einstein
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Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 26, 2008 0:39:41 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 26, 2008 0:39:41 GMT 3

First of all let me state from the start that I will not allow this debate on sexism to degenerate into a contest match between Einstein on the one side and anybody else on the other. When I started this thread, it was not with the purpose to justify whatever position I may have taken elsewhere to condemn the trivialisation of the fight against sexism. Rather, this thread was started in the spirit of having realised the need right here on Juwaa that we urgently and frankly have to talk about SEXISM. Adongo, who challenged me to start the thread stated as much in his first post on this thread.

So when I read posts like this << Enyewe Einstein, this one you are not going to win. even if you were the real Einstein, I do not see how you can wiggle out of this one. Just call it off. counter them on other threads.>> For God’s sake, I’m not in some beauty contest against anyone. I simply write my views and either you like them or you don’t! People should stop behaving like cheerleaders of some third rate sports club.

And as if comments like those are not enough a Jukwaaist challenges me further thus << Ok Einstein, let's get your OWN contribution to the debate on sexism Sir! Don't forget to explain your fantastic use of the words...biatch, crybabies, and such.>>. I do not know how this will help us on this discussion. But Job, if you really want me to do it, I will definitely do it and leave it to OO to take the steps he deems fit. I bet this is the direction you want to drive me to. If it makes you happy, I will do it.

The prelude that I first posted was not meant to be used against me in this discussion. Instead, it was meant to underscore the urgency with which we need to talk about SEXISM!

Thus, if I must recant what I have written here in connection to this topic before, then some Jukwaaists must also do the same. Apparently some people are still waiting with abated breath for Einstein to make his OWN and ORIGINAL contribution to the debate instead of <<some transplanted article plagiarising Obama's speech on racism>>. Honestly, what NEWS do some of you expect in this discussion? The triple OPPRESSION of RACISM, SEXISM, AND CLASS is as old a topic as mankind itself, so much so that we can only borrow a leaf from those societies which have “successfully” fought them.

To come to Jukwaa everyday waiting to read about “the new wheel invented by Einstein on the fight against SEXISM” is simply not being genious!

Now, this is my take about the fight on SEXISM.

First and foremost, we must agree that SEXISM is a vice that affects BOTH women and men negatively, albeit, not in EQUAL measure. It is not purely a problem typical to women. Like Afrigun rightly pointed out, the violence that was triggered off by our last disgraced general elections, did not EXCLUSSIVELY affect the Kenyan women. It affected children (and by the way can someone explain to me why we keep on lumping children together with women when we discuss sexism: according to me, children face an entirely different problem from that of women and as such deserve a separate mention) and men too! Didn’t we see men also in the camps for the IDP? Didn’t one man have to ride his bicycle all the way from Nakuru to Kisumu because there was no space for him in some overcrowded means of transport out of the trouble zone? Was the right of this one man less than that of the women and children to whom he volunteered his place? Couldn’t we be talking a different story today had the man been killed on his way to Kisumu?

And as if all that is not enough, the violence in Kenya is being attributed solely to men, because they happened to be in power. Why do we forget so fast the conspiracy of some of our powerful women associated with the powers that were, in directly contributing to the sufferings of fellow WOMEN, CHILDREN and MEN just before the elections? Didn’t some of these women fly all over the country in support of their preferred candidate delivering sermons on mountain tops to the effect that some communities are NOT able to lead? And these are the very women you are asking me to treat with respect? Please!!!

Hence, I come back to what I believe is the fundamental way out of this problem. Women and men alike, have to join hands in fighting this fight. Kathure and Fanyamambo might be really tough women in the real life situation, but they will sooner or later discover that without involving the men in this fight, they will be doing Kenya as a nation a great disservice on this score.

I happen to live in a European country where women have come very far in this fight. They have not completely won the fight, but this is one country where you cannot look down upon women and get away with it. I happen to live in this country for some time now and that time I have leant a lot how far they have come. The women in this country started with that fight even before Einstein’s father or mother was born. Neither do I believe that the parents of Kathure and Fanyamambo and many Jukwaaists were! What I noticed is that they involved the very same men in that fight right from the start.

This country is called Germany. This is probably one of the few countries worldwide where the language has been used as a powerful tool, amongst other tools, to create awareness about the position and role of women and men in the society.

I will just provide a few examples and leave it there for today. In the German language you have to use the exact feminine word (when addressing a female) and the exact masculine word (when referring to a male) and nothing in between.

For example:

The word “customer” as used in English refers to both a female and male customer. In German, a female customer has to be addressed as “Kundin” as opposed to a male customer “Kunde”. A female President is referred to as “Presidentin” and the male one as “President”. It would really offend Mrs Merkel should one address her as “Kanzler” because that is the male form for “chancellor”. She is addressed as “Kanzlerin Merkel”. Examples are endless: A male student is “Student” while a female one is “Studentin”. A female fellow student is “Kommilitonin” as oppossed to a male fellow student “Kommiliton”.

Personally, I think this has led to both the sexes in Germany being more conscious about each other! While we might not be able to do anything about the English language since it not ours, I think our Kiswahili is not so bad, not unless we start giving words like “mama” demeaning meanings!

And now some links that may prove useful:

www.worc.ac.uk/CHIC/suffrage/document/move184a.htm

www.workersliberty.org/node/9219

www.senzacensura.org/public/arkivio/q21_e.htm

Last Edit: Mar 26, 2008 1:56:32 GMT 3 by einstein

genius
Senior Member

Posts: 460

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 26, 2008 10:19:42 GMT 3

Post by genius on Mar 26, 2008 10:19:42 GMT 3

well Einstein, thanks for another second-hand argument based on links to other peoples web articles.
maybe you can also give us a link to the German experience in using the word 'biatch'.

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1204990022

you are entittled to your views and have every right to put them across in any forum. but you cannot be allowed to use coarse language in a public forum like this. it would be wise of you to withdraw some of the statements you have made w.r.t this topic.

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 27, 2008 0:08:42 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Mar 27, 2008 0:08:42 GMT 3

Kathure,

I respond as follows:

<<Except that this constitution embedded patriarchy and misogyny as well as other forms of exclusion into its heart.>>

Now that the Kenyan political landscape has actually positively changed despite the agonies that many Kenyans still go through after the disputed elections, don’t you see a chance for women to take their destiny in their own hands? For example, our outdated constitution is going to be rewritten a fresh. Doesn’t this give the women and all the disadvantaged Kenyan minorities the chance to correct the past wrongs?

What interests me most in this issue, what are the Kenyan women doing currently to make sure that they are allowed to actively participate in the rewriting of the constitution as major stake holders? What are exactly your plans?

<<Joining hands and all that other mushy stuff, will never mean a dominant group dictating analysis or forms of struggles to the subordinated group. That will be simply reproducing the already existing ways of relating which are clearly unacceptable. That is the sort of "solidarity" we do not need. >>

When I talk of joining hands, I mean, for example, sitting down with the so called dominant group to agree on the way forward beneficial to both groups. Or are you going to dictate terms on what you want and take nothing less? Do you still remember how those with vested interests scuttled our desire to get a modern constitution responsive to the needs of every Kenyan? They did this to maintain the status quo. So just how do you plan to push through the whole women agenda this time round? Will you settle for half a loaf which is supposedly better that none at all this time? You talk about the sort of solidarity that you do not need. Do you already have in place the kind of solidarity required for this fight?

<<For me, It is very problematic that we can agree in outlook and positions on so many critical issues affecting our shared county while simultaneously disagreeing on others that are interlocked with the issues on which we agree. How is it that politicized men can come to a clear understanding of other forms of oppression yet be so invested in misogyny. Perhaps it has lots to do with how implicated men are in benefiting from a patriarchal arrangement as well as their psychoanalytic indoctrination into the hating of women and the female principle.>>

Please Kathure, I do not hate you like I already said elsewhere. You will never be my enemy. And neither do I hate women. I do not think I benefit from any patriarchal arrangement. My dad took all his kids to school without favour, both the girl-child and the boy one. I did not experience any discrimination in my family as far as both sexes are concerned. My mama on her part delegated the kitchen chores and any other duties amongst us equally. To this end, those who took their education seriously made it and those who did not, didn’t. I have never hated any woman due to any indoctrination due to my father or simple male chauvinism.

You talked about GBV. I hate to imagine what a woman who slaps a man in public would do to that very man in the privacy of their home! GBV is bad whether practiced by a man or woman! It is in this light that you must understand my anger at such actions regardless of whether GBV is committed by a man or woman.

<<Oh please einstein, spare us. If you wish to support women in our struggles against domination then you will have to take direction from women. No patronizing of the sort that we have seen in working with whites in anti-racist movements. Sexism is endemic which is why Fanny mambo and Kathure are not screaming, "the sky is falling" while in fact it aint. When it comes to crimes and atrocities committed against women by men through the centuries men have a lot to answer for. In every patriarchal society the sky done fall a long time ago. We are just waiting for the sun and moon to follow suit.>>

No, no! I do not think you are being fair here. You are patronising in your attitude. I do not think that I have to take direction only from women in order to get my solidarity with them blessed. I take direction from any source that I believe will help me achieve my goal. This can be from women and men!

<<Women will be the judges of whether you act in solidarity with us or not. You don't have to enunciate. As are many oppressed groups we long for solidarity and we can spot it anywhere.>>

Then go ahead and judge me. I only hope you will be fair in your judgement!

<<Even as we agree on some issues we must hold each other to account. You can call me on any of my postings. I am aware that you noted one I had made in response to Kamalet right after the rigged elections. You were being disingenuous in pulling out that particular posting, because you left out the insults that he had thrown at me and to which I was responding. All of humanity must be involved in the freeing of women and girls. However, it will be women at the vanguard of this particular struggle. You draw analogies with Obama's take on race and racism to sexism. Think about how inappropriate it would be for white folks to dictate to people of colour on how to proceed with the anti-racist struggle. This does not mean that we do not welcome your views. It does however mean that since we have the lived experience of being dominated by men, we are most likely in the best position to strategize against this particular form of dominance.>>

If I was wrong on you expressing a sexist attitude towards Kamale, then I apologise. But please let us then read the whole post to see what transpired between you and Kamale. May be I missed something.

<<know for a fact that many of those at the receiving end of sexism will not walk away nor retreat but will continue to wade through the waters just like Sojourner Truth.>>

I hope to be counted amongst them sojourners!

<<There is no such thing as reverse discrimination or reverse sexism. Claims that women too are sexist against men are absurd and I will not waste my time responding any further to them.>>

If we can have reverse racism, what makes you think there is no such thing as reverse sexism. I think, this is the nut you gotta crack! Think about some of those upper class super-cat women worrying about their jobs being taken over by men! At some point, the whole sexism saga develops into a vicious cycle!!

<<Yo Einstein, I am really curious to see numbers on how many Kenyan men are unemployed because women were the beneficiaries of affirmative action. Any time the lives of the most downtrodden in society are uplifted everyone else benefits. Women raise boys and girls, look after elders female and male, and assist partners, brothers and other males in their worlds. So, affirmative actions programs designed to right historical wrongs never take away from those who received unearned privilege in the first place!>>

I honestly do not have those statistics, but I hope you can imagine how many boys miss a place to study in some Kenyan Universities just because the University cut-off point for girls is lower that that for men! Reverse sexism my sister!

<<Kathure or any other feminist raising issues of misogyny no matter how unpalatable it may be to folks does not in any way shape or form breed a politics of division, conflict nor cynicism. In fact my passionate words are redemptive words for many women who would not dare speak as I do. I too have benefited from the voices and actions of uncompromising women in their quest to help build a world where all people are equal in the home, as well as the public sphere.>>

Then, let’s go ahead and build a world everyone calls home!

Last Edit: Mar 27, 2008 0:14:58 GMT 3 by einstein

Deleted
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Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Mar 29, 2008 6:22:30 GMT 3

Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2008 6:22:30 GMT 3

Widow ejected over political stand

Published on March 29, 2008, 12:00 am

By Jack Nduri

A widow has been ejected from her home for allegedly not supporting an in-law in the General Election.

Millicent Adhiambo Odhiambo, 33, has spent nights in the cold with her three children in the last three months.

Her tribulations began January 17, when three brothers of her late husband accused her of not supporting one of them to defend his civic seat.

"On that day, my three in-laws summoned me, saying they had two issues to discuss. First, they wanted to relocate me to my own home and secondly, they questioned my alleged failure to support one of them for councillorship," she told The Saturday Standard in Oyugis Town, on Friday.

After the meeting her in-laws told her to leave the homestead and the whole family disowned her.

The brothers mobilised other family members and burnt her house, before locking the gates. "My goats, chicken and a parcel of land measuring quarter of an acre were grabbed by my in-laws. They have maintained that they have connections, meaning that nobody can help me, that I should forget I was ever married in the family," she said, amid sobs. Her husband John Odhiambo Odida, died six years ago, and left her with three children. She has now been forced to seek refuge among friends and neighbours with her children.

The children aged between six and 15 years have also been suspended from a primary school where one of their uncles is the head teacher.

Mr Samuel Awuor, the Kawour location chief, said he had referred the issue to Kabondo DO, Mr Jeremiah Ratunka.

"I tried to resolve the matter, but the suspects engaged some dangerous youth who have even threatened me with death," he said.

Oyugis OCS, Mr Mohamed Bakuli promised to arrest the suspects after Adhiambo recorded a statement, with the police.

www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143984001&cid=159

.
Abusers hide behind culture

Published on March 29, 2008, 12:00 am

By Patrick Muriungi

It was the most horrific attack on a woman in recent times.

Isabella Kanyua Mugambi, 28, vividly recalls the day her brother-in-law severed her hands with a panga.

Ms Isabella Kanyua Mugambi recuperates at Meru General hospital.
But it is the reason he gave for the attack that was more bizarre. The man claimed that Kanyua was more hardworking than him, "which is against Meru traditions".

The suspect, who has since been charged with attempted murder and inflicting grievous bodily harm on his sister-in-law, is in remand prison.

And Kanyua is still hospitalised, waiting to be fitted with artificial hands donated by a Good Samaritan. The philanthropist donated the limbs after reading the victim’s story in the press.

She is expected to be transferred to a Nairobi Hospital where the limbs will be fitted.

Although Kanyua is happy at the gesture, she is still saddened by what her own brother-in-law did to her.

In a similar case, a woman had her hands severed by her husband in Maua three months ago over alleged unfaithfulness.

Soon after this, another man beat up his wife savagely, leaving her for dead in Central Imenti. His excuse was that the victim was unfaithful and did not respect him "as required by Meru traditions".

In most cases, abusers seem to hide behind culture and traditions, which regard women as second-rate human beings.

The requirement that a woman be always answerable to a man is the major reason violence has skyrocketed in Meru. Investigation into the causes of many domestic violence incidents in the region reveals accusations of infidelity, backward traditions and deep-rooted male chauvinism. Most incidents are reported in Meru North and Tharaka, where miraa (khat) chewing is a tradition.

Men also seem to believe in the old tradition that the only way to correct a wife is through a thorough beating.

This has led to family break-ups, leaving children with no one to look after them. It is also becoming tricky for law enforcers, who are faced with the option of hauling errant husbands to jail and leaving children with no one to bring them up. This was illustrated recently when Meru Chief Magistrate, J R Karanja, found himself playing the role of a marriage counsellor in a domestic violence case.

The magistrate spent an hour advising the couple to reconcile for the sake of their two children.

With the man in custody for beating his wife, the woman had been left to fend for the children alone.

Charles Mbogori had spent several months in custody for causing grievous harm to his wife, Mary.

While he had initially maintained innocence, when the hearing came up last month, the suspect pleaded guilty. He admitted that he broke his wife’s hands with a piece of wood while "trying to discipline her".

He pleaded for forgiveness, saying he and his wife did casual labour to feed their family. He claimed that he had learnt that their two children aged three and four were suffering a lot.

But his wife would hear none of the pleas. She informed the court that the man was a habitual abuser.

"Your husband is repentant and has promised not to mistreat you again. Are you ready to forgive him so you can look after your children together?" the magistrate asked her. Mary said she wanted Mbogori to stay in custody a little longer to learn two lessons: that he should never batter her again or abandon his responsibilities.

Legal dilemma

She also said her husband had been having an extra-marital affair. Her husband assaulted her when she asked him about the affair.

Saying that it was unlawful for Mbogori to beat his wife under the guise of disciplining her, Karanja asked families from both sides to leave the court so he could resolve the issue for the children’s sake.

This is the dilemma many courts face. Is it proper to release a wife batterer so he can take care of his children? Should justice take its course and let the guilty face the full force of the law?

Mr Charles Kariuki, Law Society of Kenya Mt Kenya branch treasurer and Meru Bar Association organising secretary, says the area records the highest number of domestic violence cases in Kenya.

"Meru courts handle a minimum of 100 domestic violence cases annually," says Kariuki. He said the cases involve murders, assault, rape and incest. He says sometimes, domestic violence arises from civil cases on divorce, separation, children upkeep or fight over property.

"The only place that comes close to Meru in domestic violence is Kisii," says Kariuki.

He blames the Meru violence on cultures and traditions.

The lawyer says: "Meru culture, which says that the man owns the family property, occasionally ignites fights. This is especially when the wife is hardworking but the man denies her a say over the joint property.

"In many instances, you will find the husband attacking the wife if she questions his decision to sell property. Sometimes the woman is beaten to death."

Kariuki says there are numerous cases of violence over land disputes. The advocate says family members fight over land belonging to the parents, resulting in serious injuries and deaths.

Meru Prison, says Kariuki, has about 1,000 inmates, 70 per cent of whom are assault suspects, who fought with family members.

Kariuki further says violence has been linked to miraa chewing in Meru North District. Miraa is widely grown in Ntonyiri, Igembe, and parts of Tigania, where violence cases are numerous.

Ms Kanyua is consoled by Mr Steve Ringera, a local leader, and a relative. Pictures: Reuben Githinji
The advocate says the bar association has been trying to sensitise locals on the need to seek justice instead of resorting to physical violence. Igembe Officer Commanding Police Division, Mr Morris Kiplagat, agrees that land disputes spark off domestic scuffles, which, sometimes, end tragically.

Kiplagat says miraa, regarded as the green gold of the region, leads to many cases of domestic violence. This is especially when a family member plucks the leaves without consent. A few grammes of the leaves can fetch between Sh150 and Sh200, depending on the type.

Thus, joking around with the plant can end one’s his life. On several cases, people have been killed for stealing miraa.

In some areas, the farmers have passed unwritten laws that if one is caught stealing miraa, his or her hand is chopped off as a warning to others.

Kiplagat also blames domestic violence on illicit brews. He says the station handles about 20 cases of domestic

einstein do you need more evidence that men oppress women or you think that these examples are anomalies?

Here is the link so you can see the woman live live.

www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143983979&cid=259

Last Edit: Mar 29, 2008 16:07:50 GMT 3 by Deleted

Deleted
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Posts: 0

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 2, 2008 6:37:03 GMT 3

Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 6:37:03 GMT 3

Sorry for boring all those who think consciously or otherwise that the struggle for women's rights is low politics.

In any case, speaking of male hegemony. Check this story out. All too common although in varying forms. And watch the men go on about the woman under attack. I just feel for those two women involved in the drama. And the man? He gets to be the king in absentia.

myvideos.africast.tv/video/9429b4ab-f458-4681-8796-9a3100f77a6b.htm

kamalet
Vintage Member

Posts: 8,659

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 2, 2008 9:40:37 GMT 3

Post by kamalet on Apr 2, 2008 9:40:37 GMT 3

A really big broohaha aboiut nothing. Sexism and many other 'isms' are languages of political correctness gone all wrong.

So it started with a poster call Hillary Clinton "this mama" and some one took offense. Then earlier someone called Lucy Kibaki a "biatch" and all hell broke loose!

According to wikipedia, Sexism is commonly considered to be discrimination and/or hatred towards people based on their sex rather than their individual merits, but can also refer to any and all systemic differentiations based on the sex of the individuals.

So is hating on Hillary or Clinton by men sexism? Yes if the hatred is premised only on they being women. But they are politicians so you could say you are hating on them as politicians rather than their gender and the accusation of sexism can be dropped.

There are those who will recall the usage of the word bollocks by radio and TV in the UK where it was considered a profanity ranked at number 8 between 'prick' and 'ar$ehole which was at number 12. But then whilst it originally meant testicals, the language developed further to colloqually give it a different meaning.

Take the word 'biatch' this is black american abuse of the expletive 'sexist slur' referring to women and derived from the female dog name - sexist slur. The word is definitely sexist when used on women as it is intended to pour hatred on them - but have I not heard mean being called 'biatches' on american TV?

Away from offensive expletives, there are milder words such as 'mama' which tend to arouse anger in some women, unless the word is being used to refer to a 'mother' - ladies cannot be 'mamas'!!!!

Soon or later, the following will not be politically correct - 'mjatha' , 'msapere', 'mlunje', mkale or mkao. But we hear these words used every day by people who do not intend to see things tribal. Our political police will tell you that we should stick to 'mkenya'.

Take your pick on how dishonest we are with ourselves...Fcuk!!!! we curse like so don't we all?

job
Vintage Member

Posts: 5,210

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 2, 2008 16:21:36 GMT 3

Post by job on Apr 2, 2008 16:21:36 GMT 3

Another graphic (warning!!!) display of erratic 'societal" mob justice at Kitengela; In this case, the man didn't escape as a "King in absentia" but equally had his human rights violated (just like the woman) by folks who probably do the same thing.

www.kenyanlist.wanderi.com/klist-show-listing.php?id_passed=2466&category_is_chosen=

Last Edit: Apr 2, 2008 16:53:46 GMT 3 by job

Deleted
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Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 2, 2008 19:25:55 GMT 3

Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2008 19:25:55 GMT 3

Ya job,

this is when I can agree with Alexander Eichener in his assertion that Kenyans are a hypocritical society.

Yes the rights of both the woman and the man are violated here.

But remember that Kenyan men are allowed in law to have more than one partner. That is a double standard.

People need to grow up. How pathetic is this. If the woman was having an extra-marital relationship then her partner should have left her if he couldn't stomach that. That after all is the only option women have. Sadly women usually attack the other woman and never the man who made commitments to her.

The example you've posted here speaks to hegemony of the rich and powerful. I say this because rather than ordinary Kenyans attacking those that are really responsible for their misery we turn our frustrations onto each other. The lynching of poor youth and adults who are accused of stealing falls within the same realm. Why not go after those who condemn people to unbearable poverty?

afrigun Senior Member Posts: 321	Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 5, 2008 11:01:45 GMT 3 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by afrigun on Apr 5, 2008 11:01:45 GMT 3 Interesting! Affirmative action for boys! www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727693,00.html

einstein
Vintage Member

Posts: 4,197

Let's Talk About Sexism On Jukwaa Apr 5, 2008 23:11:35 GMT 3

Post by einstein on Apr 5, 2008 23:11:35 GMT 3

Kathure posted

<<Widow ejected over political stand

Published on March 29, 2008, 12:00 am

By Jack Nduri

A widow has been ejected from her home for allegedly not supporting an in-law in the General Election.

Millicent Adhiambo Odhiambo, 33, has spent nights in the cold with her three children in the last three months.

Her tribulations began January 17, when three brothers of her late husband accused her of not supporting one of them to defend his civic seat.

"On that day, my three in-laws summoned me, saying they had two issues to discuss. First, they wanted to relocate me to my own home and secondly, they questioned my alleged failure to support one of them for councillorship," she told The Saturday Standard in Oyugis Town, on Friday.

After the meeting her in-laws told her to leave the homestead and the whole family disowned her.

The brothers mobilised other family members and burnt her house, before locking the gates. "My goats, chicken and a parcel of land measuring quarter of an acre were grabbed by my in-laws. They have maintained that they have connections, meaning that nobody can help me, that I should forget I was ever married in the family," she said, amid sobs. Her husband John Odhiambo Odida, died six years ago, and left her with three children. She has now been forced to seek refuge among friends and neighbours with her children.

The children aged between six and 15 years have also been suspended from a primary school where one of their uncles is the head teacher.

Mr Samuel Awuor, the Kawour location chief, said he had referred the issue to Kabondo DO, Mr Jeremiah Ratunka.

"I tried to resolve the matter, but the suspects engaged some dangerous youth who have even threatened me with death," he said.

Oyugis OCS, Mr Mohamed Bakuli promised to arrest the suspects after Adhiambo recorded a statement, with the police.

www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143984001&cid=159>>

Einstein responds thus:

The story of Millicent Adhiambo Odhiambo is without a shadow of doubt a heart-rending one. But before we give it a SEXIST label, we might need to think again. The question we need to be asking ourselves is “Did her brothers-in-law throw her out of the home simply because they (the brothers-in-law) hate women in general or was there a deeper underlying issue?”

From the story I read, I do not discern a group of brothers who simply out of their hatred for women decide to throw their sister-in-law out of her home due to their hatred for women as such. What I gather rather are a group of siblings using the political stand of Millicent as an excuse to execute their long-term plan of evicting their sister-in-law from their home.

I’m seeing a group of brothers conspiring to grab the little parcel of land their sister-in-law should have rightfully inherited from their deceased brother! If these people were SEXISTS, we could have read somewhere in the story that the brothers have a history of problems with their own wives, their own sisters and a problem with their own MOTHER or WOMEN in general! Unless I have missed something in the story, one cannot draw this conclusion.

This is a typical story of scarce resources having to be shared amongst many. Millicent says "My goats, chicken and a parcel of land measuring quarter of an acre were grabbed by my in-laws. They have maintained that they have connections, meaning that nobody can help me, that I should forget I was ever married in the family," I might be wrong, but I think the dispute revolves around that parcel of land measuring quarter of an acre.

I say so because I have personally been there. And this is my story.

I happen to have been born in a polygamous family. According to their dates of marriage to my father, I have three mothers. Let’s call them MOTHER 1, MOTHER 2 and MOTHER 3 in that order. I’m the one and only child of MOTHER 3 and I’m MALE.

Now, when my dad realized his days on the good earth were numbered, he decided to call ALL his sons back home to show them what they had inherited from him. The inheritance was nothing other than parcels of land. So daddy called all the sons of MOTHER 1 and MOTHER 2 for this purpose. He left me out of the group because at that time I was in the final stages of preparing for my high school exams and I bet he did not intend to interfere with my exam preparations. My brothers were either working or jobless whiling time away at home. So daddy used this occasion to point to my brothers which parcel of land they had inherited from him. In the course of this he also pointed to my brothers which parcel of land belonged to me, so the story goes.

The trouble started when I eventually became of age and wanted to know which parcel of land belonged to me! While my brother from MOTHER 1, on whose hands the administration of my father’s property was left, showed me my supposedly parcel of land, my other brothers from MOTHER 2 objected by saying that parcel of land belonged to my dad’s childless brother who had promised them (brothers from MOTHER 2) that land after they supposedly took care of him in his twilight hours.

According to my brother from MOTHER 1, my dad had talked to his childless brother and both of them agreed that I should inherit my uncle given that he did not have children to inherit him! So when I recently returned to the country from abroad lately to formalise the transfer of the title deed from my deceased uncle’s name to mine, I got a rude shock when my brother from MOTHER 1 took me on a tour of “my parcel of land”, only to see my other brother from MOTHER 2 following us at a dangerous distance with a sharpened “panga” ready to strike at any time!

After my brother from MOTHER 1 had completed his task of showing me the boundaries of my parcel of land, my brother from MOTHER 2 called me aside and told me to ignore what my other brother just told me (please do not ask me how I managed to summon the courage to talk to him with his “panga” on the ready)! According to him, it is my other brothers from MOTHER 1 who had colluded to take my birthright away from me!!

Now, given the above story, I’m also a victim of SEXISM? I do not think so. The moral of both stories simply shows that the people who were supposed to be inherited did not leave behind law binding inheritance procedures in case of disputes!!

The problem in our society, is that we still rely too much in the word of mouth! Had Millicent’s husband put his will down in writing, she would not have been thrown out of the home! Had my father done the same, I would not be today thinking in terms of abandoning ALL my brothers and sisters whom I have known all my life! This is nothing to do with SEXISM, it is all about our beloved ones who left us without taking the trouble to give a clear direction as to who should get what when they are no longer there! Or may be I’m a victim of SEXISM after all!!! Please, let’s leave SEXISM out where there is none!!!!!

I will leave you with this piece to chew: Virginia Wambui Waiyaki Otieno Vs Umira Kager clan of Nyanza Province.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvanus_Melea_Otieno

Last Edit: Apr 5, 2008 23:17:54 GMT 3 by einstein

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