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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 2:51:36 GMT 3
Were an intelligent being from space to land in Kenya and given rapid fire introduction to politics or political representation in particular, the first question they will ask is why would an individual charged with serious crimes against humanity even be contemplating to run for office? They will not even need to know what the Constitution says about qualifications for holding public office, let alone vying for the presidency. God’s naturally given common sense would have to lead them to conclude it makes no sense for someone accused of crimes against humanity to at the same time demand to represent the same people he is accused of having been responsible for the murder, rape and displacement of their loved ones. Yet, since confirmation of serious charges of crimes against humanity against them earlier this year, Uhuru and Ruto have been behaving as if these charges are a mere nuisance to be brushed aside. Indeed, right after the confirmation of charges, the duo embarked on extremely reckless and highly charged “prayer rallies” which had nothing to do with prayer but a blatant effort to incite and plant seeds of discord to further divide the country or even stoke violence. Their actions were condemned by peace loving Kenyans, including the Civil Society one can assume the suspects heard an earful from the ICC they wisely heeded and toned down the rhetoric. Granted, after confirmation of the charges, the duo and the other remaining suspects lodged an appeal challenging the ICC’s subject matter jurisdiction over the cases against the now Ocampo-4. One can therefore assume on probably bad legal counsel from their attorneys, the duo were given the advice they should carry on with their political activities as if the confirmation of charges had not occurred simply because of the pending appeal. Fortunately or unfortunately for the duo, the Appeals Chamber has now unanimously dismissed the appeal, meaning the last hurdle to start trial of the cases against the remaining suspects has been passed. There is nothing now short of a small miracle will stop the cases from going to trial at the ICC. This means in simple, practical terms that Uhuru and Ruto must now stop pretending that everything is hanky dory and instead get serious in mounting a defense against these serious charges they face. It will be the height of arrogance and self-elevation to a level of importance unparalleled in history to demand that the duo should nonetheless be allowed to vie for the presidency notwithstanding these serious charges they each face. There are those who argue, and these two suspects obviously believe in the same and that is, their being barred from vying is a windfall for Raila and his own presidential ambitions. That’s nonsense. Raila’s prospects for being reelected as president actually significantly improve, almost like day and night if the two are allowed to vie and that’s a fact only those who don’t understand Kenyan politics may doubt. Uhuru and Ruto should out of respect of the PEV victims and the unity of our country simply recognize they are in a bad jam they should not drag the rest of the country into their woes. That does not mean they are guilty or that they should be banished. Far from it. As the leaders they claim to be, the duo should simply focus on defending themselves against these serious charges and let the rest of the country focus on electing new leaders. If the two are found not guilty, there will be plenty of time ahead to seek whatever office they fancy and with such an acquittal, it may just be a walk to any of the offices they chose to pursue save for the presidency they still must individually make the case they have the leadership qualities needed to occupy that office. The presidency is not a birthright for anyone. Neither is it an office one must seek regardless of what the constitution says. The constitution sets the minimum criteria and qualifications one must have to be eligible to vie for office, which means one can apply a higher standard and disqualify themselves if necessary. There is no more apt case for such self-disqualification than in this involving Uhuru and Ruto and their quest for the presidency. Both men must rise above politics and put country first and if they do so, there is only one right decision they must reach consistent with anyone with more than deminimis moral values and that is, removing themselves from among those vying for the presidency. It will not be the end of the world if they did so and neither will it be the end of them or Kenya. Uchambuzi Tanaka, omwenga.com/2012/05/24/uhuru-and-ruto-must-now-suspend-their-presidential-ambitions/ |
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on May 25, 2012 3:45:26 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on May 25, 2012 3:46:00 GMT 3
Omwenga,
Even those who disagree with you often due to their pet projects and political biases will agree that on this thread you have spoken great words of wisdom. The country called Kenya must come first and it will.
All I can add is that Uhuru and Ruto should have removed themselves from the big seat right after the charges on crimes against humanity against them were confirmed. Instead they went into overdrive and have invested billions this far in trying to get to State House. They have been amply helped by State House which is now in a big pickle.
The truth now is simple. Once you put such heavy vessels deep into the sea, you cannot just switch them off and turn them around overnight. These things take a life of their own.
So listen to this song and tell me how far down the drainage the situation is.
Here we go:
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Post by nalinali on May 25, 2012 4:14:42 GMT 3
Omwenga and Adongo
Omwenga is right on the moral, legal and ethical imperatives which should normally consign Uhuruto to a default non participation corner.But Uhuruto have failed to see the moral and legal dimension to their predicament and have persistently/stubbornly framed the ICC mater in political terms, and in the process drawing quite a passionate even if ethnicized following.
It would seem to me that the only way to deflate this misguided political alibi, to an otherwise serious legal matter, is to let the duo run for presidency and have them beaten on their chosen political terms (I am pretty sure neither has what it takes to win the presidency). It will be good to have them lose the elections, then hauled to the ICC for trial. A stronger message will be sent to their ilk out there.
Let us not give them an excuse to imagine they would be the "natural" choice of/for Kenyans if not for the ICC
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Post by adongo23456 on May 25, 2012 4:51:33 GMT 3
Omwenga and Adongo
Omwenga is right on the moral, legal and ethical imperatives which should normally consign Uhuruto to a default non participation corner.But Uhuruto have failed to see the moral and legal dimension to their predicament and have persistently/stubbornly framed the ICC mater in political terms, and in the process drawing quite a passionate even if ethnicized following. It would seem to me that the only way to deflate this misguided political alibi, to an otherwise serious legal matter, is to let the duo run for presidency and have them beaten on their chosen political terms (I am pretty sure neither has what it takes to win the presidency). It will be good to have them lose the elections, then hauled to the ICC for trial. A stronger message will be sent to their ilk out there. Let us not give them an excuse to imagine they would be the "natural" choice of/for Kenyans if not for the ICC Here are a few observations. 1. Uhuru and Ruto are free to run for the presidency. Our constitution does not stop them. The integrity laws under the present constitution (thanks to the Naivasha butchers) cannot prohibit one from running for office unless already convicted and appeals exhausted yada yada. The constitution only has provisions to STOP you from holding a public office if you are in fault of Chapter Six (Yet to be operationilised). So these guys can run even if they are already marooned at the Hague during the campaigns and elections. Can they win from there? I don't know but I doubt it. 2. If the ICC mob bolt, and Kenya pulls out of the ICC and the suspects become international fugitives during the election period, can they still run and have their names in the ballot? They can't. Kenyans will be after them for trying to ruin their lives. There is a reason Kabuga is not running to be the president of Rwanda. So where does bolting leave Uhuru? Forget Ruto. The big boys at State House don't care about him. 3. If Uhuru and co go to The Hague and face trials, what is their best political formation for the big office? Should Uhuru still be on the dock and on the ballot at the same time? If Uhuru is not on the ballot, can he prop up a proxy? What political impact would that have on the proxy? Worse still, what openings does Uhuru's disappearance from the presidential ballot have in Central Province politics? That is going to be huge. Does Uhuru just order people to go here or there? May be in Kiambu County. Infinite complications as we often say. This is going to be an ongoing conversation. |
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Post by OtishOtish on May 25, 2012 4:56:59 GMT 3
Omwenga: You are absolutely right, but you are talking about very desperate people. And not just desperate but who have, througout their lives, been used to having things their way. These guys cannot think differently. They cannot think about how things might turn out in the long term, whence the absurd games by the government, as well as the misguided actions by the criminals and their lawyers.
They now have to face another problem: Even the ordinary, herd-like Kenyan is adjusting to reality. The "small stuff" (Matsanga, the "UK dossier", etc.) has gone nowhere. So too has the big stuff: even their most ardent supporters no longer readily buy "Raila did us in!", and the threat of "The Might GEMA and The Might KAMATUSA vs. The Hoi Poloi" seems to have fizzled. The Daily Nation has always been a funny publication, and it has become increasingly so in regard to the ICC matter, but they were especially crude today: Late this afternoon, I thought I would check in to see what my compatriots were saying. There were well over 60 comments, amost all of them to the effect that they should go defend themselves and stop being a nuisance to the country. I then left to pick up my kids from school. When I came back the comments were down to 0. Money talks; the other stuff walks.
Going back to the criminals, there is also pure and simple arrogance: they just don't give a stuff about Kenyans and what happened. Imagine, for example, how things would be (wrt to the average mwananchi) if these guys, without necessarily admitting responsibility had all this time gone out of their way to genuinely preach peace and reconciliation, to show genuine concern for the IDPs, those who experienced the horrors first-hand, and the friends and relatives of those who died or suffered during the and after PEV.
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 4:59:22 GMT 3
Thanks Kolonel Brisk,I'll check out the article. |
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Post by joblesscorner on May 25, 2012 5:00:06 GMT 3
Omwenga, Nalinali, Adongo & Co
How about we let the people decide if they should run or not, Have you guys watched the recent county Edition of Eldoret on K24, the folks down there, dont believe the reports.
My Opinion on this matter, Let the people decide. the constitution is the people, for the people.
Will the ICC bring peace to Kenya if the 4 are taken to Hague? For the last 20 years, all the countries that have been divided by ethnicity and political turmoil have been brought together through reconciliation i.e South Africa, Sierra Leone, Liberia, Rwanda. North Ireland, Guinea Bissau etc.
For the folks who reside in DC and Canada, please spare us the spat.
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 5:08:41 GMT 3
Omwenga,Even those who disagree with you often due to their pet projects and political biases will agree that on this thread you have spoken great words of wisdom. The country called Kenya must come first and it will. All I can add is that Uhuru and Ruto should have removed themselves from the big seat right after the charges on crimes against humanity against them were confirmed. Instead they went into overdrive and have invested billions this far in trying to get to State House. They have been amply helped by State House which is now in a big pickle. The truth now is simple. Once you put such heavy vessels deep into the sea, you cannot just switch them off and turn them around overnight. These things take a life of their own. So listen to this song and tell me how far down the drainage the situation is. Here we go: Thanks for the complement; you have spoken wisely as well I, too, hear what you are saying. I have never understood how people who seek top leadership in our country can equally be so reckless and quite frankly uncaring as to what happens to it if they are not getting their way. Worse, are those who would enable and empower them and I know we are dealing with tribalism, ignorance and easy manipulation due to poverty but is there nothing that can be done to turn the tide and force the vessels ashore anyway? First thing that comes to mind is massive re-orientation and aided attitudinal readjustments at least with a significant portion of the populace to make the difference, in addition to those who have moved on to the future. P.S. I am pressed with time to listen to the song but I will. |
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Post by OtishOtish on May 25, 2012 5:15:51 GMT 3
Here are a few observations. 1. Uhuru and Ruto are free to run for the presidency. Our constitution does not stop them. The integrity laws under the present constitution (thanks to the Naivasha butchers) cannot prohibit one from running for office unless already convicted and appeals exhausted yada yada. The constitution only has provisions to STOP you from holding a public office if you are in fault of Chapter Six (Yet to be operationilised). So these guys can run even if they are already marooned at the Hague during the campaigns and elections. Can they win from there? I don't know but I doubt it. It is indeed funny that our laws will stop you if you've been charged with fiddling the account books but not if you've been charged with the most heinous crimes known to humanity. Bemba actually tried to run from his cell at the Hague; he found it tricky. Uhuru has to run in order to cut a deal (handing over Central voters) with Mudavadi. Ruto is, as you imply, no more than cannon fodder. I actually think that the real unknown here is Kibaki. The evidence given to the ICC shows clearly that the NSIS knew Operation Kibaki Again was a Mungiki front. The same evidence shows that OKA people were at State House and met Kibaki. Are we to believe that the NSIS, mindful of presidential security, allowed Mungiki into State House without informing the people there? Are we to believe that Kibaki never asked who the OKA people were but nevertheless welcomed them into his home? I think Ocampo may have made the very wise decision that getting Kibaki into the mix at that delicate time would have destabilized the country. But, as a very experienced prosecutor, he must also know what the evidence will finally show. Kibaki too must know something; I am not convinced that the huge battle to save The Prince and The Mandarin are rooted in just paternal affection and loyalty. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 5:25:51 GMT 3
Omwenga and Adongo
Omwenga is right on the moral, legal and ethical imperatives which should normally consign Uhuruto to a default non participation corner.But Uhuruto have failed to see the moral and legal dimension to their predicament and have persistently/stubbornly framed the ICC mater in political terms, and in the process drawing quite a passionate even if ethnicized following. It would seem to me that the only way to deflate this misguided political alibi, to an otherwise serious legal matter, is to let the duo run for presidency and have them beaten on their chosen political terms (I am pretty sure neither has what it takes to win the presidency). It will be good to have them lose the elections, then hauled to the ICC for trial. A stronger message will be sent to their ilk out there. Let us not give them an excuse to imagine they would be the "natural" choice of/for Kenyans if not for the ICC You are so right about the ethnicized following of these duo and this really concerns me not necessarily as to its impact but why? Why would even educated professionals say as I have seen in some of these fora that they will vote for Uhuru or Ruto even if they are locked up? What accounts for this? Is it blind tribalism, ignorance, hate or some combination of all three? It's a horrifying phenomena but must be tackled face on. Not easy but I am an optimist and believe we can overcome this by ensuring we reorient and aid in the readjusting of attitudes among the willing and the key here is the "willing." Having some people change their attitudes or minds is like pulling a nail deep into a piece of wood with teeth so let's forget about pulling the nails with teeth and use nail removal tools. These cool be anything but primarily tactical. As for your point these dudes should be allowed to vie in order to "deflate this political alibi," I was actually conflicted about this point and even indicated a few days ago elsewhere that I am of the view they should be allowed to vie. I have only taken the position I have upon further thinking simply because to accept the alternative is to say we cannot demand of our leaders to adhere to a higher moral and ethical conduct beyond the rule of law were that essential for the welfare of our country and I don't believe that's something one can be proud of at all. I'll rather these demands are made anyway and hold these people's feet to the fire and see what comes of it. Hope this is clear but I am obviously still struggling with it. There is, however, no question in my mind as you have equally noted that it's the legal, moral and ethical imperatives that should inform our politics. The trick is how to make others, especially the masses see and understand this for if they do and agree, the battle is over. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 5:34:55 GMT 3
Omwenga: You are absolutely right, but you are talking about very desperate people. And not just desperate but who have, througout their lives, been used to having things their way. These guys cannot think differently. They cannot think about how things might turn out in the long term, whence the absurd games by the government, as well as the misguided actions by the criminals and their lawyers. They now have to face another problem: Even the ordinary, herd-like Kenyan is adjusting to reality. The "small stuff" (Matsanga, the "UK dossier", etc.) has gone nowhere. So too has the big stuff: even their most ardent supporters no longer readily buy "Raila did us in!", and the threat of "The Might GEMA and The Might KAMATUSA vs. The Hoi Poloi" seems to have fizzled. The Daily Nation has always been a funny publication, and it has become increasingly so in regard to the ICC matter, but they were especially crude today: Late this afternoon, I thought I would check in to see what my compatriots were saying. There were well over 60 comments, amost all of them to the effect that they should go defend themselves and stop being a nuisance to the country. I then left to pick up my kids from school. When I came back the comments were down to 0. Money talks; the other stuff walks. Going back to the criminals, there is also pure and simple arrogance: they just don't give a stuff about Kenyans and what happened. Imagine, for example, how things would be (wrt to the average mwananchi) if these guys, without necessarily admitting responsibility had all this time gone out of their way to genuinely preach peace and reconciliation, to show genuine concern for the IDPs, those who experienced the horrors first-hand, and the friends and relatives of those who died or suffered during the and after PEV. I alluded to much of what you have said in your opening paragraph in my blog the other day urging politicians to elevate our politics beyond lies, distortions and innuendo which clearly people are now clearly tired of or about to; a good proportion, anyway. You are, of course, right on about the arrogance and don't care attitude displayed by these two. Ditto for lost opportunities. When all is said and done, there will be a lot of regretting by these two but, as they say, it's never too late. Right now a doze of great humility and humbleness is in order lest the gallows call for sure. |
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Post by OtishOtish on May 25, 2012 5:54:40 GMT 3
Omwenga, Nalinali, Adongo & Co
How about we let the people decide if they should run or not, Have you guys watched the recent county Edition of Eldoret on K24, the folks down there, dont believe the reports. My Opinion on this matter, Let the people decide. the constitution is the peopl e, for the people.
There is actually something called the "tyranny of the majority" , and that is where ethics and, especially the law, comes in. Put yourself back in America or wherever in the time of the slave trade and then saying the matter of slavery should be settled by letting the people decide. Or Nazi Germany on the Jews: let the people decide. Or Hutu vs. Tutsi: let the people decide. I mention this because, like many of our compatriots overseas, I have to live alongside quite a few racists, and I am glad to have the law in certain things. I'd hate to think about what the situation would be if we had to "let the people decide". Some things simply can't be decided by majority vote, and here we have one of them. Saying "the constitution is the people" is all very well, if all one wants is to appear broad-minded or whatever. But beyond that, i.e. the when dealing with reality, it is plainly silly: The constitution is the not people. It is the law. It is written down and can be read by all. And it is to be applied. The people you have been talking into in Eldoret---and I know it can't be all of them, because it I too talk to people there---must be blockheads if they think it's fine to bar someone who has been been charged with pick-pocketing but not someone who has been charged with murder, rape, pillage, etc. [/quote] First, people must be punished for their crimes. (see Sierra Loeone, Rwanda, Liberia, etc.) Second, as regards the idea of reconciliation, it doesn't help when people not only refuse to acknowledge what they have done but go overboard in stirring up new problems. Kenya has 40 million people. That 4 must pay for their deeds need not stop the remaining 39,999,996 from reconciling. What stops them is the 4 criminals still working at what got them where they are. By the way, the criminals are already paying lobbyists very big bucks to sell this line of "let us go free in the interests of peace". And we are here talking of "big"people who, for serious money, can get "opinion" articles in the leading dailies in the countries we beg from, talk to the people who have their hands on the money-spigots. So, while we admire your little sling-shot on behalf on The Hon. W. S. Ruto, we must say no thank you. No reconciliation without justice. Please pass that message to your Eldoret and K24 friends. Oh, and to The Hon WSR: face the ICC lion like the warrior you claim to be. [/quote] Phew! Thankfully, that doesn't include me. I know them quite well. Pests and radical trouble-makers, all of them. |
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Post by mwalimumkuu on May 25, 2012 6:03:21 GMT 3
Omwenga,
Sorry to spoil your victory parade with the usual suspects. Kenya is a country established and run on the rule of law. As Adongo reminds you (although a very recent/changed position on his part), there is nothing in our constitution and the Rome statute that otherwise bars these leaders of ours from running for any office for any reason leave alone tramped up charges.
The democracy that we have fought for all along, is such that, we operate on a similar principle as that of willing buyer willing seller. Such that, if Ruto or Uhuru or both offer themselves for any elective position, and the majority of the natives within the jurisdiction they seek to be elected feel that they are the right material,they should have the job.
Otherwise using some very mundane arguments like the ones you introduce here can only serve to entrench a very dangerous practice, where those with the capability of locking anyone out of elective office will always connive to achieve these ends regardless.
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Post by job on May 25, 2012 6:18:48 GMT 3
Omwenga,
Within your analysis - there's the clincher that Raila's prospects actually rise with the duo running. That's why I beg to differ with your asking of Uhuru and Ruto to suspend their respective campaigns. Let the warlords run!!!
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Post by OtishOtish on May 25, 2012 6:26:10 GMT 3
Omwenga,Sorry to spoil your victory parade with the usual suspects. I can't speak for Omwenga, but I did have something of a small celebration tonight---a very nice bottle of wine with a few compatriots. I'm probably going to need a liver transplant when the door slams shut on that 12-by-12 cage. Lest I be misunderstood in the future, let me make clear: In light of what happened during the PEV, I definitely want the worst for these 4 fellows. I know it's un-Christian or un-Something to feel that way, but there you have it: I wish them ill. A lot of it. You must have some secret information. Better pass it on, real quick, to the criminals and their lawyers. Look, that line has been beaten to death with Raila did this to us and Raila did that. It really doesn't work, even if one is trying to be sly about it. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 6:46:24 GMT 3
Omwenga,Sorry to spoil your victory parade with the usual suspects. Kenya is a country established and run on the rule of law. As Adongo reminds you (although a very recent/changed position on his part), there is nothing in our constitution and the Rome statute that otherwise bars these leaders of ours from running for any office for any reason leave alone tramped up charges. The democracy that we have fought for all along, is such that, we operate on a similar principle as that of willing buyer willing seller. Such that, if Ruto or Uhuru or both offer themselves for any elective position, and the majority of the natives within the jurisdiction they seek to be elected feel that they are the right material,they should have the job. Otherwise using some very mundane arguments like the ones you introduce here can only serve to entrench a very dangerous practice, where those with the capability of locking anyone out of elective office will always connive to achieve these ends regardless. It appears you have missed what I am arguing it might serve you better to read Nalinali's comment in response to my piece which might help clarify for you where I am coming from. In short, I am arguing that the two should remove themselves from the field of candidates for reasons that go beyond the constitution. BTW, no victory parade yet; that shall be the day after Raila is reelected and sworn as president. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 6:51:55 GMT 3
Omwenga, Nalinali, Adongo & Co
How about we let the people decide if they should run or not, Have you guys watched the recent county Edition of Eldoret on K24, the folks down there, dont believe the reports. My Opinion on this matter, Let the people decide. the constitution is the peopl e, for the people.
There is actually something called the "tyranny of the majority" , and that is where ethics and, especially the law, comes in. Put yourself back in America or wherever in the time of the slave trade and then saying the matter of slavery should be settled by letting the people decide. Or Nazi Germany on the Jews: let the people decide. Or Hutu vs. Tutsi: let the people decide. I mention this because, like many of our compatriots overseas, I have to live alongside quite a few racists, and I am glad to have the law in certain things. I'd hate to think about what the situation would be if we had to "let the people decide". Some things simply can't be decided by majority vote, and here we have one of them. Saying "the constitution is the people" is all very well, if all one wants is to appear broad-minded or whatever. But beyond that, i.e. the when dealing with reality, it is plainly silly: The constitution is the not people. It is the law. It is written down and can be read by all. And it is to be applied. The people you have been talking into in Eldoret---and I know it can't be all of them, because it I too talk to people there---must be blockheads if they think it's fine to bar someone who has been been charged with pick-pocketing but not someone who has been charged with murder, rape, pillage, etc. First, people must be punished for their crimes. (see Sierra Loeone, Rwanda, Liberia, etc.) Second, as regards the idea of reconciliation, it doesn't help when people not only refuse to acknowledge what they have done but go overboard in stirring up new problems. Kenya has 40 million people. That 4 must pay for their deeds need not stop the remaining 39,999,996 from reconciling. What stops them is the 4 criminals still working at what got them where they are. By the way, the criminals are already paying lobbyists very big bucks to sell this line of "let us go free in the interests of peace". And we are here talking of "big"people who, for serious money, can get "opinion" articles in the leading dailies in the countries we beg from, talk to the people who have their hands on the money-spigots. So, while we admire your little sling-shot on behalf on The Hon. W. S. Ruto, we must say no thank you. No reconciliation without justice. Please pass that message to your Eldoret and K24 friends. Oh, and to The Hon WSR: face the ICC lion like the warrior you claim to be. [/quote] Phew! Thankfully, that doesn't include me. I know them quite well. Pests and radical trouble-makers, all of them.[/quote] Otishotish,Excellent analysis. Nothing to add at all and I am fairly certain it has informed those who never saw the nefariousness of majority rule from this angle, starting from the proponent in this case. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 6:59:03 GMT 3
Omwenga,Within your analysis - there's the clincher that Raila's prospects actually rise with the duo running. That's why I beg to differ with your asking of Uhuru and Ruto to suspend their respective campaigns. Let the warlords run!!! I know exactly what you are saying and hope you have seen my earlier comment in response to Nalinalion the same point? |
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Post by stibin on May 25, 2012 9:37:27 GMT 3
Those who followed the recent vetting of court of appeal judges know that 4 long-serving learned men (Riaga, Bosire, O’kubasu and Nyamu) had to vacate public offices because they were accused of ‘small’ crimes including inconsistency in handling cases, conflict of interest, making biased judgments and taking bribes among others. However before Public Ethics Act and the new constitution came into the picture, the non-compliance issues mentioned above could easily pass as the normal way of conducting business in public offices. It’s clear these two laws raised the ethics bar to the point of causing discomfort to some people.
So what makes it Ok for Uhuru and Ruto who are accused of more serious crimes like rape, murder, displacing people e.t.c to hold public office ? Why the double standards? Or are the two above the law?
Hope you see the point I am trying to hammer home.
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Post by adongo23456 on May 25, 2012 13:54:06 GMT 3
Omwenga,Sorry to spoil your victory parade with the usual suspects. Kenya is a country established and run on the rule of law. As Adongo reminds you (although a very recent/changed position on his part), there is nothing in our constitution and the Rome statute that otherwise bars these leaders of ours from running for any office for any reason leave alone tramped up charges. The democracy that we have fought for all along, is such that, we operate on a similar principle as that of willing buyer willing seller. Such that, if Ruto or Uhuru or both offer themselves for any elective position, and the majority of the natives within the jurisdiction they seek to be elected feel that they are the right material,they should have the job. Otherwise using some very mundane arguments like the ones you introduce here can only serve to entrench a very dangerous practice, where those with the capability of locking anyone out of elective office will always connive to achieve these ends regardless. My position has always been the same. Uhuru and Ruto are free to run but were Uhuru to actually win he cannot hold the office of the president of the republic of Kenya while at The Hague. If Uhuru got elected and he is at The Hague or in the bushes hiding, any Kenyan can then go to court and file a case against them based on Integrity clauses however much parliament manipulates them. The provisions on conflict of interest alone will knock them out because as president you have to serve the interests of Kenya first. If you are at the Hague or a fugitive your self interests are such that you will have to sabotage the interests of the nation to serve yours. The only argument has been from those who say there is no modality to actually remove the president from office without impechment in parliament even if they were to be declared unfit to hold office. That to me is nonsense. Once the president is declared unfit to hold office even if parliament were to protect them such presidents cannot even sign the laws of Kenya since such laws will be declared null and void. Effectively a court ruling declaring a president unfit to hold office will give parliament no alternative but to impeach them. The problem with people like you is that you do not bother to put any thinking into the positions you take and that is why you get surprised when adongo says the law does not stop accused mass killers from contesting. Go back to the very first thread on this issue and you will see my reasoning. The short end of it is that Uhuru will not see the inside of State House in this round of elections. It is up to him to choose which way not to go there. The man has to choose his poison. That is not a very good choice. The tragedy for some Uhuru supporters like you is that you actually believe the hype that your man is headed to State House. You are going to face a painful clash with reality and I think folks like Uhuru owe it to their supporters to start preparing them for the inevitable truth. It is coming. Some people are going to need soft landing and it is Uhuru's job to start breaking it down to them slowly. If there is no soft landing it will be face first with a thud on the pavement for some fellas. Shauri yao. |
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Post by OtishOtish on May 25, 2012 17:35:31 GMT 3
Adongo: Another major problem with Uhuru's supporters is that they can't even imagine a future that goes beyond 2013. Let us suppose that Uhuru does, by some miracle, manage to become president. How long will he be there? And after that what? It's not as though the ICC and its charges will disappear during that presidency.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on May 25, 2012 17:51:28 GMT 3
Omwenga,Sorry to spoil your victory parade with the usual suspects. Kenya is a country established and run on the rule of law. As Adongo reminds you (although a very recent/changed position on his part), there is nothing in our constitution and the Rome statute that otherwise bars these leaders of ours from running for any office for any reason leave alone tramped up charges. The democracy that we have fought for all along, is such that, we operate on a similar principle as that of willing buyer willing seller. Such that, if Ruto or Uhuru or both offer themselves for any elective position, and the majority of the natives within the jurisdiction they seek to be elected feel that they are the right material,they should have the job. Otherwise using some very mundane arguments like the ones you introduce here can only serve to entrench a very dangerous practice, where those with the capability of locking anyone out of elective office will always connive to achieve these ends regardless. My position has always been the same. Uhuru and Ruto are free to run but were Uhuru to actually win he cannot hold the office of the president of the republic of Kenya while at The Hague. If Uhuru got elected and he is at The Hague or in the bushes hiding, any Kenyan can then go to court and file a case against them based on Integrity clauses however much parliament manipulates them. The provisions on conflict of interest alone will knock them out because as president you have to serve the interests of Kenya first. If you are at the Hague or a fugitive your self interests are such that you will have to sabotage the interests of the nation to serve yours. The only argument has been from those who say there is no modality to actually remove the president from office without impechment in parliament even if they were to be declared unfit to hold office. That to me is nonsense. Once the president is declared unfit to hold office even if parliament were to protect them such presidents cannot even sign the laws of Kenya since such laws will be declared null and void. Effectively a court ruling declaring a president unfit to hold office will give parliament no alternative but to impeach them. The problem with people like you is that you do not bother to put any thinking into the positions you take and that is why you get surprised when adongo says the law does not stop accused mass killers from contesting. Go back to the very first thread on this issue and you will see my reasoning. The short end of it is that Uhuru will not see the inside of State House in this round of elections. It is up to him to chosse which way not to go there. The man has to choose his poison. That is not a very good choice. The tragedy for some Uhuru supporters like you is that you actually believe the hype that your man is headed to State House. You are going to face a painful clash with reality and I think folks like Uhuru owe it to their supporters to start preparing them for the inevitable truth. It is coming. Some people are going to need soft landing and it is Uhuru's job to start breaking it down to them slowly. If there is no soft landing it will be face first with a thud on the pavement for some fellas. Shauri yao. Not that changing your mind is anything bad, no. After all wise people do this all the time. Jukwaa has archives and anyone who wants to follow this issue from the start can do so if they so wish. I have no problem with people editing their thesis to conform to reality, that is what we teach our students all the time. I am therefore not condemning you, but only appreciating and taking note of a recent historical happening. I have consistently stated here the issue of Uhuru and not Ruto running or not running is a personal decision, a moral decision as opposed to a legal one. Many of you were cheated by Mutula Kilonzo into believing that, oh you can just pull chapter six from the constitution and kaboom, there you are, you stop these guys from running. Haiwezekani ndugu yangu. Between, who is this that lied to you that I am an Uhuru supporter? I am not and I have stated here on numerous occasions, and I will repeat for those of you who are hard of hearing and understanding, that I am not here to support any body but the right idea. If that right idea is Uhuru for president, so be it, and if that idea is Raila must retire, again I will be there supporting it. I am only interested in a leadership that will transform Kenya. |
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Post by Omwenga on May 25, 2012 19:04:10 GMT 3
Between, who is this that lied to you that I am an Uhuru supporter? I am not and I have stated here on numerous occasions, and I will repeat for those of you who are hard of hearing and understanding, that I am not here to support any body but the right idea. If that right idea is Uhuru for president, so be it, and if that idea is Raila must retire, again I will be there supporting it. I am only interested in a leadership that will transform Kenya. . If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and it looks like a duck, it must be a duck. The closing sentence in the boxed quote is fallacious. |
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Post by okolowaka on May 25, 2012 19:21:53 GMT 3
It is well worth noting that in the case of Deputy CJ Nancy Barasa, pinching the nose of a security guard and brandishing a pistol with the aim of intimidating the said security guard cost her big time. Her violation of the ethics and integrity standards expected of the holder of such a high office has questioned her suitability to hold office. Uhuru and Ruto are suspected of assisting and participating in mass murder among other high crimes against humanity! In this case barring these suspects of such serious crimes from seeking public office is no way an infringement on their right to seek public office. The ethics and integrity standards set for the holder of the highest office in the land cannot be suspended or bent in favor of Uhuru and Ruto. Kenya cannot risk having a wanted fugitive running for president just because he believes this office will grant him immunity from arrest or prosecution. Kenya is cleaning house and Uhuru and Ruto cannot and should not stop the process... May they both get 80-to-life... Thank God for the ICC....
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