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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 7:47:38 GMT 3
Folks, could the conspiracy theorists have it right? Are Uhuru & Ruto, jointly referred to as Uhuruto wrongfully indicted? Did the ICC judges let the wrong man walk? Below read on from a most credible source, US Ambassador Ranneberger. In this dispatch from a KE still smouldering from the effects of PEV, the US Embassy sent letters, dated 4th February 2008, to 8 individuals. The 8 businessmen & politicians, 4 from PNU & 4 from ODM (hmmm...there's that pesky symmetry again), were to show cause why they & their family members should not be stripped of their US vizas or denied them if they didn't have one. Shockingly, Uhuru & Ruto were NOT on the list. ODM Chairman, Henry Kosgey, who was recently flanked by ODM MPs when the ICC judges did not confirm his charges, is. Does this give credence to allegations that Ocampo's prosecution of the Kenya situation is politically motivated? Was Mutahi Ngunyi right when he raised the curious fact that one James Orengo (ODM) stuck very close to Ocampo during his KE visits when he wasn't even the Justice minister & hinted he may have influenced Ocampo's hand (a bizarre twist to the "O conspiracy")? Read the Wikileak of US Embassy Dispatch 08NAIROBI378 dated 5th February 2008, titled "Kenya: Linking Visas To The Violence" & be the judge... "SUBJECT: KENYA: LINKING VISAS TO VIOLENCE Classified by: Ambassador Michael E. Ranneberger for reasons 1.4 (B) and (D). ¶1. (C) To follow up on recent statements by Assistant Secretary Jendayi Frazer and the Ambassador indicating that the Department will review the visa eligibility of Kenyan politicians and businessmen suspected of supporting, inciting, or perpetrating violence in Kenya, Post delivered eight letters on February 5, signed by the Ambassador, to the following individuals: -- Richard Ngatia, businessman with PNU links suspected of funding Kikuyu youth groups engaged in violence. -- Njenga Karume, former minster with PNU ties suspected of having links to the Mungiki (Kikuyu mafia) and other related criminal organizations. -- John Mututho, PNU MP for Naivasha suspected of funding Kikuyu youth engaged in ethnic violence. -- Joshua Kullei, businessman with ODM ties suspected of financing Kalenjin youth groups engaged in ethnic violence. -- Henry Kosgei, ODM MP for Tinderet suspected of supporting Kalenjin youth groups engaged in violence. -- William ole Ntimana, ODM MP for Narok North, suspected of inciting inter-ethnic violence. -- Zakayo Cheruiyuot, ODM MP for Kuresoi, suspected of inciting inter-ethnic violence. -- Kabando wa Kabando, ODM MP for Mukurweini, suspectd of organizing and inciting inter- ethnic violence. ¶2. (C) Text of the letter to the above eight individuals follows below: February 4, 2008 Dear (Name): This is to notify you that indications you may be involved in supporting, inciting, and perpetrating inter- ethnic violence in Kenya are relevant to your and your family's eligibility for U.S. visas. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act provides for the denial of visas to individuals for a variety of reasons. The U.S. Department of State reserves the right to make such a determination and reserves the right to suspend action on a visa application until such time that a determination of an individual's visa eligibility can be made. We request any and all information from you in writing detailing your efforts to promote an end to violence and the achievement of political and ethnic reconciliation in Kenya. Sincerely yours, Michael E. Ranneberger Ambassador ¶3. (C) Post will convey identical letters to additional individuals in Kenya as warranted. Ranneberger wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/02/08NAIROBI378.htmlI am still perusing Wikileaks to see if subsequent letters were sent, but judging from the above are Uhuruto wrongly accused. By extension, did Raila send an apology to the wrong man as Njenga Karume & not Uhuru was outted by the Americans who have a darned good intelligence network? What's going on? |
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Post by joblesscorner on Feb 11, 2012 8:45:07 GMT 3
B6K,
You might have have answered some of the questions that I was having with a friend from Somali Origin.
A question for you, when was the last time Uhuru in the US and refering to the letter from Ranneberger, does that mean, they might deny him a VISA with the charges that his facing, as the Ambassador states the the Immigration Act has the right to deny anyone as the seek... Those will be so many votes to lose if doesn't campaign in the US or UK, definitely all Dispora.
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Post by danieldotwaweru on Feb 11, 2012 10:27:30 GMT 3
Folks, could the conspiracy theorists have it right? Are Uhuru & Ruto, jointly referred to as Uhuruto wrongfully indicted? Did the ICC judges let the wrong man walk? Below read on from a most credible source, US Ambassador Ranneberger. In this dispatch from a KE still smouldering from the effects of PEV, the US Embassy sent letters, dated 4th February 2008, to 8 individuals. The 8 businessmen & politicians, 4 from PNU & 4 from ODM (hmmm...there's that pesky symmetry again), were to show cause why they & their family members should not be stripped of their US vizas or denied them if they didn't have one. Shockingly, Uhuru & Ruto were NOT on the list. ODM Chairman, Henry Kosgey, who was recently flanked by ODM MPs when the ICC judges did not confirm his charges, is. Does this give credence to allegations that Ocampo's prosecution of the Kenya situation is politically motivated? Was Mutahi Ngunyi right when he raised the curious fact that one James Orengo (ODM) stuck very close to Ocampo during his KE visits when he wasn't even the Justice minister & hinted he may have influenced Ocampo's hand (a bizarre twist to the "O conspiracy")?
Not really, no.
(1) It would have taken some time to find the highest-level perpetrators. The letter was written in early ii/2008, so it's quite likely that they had identified the lower- and mid-level perpetrators, but not yet the highest tier. Jendayi Frazer was briefing journalists that the violence was planned on 30.i.2008. So the Americans knew by ii/2008, that the violence was planned. By that time they had decisive evidence—testimony from attackers of the plans, evidence of funding, arrangements for ethnic cleansing—of its organisation. But they might not yet have had decisive evidence of the identities of the highest-level perpetrators. It's one thing to discover that the violence is organised, quite another to find the guy at end of the money chain. Ruto and Uhuru may be off the list because the Americans didn't yet have decisive evidence, not because they were not suspects.
(2) Americans are not the only reliable source here: at least some of the Prosecutor's evidence comes from Waki and KNCHR, both of which named Ruto and Uhuru.
(3) American visa denials aren't consistently applied. Americans sometimes know that so-and-so is implicated in serious crime, but don't impose a visa ban. Via Wikileaks, you'll find a visa ban strongly recommended for Henry Kosgey. One reason given is his conduct of Kenya-Re's affairs: basically, they think he was horribly corrupt. The Kroll and Goldenberg reports suggest Moi was far more corrupt than Kosgey. Yet Moi gets invites to Ranneberger's dinner parties; there's no suggestion of a ban. That a visa ban hasn't been recommended is no reason to think that the Americans lack evidence of wrongdoing.
(4) There are serious problems with the assumption that ODM gave up Ruto and Uhuru. Some of the key evidence (re the nature of the network) comes from a witness who mentions Raila in connection with the planning and organising of the violence. Unlikely that Raila would have implicated himself. Some of the key evidence in the Uhuru case regards secret meetings at State House and elsewhere. It's unlikely that Raila had access to this information, and far more likely that it came into the possession of the ICC via a disillusioned member of Mungiki. Again, key evidence in the Ruto case concerns the smuggling of guns into Kenya by ODM MPs. It is very unlikely that ODM (or its leadership) would admit that one of its MPs is SLDF's gunrunner.
(5) Even if Raila—and what's left of ODM—did give them up, so what? Even assuming that the evidence was gathered by unsavoury means:
(i) the court has been perfectly willing to throw out charges when the evidence disadvantages the accused: Kosgey's lawyers argued that the Prosecutor's presentation of the evidence—anonymity, redactions, etc.—left him unable effectively to defend himself, and the judges more or less agreed. Nor is he alone: other defendants have been able to work that angle successfully.
(ii) the court has found the Uhuru and Ruto evidence credible: it found good evidence that they went to the meetings; that they collected the money; that they sorted out the guns, and so on. They've been unable to produce alibis, or even convincing alternative explanations. If the evidence were simply made up—if it was all Raila's fault—then the simplest, most reasonable thing in the world would be to produce the alibis or convincing alternative explanations. But alibis came there none.
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Post by mzalendo on Feb 11, 2012 13:37:16 GMT 3
Bk6 it is one thing to air an opinion and it is the other to authoritatively claim so .
Tell me, sincerely did you mean to say that rennebargger has indeed declared uhuruto innocent going by what you have penned above.
Or is it an extention of an online hateful prayer rallies?
you were very keen on choice of words you used at the heading of your thread and the contrast in the body is appaling to say the least. come on, you can do better than this.
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 14:26:28 GMT 3
B6K, You might have have answered some of the questions that I was having with a friend from Somali Origin. A question for you, when was the last time Uhuru in the US and refering to the letter from Ranneberger, does that mean, they might deny him a VISA with the charges that his facing, as the Ambassador states the the Immigration Act has the right to deny anyone as the seek... Those will be so many votes to lose if doesn't campaign in the US or UK, definitely all Dispora. JC, having gone through all the cables on KE I haven't found anything that indicates that either Uhuru or Ruto have US visa bans. The only ones to appear were the Wako, Kosgey, & Ringera ones. If memory serves Uhuru made an official trip to the US or the UK around the time of Wako's ban. A rumour circulated that he had also detoured to Den Haag. |
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 14:42:59 GMT 3
Not really, no. (1) It would have taken some time to find the highest-level perpetrators. The letter was written in early ii/2008, so it's quite likely that they had identified the lower- and mid-level perpetrators, but not yet the highest tier. Jendayi Frazer was briefing journalists that the violence was planned on 30.i.2008. So the Americans knew by ii/2008, that the violence was planned. By that time they had decisive evidence—testimony from attackers of the plans, evidence of funding, arrangements for ethnic cleansing—of its organisation. But they might not yet have had decisive evidence of the identities of the highest-level perpetrators. It's one thing to discover that the violence is organised, quite another to find the guy at end of the money chain. Ruto and Uhuru may be off the list because the Americans didn't yet have decisive evidence, not because they were not suspects. (2) Americans are not the only reliable source here: at least some of the Prosecutor's evidence comes from Waki and KNCHR, both of which named Ruto and Uhuru. (3) American visa denials aren't consistently applied. Americans sometimes know that so-and-so is implicated in serious crime, but don't impose a visa ban. Via Wikileaks, you'll find a visa ban strongly recommended for Henry Kosgey. One reason given is his conduct of Kenya-Re's affairs: basically, they think he was horribly corrupt. The Kroll and Goldenberg reports suggest Moi was far more corrupt than Kosgey. Yet Moi gets invites to Ranneberger's dinner parties; there's no suggestion of a ban. That a visa ban hasn't been recommended is no reason to think that the Americans lack evidence of wrongdoing. (4) There are serious problems with the assumption that ODM gave up Ruto and Uhuru. Some of the key evidence (re the nature of the network) comes from a witness who mentions Raila in connection with the planning and organising of the violence. Unlikely that Raila would have implicated himself. Some of the key evidence in the Uhuru case regards secret meetings at State House and elsewhere. It's unlikely that Raila had access to this information, and far more likely that it came into the possession of the ICC via a disillusioned member of Mungiki. Again, key evidence in the Ruto case concerns the smuggling of guns into Kenya by ODM MPs. It is very unlikely that ODM (or its leadership) would admit that one of its MPs is SLDF's gunrunner. (5) Even if Raila—and what's left of ODM—did give them up, so what? Even assuming that the evidence was gathered by unsavoury means: (i) the court has been perfectly willing to throw out charges when the evidence disadvantages the accused: Kosgey's lawyers argued that the Prosecutor's presentation of the evidence—anonymity, redactions, etc.—left him unable effectively to defend himself, and the judges more or less agreed. Nor is he alone: other defendants have been able to work that angle successfully. (ii) the court has found the Uhuru and Ruto evidence credible: it found good evidence that they went to the meetings; that they collected the money; that they sorted out the guns, and so on. They've been unable to produce alibis, or even convincing alternative explanations. If the evidence were simply made up—if it was all Raila's fault—then the simplest, most reasonable thing in the world would be to produce the alibis or convincing alternative explanations. But alibis came there none. [/font][/quote] DW, as always a clinical & thorough analysis from you. I did eventually find a cable mentioning Uhuru & Ruto which was a report on suspects as outted by CIPEV. So as per your point (1) they rely on an outside source to get the higher ups. As far as I saw, the prime suspects, for Ranneberger, were the 8 he named & sent letters to on Feb '08. (2) they refer to CIPEV. (3) You're right. Apart from Kosgey, none of the 8 named as prime suspects seems to have a visa ban. (4) The jury's still out on that. (5) Let's see what Khan & co bring out of the hat in trial. |
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 15:06:37 GMT 3
Bk6 it is one thing to air an opinion and it is the other to authoritatively claim so . Tell me, sincerely did you mean to say that rennebargger has indeed declared uhuruto innocent going by what you have penned above. Or is it an extention of an online hateful prayer rallies? you were very keen on choice of words you used at the heading of your thread and the contrast in the body is appaling to say the least. come on, you can do better than this. Mzalendo, I think the cable speaks for itself. At least on 5th February '08 when ambassador Ranneberger dispatched his report, Uhuru & Ruto were not PEV suspects. Indeed going by the balance of the cables in Wikileaks about PEV, the 2 are only named when a report on CIPEV suspects is sent, not as the embassy saw things on the ground which is what the above list of 8 shows. Don't shoot the messenger. Read the cable. I want Ruto to fry as much as the next guy for his role in the RVP killing fields. Uhuru has a case to answer to given what we heard in PTC 2. But Uncle Sam basically appears to give them a clean bill of health, apart from the subsequent cable quoting CIPEV, which amongst other evidence is what has them in the dock. If anything this actually exonerates Obama since he, & Dubyah before him, would operate with information from the embassy in Nairobi nullifying the Odinga-Obama-Ocampo conspiracy. They are not suspects so where's the contrast? As for choice of words on the heading, space is rather limited on Proboards headers to get a title that still conveys the message especially when you have to squeeze in the name Ranneberger. Let me tweak it for you a tad. |
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 15:08:06 GMT 3
Folks, could the conspiracy theorists have it right? Are Uhuru & Ruto, jointly referred to as Uhuruto wrongfully indicted? Did the ICC judges let the wrong man walk? Below read on from a most credible source, US Ambassador Ranneberger. In this dispatch from a KE still smouldering from the effects of PEV, the US Embassy sent letters, dated 4th February 2008, to 8 individuals. The 8 businessmen & politicians, 4 from PNU & 4 from ODM (hmmm...there's that pesky symmetry again), were to show cause why they & their family members should not be stripped of their US vizas or denied them if they didn't have one. Shockingly, Uhuru & Ruto were NOT on the list. ODM Chairman, Henry Kosgey, who was recently flanked by ODM MPs when the ICC judges did not confirm his charges, is. Does this give credence to allegations that Ocampo's prosecution of the Kenya situation is politically motivated? Was Mutahi Ngunyi right when he raised the curious fact that one James Orengo (ODM) stuck very close to Ocampo during his KE visits when he wasn't even the Justice minister & hinted he may have influenced Ocampo's hand (a bizarre twist to the "O conspiracy")? Read the Wikileak of US Embassy Dispatch 08NAIROBI378 dated 5th February 2008, titled "Kenya: Linking Visas To The Violence" & be the judge... "SUBJECT: KENYA: LINKING VISAS TO VIOLENCE Classified by: Ambassador Michael E. Ranneberger for reasons 1.4 (B) and (D). ¶1. (C) To follow up on recent statements by Assistant Secretary Jendayi Frazer and the Ambassador indicating that the Department will review the visa eligibility of Kenyan politicians and businessmen suspected of supporting, inciting, or perpetrating violence in Kenya, Post delivered eight letters on February 5, signed by the Ambassador, to the following individuals: -- Richard Ngatia, businessman with PNU links suspected of funding Kikuyu youth groups engaged in violence. -- Njenga Karume, former minster with PNU ties suspected of having links to the Mungiki (Kikuyu mafia) and other related criminal organizations. -- John Mututho, PNU MP for Naivasha suspected of funding Kikuyu youth engaged in ethnic violence. -- Joshua Kullei, businessman with ODM ties suspected of financing Kalenjin youth groups engaged in ethnic violence. -- Henry Kosgei, ODM MP for Tinderet suspected of supporting Kalenjin youth groups engaged in violence. -- William ole Ntimana, ODM MP for Narok North, suspected of inciting inter-ethnic violence. -- Zakayo Cheruiyuot, ODM MP for Kuresoi, suspected of inciting inter-ethnic violence. -- Kabando wa Kabando, ODM MP for Mukurweini, suspectd of organizing and inciting inter- ethnic violence. ¶2. (C) Text of the letter to the above eight individuals follows below: February 4, 2008 Dear (Name): This is to notify you that indications you may be involved in supporting, inciting, and perpetrating inter- ethnic violence in Kenya are relevant to your and your family's eligibility for U.S. visas. The U.S. Immigration and Nationality Act provides for the denial of visas to individuals for a variety of reasons. The U.S. Department of State reserves the right to make such a determination and reserves the right to suspend action on a visa application until such time that a determination of an individual's visa eligibility can be made. We request any and all information from you in writing detailing your efforts to promote an end to violence and the achievement of political and ethnic reconciliation in Kenya. Sincerely yours, Michael E. Ranneberger Ambassador ¶3. (C) Post will convey identical letters to additional individuals in Kenya as warranted. Ranneberger wikileaks.ch/cable/2008/02/08NAIROBI378.htmlI am still perusing Wikileaks to see if subsequent letters were sent, but judging from the above are Uhuruto wrongly accused. By extension, did Raila send an apology to the wrong man as Njenga Karume & not Uhuru was outted by the Americans who have a darned good intelligence network? What's going on? |
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Post by abdulmote on Feb 11, 2012 18:15:51 GMT 3
B6,
I find your header on this topic to be rather annoying, considering your attempt as can be confirmed from the main body!
Refrain from that path matey. It can destroy you credibility rating very fast in here.
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Post by b6k on Feb 11, 2012 23:14:34 GMT 3
B6, I find your header on this topic to be rather annoying, considering your attempt as can be confirmed from the main body! Refrain from that path matey. It can destroy you credibility rating very fast in here. Abdul, concerning the annoying header, maybe a brief historical detour is in order. Last year a prominent Jukwaaist uploaded a thread on the shooting death of a certain Mr. Ogolla, the driver of Lewis Nguyai, MP. jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=print&thread=5883 It turned out that not only was the header misleading, but a lot of the body of the thread was pure conjecture. Inspite of the fact that the author was, for lack of a better word, inciting some Jukwaaists to take up their pitchforks & denounce the Kikuyu MP who arranged for his driver's demise through his Mungiki connections because he saw an ICC case coming a year in advance, it turned out the late driver was a Mr Ogora from the highlands. Has that Jukwaaist's credibility been called to question? Where was your outrage for being exposed to annoying headers then, matey? Or is it simply a case of allowing what agrees with your worldview freerange while slamming that which threatens it with censure? If I ran a broadsheet or some kind of magazine that required "credibility" to ensure circulation was guaranteed then you would be right. However, I don't. So frankly, matey, I don't give a toss. |
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Post by tnk on Feb 11, 2012 23:21:36 GMT 3
hehehe b6k
you are turning into your own version of nguyai
that author, gachquota on at least another occassion made some allegations and when called also couldnt stand up, so in fact it turns out his credibility did get lowered.
so what are you telling us by comparing your post to his?
ebu throw away that shovel bro. you don't belong there
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Post by b6k on Feb 12, 2012 0:02:57 GMT 3
Hehehe, I hear you TNK  . Let me exercise what Mutula Kilonzo called the principle of detachment... |
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major
Junior Member
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Post by major on Feb 12, 2012 3:59:07 GMT 3
Hehehehe...... Laughter is still the best medicine.
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. Let me exercise what Mutula Kilonzo called the principle of detachment... 