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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 27, 2012 23:39:39 GMT 3
This is a serious problem. Kibaki is claiming it is unconstitutional to have DCs etc reporting to the governor. What is really unconstitutional is to keep dragging the DCs etc around after the pronvincial admnistration has been abolished. The national government can function and carry on its activities in the counties without DCs and all these State House appointed staff whose job is to work for State House everywhere they are. Here we go: www.nation.co.ke/News/Impasse+as+Kibaki+returns+County+law+/-/1056/1355170/-/1of7b1/-/index.html
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 0:11:36 GMT 3
This is a serious problem. Kibaki is claiming it is unconstitutional to have DCs etc reporting to the governor. What is really unconstitutional is to keep dragging the DCs etc around after the pronvincial admnistration has been abolished. The national government can function and carry on its activities in the counties without DCs and all these State House appointed staff whose job is to work for State House everywhere they are.
Here we go:
www.nation.co.ke/News/Impasse+as+Kibaki+returns+County+law+/-/1056/1355170/-/1of7b1/-/index.html It may be a serious problem but not at all unforeseeable. It is just another part of constitution-making where people chose to postpone the mess to later for the sake of a sense of accomplishment. See the article below, on Provincial Administration: What exactly does that article say of the structure of provincial administration under the new constitution? Is it what Kibaki has in mind, what parliament has in mind, or what a common Kenyan has in mind? What did Kenya say "Yes" to with respect to Provincial Administration? Whatever it was, it is not unique, and now few will be called to impose on us what we all would have chosen for ourselves - if only we were patient to state something explicitly.
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 28, 2012 1:42:47 GMT 3
mank,There is no mess to be fixed. Kibaki and his cohorts are the ones creating a mess. I find the Standard version of the issue much clearer. Here it is: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000052986&cid=4¤tPage=1The root of this problem is simple. Kibaki and his cohorts have decided to retain the PCs, DCs, DOs by kifua even though there is no constitutional provisions for them and more importantly there is no work for them. They kept them in the Draft from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and that of the OP. They have no work. They are just supposed to be there to represent the national government. What exactly will they do? What are their tasks? What are Kenyans going to be paying these people for? So far they are being maintained merely as watchmen and women for State House. That is a collosal waste of money to say the least. If they are there to handle security matters then specify what those security matters are, who will handle them and how. You don't need the entire PA system smuggled in through the back door for security. That is a very lame excuse to maintain the status quo. What the M.Ps did was to compound the problem by creating work for the DCs and DOs within the county governments. These positions should have been abolished completely and let the national government use the time it has to reform the provincial administration system not just to impose the old one they had and claim they have reformed it or that they need five years to do so. You don't need thousands upon thousands of state employees with no work getting paid to keep an eye for the president when the national government has no clue what they want them to do. In my view the first step towards solving this problem is to do a way with the DCs DOs etc until the national government comes up with new reformed structures which of course wil have to be debated and accepted in parliament. The so called national government just like the counties cannot make roadside laws. Whatever laws they want must pass through parliament. The government has wasted too much time trying to figure out how to sneak the PA system back rather looking into ways of reforming it. So what M.Ps should do is to remove the whole chunk about the DCS and DOs and ask the government to go back to the drawing board and come up with something workable. The other aspect is that this could end up in a stalemate. If parliament cannot get the 2/3 majority to overide the Kibaki veto and Kibaki cannot get the numbers to torpedo the system to his liking we have a stalemate. Then what?
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 3:18:04 GMT 3
mank,
There is no mess to be fixed. Kibaki and his cohorts are the ones creating a mess.
I find the Standard version of the issue much clearer.
Here it is:
www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000052986&cid=4¤tPage=1
The root ofo this problem is simple. Kibaki and his cohorts have decided to retain the PCs, DCs, DOs by kifua even though there is no constitutional provisions for them and more importantly there is no work for them. ... Adongo,You and I, and others have discussed the precursor to this problem several times before. Remember when we were debating whether certain articles should be clarified before the referendum, or after referendum (as Raila argued would be the case even though all logic would tell us that meant never)? You say there is no mess but what we are discussing right now, what the 2 papers have written on, is the mess. I have quoted you the article of the constitution that allows Kibaki to argue that he is following the constitution when he refuses to sign the bill. The same article allows parliament to believe that it has the right interpretation of the constitution as it applies to provincial administration. As for your interpretation, the article differs - it shows that the constitution retains Provincial Administration in some undefined manner, with the definition being the mess I allude to. They (Kibaki and his cohorts) kept them in the Draft from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and that of the OP. They have no work. They are just supposed to be there to represent the national government. What exactly will they do? What are their tasks? What are Kenyans going to be paying these people for? So far they are being maintained merely as watchmen and women for State House. That is a collosal waste of money to say the least. If they are there to handle security matters then specify what those security matters are, who will handle them and how. You don't need the entire PA system smuggled in through the back door for security. That is a very lame excuse to maintain the status quo.
What the M.Ps did was to compound the problem by creating work for the DCs and DOs within the county governments. These positions should have been abolished completely and let the national government use the time it has to reform the provincial administration system not just to impose the old one they had and claim they have reformed it or that they need five years to do so.
You don't need thousands upon thousands of state employees with no work getting paid to keep an eye for the president when the national government has no clue what they want them to do.
In my view the first step towards solving this problem is to do a way with the DCs DOs etc until the national government comes up with new reformed structures which of course wil have to be debated and accepted in parliament.
The so called national government just like the counties cannot make roadside laws. Whatever laws they want must pass through parliament.
The government has wasted too much time trying to figure out how to sneak the PA system back rather looking into ways of reforming it. So what M.Ps should do is to remove the whole chunk about the DCS and DOs and ask the government to go back to the drawing board and come up with something workable.
The other aspect is that this could end up in a stalemate. If parliament cannot get the 2/3 majority to overide the Kibaki veto and Kibaki cannot get the numbers to torpedo the system to his liking we have a stalemate. Then what? All this is the discussion we ought to have held before voting "YES" - and if if you dig back in pre-referendum threads you will see where you and others silenced me and others for sounding the alert. As you and others argued, the train had left the station. As a result we voted "Yes" to something that was coded for any interpretation on serious issues of the constitution reform, including leaving open doors for scenarios we would certainly have voted "NO" --- the very scenarios that were the stench of the old regime. Now what? I must ask, where is the train now? I know this question can sound rude, but it really is an expression of my frustration, and I wish those who argued against me then (you included) would rise up to give real answers now, and not to just blame Kibaki. Kibaki is as jusfied as anyone to assert his own views where the constitution creates space for diverse opinions. We should have been clear as to what we were voting "YES" but many believed that it was ok to just vote "YES". The solution to this predicament will be always problematic to come by, and when we get to it, we will be ever closer to what we were reforming away from!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 28, 2012 4:59:05 GMT 3
Mank,
Chicken finally coming home to roost. Na bado. We are still grappling with the election date, as we speak not even captain Fabregas knows when we shall vote despite it being his secret weapon. And the issues just keep cropping up daily. If only we could have waited for a month or two more.
The article you cite above is as vague as can be. More interesting is its ceding of the responsibility of restructuring PA to the national government.
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 28, 2012 5:10:12 GMT 3
mank,
There is no mess to be fixed. Kibaki and his cohorts are the ones creating a mess.
I find the Standard version of the issue much clearer.
Here it is:
www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000052986&cid=4¤tPage=1
The root ofo this problem is simple. Kibaki and his cohorts have decided to retain the PCs, DCs, DOs by kifua even though there is no constitutional provisions for them and more importantly there is no work for them. ... Adongo,You and I, and others have discussed the precursor to this problem several times before. Remember when we were debating whether certain articles should be clarified before the referendum, or after referendum (as Raila argued would be the case even though all logic would tell us that meant never)? You say there is no mess but what we are discussing right now, what the 2 papers have written on, is the mess. I have quoted you the article of the constitution that allows Kibaki to argue that he is following the constitution when he refuses to sign the bill. The same article allows parliament to believe that it has the right interpretation of the constitution as it applies to provincial administration. As for your interpretation, the article differs - it shows that the constitution retains Provincial Administration in some undefined manner, with the definition being the mess I allude to. They (Kibaki and his cohorts) kept them in the Draft from the Ministry of Internal Affairs and that of the OP. They have no work. They are just supposed to be there to represent the national government. What exactly will they do? What are their tasks? What are Kenyans going to be paying these people for? So far they are being maintained merely as watchmen and women for State House. That is a collosal waste of money to say the least. If they are there to handle security matters then specify what those security matters are, who will handle them and how. You don't need the entire PA system smuggled in through the back door for security. That is a very lame excuse to maintain the status quo.
What the M.Ps did was to compound the problem by creating work for the DCs and DOs within the county governments. These positions should have been abolished completely and let the national government use the time it has to reform the provincial administration system not just to impose the old one they had and claim they have reformed it or that they need five years to do so.
You don't need thousands upon thousands of state employees with no work getting paid to keep an eye for the president when the national government has no clue what they want them to do.
In my view the first step towards solving this problem is to do a way with the DCs DOs etc until the national government comes up with new reformed structures which of course wil have to be debated and accepted in parliament.
The so called national government just like the counties cannot make roadside laws. Whatever laws they want must pass through parliament.
The government has wasted too much time trying to figure out how to sneak the PA system back rather looking into ways of reforming it. So what M.Ps should do is to remove the whole chunk about the DCS and DOs and ask the government to go back to the drawing board and come up with something workable.
The other aspect is that this could end up in a stalemate. If parliament cannot get the 2/3 majority to overide the Kibaki veto and Kibaki cannot get the numbers to torpedo the system to his liking we have a stalemate. Then what? All this is the discussion we ought to have held before voting "YES" - and if if you dig back in pre-referendum threads you will see where you and others silenced me and others for sounding the alert. As you and others argued, the train had left the station. As a result we voted "Yes" to something that was coded for any interpretation on serious issues of the constitution reform, including leaving open doors for scenarios we would certainly have voted "NO" --- the very scenarios that were the stench of the old regime. Now what? I must ask, where is the train now? I know this question can sound rude, but it really is an expression of my frustration, and I wish those who argued against me then (you included) would rise up to give real answers now, and not to just blame Kibaki. Kibaki is as jusfied as anyone to assert his own views where the constitution creates space for diverse opinions. We should have been clear as to what we were voting "YES" but many believed that it was ok to just vote "YES". The solution to this predicament will be always problematic to come by, and when we get to it, we will be ever closer to what we were reforming away from! mank,The issue is not about those who voted "Yes" or "No". I don't want to sound rude, to borrow your words, but those who championed the "No" Vote lost in the referundum. Too bad. That is the fact. I don't know about the watermelons. But we cannot keep rehearshing the referundum. It was voted on in August 2010. Those who lost have to deal with that reality. They lost. This idea that if we only waited a little longer and fixed the problems everything would be great is just plain fantasy. It is only good for those who entertain such things as unrealistic as they are. God bless them. Fantasy is good! Now it terms of what to do, I have made my humble suggestions. Get rid of the DCs DOs na kadhalika in the Devolution Bills dealing with security and the working relationships between the national and county governments. Throw them out, pass the rest of the Bill and let the national government go figure out how to reform the PA. That is my thinking. It is a lie that the new constitution retains the PA in some form. It doesn't. What it does is to provide for the role of the national government in specific aspects of the lives of Kenyans in every county and in this case national security is very important. That is fine with me. We have to get away from the myth that the national governmetn consists only of the PA. It doesn't. The new constitution allows the national government to reform the PA system to conform with the constitution that includes county governments and eliminates the PA system. That is the bottom line. Anybody who interprets that as meaning the government can retain the PA system is not being honest. The PA system is gone but with a little creativity we can create new national structures that conform with the constitution and provide the services the national government needs to do in the counties. I specifically has national security in mind. I don't want the governors with virtual armies and security agents at their beckoning. Considering the way folks are killing each other in the country as we speak, we may end up with virtual endless wars many of which could be tribal by nature. Of course we know the national governments in Kenya have been the biggest promoters and funders or tribal wars and ethnic cleansing. That is a story for another day. My point is that the new constitution does not outlaw creativity. That is what is lacking in the Devolution Bills dealing with the PA system. The rest of the Devolution Bills have gone through. There were three of them. Two are on the clear. These other people need to think hard and work instead of trying to amend the katiba in the alleyway or rehearshing the referundum campaign. That is pretty doable.
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 5:44:57 GMT 3
mank,
The issue is not about those who voted "Yes" or "No". I don't want to sound rude, to borrow your words, but those who voted "No" lost in the referundum. That is the fact. I don't know about the watermelons. But we cannot keep rehearshing the referundum. It was voted on in August 2010.
Now it terms of what to do, I have made my humble suggestions. Get rid of the DCs DOs na kadhalika in the Devolution Bills dealing with security and the working relationships between the national and county governments. Throw them out, pass the rest of the Bill and let the national government go figure out how to reform the PA. That is my thinking.
It is a lie that the new constitution retains the PA in some form. It doesn't. What it does is to provide for the role of the national government in specific aspects of the lives of Kenyans in every county an din this case national security is very important. That is fine with me.
The new constitution allows the national government to reform the PA system to conform with the constitution that includes county governments and eliminates the PA system. That is the bottom line.
Anybody who interprets that as meaning the government can retain the PA system is not being honest. The PA system is gone but with a little creativity we can create new national structures that conform with the constitution and provide the services the national government needs to do in the counties. I specifically has national security in mind.
I don't want the governors with virtual armies and security agents at their beckoning. Considering the way folks are killing each other in the country as we speak, we may end up with virtual endless wars many of which could be tribal by nature. Of course we know the national governments in Kenya have been the biggest promoters and funders or tribal wars and ethnic cleansing. That is a story for another day.
My point is that the new constitution does not outlaw creativity. That is what is lacking in the Devolution Bills dealing with the PA system. The rest of the Devolution Bills have gone through. This other people need to think hard and work instead of trying to amend the katiba in the alleyway or rehearshing the referundum campaign. That is pretty doable. Adongo Why are you complaining about how the constitution is unfolding and yet you were not in the "NO" side, which according to you was the loser? If you think about that question seriously we probably can have a reasonable discussion. You are the wrong person to ever expect an objective and reasoned discussion of anything with. So I won't struggle much. As I pen off, sorry to tell you, the time to make your humble suggestions to get rid of the DCs DOs na kadhalika was pre-referendum - so I am not sure which part of the referendum you do not want to rehearse, because you were rehearsing the pre-referendum phase even before I made my first input. But you always like turning your discussants to the subjects of the discussions, hence the contradictions as far as the actual subject of discussion is concerned. You cannot insist on pointing fingers at referendum "losers", excluding yourself from the group, yet in the same breath be the one crying loss by pointing out that things are not going your way. If you won there should be nothing to complain about! You should leave complaints to losers like me, me who lost the moment we as a nation decided we had not the time to iron out the ambiguity that is the source of the mess you identified when you started this thread - the fact that you turn around to claim that there is no mess (just to counter me) means nothing unless you already feel that parliament and Kibaki are at equal footing, a footing that is also the prescription of the constitution - i.e. unless you believe that this thread has no basis.
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 28, 2012 5:58:28 GMT 3
mank,
The constitution cannot and will not implement itself. Kenyans have to do that through the institutions they have. That is what is going on as we speak and that is why I started this thread. It is important about what is going on in the country, namely the implementation of the new katiba.
It is obvious from what we have seen that President Kibaki wants his PA system intact even though the new constitution says that cannot work. That is why some of us are involved in politics. We as a nation have to work for everything we want to achieve. That is why we are where we are. What seems to be the problem?
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 6:16:46 GMT 3
mank,
The constitution cannot and will not implement itself. Kenyans have to do that through the institutions they have. That is what is going on as we speak and that is why I started this thread. It is important about what is going on in the country, namely the implementation of the new katiba.
It is obvious from what we have seen that President Kibaki wants his PA system intact even though the new constitution says that cannot work. That is why some of us are involved in politics. We as a nation have to work for everything we want to achieve. That is why we are where we are. What seems to be the problem? Adongo,I pointed out the article that gives Kibaki the constitutional standing for the position he holds - that article was purposely put there as a thermoflask of a pre-referendum hot potato. At least some other hot potatoes were inadvertent! So what seems the problem is that it is the constitution that is the problem, not a delivery problem as you present it. If you disagree, please provide the article that shows Kibaki is contradicting the constitution by taking the subject position.
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 6:41:36 GMT 3
Mank, Chicken finally coming home to roost. Na bado. We are still grappling with the election date, as we speak not even captain Fabregas knows when we shall vote despite it being his secret weapon. And the issues just keep cropping up daily. If only we could have waited for a month or two more. The article you cite above is as vague as can be. More interesting is its ceding of the responsibility of restructuring PA to the national government.Double jeopardy! We deceived ourselves that we restructured or reformed the PA government, but not only had we disguised the decision by kicking it down the time line, but we had ceded it to the national government - in other words we had given the national government the right to throw back the exact out fit in 5 years. Does anybody seriously think that some other person being head of the national government would not have been pushing the same position Kibaki is pushing? Why in the first place was the article for PA put there in such an undeterministic sense? Was it strategic, to disguise a no-reform statement as reform? Why was it so difficult to state what the structure of PA will be, at least?
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Post by tnk on Feb 28, 2012 10:11:11 GMT 3
i think we are starting on the wrong foot if we perceive this as yet another round of tug of war between who wields the most power/clout in the old constitution, the provincial administration was primarily (ab)used by the executive in one of two ways a) to smother dissent b) reward sycophancy the administration was also used as a pivot center for delivery of other govt services this is enshrined in the founding elements of the PA and aptly captured on the Ministry of eternal insecurity's website as follows == Provincial Administration traces its origin to the colonial era, when colonial authorities introduced institutions which represented both formal mechanisms of Government decision-making and political influence. During this period, its main functions were to collect taxes, maintain law and order and pacification of the natives in the colony. It also provided judicial services (lay services) and participated in legislative matters in the Local Authorities. The colonial administration, created institutions that included the native research, in a bid to strengthen itself at the grass root levels and to ensure that development and enforcement of policies and laws were seen as locally made. This indirect rule was an administrative technique that was meant to legitimise colonial leadership. The chief, then known as the village headman, derived his authority from the Chief's Authority Act. He was the prime instrument of the District Commissioners, then known as Regional Agents, for the disposal of colonial government business. The Headman relied on "village bullies" to exercise his authority and to effect colonial Government policies. These "village bullies" took up the role of the native police by enforcing and arbitrating as delegated by the Headman. The Local Native Councils (LNC's) were established in 1924 and played an advisory role to the District Commissioners, levied taxes and made by-laws for the agriculture and education sectors. Also in place, were the African Tribunal Courts, whose main function was to adjudicate disputes under customary law. In reality they were governed more by English Law and administrative supervision, than purely traditional judicial process. The District Commissioner served as the Court of Appeals for the tribunals. == source: website - min. of eternal insecurity the national government has specific duties and responsibilities working in tandem or side by side with county government which in turn has its complementary duties and responsibilties. this is a tremendous opportunity for kenya to break away from "i am the boss" to "lets forge ahead together" the roles of the restructured national government administration to execute its mandate according to the 4th schedule is well defined just as that of county governments. two issues simultaneously arise. one is that in terms of technical competence and clout for project execution. in the given areas, the county governor controls most clout and if county governors chose to work well with the constituency reps, they will pretty much have de-facto and legal mandate control over projects in other words, even if the projects are "national", local governments will exert their influence over implementation but the second issue is the most contentious - that of security. basically the PA was an extended (bully) police force using the headmen, chiefs, DO, DC, PC to intimidate locals by use of (brutal) force or reward since these guys sat in almost every local council or body. therefore politicians wanted to and still want to be able to control the security apparatus. this however should change as the new police structure is set in place. already the judiciary is on its way to reform, still shaky and a long way to go, but the judiciary is at least marginally free from executive influence. if done right the police force will be on its way to reform as well. therefore the role of PA should generally be reduced to that of providing admin (coordinating) services for national government services as per the fourth schedule with reduced influence on bully services so back to my point, this is an opportunity for the ministry to restructure service delivery based on schedule 4 as well as the principles of devolved government. if this is indeed done genuinely then kibaki is right that the constitution provides for the operations of national government be separate from those of county government but complementary what i see missing from the documents is the convergence/collaboration zones i.e there doesnt see to be a clear and well defined information sharing policy or mechanism in place. therefore it may be possible for county government or national government to have access to critical information but no mechanism provided either for mandatory and/or opt-in sharing of the same. finally although i've downloaded the three bills, and skimmed through quickly am unable to find where it explicitly states that the DCs and what not report to county governor. maybe will find time to go over it later this week, but if someone has that detail kindly share. the real challenge here is for the national govt to outline the restructured prov. admin. specifying roles, structure, limits and purpose etc for service delivery of stipulated national govt functions. and not necessarily for the county govt do that for them. the golden opportunity is therefore for the national government to actually "re-invent" this tool and refashion it from a colonial and retarded oppression relic into a modern tool that revitalizes and rebuilds our nationhood. to turn this into a juvenile tug of war will get us nowhere. we need visionaries, and not people either trying to cling onto power nor create new centers of power. the three bills are downloadable from kenya law (presented by mudavadi) www.kenyalaw.org/klr/index.php?id=98
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Post by dedankimathi on Feb 28, 2012 12:19:49 GMT 3
I think the president will be wrong-footed on this one.
1) If we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules. Article 6(2) is crystal clear; the County and National Governments shall be distinct. They may rely on each other (inter-dependence) but must be physically and recognisably separate (distinct). There can be no such distinction if the national government is projecting state power in the counties via the 'provincial administration'. As simple as that.
2) The schedules are also very clear: the provincial admin shall be restructured to accord with the devolved government - not the other way round. This, in plain English, means that the County Government will swallow the provincial administration. A PC is irrelevant. A DC would report to a Governor.
In my view, Adongo is right to suggest that there was no crisis, the bills as presented were correctly framed. It is too late in the day to try and retain the provincial admin. It is akin to locking the stable after the horse has bolted.
Ultimately, this matter could end up in court.
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Post by tnk on Feb 28, 2012 12:25:26 GMT 3
I think the president will be wrong-footed on this one. 1) If we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules. Article 6(2) is crystal clear; the County and National Governments shall be distinct. They may rely on each other (inter-dependence) but must be physically and recognisably separate (distinct). There can be no such distinction if the national government is projecting state power in the counties via the 'provincial administration'. As simple as that. 2) The schedules are also very clear: the provincial admin shall be restructured to accord with the devolved government - not the other way round. This, in plain English, means that the County Government will swallow the provincial administration. A PC is irrelevant. A DC would report to a Governor. In my view, Adongo is right to suggest that there was no crisis, the bills as presented were correctly framed. It is too late in the day to try and retain the provincial admin. It is akin to locking the stable after the horse has bolted. Ultimately, this matter could end up in court. bw. dedan kimathi first of all kudos, so far your contributions are reflective of a just kenya. you have a huge task ahead on account of your moniker. so far it appears you will fit the bill on the issue of provincial admin if it retains the old mandate, its going nowhere if they reinvent themselves they have opportunity under the new dispensation. otherwise they will fast become irrelevant and obsolete. i will give them a little benefit of doubt to reinvent themselves for now FYI - the biggest "problem" i have with adongo is that on more than 90% of his contributions he is right. he needs to up it to 99% ;D otherwise we do not give him any rest. in my view this is one very good man that has gone through a lot but remains committed to a better kenya.
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Post by tactician on Feb 28, 2012 13:06:40 GMT 3
Here is what the katiba says on the division of powers/responsibilities between state & county governments:
Part 3—Functions and Powers of County Governments
Article 186. (1) Except as otherwise provided by this Constitution, the functions and powers of the national government and the county governments, respectively, are as set out in the Fourth Schedule.
And what does the fourth schedule say is the power of the state government?
DISTRIBUTION OF FUNCTIONS BETWEEN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT AND THE COUNTY GOVERNMENTS Part 1—National Government 1. Foreign affairs, foreign policy and international trade. 2. The use of international waters and water resources. 3. Immigration and citizenship. 4. The relationship between religion and state. 5. Language policy and the promotion of official and local languages. 6. National defence and the use of the national defence services. 7. Police services, including— (a) the setting of standards of recruitment, training of police and use of police services; (b) criminal law; and (c) correctional services. 8. Courts. 9. National economic policy and planning. 10. Monetary policy, currency, banking (including central banking), the incorporation and regulation of banking, insurance and financial corporations. 11. National statistics and data on population, the economy and society generally. 12. Intellectual property rights. 13. Labour standards. 14. Consumer protection, including standards for social security and professional pension plans. 15. Education policy, standards, curricula, examinations and the granting of university charters. 16. Universities, tertiary educational institutions and other institutions of research and higher learning and primary schools , special education, secondary schools and special education institutions. 17. Promotion of sports and sports education. 18. Transport and communications, including, in particular— (a) road traffic; R e v . 2 0 1 0 ] Constitution of Kenya 175 (b) the construction and operation of national trunk roads; (c) standards for the construction and maintenance of other roads by counties; (d) railways; (e) pipelines; (f) marine navigation; (g) civil aviation; (h) space travel; (i) postal services; (j) telecommunications; and (k) radio and television broadcasting. 19. National public works. 20. Housing policy. 21. General principles of land planning and the co-ordination of planning by the counties. 22. Protection of the environment and natural resources with a view to establishing a durable and sustainable system of development, including, in particular— (a) fishing, hunting and gathering; (b) protection of animals and wildlife; (c) water protection, securing sufficient residual water, hydraulic engineering and the safety of dams; and (d) energy policy. 23. National referral health facilities. 24. Disaster management. 25. Ancient and historical monuments of national importance. 26. National elections. 28. Health policy. 29. Agricultural policy. 30. Veterinary policy. 31. Energy policy including electricity and gas reticulation and energy regulation. 32. Capacity building and technical assistance to the counties. 33. Public investment. 34. National betting, casinos and other forms of gambling. 35. Tourism policy and development.
Can anyone tell us how the central/state government will address these responsibilities without having its representatives within the counties?
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 28, 2012 15:30:59 GMT 3
tactician,
How will the DCs, DOs, Chiefs, Sub Chiefs etc help the national government with any of those tasks? That is where we need to start because the issue here is about retaining the PA system?.
How will the DOs help with Foreign Affairs for example? Doesn't the national government today handle Foreign Affairs? How about energy policy? Postal Services? Health Policy? Agricultural Policy? You can add on the list. The DCs, DOs Chiefs etc have absolutely nothing to do with any of those.
Other than Disaster management, correctional services and policing, I see very little in that long list where the DCs, DOs, Chiefs etc are needed. Does the country need tens of thousands of these PA workers to do those few things? Can we have the entire PA system in place waiting to distribute food when there is famine? Is that really sensible and affordable?
There is no issue about the relevance and importance of the national government in the counties after all the national government retains 85% of the national budget which has to be used to provide services to Kenyans each and everyone of whom will be living in some county. The issue is how do you structure the delivery of those services.
Agricultural Officers should continue their work in the counties and get paid by the national government. They do not need DCs and DOs to hold their hands to tell them what to do. Veterinary officers should do the same. Postal workers can go on with their work. Railway services do not need DC and DOs. We can go on and on.
My point is that the national government has to come up with specific jobs that these DCs, DOs etc are going to be doing instead of merely claiming that the national government needs a presence in the counties. We cannot complain of the extra cost of additional layers of government while at the same time carrying on with excessive baggage of the PA whose jobs no longer exist.
Take qualified staff there and re-deploy them in other areas where they can be productive and then reform the national security structures and deploy an appropriate number of personnel working for the national government in coordination with the county governments to do the job. That is what the government should have been doing for the last year and a half instead of just scheming to retain these colossal dead wood and stick the country with billions in expenses for people doing nothing.
This thing is very doable if people think seriously about it and the politicians stop playing endless games to preserve the status quot.
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Post by mank on Feb 28, 2012 17:51:18 GMT 3
I think the president will be wrong-footed on this one.
1) If we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules. Article 6(2) is crystal clear; the County and National Governments shall be distinct. They may rely on each other (inter-dependence) but must be physically and recognisably separate (distinct). There can be no such distinction if the national government is projecting state power in the counties via the 'provincial administration'. As simple as that.
2) The schedules are also very clear: the provincial admin shall be restructured to accord with the devolved government - not the other way round. This, in plain English, means that the County Government will swallow the provincial administration. A PC is irrelevant. A DC would report to a Governor.
In my view, Adongo is right to suggest that there was no crisis, the bills as presented were correctly framed. It is too late in the day to try and retain the provincial admin. It is akin to locking the stable after the horse has bolted.
Ultimately, this matter could end up in court. This is not an issue of right and wrong. Your interpretation of the law is just one way of filling a whole that was left when it was supposed to be filled. Kibaki's is another way. Nowhere in the constitution is it indicated that there shall be no PC! And as I have already pointed out, the article that explicitly addresses provincial administration gives power to the national government to structure that system - to come to accord with devolved government can have any range of interpretations, and yours and Kibaki's are a testimony. Whoever wins, I do not know, but this is pre-Aug 2010 battle ground. On what basis do you say that "if we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules?" The only incident I know the of these two parts of the constitution coming into public confict was during the debate on the date of the elections. I wonder whether that could be the same incident that is in your mind as you made this statement - but in that case "what is in the constitution proper" did not trump what is in the transitional schedules. If it did, we would be certain of the day the next elections will be held.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 28, 2012 18:19:34 GMT 3
I think the president will be wrong-footed on this one.
1) If we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules. Article 6(2) is crystal clear; the County and National Governments shall be distinct. They may rely on each other (inter-dependence) but must be physically and recognisably separate (distinct). There can be no such distinction if the national government is projecting state power in the counties via the 'provincial administration'. As simple as that.
2) The schedules are also very clear: the provincial admin shall be restructured to accord with the devolved government - not the other way round. This, in plain English, means that the County Government will swallow the provincial administration. A PC is irrelevant. A DC would report to a Governor.
In my view, Adongo is right to suggest that there was no crisis, the bills as presented were correctly framed. It is too late in the day to try and retain the provincial admin. It is akin to locking the stable after the horse has bolted.
Ultimately, this matter could end up in court. This is not an issue of right and wrong. Your interpretation of the law is just one way of filling a whole that was left when it was supposed to be filled. Kibaki's is another way. Nowhere in the constitution is it indicated that there shall be no PC! And as I have already pointed out, the article that explicitly addresses provincial administration gives power to the national government to structure that system - to come to accord with devolved government can have any range of interpretations, and yours and Kibaki's are a testimony. Whoever wins, I do not know, but this is pre-Aug 2010 battle ground. On what basis do you say that "if we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules?" The only incident I know the of these two parts of the constitution coming into public confict was during the debate on the date of the elections. I wonder whether that could be the same incident that is in your mind as you made this statement - but in that case "what is in the constitution proper" did not trump what is in the transitional schedules. If it did, we would be certain of the day the next elections will be held. Very well said Mank. As Dedan must have realized, no one is talking about the second (or is it the third?) Tuesday of August as the election date despite being explicit in what he calls the constitution proper (whatever that is). Even the judges of the high court could not wrap their heads around it. Similarly, on the current issue, the drafters of the supreme law could not just make up their minds as to whether we needed to do away with the PA or not. In fact, I can dare say, they intended it to remain but in a different form as the national government (Kibaki, Kimemia and cabinet) may wish as long as whatever structure is adopted does not dilute the county government.
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Post by dedankimathi on Feb 28, 2012 19:11:13 GMT 3
I think the president will be wrong-footed on this one.
1) If we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules. Article 6(2) is crystal clear; the County and National Governments shall be distinct. They may rely on each other (inter-dependence) but must be physically and recognisably separate (distinct). There can be no such distinction if the national government is projecting state power in the counties via the 'provincial administration'. As simple as that.
2) The schedules are also very clear: the provincial admin shall be restructured to accord with the devolved government - not the other way round. This, in plain English, means that the County Government will swallow the provincial administration. A PC is irrelevant. A DC would report to a Governor.
In my view, Adongo is right to suggest that there was no crisis, the bills as presented were correctly framed. It is too late in the day to try and retain the provincial admin. It is akin to locking the stable after the horse has bolted.
Ultimately, this matter could end up in court. This is not an issue of right and wrong. Your interpretation of the law is just one way of filling a whole that was left when it was supposed to be filled. Kibaki's is another way. Nowhere in the constitution is it indicated that there shall be no PC! And as I have already pointed out, the article that explicitly addresses provincial administration gives power to the national government to structure that system - to come to accord with devolved government can have any range of interpretations, and yours and Kibaki's are a testimony. Whoever wins, I do not know, but this is pre-Aug 2010 battle ground. On what basis do you say that "if we have seen anything so far, it is that what is in the constitution proper trumps what is in the transitional schedules?" The only incident I know the of these two parts of the constitution coming into public confict was during the debate on the date of the elections. I wonder whether that could be the same incident that is in your mind as you made this statement - but in that case "what is in the constitution proper" did not trump what is in the transitional schedules. If it did, we would be certain of the day the next elections will be held. Mank – You did not read my message carefully. I used some phrases deliberately: ‘I think…’ In my view…’, ‘ultimately this matter may end up in court’. All because when one discusses the constitution, everything is an opinion. Please refer to the controversy surrounding the appointment of the Chief Justice. You may recall that the president relied on transitional clauses. Others used provisions in the constitution 'proper' and the 'spirit' to successfully challenge President Kibaki. A court even declared his action, illegal. In my view, the country is still seized of the issue of the election date. I accept that the August date looks remote, though in some circles it is still discussed. I hope this message helps. One minor point: the constitution does NOT say, there shall be a PC. It does NOT say there shall be NO PC. There is no constitutionally recognised office called PC.
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Post by dedankimathi on Feb 28, 2012 19:19:27 GMT 3
Similarly, on the current issue, the drafters of the supreme law could not just make up their minds as to whether we needed to do away with the PA or not. In fact, I can dare say, they intended it to remain but in a different form as the national government (Kibaki, Kimemia and cabinet) may wish as long as whatever structure is adopted does not dilute the county government. My opinion is different. I think the drafters (in this case the COE) wanted to abolish the PA. But they knew it would be a strong campaign tool for those against it because ordinary people think chiefs are great. Whatever the arguments, I do not see a place for 'provincial administration' reporting to a president but operating in a county government. That is a recipe for conflict.
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 28, 2012 19:33:49 GMT 3
A few things:
1. I think we can all agree that 99% of the tasks and responsibilities of the national government as listed in the constiturion and posted here by tactician already in the previous page do not require PCs, DCs, DOs and Chiefs.
2. We can also agree that neither Kibaki nor anybody else even those supporting Kibaki here have listed the specific deuties that the PCs, DCs and DOs will be doing. The PA system is dead. We do not even have any entities called provinces. What the law provides for is for the national government to reform the admnistrative structures to conform with the devolved system. Kibaki and his henchmen have NOT made any proposals for those reforms.
It is not enough to impose the PA system by merely claiming that it will be reformed in five years. We already one and half year into the new constitution so any talk about five years is misguided. Those reforms should be taking place now and not in 2015 which is merely 3 years away.
3. The bulk of the work of the national government be it in agriculture, fisheries, tourism, vertinary services etc can and should be performed by the officers and workers already doing the job as we speak. They will continue being paid by the national government and do their work in the counties. They do not need DCs, DOs, Chiefs etc to do their work. Kibaki and others do not need to hide behind these civil servants to impose dead wood PA staff and retain the PA system.
4. Right now we need to do away with the PA folks and send the government back to the drawing board to come with smart and creative ways to reform the system to deal with the very limited role left for the national administrative structures whose real duties and responsibilities are now limited to disaster management, some aspects of correction services and national security duties. This will also have to take into consideration reforms within the police force and the role of the armed forces in areas like disaster management.
One problem we have in our country is the refusal of those in authority to think things through and come up with solutions and making excuses. Kina Kibaki, Kimemia and others have spent the last year and a half trying their level best to simply retain the PA system by any means necessary. Now they say they have five years to sort it out. No you don't have five years. Kibaki has a year left in his tenure in office if not less. Reforming the PA system to embrace the new reality that the PA boys and girls have no work to do needs to be done now and not later.
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Post by job on Feb 29, 2012 0:09:36 GMT 3
As expected, interpretation and more important – implementation - of the constitution will continue being contested. Section 17 of the 5th Schedule states:
"Within five years after the effective date, the national government shall restructure the system of administration commonly known as the provincial administration to accord with, and respect, the system of devolved government established under this constitution."
It’s only logical to assume that the restructuring will be on-going even after Kibaki’s term. The restructuring will continue after Kenyans elect 47 County Governors and a new President. I can bet the trajectory of the restructuring will definitely not be the same as what Kibaki envisages today.
But even if we stick to the current legislation that Kibaki is attempting to veto. There is already a big element of competition here – between the Office of the President (OP) and legislators. Don’t rule out MPs marshalling 145 votes to over-ride Kibaki’s veto.
Save for CDF’s, the Provincial Administration (PA) - serving interests of the OP – is always at loggerhead with MPs. The PA greatly reduces the influence of elected MPs on local policy decisions and resource distribution. MPs don’t like playing subordinates to PCs, DCs and these administrators assigned to their areas by the OP. MPs will confess to you that it is easier for a Chief to compel villagers to attend a baraza than for an MP to summon a community meeting. Scrapping these positions will be a power advantage for MPs who wish to continue serving as MPs; and still an advantage for MPs wishing to now become Governors or Senators. They see an opportunity – they will likely seize it.
MPs aspiring to be governors don’t want to empower the PA which would then compete with them (for influence and power) in future. MPs will also confess that under the old Katiba, to even conduct a Harambee, they had to literally cow-tow to the Provincial Administration. It is anybody’s guess what MPs will want to do regarding this situation; to eliminate the need to bow down to the PA.
On the matter of PCs, I don’t even think that title or vocabulary should exist anymore. There are no provinces anymore; why retain PCs? On DCs, Dos etc…whatever new role they assume must recognize that County Governors will be the duly elected executives of those counties. Common sense dictates that their role becomes balanced between the two levels of government.
If we are genuinely serious about dismantling the Imperial Presidency (as the new Katiba requires), we must appreciate that the PA has always been the naughty hand perpetuating suppression. If we are serious about sharing power between the national and county governments, then the PA must give room for emergence of elected leadership in counties.
In terms of security, the OP should recognize that county security is part and parcel of national security. It is silly to expect that 47 elected county governors should be excluded from national security matters; strictly shielding security within the OP and PA. There should be collaborative and cooperative governance if unity is to be maintained. There is no need inviting unwarranted suspicions between county governments and the national government.
Coming to the vexing question of land! I know this informs a big part of the nervousness by the OP when it comes to the PA. The OP doesn’t want to let go the PA partly because it hopes to cling onto the security apparatus within the PA; so as to maintain an eye on individual parcels of land scattered across various counties. This will be dangerous attitude. Elected county governments must have a role to play in safeguarding public land within their jurisdictions. The national land commission will also have its separate functions safeguarding state land including national forests among other functions. But trying to squeeze the PA as a buffer between county governments and certain commercial land interests will be direct courting of disaster. Kibaki’s current move must be critically interrogated with this point in mind.
Lastly, Kibaki himself should be the last man to start fretting about possibility of county governments creating ethno-political identities because he superbly failed to unite Kenya and reduce ethnic tensions throughout his tenure. Ever since he rejected unifying all constituent members of NARC in preference for ethnic cocoons; there has been entrenchment of politics of exclusion, isolation, tribalization and marginalization.
Today, Kibaki gleefully watches the perpetuation of hate rallies along the tribal-divide-and-rule paradigm. In my view, the PA may have very limited role in stopping Kenya’s slide towards the direction of counties that are self-defined by ethnic identities. That horse already bolted from the stable – the moment the colonial-carved 47 counties were listed in the Katiba. Kenyans should accept the new devolution structure where power is shared between counties and the national government.
Article 179 of the Constitution requires that all county executive authority and its exercise be vested in the County Executive Committee (CEC) headed by an elected governor and his or her deputy. County governments are empowered by Article 183: Clause 1 (a-d) to implement county legislation, manage and coordinate county administration and their departments including functions conferred to them by national legislation. County governments will also create county public service mechanisms responsible for creating offices, recruiting, promoting and disciplining public servants within their jurisdictions. This means they will have their own bureaucracies – not the PA - to enable them to better serve their citizens. A president’s hand-picked PA should/must not interfere with the county bureaucracy.
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Post by mank on Feb 29, 2012 0:17:44 GMT 3
One minor point: the constitution does NOT say, there shall be a PC. It does NOT say there shall be NO PC. There is no constitutionally recognised office called PC. That's not a minor point in this. It is actually the main (if the not only) point I see in that response. Then add to it this, from the constitution: Now it should be clear why I say we are on the pre-referendum battleground. The battles we chose not to fight we now must fight or give in to those more determined.
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Post by adongo23456 on Feb 29, 2012 0:46:19 GMT 3
One minor point: the constitution does NOT say, there shall be a PC. It does NOT say there shall be NO PC. There is no constitutionally recognised office called PC. That's not a minor point in this. It is actually the main (if the not only) point I see in that response. Then add to it this, from the constitution: Now it should be clear why I say we are on the pre-referendum battleground. The battles we chose not to fight we now must fight or give in to those more determined. mank,There is one question you folks have not answered. What exactly are the PCs, DCs, DOs and Chiefs going to do for the national government? What is their job description? What duties and responsibilities will they be tasked to do? Where are those duties provided for in the constitution? It is not enough to just keep saying that the PA system has to be restructured in five years. What will they be restructured to do? If any of you can bother to answer that question you will find out just how irrelevant the PCs, DCs and DOs are. There is no provision in the new constitution indicating that the PCs, DCs, DOs etc have to be retained. Those positions can be eliminated or re-assigned to align with the devolved system of governance as part of the restructuring constitutionally provided for. Restructuring does not and cannot mean retaining the old system. People should not confuse restructuring the PA system with keeping the PCs, DCs and DOs when they don't even have a job description that is consistent with the constitution. People need to get into the solutions business. That is what will move the chains up. I don't see that from those telling us that somehow the constitution got the country into some kind of a bind. The status quo is not an option. That is where we have to start from.
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on Feb 29, 2012 2:19:25 GMT 3
LEST WE FORGET: The Struggle Continues.....kenyapolitical.blogspot.com/2010/01/miguna-miguna-remembering-father-of.htmlMiguna Miguna: Remembering father of Kenya devolution - The Star.by Kenya Website Experts on Saturday, 23 January 2010 at 09:02 · Seven years ago, on a Sunday morning, Dr Crispin Odhiambo Mbai was assassinated in Nairobi by retrogressive political forces that hated change. He was murdered in cold blood for doing his job well. With a brilliant smile that permanently exposed bright cotton white teeth between dimpled cheeks, Dr Mbai was a beautiful man. He had an exceptionally sharp mind and a tender heart. At the time of his death, Dr Mbai was teaching politics at the University of Nairobi and chairing the "devolution group" at the Constitutional Review Conference at Bomas. Dr Mbai was more than a beautiful man, husband and father. Odhiambo wuod Mbai's beauty was more profound than the physical one; it was intellectual, spiritual and humane. He was a full and complete human being - gingerly crafted by God, with an agile mind, a sense of fairness, originality, objectivity and vivacious commitment of purpose, especially on important matters affecting his fellow human beings. Who killed Mbai and why? Someone senselessly killed him on that bright Sunday morning on September 14,2003. A fellow Kenyan brutalised his body and thought that by so doing Dr Mbai's contributions to humanity would be permanently erased. The killers attempted to destroy his legacy and the fruits of his labour. But they failed. Sadly, Dr Mbai's killers are still free, roaming our streets, cities and villages. Why hasn't the government apprehended the perpetrators of this cowardly and grisly crime? Dr Mbai was my friend. We met at the University of Toronto in September 1988, when he was completing his PhD in political science and I was completing a degree programme that I had started at the University of Nairobi but could not finish because some busybodies at Nyayo House had other ideas about me. He gave me hope and inspiration when nearly everyone was resigning to the ravages of dictatorship and the madness of the Big Man syndrome in Kenya. Why did they rob us of Dr Mbai? I have written and spoken with senior government officials in this coalition government — asking, beseeching and coaxing them to assist in unravelling what has now turned into a mystery murder case. First, I was reassured by prominent government officials that diligent efforts were being made to follow all the leads and that sooner or later the culprits would be brought to book. That has not happened. On other occasions, my pestering emails and promptings have been met by either dead silence or blank but otherwise sympathetic expressions. Why has it taken this long to bring the murderers to book? Once, a minister in the first Kibaki government said to me, nonchalantly, that "maybe we should hire you to handle this case". At first, I thought the man was simply expressing exasperation at my unrelenting quiet campaign to see every available stone turned in order to resolve this case. Then it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps the minister saw me as naive and wanted to sound sarcastic; demonstrating how ignorant I might have been about the weighty matters of state secrets that he must have been dealing with. I was, of course, never hired to pursue Mbai's killers. Since his murder, my mind has never resigned. Why has this government been lukewarm in pursuing the trails of the suspected murderers, some of whom were cited in Tanzania by a diligent investigative journalist of the Standard more than five years ago? Dr Mbai was the principal architect of devolution in Kenya's vocabulary. He made the most significant single contribution in explaining this concept to politicians, intellectuals and ordinary citizens alike. He was responsible, almost single-handedly, for ensuring that Bomas delegates fully understood and appreciated how significant devolution would be for their future collective success and development as a united people. Who felt threatened by Dr Mbai's contributions? He believed that Kenyans deserve the space, peace and environment within which they can collectively work to achieve their true identities and national goals as a united and indivisible people. If we cherish the ideals for which Dr Mbai paid the ultimate price, then we must successfully conclude the constitution making process this August in a peaceful manner. Our collective attention should be directed at expressing our sovereignty as a people and in bringing into life our collective vision of a caring, humane, equal and just society. Dr Mbai believed in true and fundamental devolution of government and resources; not chimeras. In all his contributions at Bomas, he asserted the need for Kenyans to determine how much they were taxed, how their taxes were used and where. In essence, he stood and died for the empowerment of all Kenyans, irrespective of their differences. Could this have been the real threat he posed? Can our leaders please explain why justice has not been done in this case?
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Post by mank on Feb 29, 2012 3:38:18 GMT 3
mank,
There is one question you folks have not answered. What exactly are the PCs, DCs, DOs and Chiefs going to do for the national government? What is their job description? What duties and responsibilities will they be tasked to do? Where are those duties provided for in the constitution? Adongo,Its funny you ask me that after you gave me that msomo about not being one to rehash the referendum. That's a question we should have debated pre-referendum, in a bid to reach a consensus as to the value of the article I have posted several times, and whether the article was efficient in view of the goals of the constitutional reform. It is not enough to just keep saying that the PA system has to be restructured in five years.
It is the constitution which says that. What will they be restructured to do? If any of you can bother to answer that question you will find out just how irrelevant the PCs, DCs and DOs are. The question you ask any of us to answer was one the entire nation should have answered before 2010. Remember the position you and others took when myself and others were advocating for the need to review the many dangerously worded articles in the constitution? You called us all sorts of names, including "NO" and "Red" group .. . and melons! Apparently you don't you see the connection between the debate we had then and what is unfolding now. I know you do not like it but I have to say this is exactly the kind of thing that was my concern. There is no provision in the new constitution indicating that the PCs, DCs, DOs etc have to be retained. Certainly there isn't any. But there is the one that confers to the national government the power to restructure the provincial administration - meaning the national government, reading from the same constitution you and I are reading, can provide a restructured PA which includes PCs, DCs, DOs, Chiefs, Sub-chiefs, and any imagination politicians are capable of. If anyone expected that all Kenyans would interprete that article to mean "do away with PCs, DCs, DOs etc", then that person has cognitive difficulties. Those positions can be eliminated or re-assigned to align with the devolved system of governance as part of the restructuring constitutionally provided for. Restructuring does not and cannot mean retaining the old system. People should not confuse restructuring the PA system with keeping the PCs, DCs and DOs when they don't even have a job description that is consistent with the constitution.
I agree. That's the agreement the nation needed to reach before the event of Aug 2010, and to replace that article 17 with a definite statement of the construction of PA. There must have been a reason ambiguity was the choice ... and when some of us expressed weariness, our voices were drowned.
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