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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 3, 2013 4:02:50 GMT 3
A few days ago Trial Chamber V issued two major decisions, on the Documents Containing Charges. Both the Defence and the OTP have been given their share of small victories from the Judicial High Table, but, on whole, I suspect the former will come away less happy (especially in the Uhuru-Muthaura case). Quote: 22. Therefore, in the Chamber's view, the Confirmation Decision cannot be expected to serve as the only authoritative statement of the charges for the trial. The Chamber is of the view that the description of the charges in the DCC, amended to harmonise it with the findings made in the Confirmation Decision, provides a sufficiently authoritative statement of the charges relevant to the trial proceedings.Chalk up one for Bensouda. (And read carefully the full decision before any excitement on behalf of the scoundrels.) www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532400.pdfwww.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532402.pdfA couple of points worth noting: * The court is very clear about Maina Njenga being in the thick of it and agrees with the Defence that he should get more of the spotlight. (See also the annex to the decision.) Are you there, CORD, with Reform & Democracy at the ready? No, not you, Grundig; I mean serious people. * And General Ali still comes in for a mention, and it's not one he will be thrilled with. (See also annex to the decision.) "It is thus consistent with the Confirmation Decision to retain the allegations regarding instructions issued by Mr Muthaura to Major General Ali, in so far as they are of relevance to Mr Muthaura's overall role in the alleged commission of the crimes. The Chamber finds the allegations regarding instructions to members of the Kenya Police other than Major General Ali to be similarly relevant to Mr Muthaura's overall role."In other matters: the Disclosure Period designated by the court ends on Jan 9. It is by now clear that a great deal of the most damning staff that the OTP has (as well as the origins) will not be available to the Defence by then. So, between now and 4 March there will be a period when Uhuru and Ruto will, pretty much, be flying blind. That should be fun; let them sweat a bit longer. As per established pattern, things to do with The Prince and The Mandarin, are always less tidy but more interesting. Neverthless, there are a few points worth noting in the other case, in which the Defence didn't come off too badly. My score for this round: Case 1: Bensouda-1, Perps-1 Case 2: Bensouda-2, Perps-1
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Post by kamalet on Jan 3, 2013 11:14:32 GMT 3
A few days ago Trial Chamber V issued two major decisions, on the Documents Containing Charges. Both the Defence and the OTP have been given their share of small victories from the Judicial High Table, but, on whole, I suspect the former will come away less happy (especially in the Uhuru-Muthaura case). Quote: 22. Therefore, in the Chamber's view, the Confirmation Decision cannot be expected to serve as the only authoritative statement of the charges for the trial. The Chamber is of the view that the description of the charges in the DCC, amended to harmonise it with the findings made in the Confirmation Decision, provides a sufficiently authoritative statement of the charges relevant to the trial proceedings.Chalk up one for Bensouda. (And read carefully the full decision before any excitement on behalf of the scoundrels.) www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532400.pdfwww.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532402.pdfA couple of points worth noting: * The court is very clear about Maina Njenga being in the thick of it and agrees with the Defence that he should get more of the spotlight. (See also the annex to the decision.) Are you there, CORD, with Reform & Democracy at the ready? No, not you, Grundig; I mean serious people. * And General Ali still comes in for a mention, and it's not one he will be thrilled with. (See also annex to the decision.) "It is thus consistent with the Confirmation Decision to retain the allegations regarding instructions issued by Mr Muthaura to Major General Ali, in so far as they are of relevance to Mr Muthaura's overall role in the alleged commission of the crimes. The Chamber finds the allegations regarding instructions to members of the Kenya Police other than Major General Ali to be similarly relevant to Mr Muthaura's overall role."In other matters: the Disclosure Period designated by the court ends on Jan 9. It is by now clear that a great deal of the most damning staff that the OTP has (as well as the origins) will not be available to the Defence by then. So, between now and 4 March there will be a period when Uhuru and Ruto will, pretty much, be flying blind. That should be fun; let them sweat a bit longer. As per established pattern, things to do with The Prince and The Mandarin, are always less tidy but more interesting. Neverthless, there are a few points worth noting in the other case, in which the Defence didn't come off too badly. My score for this round: Case 1: Bensouda-1, Perps-1 Case 2: Bensouda-2, Perps-1 Otishotish You provide a good service following the cases, but your apparent lack of objectivity unfortunately raises the suspicion that you only react to the Bensouda positives and mask her failures (or successes of the suspects!).
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Post by furaha on Jan 3, 2013 12:56:16 GMT 3
A few days ago Trial Chamber V issued two major decisions, on the Documents Containing Charges. Both the Defence and the OTP have been given their share of small victories from the Judicial High Table, but, on whole, I suspect the former will come away less happy (especially in the Uhuru-Muthaura case). Quote: 22. Therefore, in the Chamber's view, the Confirmation Decision cannot be expected to serve as the only authoritative statement of the charges for the trial. The Chamber is of the view that the description of the charges in the DCC, amended to harmonise it with the findings made in the Confirmation Decision, provides a sufficiently authoritative statement of the charges relevant to the trial proceedings.Chalk up one for Bensouda. (And read carefully the full decision before any excitement on behalf of the scoundrels.) www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532400.pdfwww.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1532402.pdfA couple of points worth noting: * The court is very clear about Maina Njenga being in the thick of it and agrees with the Defence that he should get more of the spotlight. (See also the annex to the decision.) Are you there, CORD, with Reform & Democracy at the ready? No, not you, Grundig; I mean serious people. * And General Ali still comes in for a mention, and it's not one he will be thrilled with. (See also annex to the decision.) "It is thus consistent with the Confirmation Decision to retain the allegations regarding instructions issued by Mr Muthaura to Major General Ali, in so far as they are of relevance to Mr Muthaura's overall role in the alleged commission of the crimes. The Chamber finds the allegations regarding instructions to members of the Kenya Police other than Major General Ali to be similarly relevant to Mr Muthaura's overall role."In other matters: the Disclosure Period designated by the court ends on Jan 9. It is by now clear that a great deal of the most damning staff that the OTP has (as well as the origins) will not be available to the Defence by then. So, between now and 4 March there will be a period when Uhuru and Ruto will, pretty much, be flying blind. That should be fun; let them sweat a bit longer. As per established pattern, things to do with The Prince and The Mandarin, are always less tidy but more interesting. Neverthless, there are a few points worth noting in the other case, in which the Defence didn't come off too badly. My score for this round: Case 1: Bensouda-1, Perps-1 Case 2: Bensouda-2, Perps-1 Otishotish You provide a good service following the cases, but your apparent lack of objectivity unfortunately raises the suspicion that you only react to the Bensouda positives and mask her failures (or successes of the suspects!). Kamale,
For those of us who do not have time to read the two decisions in full until the weekend, would you mind elaborating your comment on Otishotish lack of objectivity, please?
You have obviously read the two decisions and have reached your conclusion based on what the trial chamber actually said. I look forward to being enlightened. Thank you,
Furaha
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 3, 2013 17:25:07 GMT 3
s-1] Otishotish You provide a good service following the cases, but your apparent lack of objectivity unfortunately raises the suspicion that you only react to the Bensouda positives and mask her failures (or successes of the suspects!). Such a comment, without any substance to back it up, is what I call an apparent lack of objectivity. By the way, did you see the bit "both the Defence and the OTP have been given their share of small victories", right at the start?
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Post by kamalet on Jan 4, 2013 13:57:22 GMT 3
Chalk up one for Bensouda. (And read carefully the full decision before any excitement on behalf of the scoundrels.) In other matters: the Disclosure Period designated by the court ends on Jan 9. It is by now clear that a great deal of the most damning staff that the OTP has (as well as the origins) will not be available to the Defence by then. So, between now and 4 March there will be a period when Uhuru and Ruto will, pretty much, be flying blind. That should be fun; let them sweat a bit longer.As per established pattern, things to do with The Prince and The Mandarin, are always less tidy but more interesting. Case 1: Bensouda-1, Perps-1 Case 2: Bensouda-2, Perps-1 I think when you see the suspects as scoundrels then surely objectivity has been thrown out of the window!
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 4, 2013 17:02:21 GMT 3
Chalk up one for Bensouda. (And read carefully the full decision before any excitement on behalf of the scoundrels.) In other matters: the Disclosure Period designated by the court ends on Jan 9. It is by now clear that a great deal of the most damning staff that the OTP has (as well as the origins) will not be available to the Defence by then. So, between now and 4 March there will be a period when Uhuru and Ruto will, pretty much, be flying blind. That should be fun; let them sweat a bit longer.As per established pattern, things to do with The Prince and The Mandarin, are always less tidy but more interesting. Case 1: Bensouda-1, Perps-1 Case 2: Bensouda-2, Perps-1 I think when you see the suspects as scoundrels then surely objectivity has been thrown out of the window! "Scoundrels" is a very objective term, based on the following reasoning. First, Ruto is a guy who came out of university, tried his hand at teaching, and decided that electoral violence was a quicker path to fame and fortune. And he has been at it since YK92. Second, both guys have deliberately polarized the country, in a tribal manner, by turning their woes into community woes, thus hoping to escape justice. I can think of "better" terms that "scoundrel", but I don't think such language is permitted on Jukwaa. On the basis of the second, all objective citizens should take delight at their getting it in the neck. I am one suh citizen.
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Post by kamalet on Jan 4, 2013 17:34:44 GMT 3
I think when you see the suspects as scoundrels then surely objectivity has been thrown out of the window! "Scoundrels" is a very objective term, based on the following reasoning. First, Ruto is a guy who came out of university, tried his hand at teaching, and decided that electoral violence was a quicker path to fame and fortune. And he has been at it since YK92. Second, both guys have deliberately polarized the country, in a tribal manner, by turning their woes into community woes, thus hoping to escape justice. I can think of "better" terms that "scoundrel", but I don't think such language is permitted on Jukwaa. On the basis of the second, all objective citizens should take delight at their getting it in the neck. I am one suh citizen. Otishotish You should not allow my suggesting that you lack objectivity take away the good work you do. I appreciate where your loyalties lie and respect it too!
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Post by abdulmote on Jan 4, 2013 20:52:11 GMT 3
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 5, 2013 0:03:25 GMT 3
The article is rather misleading. Maina Njenga has always been mentioned, even in the first draft of the new DCC. Uhuru's and Muthaura's complaints have been that he was not mentioned "enough". In their submissions, they pretty much wanted Njena mentioned as a co-perp. 41. The defence seeks the replacement of the term "the Principal Perpetrators", with "Mr Muthaura, Kenyatta and Maina Njenga" in paragraphs 33, 34, 74, and 75 of the Updated DCC. (The judges agree that Maina Njenga should come in for a few more mentions.) What's more, they did not want anyone to know, whence the fight over the "Annex D". Ironically, by fighting over Annex D, they have ended up with the very situation they were trying to avoid, i.e. the media highlighting (be it somewhat innacurately) their efforts to drag in Njenga. But the Defence was probably trying to do more than just stitch up Maina Njenga: the Defence appeared to be trying to limit many related references to crimes to just Maina Njenga (difficult to prove in totality) and away from Mungiki in general (easier). Bensouda has been insisting on both. Court gave each half a loaf. 38. As the prosecution's intention appears to be to adjust the language of the Updated DCC to the conclusions of the Pre-Trial Chamber, the Chamber is of the view that the amendment sought by the prosecution should accurately reflect these conclusions. The defence's proposal to add the words "for the purposes of" is thus justified. As regards the reference to Maina Njenga, the Chamber agrees with the prosecution that the removal of the word Mungiki significantly alters the allegation. The prosecution's proposal to refer to both Maina Njenga and the Mungiki is consistent with the Confirmation Decision and, thus, should be included in the Updated DCC.Similar comments follow elsewhere in the decision. Likewise, in the case of Ali, the paper has it wrong. The issue was not whether or not Ali was mentioned in the first draft; he was, and nobody objected to that. Rather, the issue was whether the OTP could be allowed to claim, not having done so before, that Muthaura had issued instructions to other coppers. The court has agreed that the OTP can. 54. The defence objects to the allegation, at paragraphs 21, 34, 76, 78, and 86 of the Updated DCC, that Mr Muthaura issued instructions to members of the Kenyan Police other than Major General Mohammed Hussein Ali, for the Kenyan Police not to interfere with the attacks. The defence submits that the Confirmation Decision only contains findings regarding instructions to Major General Ali and nobody else ... 55. The Chamber finds the allegations regarding instructions to members of the Kenya Police other than Major General Ali to be similarly relevant to Mr Muthaura's overall role. As the Pre-Trial Chamber did not reject such allegations, the defence's objection is essentially of the type discussed earlier in this Decision and concems the lack of findings on specific issues in the Confirmation Decision. The lack of such findings should not in principle result in the deletion of the corresponding statements of the facts from the DCC. Furthermore, having regard to (i) the non-confirmation of allegations of the involvement of the Kenya Police in the attacks by its deliberate failure to intervene, and (ii) the fact that the allegations regarding the instructions issued by Mr Muthaura can therefore only be examined in a limited context, the Chamber sees no risk of prejudice to the defence...If I were a journalist looking to report on interesting points in these decisions: I'd select something like the issue of police actions in Kibera and Kisumu. Jukwaaists may recall that those actions were "dropped" fairly early on. The OPT has always maintained that it would get back to Kibera and Kisumu, and now Bensouda has managed to slip Kibera back in, and we should expect a "full airing" at trial. Naturally the Defence has howled. Unsuccessfully. 29. The defence seeks the removal of the words "and in the Nairobi slums" from the phrase "Muthaura used his position to instruct the Kenya Police not to interfere with the work of the Mungiki and pro-PNU youth in the Rift Valley and in the Nairobi slums" ... The defence claims that neither of the two paragraphs of the Confirmation Decision relied on by the prosecution in support of the allegations mentions the Nairobi slums and also that the reference to the Nairobi slums goes beyond the geographical remit of the case. ... The reference to the Nairobi slums cannot thus be understood as extending the charges to allegations of crimes committed at that location. In addition, the Chamber notes that the Nairobi slums are only mentioned in the context of Mr Muthaura's alleged instructions to the Kenya Police.The judges indicate that they will try and keep narrow and limited the focus on these references, but in the world of practicalities I have my doubt. In any case, regardless of views on that, as things stand right now, Kibera is in. Contrary to what the Star article claims, i.e. Quote: "The trial judges also asked ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda to remove references to attacks in Nairobi slums from the charges against Uhuru and Muthaura."the judges did not ask for, and there will be no changes, in references to "Nairobi slums": Decision: "Having regard to these considerations, the Chamber is of the view that the allegation relating to the Nairobi slums can only be examined in a limited context. There is thus no risk of expansion of the charges or prejudice to the rights of the accused. The reference may be retained."There are also some other interesting points: "looting" is in, penile amputation categorized as "violence" rather than "sexual violence", etc. There are some interesting points in the Ruto-Sang decision, but I don't consider them to include the naming of the "three commanders", given the conditional nature of that part of the decision. Sang wins one (on some issue of dates) and loses one (in the attempt to restrict his mode of liability). A more interesting point, and it willcome back in the inevitable skirmish over "organization" and the fuzzy "network" is in this statement: 37. The Chamber notes that the Pre-Trial Chamber found in its Confirmation Decision, that "...the intention of Mr Ruto as a member of the group is in itself a sufficient indication of the intention of the group as a whole" ... Conferring the discriminatory purpose of Mr Ruto to the group as a whole, the Chamber considers that the formulation used by the prosecution does not exceed the scope of the charges confirmed by the Pre Trial Chamber.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 6, 2013 9:04:41 GMT 3
The article is rather misleading. Maina Njenga has always been mentioned, even in the first draft of the new DCC. Uhuru's and Muthaura's complaints have been that he was not mentioned "enough". In their submissions, they pretty much wanted Njena mentioned as a co-perp. 41. The defence seeks the replacement of the term "the Principal Perpetrators", with "Mr Muthaura, Kenyatta and Maina Njenga" in paragraphs 33, 34, 74, and 75 of the Updated DCC. (The judges agree that Maina Njenga should come in for a few more mentions.) What's more, they did not want anyone to know, whence the fight over the "Annex D". Ironically, by fighting over Annex D, they have ended up with the very situation they were trying to avoid, i.e. the media highlighting (be it somewhat innacurately) their efforts to drag in Njenga. But the Defence was probably trying to do more than just stitch up Maina Njenga: the Defence appeared to be trying to limit many related references to crimes to just Maina Njenga (difficult to prove in totality) and away from Mungiki in general (easier). Bensouda has been insisting on both. Court gave each half a loaf. 38. As the prosecution's intention appears to be to adjust the language of the Updated DCC to the conclusions of the Pre-Trial Chamber, the Chamber is of the view that the amendment sought by the prosecution should accurately reflect these conclusions. The defence's proposal to add the words "for the purposes of" is thus justified. As regards the reference to Maina Njenga, the Chamber agrees with the prosecution that the removal of the word Mungiki significantly alters the allegation. The prosecution's proposal to refer to both Maina Njenga and the Mungiki is consistent with the Confirmation Decision and, thus, should be included in the Updated DCC.Similar comments follow elsewhere in the decision. Likewise, in the case of Ali, the paper has it wrong. The issue was not whether or not Ali was mentioned in the first draft; he was, and nobody objected to that. Rather, the issue was whether the OTP could be allowed to claim, not having done so before, that Muthaura had issued instructions to other coppers. The court has agreed that the OTP can. 54. The defence objects to the allegation, at paragraphs 21, 34, 76, 78, and 86 of the Updated DCC, that Mr Muthaura issued instructions to members of the Kenyan Police other than Major General Mohammed Hussein Ali, for the Kenyan Police not to interfere with the attacks. The defence submits that the Confirmation Decision only contains findings regarding instructions to Major General Ali and nobody else ... 55. The Chamber finds the allegations regarding instructions to members of the Kenya Police other than Major General Ali to be similarly relevant to Mr Muthaura's overall role. As the Pre-Trial Chamber did not reject such allegations, the defence's objection is essentially of the type discussed earlier in this Decision and concems the lack of findings on specific issues in the Confirmation Decision. The lack of such findings should not in principle result in the deletion of the corresponding statements of the facts from the DCC. Furthermore, having regard to (i) the non-confirmation of allegations of the involvement of the Kenya Police in the attacks by its deliberate failure to intervene, and (ii) the fact that the allegations regarding the instructions issued by Mr Muthaura can therefore only be examined in a limited context, the Chamber sees no risk of prejudice to the defence...If I were a journalist looking to report on interesting points in these decisions: I'd select something like the issue of police actions in Kibera and Kisumu. Jukwaaists may recall that those actions were "dropped" fairly early on. The OPT has always maintained that it would get back to Kibera and Kisumu, and now Bensouda has managed to slip Kibera back in, and we should expect a "full airing" at trial. Naturally the Defence has howled. Unsuccessfully. 29. The defence seeks the removal of the words "and in the Nairobi slums" from the phrase "Muthaura used his position to instruct the Kenya Police not to interfere with the work of the Mungiki and pro-PNU youth in the Rift Valley and in the Nairobi slums" ... The defence claims that neither of the two paragraphs of the Confirmation Decision relied on by the prosecution in support of the allegations mentions the Nairobi slums and also that the reference to the Nairobi slums goes beyond the geographical remit of the case. ... The reference to the Nairobi slums cannot thus be understood as extending the charges to allegations of crimes committed at that location. In addition, the Chamber notes that the Nairobi slums are only mentioned in the context of Mr Muthaura's alleged instructions to the Kenya Police.The judges indicate that they will try and keep narrow and limited the focus on these references, but in the world of practicalities I have my doubt. In any case, regardless of views on that, as things stand right now, Kibera is in. Contrary to what the Star article claims, i.e. Quote: "The trial judges also asked ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda to remove references to attacks in Nairobi slums from the charges against Uhuru and Muthaura."the judges did not ask for, and there will be no changes, in references to "Nairobi slums": Decision: "Having regard to these considerations, the Chamber is of the view that the allegation relating to the Nairobi slums can only be examined in a limited context. There is thus no risk of expansion of the charges or prejudice to the rights of the accused. The reference may be retained."There are also some other interesting points: "looting" is in, penile amputation categorized as "violence" rather than "sexual violence", etc. There are some interesting points in the Ruto-Sang decision, but I don't consider them to include the naming of the "three commanders", given the conditional nature of that part of the decision. Sang wins one (on some issue of dates) and loses one (in the attempt to restrict his mode of liability). A more interesting point, and it willcome back in the inevitable skirmish over "organization" and the fuzzy "network" is in this statement: 37. The Chamber notes that the Pre-Trial Chamber found in its Confirmation Decision, that "...the intention of Mr Ruto as a member of the group is in itself a sufficient indication of the intention of the group as a whole" ... Conferring the discriminatory purpose of Mr Ruto to the group as a whole, the Chamber considers that the formulation used by the prosecution does not exceed the scope of the charges confirmed by the Pre Trial Chamber. I think you are confusing several things, here, 1. Until that time that charges are raised, Njenga is and only remains a witness, not a suspect. Now, the relationship between Njenga and Mungiki is, I think, what is worrying the parties. It is publc knowledge the man was once a leader of Mungiki. But what does that mean? To substitute Njenga for Mungiki will mean that Njenga had the overall responsibility of Mungiki's activities and that is clearly tied to the Muthaura because he [Muthaura] was in-charge of internal security, and that the two were close and had a common denominator in the PEV, it is alleged. But, leaving Mungiki as it is, means there was an organisation, maybe amorphous, and their activities may not be pinned on known individual/s and therefore establish a link between Mungiki and Muthaura will be crucial. As such, witnesses will be saying that they acted as an organisation with orders from Njenga, known to have recieve such orders from Muthaura, that the police will not stop them from committing violence. I believe this is centered in the violence at Naivasha. 2. The same does not apply in the Kibera where the police actually committed the violence. You are trying very hard to rope in Kisumu, which also brings police violence, good luck, I see no mention of it. 3. Ali has also drawn into the mix, again as a witness, because of his relationship to Muthaura, especially where (1)police action violence was noticed, and (2) police inaction was recorded via the actions of Mungiki. He, just like Njenga, is either argued, or not, to have exclusive responsibility for the police actions or inactions. To my knowledge, there was no Mungiki's violence in the slums, only police violence. So that narrows it to police violence and police inaction to stop Mungiki violence. Muthaura is said to be the head of the organogram. 4. The only difference here is that unlike Mungiki, the police is a structured body with known command responsibility [ no can argue the police operates on adhoc basis] where Ali will be argued or not to have the final word, or was Muthaura? Where Command responsibility rests will be a contested issue, and if found to have one, who had the final word will be explosive. 5. The bottom line, the Prosecution can allege what they find fits, as it will be unethical for the Court to stop the Prosecution to allege the charges, but I think it will be a colossal task to substantiate those allegations with witness testimony.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 6, 2013 17:14:51 GMT 3
37. I think you are confusing several things, here What exactly? Did I suggest a mention of Kiusmu in this decision. I simply stated that (a) Kisumu and Kibera issues were considered early on but dropped, and (b) Kibera is no back in. I think you are trying too hard. In too many things. Slow down.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2013 18:46:57 GMT 3
BENSOUDA TO REVEAL NAMES ON WEDNESDAY
TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2013 - 00:00 -- BY OLIVER MATHENGE AND NZAU MUSAU
ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda will tomorrow release her list of witnesses against four Kenyan suspects. Meanwhile the trial judges have allowed Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda to meet her witnesses before they present their evidence.
Lawyers for Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta, former Cabinet Secretary Francis Muthaura, Eldoret North MP William Ruto and former broadcaster Joshua arap Sang wanted her not to meet the witnesses beforehand because they claimed it would be tantamount to "coaching".
The four Kenyans will find out tomorrow the full scope of evidence and witnesses that Bensouda will use in their trials which start on April 10 and 11. On Wednesday Bensouda is due to file a pre-trial brief, a list of witnesses and a confirmation that she has disclosed all incriminating evidence to the accused.
The four are charged with crimes against humanity arising out of the violence following the disputed presidential election on December 27, 2007.
Officially, meeting witnesses before trial is known as "witness preparation". However it is also known as "witness proofing", "witness familiarization" and “witness coaching."
Bensouda wants to meet her witnesses 24 hours before they take the stand but the defence lawyers argued that this was unfair. “After thorough consideration of the various advantages and drawbacks of the practice, the chamber concludes that it is neither practical nor reasonable to prohibit pre-testimony meetings between parties and the witnesses they would call to testify at trial,” the three trial judges said.
Judge Kuniko Ozaki (presiding), Christine Van den Wyngaert and Chile Eboe-Osuji were unanimous in their decision. Eboe-Osuji gave a “partly dissenting opinion” and wanted the witnesses to be allowed “practice” their testimonies as well but Ozaki and Wyngaert expressly ruled that out.
Eboe-Osuji argued that practicing testimony can be a “sensible and quite practical way” of imbuing the witness with confidence. He said it would improve the delivery of in-court testimonies.
“The same is the case with rehearsing or practicing for any other public presentation—including counsel's own opening and closing speeches,” he said.
In their majority decision, the judges rejected submissions that the Victims and Witness Unit would be sufficient to prepare witnesses.
The lawyers for Uhuru, Ruto, Muthaura and Sang had argued that "coaching" would take away spontaneity from witnesses, modify their evidence and give the prosecution undue advantage.
The judges said they were not convinced although they were mindful that witness preparation could become an improper rehearsal of in-court testimony.
“However, the Chamber is not convinced that this possibility necessitates a ban on pre-testimony meetings between parties and the witnesses they are calling, nor is it persuaded that an individual application should be required each time a party wishes to conduct a pre-testimony meeting with a witness,” they said.
The judges said they have adopted guidelines to check against improper coaching of witnesses. They also said they expected that counsels will act professionally and in good faith.
In addition, the judges said the “coaching” sessions will be video recorded. If there are allegations of improper coaching, the judges will review the videos.
Bensouda’s pre-trial brief tomorrow is expected to explain the prosecution’s case. On Friday, the Trial Chamber V judges allowed Bensouda to extend the number of pages in the pre-trial briefs from 20 to 75 pages.
The pre-trial brief will contain a summary of the relevant evidence for each count of each witness to be relied on at trial, all other evidence to be relied upon, and how it relates to the charge proffered.
On the witness list, Bensouda is expected to include a bullet-point summary of the main facts on which each witness is expected to testify. She will indicate the estimated length of time required for each witness and the total time for the presentation of the prosecution case.
“Prosecution disclosure to the defence of all incriminatory material in the form of witness statements and any other material to be relied on at trial, and provision of all material for inspection to the defence should be completed by 9 January 2013,” the Trial Chamber V said in July last year when setting the timetable leading to trial.
By Wednesday last week, Bensouda had disclosed 34 incriminating items to Uhuru and Muthaura. Bensouda has disclosed 35 items to Ruto and Sang.
She will disclose to the defence the identities of her witnesses under ICC protection on February 11. She will disclose to the defence the identities of those not under ICC protection on March 13.
Two weeks ago, Bensouda asked the court to allow her to delay disclosure of the identities of seven witnesses in the case against Ruto and Sang’ beyond the Wednesday deadline. The judges were yet to rule on the matter yesterday.
Bensouda also wants to be allowed to provide summaries or to withhold disclosure when redactions are insufficient to conceal the identities of some witnesses.
For two witnesses, the prosecutor wants to only disclose their identities 30 days before the trial against Ruto and Sang’ starts on April 10. She asked the trial judges to let her to disclose the identities of the other five witnesses 45 days before the trials start.www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-101856/bensouda-reveal-names-wednesday
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Post by raiswakesho on Jan 8, 2013 19:06:58 GMT 3
If Bensouda has any gov't insider as her witness against Hon. Uhuru & Amb. Muthaura then both are screwed. Let's wait for the list.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 8, 2013 19:33:09 GMT 3
BENSOUDA TO REVEAL NAMES ON WEDNESDAY
TUESDAY, JANUARY 8, 2013 - 00:00 -- BY OLIVER MATHENGE AND NZAU MUSAU
ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda will tomorrow release her list of witnesses against four Kenyan suspects. Meanwhile the trial judges have allowed Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda to meet her witnesses before they present their evidence.
Lawyers for Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta, former Cabinet Secretary Francis Muthaura, Eldoret North MP William Ruto and former broadcaster Joshua arap Sang wanted her not to meet the witnesses beforehand because they claimed it would be tantamount to "coaching".
The four Kenyans will find out tomorrow the full scope of evidence and witnesses that Bensouda will use in their trials which start on April 10 and 11. On Wednesday Bensouda is due to file a pre-trial brief, a list of witnesses and a confirmation that she has disclosed all incriminating evidence to the accused.
The four are charged with crimes against humanity arising out of the violence following the disputed presidential election on December 27, 2007.
Officially, meeting witnesses before trial is known as "witness preparation". However it is also known as "witness proofing", "witness familiarization" and “witness coaching."
Bensouda wants to meet her witnesses 24 hours before they take the stand but the defence lawyers argued that this was unfair. “After thorough consideration of the various advantages and drawbacks of the practice, the chamber concludes that it is neither practical nor reasonable to prohibit pre-testimony meetings between parties and the witnesses they would call to testify at trial,” the three trial judges said.
Judge Kuniko Ozaki (presiding), Christine Van den Wyngaert and Chile Eboe-Osuji were unanimous in their decision. Eboe-Osuji gave a “partly dissenting opinion” and wanted the witnesses to be allowed “practice” their testimonies as well but Ozaki and Wyngaert expressly ruled that out.
Eboe-Osuji argued that practicing testimony can be a “sensible and quite practical way” of imbuing the witness with confidence. He said it would improve the delivery of in-court testimonies.
“The same is the case with rehearsing or practicing for any other public presentation—including counsel's own opening and closing speeches,” he said.
In their majority decision, the judges rejected submissions that the Victims and Witness Unit would be sufficient to prepare witnesses.
The lawyers for Uhuru, Ruto, Muthaura and Sang had argued that "coaching" would take away spontaneity from witnesses, modify their evidence and give the prosecution undue advantage.
The judges said they were not convinced although they were mindful that witness preparation could become an improper rehearsal of in-court testimony.
“However, the Chamber is not convinced that this possibility necessitates a ban on pre-testimony meetings between parties and the witnesses they are calling, nor is it persuaded that an individual application should be required each time a party wishes to conduct a pre-testimony meeting with a witness,” they said.
The judges said they have adopted guidelines to check against improper coaching of witnesses. They also said they expected that counsels will act professionally and in good faith.
In addition, the judges said the “coaching” sessions will be video recorded. If there are allegations of improper coaching, the judges will review the videos.
Bensouda’s pre-trial brief tomorrow is expected to explain the prosecution’s case. On Friday, the Trial Chamber V judges allowed Bensouda to extend the number of pages in the pre-trial briefs from 20 to 75 pages.
The pre-trial brief will contain a summary of the relevant evidence for each count of each witness to be relied on at trial, all other evidence to be relied upon, and how it relates to the charge proffered.
On the witness list, Bensouda is expected to include a bullet-point summary of the main facts on which each witness is expected to testify. She will indicate the estimated length of time required for each witness and the total time for the presentation of the prosecution case.
“Prosecution disclosure to the defence of all incriminatory material in the form of witness statements and any other material to be relied on at trial, and provision of all material for inspection to the defence should be completed by 9 January 2013,” the Trial Chamber V said in July last year when setting the timetable leading to trial.
By Wednesday last week, Bensouda had disclosed 34 incriminating items to Uhuru and Muthaura. Bensouda has disclosed 35 items to Ruto and Sang.
She will disclose to the defence the identities of her witnesses under ICC protection on February 11. She will disclose to the defence the identities of those not under ICC protection on March 13.
Two weeks ago, Bensouda asked the court to allow her to delay disclosure of the identities of seven witnesses in the case against Ruto and Sang’ beyond the Wednesday deadline. The judges were yet to rule on the matter yesterday.
Bensouda also wants to be allowed to provide summaries or to withhold disclosure when redactions are insufficient to conceal the identities of some witnesses.
For two witnesses, the prosecutor wants to only disclose their identities 30 days before the trial against Ruto and Sang’ starts on April 10. She asked the trial judges to let her to disclose the identities of the other five witnesses 45 days before the trials start.www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-101856/bensouda-reveal-names-wednesday Inaccurate and misleading article. The Defence will get the names of certain witnesses by the end of the deadline of 9 Jan, and they already have got the names of some. But for some of the most significant witness, all they will get for now is something like "Witness No. X", etc. There are pending requests to delay releasing information on several critical witnesses. For these witnesses, nothing by way of identyfing information will be revealed until the Trial Chamber rules on those requests. Also, one would not be surprised if the court agrees to fairly susbtantial delays. If I recall correctly, that affects 12 witnesses in the Uhuru-Muthaura case and 16 witnesses in the Ruto-Sang case. RE: "By Wednesday last week, Bensouda had disclosed 34 incriminating items to Uhuru and Muthaura. Bensouda has disclosed 35 items to Ruto and Sang."By Wednesday last week (and mostly in the last two months) Bensouda had disclosed several-hundred items of incriminatory stuff to each pair.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 8, 2013 19:48:44 GMT 3
If Bensouda has any gov't insider as her witness against Hon. Uhuru & Amb. Muthaura then both are screwed. Let's wait for the list. I'm afraid we won't be seeing any list any time soon. Even where the identities of witnesses have already been revealed to the Defence, the relevant protocols make it near-impossible for the Defence to make them known (at this stage) to the public. Of course, there is the possibility of slipping something to a Matsanga or an Itumbi .....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2013 1:20:15 GMT 3
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 9, 2013 17:24:32 GMT 3
My reading is that the charges have actually been reduced on the crimes alleged. I have put a summary list together, starting with the lightest charges (Sang) to the heavy duty charges (Uhuru/Muthaura) Sang 1. Contributing to the commission of murder, deportation or forcible transfer of a population and persecution. Ruto2. 'Indirect co-perpetrator in the commission of murder, deportation or forcible transfer of a population and persecution', Uhuru/Muthaura3. Indirect co-perpetrators in the commission of five charges, namely; murder, deportation or forcible transfer, rape, persecution and other inhumane acts.
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Post by raiswakesho on Jan 9, 2013 19:27:38 GMT 3
Could Ali be one of the prosecutor's witnesses?
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 10, 2013 4:40:22 GMT 3
I have been busy trying to secure my position in the rat-race, but I hope to put in some comments in the next few days. A couple of quick ones: I am very, very impressed with Bensouda; I think she has outfoxed the villains (or at least made their lives more miserable than they expected at this stage, which gives me equal delight). I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that any charges have been reduced in any way.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 10, 2013 20:07:51 GMT 3
It's generally accurate but slightly misleading and lumps together different things under a claim (title) that covers both cases. What the article should have stated is that the "OTP seeks to tighten ..." . The issue is certain allegations that were rejected by the Pre-Trial Chamber and again by the Trial Chamber (on the basis of the former rejection). In the OTP submissions (Case 2): 3. In the Decision, the Trial Chamber ordered the Prosecution to remove the factual underlying allegation that “6 victims were killed by gunshots” contained in Count 1 (Murder as a crime against humanity) for Naivasha. The Trial Chamber found that the Pre-Trial Chamber had rejected that particular allegation at the confirmation of charges stage. Accordingly, in its Final Updated Document Containing the Charges, the Prosecution has removed this specific allegation.
4. However, the Prosecution respectfully informs the Chamber that since the Confirmation Hearing, the Prosecution has obtained additional evidence to substantiate this factual allegation. Accordingly, the Prosecution intends to apply to the Pre-Trial Chamber to include this allegation within the Murder Count 1. If the Pre-Trial Chamber confirms this, the Prosecution will seek leave of the Trial Chamber, pursuant to Article 64(6) (a) and (f), to re-insert the charge. We are alerting the Chamber of this possibility so that the Defence is properly put on notice of it. In the event that the Prosecution does not seek confirmation of this additional fact, moreover, because it is relevant to the intent and plan of the perpetrators in furtherance of the plan, the Prosecution may also seek to lead this evidence during trial. It is by no means certain that (a) The Pre-Trial Chamber will confirm the allegations, or even entertain such a request (depending on issues to do with the rights of the Defence and what they say about it), or (b) that the Trial Chamber will allow it to be inserted. Whence the "seeks", rather than The Standard's categorical statement. The issue most likely to arise is that of giving the Defence an opportunity to counter the OTP's new evidence, i.e. of having some sort of "mini Confirmation Hearing". The rules certainly appear to allow Bensouda to go back to the Pre-Trial Chamber, even in the cases of Ali and Kosgey, but whether that will actually happens (and whether it succeeds) remains to be seen. Bensouda is obviously very smart, and I obviously don't know her plans, but, as a betting man, my punt would be that she may be allowed to introduce the material, even if it is not confirmed. In Case 1, here is all the OTP had to say when submitting the Updated DCC: 1. In the “Decision on the content of the updated document containing the charges” (Order) issued on 28 December 20121, the Trial Chamber directed the Prosecution to modify the Updated DCC and the Modified Charges Section.
2. The Prosecution hereby submits, as public Annex A, its Updated DCC modified in accordance with the Chamber’s Order.
3. The Prosecution attaches as confidential, Trial Chamber only Annex B, a redlined version of the Updated DCC identifying the modifications that have been made.The Ruto-Sang side had very few issues with the draft DCC and so there is not much change from that. They, did, however, ask that the OTP specify the names of other major players (Cheramboss et al) in the "plan". Those names, in that "role" have been well-known---e.g. just get onto Google and type <villain's name> ICC Kenya---so there is nothing really new or "tightening" there. The real tightening, in both cases, is that Bensouda seems to have laid her hands on an astonishing number of new witnesses, and they have all come forth with good stuff. This is especially so in the Ruto-Sang case
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Post by OtishOtish on Jan 10, 2013 20:50:42 GMT 3
What the prosecutor actually submitted on the Jan 9 deadline: As expected, names of some witnesses have not been given to the Defence, and corresponding testimonies have accordingly been redacted. Excellent. Let the villains sweat.
Some bits from public parts of the OTP submissions (both are fairly short but are still not up on the ICC website):
Ruto-Sang Case
1. Pursuant to the Chamber’s 9 July 2012 Decision on the schedule leading up to trial, the Prosecution hereby submits its (i) list of witnesses to be relied upon at trial; (ii) summaries of the main facts on which each witness is expected to testify; (iii) list of evidence to be relied upon at trial; and (iv) pre‐trial brief.
2. Confidential ex parte Annex A contains the Prosecution’s witness list. The Prosecution has indicated the expected duration of each witness’s questioning by the Prosecution. Annex A is designated confidential ex parte because it contains the names of witnesses for whom the Chamber has granted delayed disclosure, or for whom an application is pending.
3. In terms of the expected duration of the Prosecution’s case, the Prosecution estimates that it will require approximately 826 hours of court time. This estimate includes the time projected for (i) the Prosecution’s questioning of its 43 fact witnesses (totaling approximately 383 hours); (ii) the Prosecution’s questioning of the three proposed experts (currently estimated at approximately no more than 30 hours in total); and (iii) the time projected for Defence questioning of the Prosecution’s fact and expert witnesses (totaling approximately 413 hours). To estimate the time needed for questioning by the Defence, the Prosecution has proceeded on the basis that the Defence will use the same amount of time projected for Prosecution questioning. The 826 hour estimate does not include time that the Chamber may grant to the Office of Public Counsel for Victims or the common legal representative to question Prosecution witnesses, or time that the Chamber may use to question witnesses.
4. A confidential redacted version of the Prosecution’s witness list is filed to ensure the effectiveness of in‐court protective measures for witnesses, if sought by the Prosecution and granted by the Chamber.
5. Confidential ex parte Annex B contains summaries of the main facts on which each witness is expected to testify.5 It is designated confidential ex parte because it contains information that may lead to the identification of witnesses for whom the Chamber has granted delayed disclosure, or for whom an application is pending.
6. A confidential redacted version of the witness summaries will be filed contemporaneously to ensure the effectiveness of in‐court protective measures, if sought by the Prosecution and granted by the Chamber.
7. Confidential ex parte Annex C contains the Prosecution’s list of evidence to be relied upon at trial. It is designated confidential ex parte because it contains information that may lead to the identification of witnesses for whom the Chamber has granted delayed disclosure or for whom an application is pending. The list contains 1529 items, and is divided into two parts. The first part contains witness statements and related material (such as annexes to witness statements) and contains 1115 items. The second part contains all other documentary evidence and audio/video material and comprises 414 items. For each item, the Prosecution has listed the ERN and title, and, for materials related to witnesses, the witness to which the material relates.
8. A confidential redacted version of the list of evidence will be filed contemporaneously to ensure the effectiveness of in‐court protective measures, if sought by the Prosecution and granted by the Chamber.
9. The Prosecution hereby gives notice to the Chamber that in future, it may seek leave to amend the list of witnesses and/or the list of evidence pursuant to the requirements of Regulation 35(2) of the Regulations of the Court if it obtains certain materials that it seeks to tender into evidence or succeeds in securing cooperation of certain witnesses that it has identified that it wishes to interview. These materials and/or persons are the subject of certain governmental and/or institutional restrictions for which the Prosecution has requested cooperation from a number of states pursuant to their co‐operation obligations under Part 9 of the Statute, but which have not yet been received.
10. Pursuant to Regulation 35(2), the Chamber may extend a time limit if good cause is shown, and after the time limit has expired, the extension may be granted if the participant seeking the extension can demonstrate that he or she was unable to file the application within the time limit for reasons outside of his or her control.
11. The aforementioned governmental and/or institutional restrictions are currently preventing the Prosecution from taking the statements from the identified individuals and gauging their willingness and/or ability to testify for the Prosecution, or from gaining free access to the materials it may wish to tender into evidence, and as such constitute “good cause” within the meaning of Regulation 35(2). The Prosecution has already approached several State Parties, including the Government of Kenya, in order to gain access to such individuals and materials. Discussions regarding the terms and conditions of such access are still ongoing, and for that reason the Prosecution is at this stage unable to file Regulation 35 applications with respect to specific materials and/or individuals. However, the Prosecution is in a position to pinpoint the following groups of materials or individuals that it may wish to add to its lists of evidence and witnesses at a later stage:
Certain categories of individuals needing specific governmental authorization to gain access to them.
Certain individuals who are journalists who produced video material that the Prosecution wishes to tender into evidence during its case, for whom approval is required from their institutions;
Certain materials, including medical and financial records, requested from the Kenyan government.
12. The Prosecution may also address the Chamber, when and if necessary, pursuant to Articles 93(1)(l) and 64(6)(b) of the Rome Statute, to obtain a request to one or more States Parties to provide assistance with respect to facilitating access to the above mentioned persons and materials or requiring witnesses’ attendance before the Court.
13. Confidential ex parte Annex D contains the Prosecution’s pre‐trial brief. It is designated confidential ex parte because it contains information that may lead to the identification of witnesses for whom the Chamber has granted delayed disclosure, or for whom an application is pending. Many of the citations in the brief are to pages/paragraphs of the witnesses’ pre‐trial interviews. These pinpoint citations are provided for ease of reference, and are merely indicative of the testimony the Prosecution anticipates from its witnesses at trial. The pre‐trial brief is intended as a summary of the Prosecution’s trial evidence; it is not necessarily exhaustive, and the evidence at trial may differ from the summary presented. For the same reason, the Prosecution has not necessarily cited to all of the evidence contained in its list of evidence, but has endeavoured to include some of the main evidence on point for each allegation. A confidential redacted version of the pre‐trial brief will be filed contemporaneously. The Prosecution has endeavoured to draft the pre‐trial brief in order to minimise the need for redactions and to ensure that the Defence is provided with maximum notice regarding the nature of the Prosecution’s case.
Uhuru-Muthaura Case
Largely similar, except for.
3. In terms of the expected duration of the Prosecution’s case,4 the Prosecution estimates that it will require approximately 572 hours of court time. This estimate includes the time projected for (i) the Prosecution’s questioning of its 31 fact witnesses (totaling approximately 262 hours); (ii) the Prosecution’s questioning of the three proposed experts (currently estimated at approximately no more than 24 hours in total); and (ii) the time projected for Defence questioning of the Prosecution’s fact and expert witnesses (totaling approximately 286 hours). To estimate the time needed for questioning by the Defence, the Prosecution has proceeded on the basis that the Defence will use the same amount of time projected for Prosecution questioning. The 572 hour estimate does not include time that the Chamber may grant to the Office of Public Counsel for Victims or the common legal representative to question Prosecution witnesses, or time that the Chamber may use to question witnesses.
Some quick comments:
The Updated Documents Containing Charges have some interesting little bits, but they are still not up on the ICC website, and I'm not inclined to more cut-and-paste, as it requires line-by-line reformatting ... But on the basis of the bits above, from the other documents:
* Some time ago Bensouda (especially during her trip to Kenya) complained loudly about the failure of GoK to cooperate, something that did not surprise us, knowing GoK as we do. A few people claimed that it was because she actually had no evidence, di di da da da. Now she gets the payoff: it is extremely likely that the court will allow her to introduce new witness during time into the trial. GoK's stone-walling has actually increased the uncertainty for the villains. I like it.
* Bensouda's moves are based on the very reasonable assumption that a change in the (type of) government would yield new fruit. The villains and their associates must know that, and what they will do about it should be a concern to all.
* I believe that some of Bensouda's witnesses especially those who still remain in Kenya, or some people she believes would be witnesses, are people high in the government or are close to such people. This brings us back to the preceding point.
* The public seems to have this notion that at some point they will know who all the witnesses are, either before or during the trial. That is not necessarily the case. Consider the Lubanga case: the trial is over and the man has been sentenced, but we (public) still don't know who some of the witnesses were---when they testified face and voice distortion were extensively used.
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Post by abdulmote on Jan 10, 2013 21:18:46 GMT 3
OtishO,
We are much obliged with your excellent effort re ICC updates. A million thanks for that. And to Sadik too. Shukran for your persistent generousity gents!
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Post by kamalet on Jan 11, 2013 10:04:02 GMT 3
In the OTP submissions (Case 2): 3. In the Decision, the Trial Chamber ordered the Prosecution to remove the factual underlying allegation that “6 victims were killed by gunshots” contained in Count 1 (Murder as a crime against humanity) for Naivasha. The Trial Chamber found that the Pre-Trial Chamber had rejected that particular allegation at the confirmation of charges stage. Accordingly, in its Final Updated Document Containing the Charges, the Prosecution has removed this specific allegation.
4. However, the Prosecution respectfully informs the Chamber that since the Confirmation Hearing, the Prosecution has obtained additional evidence to substantiate this factual allegation. Accordingly, the Prosecution intends to apply to the Pre-Trial Chamber to include this allegation within the Murder Count 1. If the Pre-Trial Chamber confirms this, the Prosecution will seek leave of the Trial Chamber, pursuant to Article 64(6) (a) and (f), to re-insert the charge. We are alerting the Chamber of this possibility so that the Defence is properly put on notice of it. In the event that the Prosecution does not seek confirmation of this additional fact, moreover, because it is relevant to the intent and plan of the perpetrators in furtherance of the plan, the Prosecution may also seek to lead this evidence during trial. It is by no means certain that (a) The Pre-Trial Chamber will confirm the allegations, or even entertain such a request (depending on issues to do with the rights of the Defence and what they say about it), or (b) that the Trial Chamber will allow it to be inserted. Whence the "seeks", rather than The Standard's categorical statement. The issue most likely to arise is that of giving the Defence an opportunity to counter the OTP's new evidence, i.e. of having some sort of "mini Confirmation Hearing". The rules certainly appear to allow Bensouda to go back to the Pre-Trial Chamber, even in the cases of Ali and Kosgey, but whether that will actually happens (and whether it succeeds) remains to be seen. Bensouda is obviously very smart, and I obviously don't know her plans, but, as a betting man, my punt would be that she may be allowed to introduce the material, even if it is not confirmed. Otishotish Whilst you want to give Bensouda a lot of credit as to being smart etc....have you considered the overall import of this new charge she wants to take back to the PTC? Have you considered that with all the 'problems' she argues she is encountering in getting her evidence it does point to sufficient trouble that she now gets "new evidence" on the murder of 6 people in Naivasha which she previuosly could not prove and now wants it brought into her case? I think Bensouda has considerable evidence on the PEV (simply because it happened) but is struggling to make it reach the threshhold required to secure a conviction hence her wailing on how bad the Kibaki government is. She is certainly not helped by the proclamations of her predecessor that he had sufficient evidence to get people jailed 'ndivyo iwe funzo kwa wengine' as they say in Vioja Mahakamani. Incidentally did you hear the comments of Githu on this evidence issue??
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Post by kamalet on Jan 11, 2013 10:16:20 GMT 3
* Some time ago Bensouda (especially during her trip to Kenya) complained loudly about the failure of GoK to cooperate, something that did not surprise us, knowing GoK as we do. A few people claimed that it was because she actually had no evidence, di di da da da. Now she gets the payoff: it is extremely likely that the court will allow her to introduce new witness during time into the trial. GoK's stone-walling has actually increased the uncertainty for the villains. I like it. I highly doubt she will be getting that much help once the trial starts to start peddling new evidence unless that witnesses are to support existing evidence - I doubt she can introduce new evidence without leave of court. * Bensouda's moves are based on the very reasonable assumption that a change in the (type of) government would yield new fruit. The villains and their associates must know that, and what they will do about it should be a concern to all. * I believe that some of Bensouda's witnesses especially those who still remain in Kenya, or some people she believes would be witnesses, are people high in the government or are close to such people. This brings us back to the preceding point. did you actually suggest that she is waiting for a CORD government to get her the evidence? So what happens when CORD does not form the next government, are you able to estimate the damage to her case? How does she force Kapondi for instance of some PC to give evidence against their wishes? Is this not what Githu told her that he is unable to force the likes of Kapondi to co-operate? * The public seems to have this notion that at some point they will know who all the witnesses are, either before or during the trial. That is not necessarily the case. Consider the Lubanga case: the trial is over and the man has been sentenced, but we (public) still don't know who some of the witnesses were---when they testified face and voice distortion were extensively used. One thing that is clear is that the accused will KNOW the witnesses even if they are hidden from the public face. I believe it is the right of the accused to know their accusers and ask them questions. I do not think knowing that Otishotish is a prosecution witness helps out much as long as his evidence is truthful and secures a conviction. [/quote]
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