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Post by phil on Jun 3, 2010 11:04:55 GMT 3
Two significant events took place this week regarding Kenya's situation at the ICC in Hague. First; attempts by suspect elements in PNU/ODM to scuttle the investigations by the ICC Prosecutor were nipped in the bud by the hawk-eyed ODM's James Orengo who forced himself into Kenya's delegation to watch over the notorious Attorney General Amos Wako during the just concluded ICC Review Conference held at Speke Resort in Munyonyo, Kampala, on the review of the Rome Statute. ODM's James Orengo, Miguna Miguna and Mutaha Kangu were last minute inclusions into Kenya's delegation to the ICC conference. "My duty is to ensure Kenya does not shift its position or ask for deferral from the ICC. Given the position of the President and the Prime Minister who support ICC, it will be ridiculous and undiplomatic for our country to ask for a deferral,’’ Orengo is quoted as saying before departing for Kampala last week. This was a significant defence of Kenya's victims of post election violence whom Mr. Wako had earlier wanted to short-change through appealing for deferment of ICC investigations into Kenya's world famous PEV. In the end, Mr. Wako was forced to consult Mr. Orengo and eventually make changes to his official conference presentation to reconfirm Kenya's support for the international court. It was a timely intervention by right thinking elements in ODM. Secondly; at the same conference, but in the sidelines, Mr. Ocampo confirmed the worst fears of the masterminds of post election violence in Kenya. Ocampo confirmed that the International Criminal Court will file charges against at least two key suspects behind the post-election violence in Kenya by the end of the year 2010. What this means is that Kenyans will at last know the identities of at least two individuals who were in the Waki envelope. At the same time, the two cases will also serve as a strong deterrent to the cycle of election violence, given Kenyans are gearing up for another transitional election under a new constitution come 2012. And as if to re-emphasize Ocampo's words in Kampala, the ICC has just put up an advert in their website for recruitment of Freelance Field Interpreters to help in the post election violence investigations. The advert on the Court’s website is asking for persons with fluency in Kikuyu, Luhya, Luo, Kalenjin and Swahili to apply. Swahili is Kenya's national language while the rest are the top four major ethnic languages in Kenya. All the five languages are dominant in Central, Rift Valley, Nyanza and Nairobi, where the post-election violence was more prevalent. It is also telling that PNU drew most of its support from Central while ODM was more popular in the rest of the provinces. The advert does not have a submission deadline and has been left open. This may mean that the ICC will be in Kenya for the long haul or as Ocampo put it, make Kenya as an example to the rest of the world that impunity is not an option any more. These two events in the last week are a major step forwards the search for justice for Kenya's long-suffering victims of tribal, land and election violence, especially in Rift Valley province. I can only say thank God for AGENDA 4 . |
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emkei
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Post by emkei on Jun 3, 2010 12:01:32 GMT 3
Poor Phil; Let me guess, Easter province was ODM also? What about North Eastern Province? What about Nairobi province? Why are you desperate Phil to feed Jukwaist with wrong information?  Marketting the dying skunk party?? By the way, was this article of yours really about Ocampo or to tell us Miguna accompanied Orengo to Kampala? Miguna who harped here the other day about wastage of public funds went to Kampala as what? Isn't he not just a coalition advisor to the PM and nothing more?? Ocampo said nothing new and the fellow should just prosecute these suspects and stop holding shows all over like rock musicians. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jun 3, 2010 12:28:31 GMT 3
Poor Phil; Let me guess, Easter province was ODM also? What about North Eastern Province? What about Nairobi province? Why are you desperate Phil to feed Jukwaist with wrong information? Marketting the dying skunk party?? By the way, was this article of yours really about Ocampo or to tell us Miguna accompanied Orengo to Kampala? Miguna who harped here the other day about wastage of public funds went to Kampala as what? Isn't he not just a coalition advisor to the PM and nothing more?? Ocampo said nothing new and the fellow should just prosecute these suspects and stop holding shows all over like rock musicians. You do not have to vomit on every thread. Just start your own where you can say all the nothing you want. OK. |
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emkei
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Post by emkei on Jun 3, 2010 12:49:53 GMT 3
You do not have to vomit on every thread. Just start your own where you can say all the nothing you want. OK. OK Sir. |
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Post by phil on Jun 3, 2010 12:52:17 GMT 3
Bw. Adongo,
It is pointless responding to stuck-records who have set minds formed on such negative stereotype.
It would seem they want to quickly sweep what happened in Kampala last week under the carpet, because they think defecating on this thread, just as they do on all others, with useless and irrelevant propaganda will influence the Kenyan voter to react in a certain way.
Times have changed and it is always evident by the reaction of wananchi whenever the two principals publicly appear together in public - although Mr. 8% always wants to be seen to be in the mix. It is not a secret and it is driving people nuts! Wacha wameze wembe.
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Post by enigma on Jun 3, 2010 13:03:47 GMT 3
Poor Phil; Let me guess, Easter province was ODM also? What about North Eastern Province? What about Nairobi province? Why are you desperate Phil to feed Jukwaist with wrong information? Marketting the dying skunk party?? By the way, was this article of yours really about Ocampo or to tell us Miguna accompanied Orengo to Kampala? Miguna who harped here the other day about wastage of public funds went to Kampala as what? Isn't he not just a coalition advisor to the PM and nothing more?? Ocampo said nothing new and the fellow should just prosecute these suspects and stop holding shows all over like rock musicians. Just a hint: Have you heard of the ''Coalition Management Committee''? Have you heard of the position ''Joint Secretary to the Permanent Committee on the Management of Grand Coalition Affairs''? Do you know what constitutes ''Coalition affairs''? Do you realize that the committee should be an interested party when the ICC is meeting next door in Uganda? Do you still want to know why Miguna was there? |
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emkei
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Post by emkei on Jun 3, 2010 13:11:26 GMT 3
Bw. Adongo, It is pointless responding to stuck-records who have set minds formed on such negative stereotype. It would seem they want to quickly sweep what happened in Kampala last week under the carpet, because they think defecating on this thread, just as they do on all others, with useless and irrelevant propaganda will influence the Kenyan voter to react in a certain way. Times have changed and it is always evident by the reaction of wananchi whenever the two principals publicly appear together in public - although Mr. 8% always wants to be seen to be in the mix. It is not a secret and it is driving people nuts! Wacha wameze wembe. Phil, stop shadow boxing. You alleged ODM aka skunk party won all the other provinces. I have given you 3 provinces and i dare you to table facts that support your allegation. Otherwise, continue fanning Miguna's small ego but be accurate. enigma, You may be right. Miguna may have gone there to try and convince Ocampo that Ruto and other ODM thugs for hire were not fighting for their 'supremo' who benefitted most from the violence. It must be a tough sell. |
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Post by kamalet on Jun 3, 2010 13:15:41 GMT 3
Joint secretary means he is not sole secretary and there is a counterpart! Also being the advisor of the PM on coalition matters means that he serves the interest of ODM and the PM rather than the people of Kenya who pay his salary!
The question of what he has gone to do in Uganda is pertinent in that he has seriously no role in the ICC - and please do not give me the rubbish that he had gone to the Hague with Mutula hence he is eligible!!
The ujinga of sending the ODMorons party to Kampala was that they were not going to aid anything in the debate about neutering the ICC. This was an initiative that also had other countries supporting it rather than getting the ICC meeting to stop Ruto from being prosecuted by ICC!!
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Post by phil on Jun 3, 2010 13:29:58 GMT 3
@kamale - Happy birthday!
AG Wako was clearly going to represent the interests 'National Security' inserters in Kampala. Otherwise what would you say prompted the last minute change to the country's official conference presentation in Kampala, especially after consultations between Orengo and Wako?
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Post by kamalet on Jun 3, 2010 13:41:33 GMT 3
@kamale - Happy birthday! AG Wako was clearly going to represent the interests ' National Security' inserters in Kampala. Otherwise what would you say prompted the last minute change to the country's official conference presentation in Kampala, especially after consultations between Orengo and Wako? Thank you for the wishes! As I said, it was not a Kenyan initiative to scuttle the ICC, as Kenya was just a passenger in that bus singing the praises as any football fan would do. My doubts are as to whether Wako was ever going to convince anyone to follow a stand that is Kenyan led. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 3, 2010 13:45:34 GMT 3
Joint secretary means he is not sole secretary and there is a counterpart! Also being the advisor of the PM on coalition matters means that he serves the interest of ODM and the PM rather than the people of Kenya who pay his salary! The question of what he has gone to do in Uganda is pertinent in that he has seriously no role in the ICC - and please do not give me the rubbish that he had gone to the Hague with Mutula hence he is eligible!! The ujinga of sending the ODMorons party to Kampala was that they were not going to aid anything in the debate about neutering the ICC. This was an initiative that also had other countries supporting it rather than getting the ICC meeting to stop Ruto from being prosecuted by ICC!! Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. |
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Post by politicalmaniac on Jun 3, 2010 20:37:04 GMT 3
Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. Wako is in serious need of a legal chaperon, and I thank Hon Miguna for providing this essential service. Otherwise the PNU camp who wanted to delay delay delay delay may have had the day! He is the most inept clueless AG ever, and is nothing than a lackey for whomever is in power. He has been misused so many times. |
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Post by Titchaz on Jun 4, 2010 1:57:07 GMT 3
Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. Wako is in serious need of a legal chaperon, and I thank Hon Miguna for providing this essential service. Otherwise the PNU camp who wanted to delay delay delay delay may have had the day! He is the most inept clueless AG ever, and is nothing than a lackey for whomever is in power. He has been misused so many times. Hii kelele na ngonjera yote wanapiga, I see one thing and one thing only. Kibaki's Govt WILL NOT HANDOVER THE SUSPECTS OF THE PEV TO THE HAGUE....mark those words. siku njema. |
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Post by sunday on Jun 4, 2010 10:17:19 GMT 3
Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just made my day! Miguna must be driving kamau/emkei nuts. This guy is really getting deep down his nerves, I see something coming next week. Watch this space. Either Kuria (The dude who bust out with the dual citizen saga) will buy three full pages in both Nation and Standard to write a letter and "forward" to Barack Obama and Ochampo, or Kalonzo's poxies will jump into this matter, watch, just watch. |
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Post by enigma on Jun 4, 2010 10:51:34 GMT 3
Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just made my day! Miguna must be driving kamau/emkei nuts. This guy is really getting deep down his nerves, I see something coming next week. Watch this space. Either Kuria (The dude who bust out with the dual citizen saga) will buy three full pages in both Nation and Standard to write a letter and "forward" to Barack Obama and Ochampo, or Kalonzo's poxies will jump into this matter, watch, just watch. The ''deliberately'' ignorant should be lacerated. No qualms. |
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emkei
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Post by emkei on Jun 4, 2010 12:49:56 GMT 3
Needless to say, Wako needed an escort. Just to make sure he did not ''misread'' anything or that the printers at the State Law Office did not develop new fonts. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just made my day! Miguna must be driving kamau/emkei nuts. This guy is really getting deep down his nerves, I see something coming next week. Watch this space. Either Kuria (The dude who bust out with the dual citizen saga) will buy three full pages in both Nation and Standard to write a letter and "forward" to Barack Obama and Ochampo, or Kalonzo's poxies will jump into this matter, watch, just watch. Sunday Onyango and Tiskie Odhiambo make a colourful couple ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by mtumishiman on Jun 4, 2010 14:43:37 GMT 3
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D You just made my day! Miguna must be driving kamau/emkei nuts. This guy is really getting deep down his nerves, I see something coming next week. Watch this space. Either Kuria (The dude who bust out with the dual citizen saga) will buy three full pages in both Nation and Standard to write a letter and "forward" to Barack Obama and Ochampo, or Kalonzo's poxies will jump into this matter, watch, just watch. Sunday Onyango and Tiskie Odhiambo make a colourful couple ;D ;D ;D Me thinks this emkei (MK) is Moses Kuria or are birds of a feather. |
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Post by mank on Jun 7, 2010 6:47:53 GMT 3
I am starting to push my pile of popcorn closer to the TV. This movie is likely to be very interesting.
When I was younger and naive, I always wondered what would happen if a movie went a little further than where it ended ... would the strong man with a bullet in his head survive? Or would he die ... then what? The bad thing is that this is real, no darn movie. And the setting is my country. What really happens at the end of this? Well, I nah wanno miss non of it ... I will stay up for the rest of my life if I have to.ICC to focus on poll chaos hot spots
The International Criminal Court will concentrate its investigations into post- elect violence in areas dubbed theatres of violence by commissions that investigated the chaos.
ICC last week let out on the hot spots its investigators will descend on when The Hague-based facility advertised positions for Gikuyu, Luhya, Dholuo, Kalenjin and Kiswahili translators.
The evidence collected during the investigations will support "two or three cases" ICC Chief Prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo intends to file at The Hague.
A scene during post-election violence. The International Criminal Court is set to investigate places most affected by the mayhem. Photo: File/Standard
Previous reports prepared by the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) and another one by the Waki Commission stated that the "theaters of violence" covered 136 constituencies. Moreno-Ocampo also cited the same statistics when he sought green light for the ICC pre-trial judges to proceed with investigations.
When the ICC judges authorised Moreno-Ocampo on March 30 to launch full-scale investigations on the Kenyan case, they agreed with his submission that the main theatres of violence were Nairobi, Rift Valley, Western, Nyanza, and Coast provinces.
A KNCHR report had also said the regions were either affected directly by the violence or had hosted internally displaced people.
Chaos epicentre
Moreno-Ocampo told the judges the areas mainly affected by the mayhem were slums in Nairobi, some part of Rift Valley, in particular Eldoret, Naivasha, and Nakuru, Western and Nyanza, particularly Kisumu.
The ICC is expected to undertake investigations in these areas and narrow down the evidence to support two cases that Moreno-Ocampo intends to file.
The languages for which the ICC now wants translators who will accompany its investigators, are spoken mainly in the areas mentioned as the epicentres of violence.
Kalenjin is spoken in Rift Valley, which bore the brunt of the post-election violence. Kikuyu is also spoken in Rift Valley, and Central Province, which was affected by the violence, and also hosted IDPs.
Dholuo is spoken in Nyanza and Luhya in Western Province. Both provinces were affected by violence.
When he came to Kenya last month, the ICC chief prosecutor indicated his investigations would be "incident and not suspect-driven".
When he sought the green light to proceed with the Kenya case, Moreno-Ocampo told ICC judges that the violence resulted in 1,133 to 1,220 murders, more than 900 acts of documented rapes and sexual violence, about 350,000 displaced persons, and 3,561 serious injuries.
Majority of the killings – 744 – occurred in the Rift Valley, which was the epicentre of the violence following the disputed December 2007 presidential vote.
The January 1, 2008, arson attack on the Assemblies of God Church in Kiambaa, Eldoret, in which at least 28 people, mostly women and children who had sought refuge, were burnt to death, will be one of the incidents investigators will probe.
Also targeted by investigators is the subsequent January 27 retaliatory attack in Naivasha in which gangs on a mission to revenge the killings in Rift Valley killed 40 people, including a family of nine.
Moreno-Ocampo intends to collect irrefutable evidence on these two incidents to convince judges to issue arrest warrants against politicians and businessmen who allegedly organised them before the end of the year. ICC investigations will also target the police who were accused of using excessive force, including shooting unarmed protestors, to suppress protests.
Independent post-mortems indicated about 405 deaths were caused by gun shot wounds.
Moreno-Ocampo will pursue the veracity of claims that an unofficial ‘shoot-to-kill’ policy was in force to indict top Government officials.
The judges, who sanctioned the probe on a majority vote, were convinced Moreno-Ocampo had substantiated the scale of post-election violence constituted deliberate systematic attacks on the civilian populations.
Presiding judge, Justice Ekaterina Trendafilova and Justice Cuno Tarfusser agreed the atrocities committed constituted crimes against humanity, but Justice Hans-Peter Kaul disagreed.
"This finding is justified on the basis of the alleged number of deaths, documented rapes, displaced persons, and acts of injury, and the geographical location of these crimes, which appears widespread," ruled the judges.
"Some of the crimes which occurred in the context of the proposed incidents were also marked by elements of brutality, for example burning victims alive, attacking places sheltering IDPs, beheadings, and using pangas and machetes to hack people to death," they added.
Moreno-Ocampo identified the first category of attacks as those initiated by groups associated with the Orange Democratic Movement and directed against perceived Party of National Unity supporters.
Summary executions
The second category, he stated, involved retaliatory attacks against opposition supporters deemed responsible for the initial violence.
The rid category is Extra-judicial killings by the police, including summary execution of at least 500 suspected Mungiki members in a Government campaign aimed at the suppression of the gang, alongside the crackdown by security forces on the Sabaot Land Defence Forces.
The evidence that was turned over to the ICC by Kofi Annan and human rights groups cited the involvement of Kalenjin leaders, businessmen, and ODM politicians in planning attacks against perceived PNU sympathisers. Besides, in the lead-up to the 2007 General Election, several ODM politicians reportedly announced in public their determination to evict members of the Kikuyu community.
Similarly, investigators will scour for evidence on the retaliatory attacks planned during meetings organised by PNU politicians and businessmen in Rift Valley, Central, and Nairobi provinces.
The Waki Report made references to two meetings, which were held at a hotel in Naivasha on January 23 and 26, 2008, on the eve of the attacks.
The Waki Commission claimed it had evidence "Government and political leaders in Nairobi, including key office holders at the highest level of Government, may have directly participated in planning of the attacks".
Rift Valley was identified as the scene of initial attacks specifically targeting the non-Kalenjin community and, in particular, Kikuyu and Kisii, for perceived support for PNU.
Evidence Moreno-Ocampo relied on indicated attacks by large groups of raiders who fought in different shifts.
In Kericho, Bureti and Londiani (South Rift), the attackers sent signals before raiding certain people’s homes by telephoning them and giving notices to those alleged to be supporting PNU and were non-Kalenjin.
In Western, the violence mainly targeted the Kikuyu community. In Coast Province, it is alleged the Kikuyu and Meru were the main targets. During the phase of retaliatory violence, Moreno-Ocampo submitted the attacks were directed mainly at non-Kikuyu communities, including Kalenjin, Luo and Luhya who were thought to be ODM supporters.
Evidence showed attackers targeted business premises and residential areas of various villages, burnt down entire houses, and places where victims sought refuge.
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Post by kamalet on Jun 7, 2010 9:52:29 GMT 3
MANK
That is right and make sure you have them in plenty!
Moreno Ocampo has said that he will be going for the masterminds of the PEV. The problem I foresee with a government that is not willing to co-operate is the provision of requisite evidence to convict say someone like Ruto. Anything all those "victims" of the violence can give evidence on against Ruto will be nothing but hearsay - a something that the ICC will not convict anyone of! As for state complicity, many harp on an alleged meeting in Statehouse - now anyone who has ever been there knows the process and this entails a registration process. If state house was actually complicit, then you can be sure that the records would have been destroyed and the likes of KNHCR etc that repeat the allegation would be hard pressed to provide evidence showing otherwise.
So can Ocampo rely on the NSIS to give him evidence? Your guess is as good as mine!
So good old Ocampo can move to nail the suspects, the bigger question is whether he can actually convict them!
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Post by tactician on Jun 7, 2010 10:50:59 GMT 3
MANK That is right and make sure you have them in plenty! Moreno Ocampo has said that he will be going for the masterminds of the PEV. The problem I foresee with a government that is not willing to co-operate is the provision of requisite evidence to convict say someone like Ruto. Anything all those "victims" of the violence can give evidence on against Ruto will be nothing but hearsay - a something that the ICC will not convict anyone of! As for state complicity, many harp on an alleged meeting in Statehouse - now anyone who has ever been there knows the process and this entails a registration process. If state house was actually complicit, then you can be sure that the records would have been destroyed and the likes of KNHCR etc that repeat the allegation would be hard pressed to provide evidence showing otherwise. So can Ocampo rely on the NSIS to give him evidence? Your guess is as good as mine! So good old Ocampo can move to nail the suspects, the bigger question is whether he can actually convict them! Kamalet, Lets not mince bones over here... Fact is that the police indiscriminately shot demonstraters especially in Kisumu. The political responsibility for this lies with Kibaki, Michuki, Saitoti, Gen Ali et al.. Fact also is that GEMA politicians and businessmen organised retaliatory attacks in Nakuru & Naivasha.... Political & criminal enterprise, common wisdom holds, lies with Uhuru etc.... Fact also is that ODM preached a hate campaign and orchestrated civilian violence against GEMA in Nyanza, RV, Western, Nairobi & Coast. Political and criminal responsibility lies with the ODM leadership of Raila, Musalia, Ruto, Balala, Anyang' Nyong'o etc... Let Ocampo come for ALL of these criminals. Anything short of this and it is politics. |
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Post by kamalet on Jun 7, 2010 13:39:04 GMT 3
Kamalet, Lets not mince bones over here... Fact is that the police indiscriminately shot demonstraters especially in Kisumu. The political responsibility for this lies with Kibaki, Michuki, Saitoti, Gen Ali et al.. Fact also is that GEMA politicians and businessmen organised retaliatory attacks in Nakuru & Naivasha.... Political & criminal enterprise, common wisdom holds, lies with Uhuru etc.... Fact also is that ODM preached a hate campaign and orchestrated civilian violence against GEMA in Nyanza, RV, Western, Nairobi & Coast. Political and criminal responsibility lies with the ODM leadership of Raila, Musalia, Ruto, Balala, Anyang' Nyong'o etc... Let Ocampo come for ALL of these criminals. Anything short of this and it is politics. Do you know that I actually agree with all the facts as you have presented them. But as I said the problem is getting convictions against Raila or Balala for preaching hate or Uhuru for fund raising for Mungiki without actual evidence directly linking them to the crimes of murder and rape of other Kenyans. Yes police killed many, but under what circumstances and were there direct instructions to kill. The answer in many people's mouths would be a loud YES, but Ocampo cannot just get a conviction on the basis of the loud Yes from our mouths, he will need the evidence and that my friend is what I am suggesting will be a challenge! |
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Post by enigma on Jun 7, 2010 13:57:28 GMT 3
Kamale,
How do you know there is no evidence? What makes you think its all hearsay?
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Post by tactician on Jun 7, 2010 14:44:07 GMT 3
Kamalet, Lets not mince bones over here... Fact is that the police indiscriminately shot demonstraters especially in Kisumu. The political responsibility for this lies with Kibaki, Michuki, Saitoti, Gen Ali et al.. Fact also is that GEMA politicians and businessmen organised retaliatory attacks in Nakuru & Naivasha.... Political & criminal enterprise, common wisdom holds, lies with Uhuru etc.... Fact also is that ODM preached a hate campaign and orchestrated civilian violence against GEMA in Nyanza, RV, Western, Nairobi & Coast. Political and criminal responsibility lies with the ODM leadership of Raila, Musalia, Ruto, Balala, Anyang' Nyong'o etc... Let Ocampo come for ALL of these criminals. Anything short of this and it is politics. Do you know that I actually agree with all the facts as you have presented them. But as I said the problem is getting convictions against Raila or Balala for preaching hate or Uhuru for fund raising for Mungiki without actual evidence directly linking them to the crimes of murder and rape of other Kenyans. Yes police killed many, but under what circumstances and were there direct instructions to kill. The answer in many people's mouths would be a loud YES, but Ocampo cannot just get a conviction on the basis of the loud Yes from our mouths, he will need the evidence and that my friend is what I am suggesting will be a challenge! kamalet, Look up the meaning of "joint criminal enterprise" in relation to ICC cases. This is what nabbed Bashir, Milosevic etc... same one that would nab Raila, Balala, Uhuru et al |
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Post by mank on Jun 7, 2010 15:30:53 GMT 3
Kamale, Tactician,
The allegations of statehouse hosting meetings with thugs to organize mayhem always sounds a fiction to me ... I wait to see evidence, without which the allegations are useless. Intuitively I just do not see it ... a sitting government plotting with thugs to ignite chaos? Sounds farfetched, but if it is not, I hope we will find out. What did the government stand to gain?
Having not had been following the campaigns of 2007, I am at a disadvantage in terms of trusting that I know what really lead us to the chaos. However, during the chaos, I recall hearing Raila plead with his supporters not to kill the Kisiis, at because those " ...voted for us (meaning for Raila). How much that counts at the ICC, I do not know. In my layman opinion it implicates the man.
I have taken my stings earlier for indicating that in my opinion Mudavadi flagged off the chaos. I still believe Mudavadi has a case to answer - in his pronouncement that Kenyans had elected Raila the president, well before vote counting was over, and further asserting that Kenyans would not accept any alternative result, was a clear blackmail on the nation ... either announce Raila the winner no matter what your counting says, or we are going into chaos. We know what happened. But again I am pointing out what I personally saw to be the ignition of chaos, while my observation only started with the process of tallying of votes.
What we say at Jukwaa will have not implication on Ocampo's case. So, there is no need for anyone to react venomously to anything said here. Corrections, and varried points of view are in order. But stings are foolish ... but I know better to expect none (at Jukwaa).
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Post by Horth on Jun 7, 2010 16:01:02 GMT 3
mank,
I agree with your sentiments about the chaos in 2007/8 and your fears of being roasted here.
Well, it always takes two to fight and in the PEV, there was more than enough blame to go around. Yes, we can all say Kibaki provoked the mess by stealing the elections in broad daylight but the view expressed by Mudavadi before the results were announced did spark a lot of anger.
My feeling is that Ocampo is treading on very thin ice as the evidence to directly implicate either Kibaki or Raila, as the ones most politically responsible, will be very hard to prove in a court of law. I mean, for Raila it's going to be easy to throw Ruto to the sharks as I doubt Ruto had any recordings made ala Githongo, if any meeting even took place. Ditto Kibaki; after Githongo, I won't be surprised if the revenge meeting at Statehouse was held with all members present naked, you know, just to be on the safe side.
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Marketting the dying skunk party??
