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Post by johns on Apr 9, 2006 7:50:31 GMT 3
Alex,
Why dont you put forth those political changes beside one liners which have run out of flavor.Beside you have no business talking about kenyas issues if you still insist on being german or is it dutch or armenian?
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Post by aeichener on Apr 9, 2006 10:14:17 GMT 3
Or Meru, as you have also guessed in the past? As to the brevity of my statements: Kwoguo mûkaamenyaga arathi a maveeni na ciîko irîa mekaga.
Bigmanism and tribalism are often joined, and you make no exception. The important question is what Raila's political issues are, and for what contents he stands; the set of questions that OO has posed here, point into this direction too.
Alexander
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Post by pharlap on Apr 10, 2006 0:26:01 GMT 3
Alex, Why dont you put forth those political changes beside one liners which have run out of flavor.Beside you have no business talking about kenyas issues if you still insist on being german or is it dutch or armenian? Oh so we have germans and armenians here as well? Mmmhhh, what a diverse community jukwaa is. Did some people forfeit their citizenship? Really sad. My friend had to get a visa to go back to kenya recently after living in a foreign country for 7 years! What boulderdash. Permanent resident, yes, citizen, no please. east or west, kenya is home.
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emmo
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Post by emmo on Apr 11, 2006 9:47:51 GMT 3
Pathetic that anyone should fetch for use against Kalonzo from the same arsenal they refuse to have blemish Raila's name.
For starters, Raila composed the refrain that Moi should not be held accountable for his excesses as president, but that he should instead be honoured as an elder statesman. Now the ferrets are after Kalonzo's bowels for his rendition of the very tune.
Secondly, the allegations surrounding the Armenians refer to both Kalonzo and Raila. Raila and his myrmidons fail to appreciate this, even as they attempt to force the corruption tag onto Kalonzo.
Third, those who seek to paint Kalonzo as a psycophant forget that he was surpassed in this,both in talent and reach by Raila. This both prior to the Cooperation and in the glory days of helicopter rides, battering of pro-Katiba types and even after the Kibaki plutocracy came into office.
Kalonzo is supposedly an enemy of the nebulous concept of freedom, being peddled by the congregation, simply because he is supposed to have met Kibaki for tea,this on the same day he declared Kibaki lacking the moral authority to lead Kenya. This visitation claim, the 'Engima' himself saw fit to rubbish and which if true he provided precedence for.
Kalonzo stands accused of vaccilation,and a lack of spine. But again it is Raila who weighed and measured Saitoti and found he met the golden standard, it is Raila's embrace that proclaimed the career thief Kibaki king, and in Raila's hands that Moi's blood-soaked hands were made whiter than snow. Today it is in Raila's halo that Gumo finds a national stage, and contemporaneously that Musalia takes his turn at inculpability for Goldenberg. Yes, it is Raila who spent the doldrums of 2003- 2005 declaring his unwavering support and loyalty to the great government of Kibaki.
Most glaringly though, the Raila parishioners fail to account for the way in which Raila has failed to show respect for party institutions( in Ford-K, in KANU, in NARC and in LDP), order or consultation throughout his political life. The way he has enriched himself, at mwananchi expense, the callous way he tried to sell off the lake, his penchant for violence and undemocratic declarations. This in a nation already polarised by Kibaki's naked ukabila and corruption. They fail to give reason why Raila and his minions should be expected to provide a departure from the thieving Wanjiku hating ways of Kenyatta, Moi and Kibaki. They have not done so in Nyanza where they had unrivalled power, they will not do it in Nairobi.
Admittedly, I have great reservations about Kalonzo too, but I find it disturbing that without exception everyone seems only too eager to promulgate the goodness of Raila. Some like Museveni genuflecting in invocation and benediction. Oloo's love for scrutiny and analysis lare Gone with the Wind, Alex aversion for bigmanism finds it is now a Hidden Whisper, even Maina's winding essays are Lost in Translation.
It is said that a people, especially in a democracy deserves its leaders. Any nation that reveres a man whose nickname is Agwambo is treading on very thin ice.
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Post by pharlap on Apr 11, 2006 13:08:19 GMT 3
emmo, you do make some interesting observations on many things. I find your take on Raila quite accurate and do agree with your sentiments. I don't see him really "liberating" kenyans from their current state. Only the wananchi can do that. When the people don't have the power to change things except on election day, which again is not in their power (Clearly, the best and most convincing liar will take the day) we can only get true liberation by enlightening the masses on what they deserve. Looking at individuals is like a dog chasing its own tail. You will never get a person that can fit the criteria we all have for a true leader. Everyone has a but* somewhere. That is why i insisted that it does not matter who is in statehouse. As long as the political temprature is that they can be held accountable by wananchi, like the anglo-leasing scandal, where we had a few ministers resign, things should be headed teh right way. Lets work on what matters, the people. After that, it will take a lot of truth to woo/fool them when it comes to voting. I remember in highschool, reading shamba la wanyama and discussing our current political system, pitting it against what we were reading, and that encouraged a lot of debate, with some of us making statements and asking questions which the teacher noted, "must never be written on the exam paper" That way, at least a few hundreds of thousand youth who are among the educated lot, with voting rights were exposed to material that i believe has been very useful. For once, lets forget about the presidency and focus on a long term solution. Its like making up and breaking up with whoever so often. Under Kibaki, the economy has grown quite a bit, the first time in decades we are seeing some real development. Yes, there was looting and all that and Kibaki has been dumb about all this, but don't forget that he has also put into place some policias that are in the long run going to be beneficial. Like all other politicians, he has his short-comings lakini on the whole though, i think he is the best president we have had so far.
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Post by aeichener on Apr 11, 2006 16:25:18 GMT 3
Excellent, Pharlap, excellent. And mature. Not the idle bigmanism we see here so often.
Alexander
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Post by maina on Apr 11, 2006 16:39:06 GMT 3
Pathetic that anyone should fetch for use against Kalonzo from the same arsenal they refuse to have blemish Raila's name. For starters, Raila composed the refrain that Moi should not be held accountable for his excesses as president, but that he should instead be honoured as an elder statesman. Now the ferrets are after Kalonzo's bowels for his rendition of the very tune. Secondly, the allegations surrounding the Armenians refer to both Kalonzo and Raila. Raila and his myrmidons fail to appreciate this, even as they attempt to force the corruption tag onto Kalonzo. Third, those who seek to paint Kalonzo as a psycophant forget that he was surpassed in this,both in talent and reach by Raila. This both prior to the Cooperation and in the glory days of helicopter rides, battering of pro-Katiba types and even after the Kibaki plutocracy came into office. Kalonzo is supposedly an enemy of the nebulous concept of freedom, being peddled by the congregation, simply because he is supposed to have met Kibaki for tea,this on the same day he declared Kibaki lacking the moral authority to lead Kenya. This visitation claim, the 'Engima' himself saw fit to rubbish and which if true he provided precedence for. Kalonzo stands accused of vaccilation,and a lack of spine. But again it is Raila who weighed and measured Saitoti and found he met the golden standard, it is Raila's embrace that proclaimed the career thief Kibaki king, and in Raila's hands that Moi's blood-soaked hands were made whiter than snow. Today it is in Raila's halo that Gumo finds a national stage, and contemporaneously that Musalia takes his turn at inculpability for Goldenberg. Yes, it is Raila who spent the doldrums of 2003- 2005 declaring his unwavering support and loyalty to the great government of Kibaki. Most glaringly though, the Raila parishioners fail to account for the way in which Raila has failed to show respect for party institutions( in Ford-K, in KANU, in NARC and in LDP), order or consultation throughout his political life. The way he has enriched himself, at mwananchi expense, the callous way he tried to sell off the lake, his penchant for violence and undemocratic declarations. This in a nation already polarised by Kibaki's naked ukabila and corruption. They fail to give reason why Raila and his minions should be expected to provide a departure from the thieving Wanjiku hating ways of Kenyatta, Moi and Kibaki. They have not done so in Nyanza where they had unrivalled power, they will not do it in Nairobi. Admittedly, I have great reservations about Kalonzo too, but I find it disturbing that without exception everyone seems only too eager to promulgate the goodness of Raila. Some like Museveni genuflecting in invocation and benediction. Oloo's love for scrutiny and analysis lare Gone with the Wind, Alex aversion for bigmanism finds it is now a Hidden Whisper, even Maina's winding essays are Lost in Translation. It is said that a people, especially in a democracy deserves its leaders. Any nation that reveres a man whose nickname is Agwambo is treading on very thin ice. Emmo, This is absolutely intriguing. Wow! I found it really hard to write anything here because of the trend some members have of absolutely "dieing" for Raila. However, I agree with you in toto. You forgot to analyse Raila's bribery/corruption crimes. Raila and Gumo are pretty good friends. If you analyse them, they both have the same traits; bribing voters on the voting queues, phobias, mania et cetetra. I also think that Raila's crimes are now forgotten because of the phobia and its mania? And then there is his party line, which does not make any sense. Quite frankly, I keep wondering what exactly Raila stands for! Maina -unedited-
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emmo
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Post by emmo on Apr 11, 2006 20:34:07 GMT 3
Pharlap, Do me a favour. Publish on these pages any evidence you have showing that the Kibaki government has made a radical departure from the economic policies of the Moi years? I have gone through all the budgets and have seen nothing of the sort.
Do not be beguiled by our 'economic growth'. Read Ochieng' Rapudo in today's newspaper.
None of the folks who parade the figures around have ever cared to tell consumers of the information that the fundamental reason the numbers are looking good is that in 2004, the Government changed the way it measures the GDP to the new System of National Accounts (SNA) and changed the base year (a determinant of prices of goods and services) to 2001 from the previous one of 1982.
Actually start a thread on it. People idly bandy this and other untruths about, what benefits to Wanjiku are either ephemeral or plain invisible. Either way that is not the business of government. I want to see radical economic policy, not band-aid measures like paying off coffee farmers only for them to be uprooting their coffee trees and growing vanilla instead two years down the line.
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Post by maina on Apr 19, 2006 4:07:03 GMT 3
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Post by denno on Apr 19, 2006 17:45:45 GMT 3
Miguna's article is a total disappointment. According to him Raila is true leader because he formed and transformed political parties - how pathetic. Kalonzo has shown his lack of leadership qualities, but to disqualify him because he has not held a political office or fought for during the 2nd liberation is trivial on Miguna's part. I can argye that Raila has also failed to provide leadership in Luo Nyanza where his party holds almost 100% of the civic posts. Once again I would argue that he, Raila should have used luo Nyanza as his lab to be used as benchmark for the rest of the country. Raila has failed as leader just like many before. Constant agitation does not make one a better leader, it might sway the public into a frenzy of excitement then what?
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Post by nereah on Feb 17, 2011 13:54:50 GMT 3
7. This is one is a direct Marxist querry: Ndugu Raila: whom do you need the most- conservative wishy washy and sycophantic hangers on or consistent and patriotic revolutionaries?Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
the five years old question by jukwaa's biggest o to shujaa amollo is still as relevant as it is today. me insist that raila's ideology now and henceforth must only be one: pragmatism. that's the only option.
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2011 15:04:32 GMT 3
Fortunately, Raila's options are not to be found on Jukwaa. We can postulate all we want here but the theater of operation has a whole set of dimensions that cant be comprehended by most contributers on this board. And I report as one very much in the thick of that operation.
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Post by phil on Feb 17, 2011 17:21:09 GMT 3
Fortunately, Raila's options are not to be found on Jukwaa. We can postulate all we want here but the theater of operation has a whole set of dimensions that cant be comprehended by most contributers on this board. And I report as one very much in the thick of that operation. Enigma Well said and I want to assure you ODM will prevail. Most people think that ODM and its leadership are foolish and without any options now that the so called KKK are regrouping. How desperate that the same group have planted state security agents in Jukwaa and other online forums Raila himself has to contend with 'working' with at least one dozen NSIS agents who have been planted on him and his family by the collision government that he serves and they report his daily activities (including when and how long he visits the loo) to a certain well known officer for compilation to their masters. Mudavadi, Nyagah, Ngilu and others are not having it easy either. Akina Miguna has being tailed everywhere in Nairobi, including somewhere in Pangani where Miguna is a frequent visitor. Ngilu was actually right to go to London otherwise........you never know. ODM leadership can hardly discuss anything of strategic interests to ODM on their phones or emails since their lines and addresses are tapped. Kweli, this is truly a grand collision government.
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Post by bkichwa on Feb 17, 2011 17:37:22 GMT 3
ODM leadership can hardly discuss anything of strategic interests to ODM on their phones or emails since their lines and addresses are tapped. Kweli, this is truly a grand collision government. Phil, or anyone else who might be in the know - how are email addresses tapped? Do google, yahoo, etc, give NSIS access to pry into their clients' email accounts or?
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Post by phil on Feb 17, 2011 17:50:59 GMT 3
ODM leadership can hardly discuss anything of strategic interests to ODM on their phones or emails since their lines and addresses are tapped. Kweli, this is truly a grand collision government. Phil, or anyone else who might be in the know - how are email addresses tapped? Do google, yahoo, etc, give NSIS access to pry into their clients' email accounts or? Key words my brother.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Feb 17, 2011 21:08:42 GMT 3
How desperate that the same group have planted state security agents in Jukwaa and other online forums Raila himself has to contend with 'working' with at least one dozen NSIS agents who have been planted on him and his family by the collision government that he serves and they report his daily activities (including when and how long he visits the loo) to a certain well known officer for compilation to their masters. Mudavadi, Nyagah, Ngilu and others are not having it easy either. Akina Miguna has being tailed everywhere in Nairobi, including somewhere in Pangani where Miguna is a frequent visitor. Ngilu was actually right to go to London otherwise........you never know. ODM leadership can hardly discuss anything of strategic interests to ODM on their phones or emails since their lines and addresses are tapped. Kweli, this is truly a grand collision government. And thats is why I keep the Hon Prime Minister in my thoughts daily. The mafiya have a long tract record from here to Timbuktu, of how they have mercilessly killed those they thought were threats. And not only that, now they even kill innocent "luos" too as the gray haired rasputin muthaura said in his leaked tape. I tell you these guys have no qualms about killing their own FATHERS (we ALL know who did that dont WE?), publicly REJECTING THEIR WIVES and DAUGHTERS (we ALL know who did that dont WE?) just to retain power. They have no sense of shame. Bring the arturs, nominate their kith and kin to all the top Govt posts, hata now they do that to the middle cadre jobs too, and they do it without the blink of an eye. They sent us to a mini civil war without caring. They killed over 12000 youths from central eti ni mungiki, buried 500 in mass graves in ngong etc etc etc. Some were homeguards during ukoloni and now still lord over us after independence. These guys are no joke. Unless and until we have a society with structured institution who can enforce the law we are doomed!
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Post by enigma on Feb 17, 2011 22:11:50 GMT 3
It is useless to deploy a few NSIS agents so they can tame a popular grassroots movement. If anything happens, that movement will be so enamored and reenergised. I mean if RAO thought leadership was a route to personal wealth the way Kibaki and cronies plus KKK do, he would have done it without all the pain and suffering he has had to endure. There is a method to this madness. May be they should hire a few hundred thousand agents in April because that is where the fourth chapter of the liberation struggle will be launched and Gichangi is welcome to shred Kibaki's last ounce of legacy any day.
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