The Ramifications of the Waki Report

[Onyango Oloo]

www.kisii.com/portal/index.php?/Forum/?topic=3397.0

[kingtut]

Thats right, I'm not from the Kale community and im also a staunch ODM supporter till the end.

[adongo23456]

I think this is a big mistake by ODM.

www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143998031&cid=4&

Not canceling the meeting. On that I think they did the right thing. I mean they don't seem to know what they want to talk about. Why have a meeting when you have no clue what you want to do.

The trouble I see here for ODM as a party wants to be the party for impunity, for continued abuse of human rights with no consequences and they are telling us if we don't give them the right to endorse human rights abuses then some of them will break ODM. Really? What party do they want to form? The party of the demigods who are above the law?

The big blunder here for this faction of the ODM is that they want to unilaterally align ODM to violence and human rights abuses. I have said before that the evidence provided so far against people like Ruto are unsustainable in any court of law. It is the Rutos who should be demanding due process to clear their names. This tribal chest thumping stuff is nonsense.

It seems many of these people have not even absorbed the gist of the Waki recommendations. I would be a rich man if I bet on how few of them have oven bothered to read the report.

First of all the have this bizarre argument that accepting the Waki recommendations it means Kenya will soon be shipping Ruto and company to the Hague as "criminals", convicted without a hearing. This is just political foolishness. Ruto and others have every right to challenge every piece of "evidence" against them if they feel they are "innuendos", romours and/or fiction. They have a right to do it on the political platform as well. They have been publicly accused.

So I disagree with those who say let everybody who has been accused wait and defend themselves in a court of law. Those who are politicians have a right to defend themselves in the political arena. What they don't have the right to do is to deny Kenyans the right to examine and prosecute political violence and abuse of power.

The really big mistake here for the ODM is that they are now taking ownership of political violence and human rights abuse which is the principal gist of the Waki Report. They don't have to really. And then to camouflage this in the name of protecting this or that tribe is just bad politics. No tribe had the monopoly of violence after the polls. Why put this burden on one tribe? The Waki report is very generalized. Why do Kalenjin leaders feel the obligation put this baggage their communities?

This is the problem you have with parties where nobody thinks anything through. Everybody is a spokesperson and they all speak for their own self interest. Salim Lone and others did a lot of hard good work to put all this madness into some form of coherence. These things don't happen by accident.

Raila has every right to make statements in his capacity as the Prime Minister. He cannot outsource that responsibility. The can only be one President and one Prime Minister at a time. In the same wavelength ODM leaders and members have every right to challenge their leader who happens to be a PM to explain and justify his position. This can be done without losing focus on the big picture.

The primary instigator of political violence in Kenya and abuse of human rights following the robbed elections was none other than Mwai Kibaki and his government. Why do a section of political leaders with any community take the burden from Kibaki and put it on their shoulders? All these threats of political turmoil in ODM is normal in any political cycle, but for gods sakes keep the tribes and our rights as Kenyans out of it.

The Waki Report is NOT about Kalenjins, it is about Kenyans. We all have a responsibility to examine it and to challenge it, but nobody should try to hang this on the necks of the Kalenjin community.

The Waki Report only recommends options for Kenyans to deal with the aftermath of elections. That is all they were asked to do. They have not convicted anyone. People should stop convicting themselves and address the broader issues of PEV and reforming our electoral and constitutional process so we don't have to deal with this nightmare every other day. If they approach it that way they may find something to talk in their next resort about the matter instead of holding a meeting for intimidations, threats and blackmail. Get real folks. The nation needs some leadership on this matter.

adongo

[einstein]

Oct 28, 2008 2:19:03 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

I think this is a big mistake by ODM.

www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143998031&cid=4&

Not canceling the meeting. On that I think they did the right thing. I mean they don't seem to know what they want to talk about. Why have a meeting when you have no clue what you want to do.

The trouble I see here for ODM as a party wants to be the party for impunity, for continued abuse of human rights with no consequences and they are telling us if we don't give them the right to endorse human rights abuses then some of them will break ODM. Really? What party do they want to form? The party of the demigods who are above the law?

The big blunder here for this faction of the ODM is that they want to unilaterally align ODM to violence and human rights abuses. I have said before that the evidence provided so far against people like Ruto are unsustainable in any court of law. It is the Rutos who should be demanding due process to clear their names. This tribal chest thumping stuff is nonsense.

It seems many of these people have not even absorbed the gist of the Waki recommendations. I would be a rich man if I bet on how few of them have oven bothered to read the report.

First of all the have this bizarre argument that accepting the Waki recommendations it means Kenya will soon be shipping Ruto and company to the Hague as "criminals", convicted without a hearing. This is just political foolishness. Ruto and others have every right to challenge every piece of "evidence" against them if they feel they are "innuendos", romours and/or fiction. They have a right to do it on the political platform as well. They have been publicly accused.

So I disagree with those who say let everybody who has been accused wait and defend themselves in a court of law. Those who are politicians have a right to defend themselves in the political arena. What they don't have the right to do is to deny Kenyans the right to examine and prosecute political violence and abuse of power.

The really big mistake here for the ODM is that they are now taking ownership of political violence and human rights abuse which is the principal gist of the Waki Report. They don't have to really. And then to camouflage this in the name of protecting this or that tribe is just bad politics. No tribe had the monopoly of violence after the polls. Why put this burden on one tribe? The Waki report is very generalized. Why do Kalenjin leaders feel the obligation put this baggage their communities?

This is the problem you have with parties where nobody thinks anything through. Everybody is a spokesperson and they all speak for their own self interest. Salim Lone and others did a lot of hard good work to put all this madness into some form of coherence. These things don't happen by accident.

Raila has every right to make statements in his capacity as the Prime Minister. He cannot outsource that responsibility. The can only be one President and one Prime Minister at a time. In the same wavelength ODM leaders and members have every right to challenge their leader who happens to be a PM to explain and justify his position. This can be done without losing focus on the big picture.

The primary instigator of political violence in Kenya and abuse of human rights following the robbed elections was none other than Mwai Kibaki and his government. Why do a section of political leaders with any community take the burden from Kibaki and put it on their shoulders? All these threats of political turmoil in ODM is normal in any political cycle, but for gods sakes keep the tribes and our rights as Kenyans out of it.

The Waki Report is NOT about Kalenjins, it is about Kenyans. We all have a responsibility to examine it and to challenge it, but nobody should try to hang this on the necks of the Kalenjin community.

The Waki Report only recommends options for Kenyans to deal with the aftermath of elections. That is all they were asked to do. They have not convicted anyone. People should stop convicting themselves and address the broader issues of PEV and reforming our electoral and constitutional process so we don't have to deal with this nightmare every other day. If they approach it that way they may find something to talk in their next resort about the matter instead of holding a meeting for intimidations, threats and blackmail. Get real folks. The nation needs some leadership on this matter.

adongo

Adongo,

My first spontaneous reaction to the threats by RV MPs suggesting an ODM split unless Raila toes their line is that this is a classical case of arm twisting by the MPs. They CANNOT arm twist the PM to bear responsibility for murder which he Raila was not even made aware of.

I think, Raila should show leadership by going the whole hog and even allowing the party to split. He should wash his hands off this crime against humanity even if means putting his career on the line! Just listen to the blackmailers; they are now saying without RV the PM and Mudavadi his deputy PM would not be enjoying those positions! Which leader wants to be blackmailed like that!

Party membership should not be to protect personal or communal interest! It is about the interest of the whole country!

The alternative is to set up the TJRC immediately to bring the victims of violence and the perpetrators face to face in a bid to reconcile the two groups.

SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. WE CANNOT BURY THIS THING UNDER THE CARPET!!!

[adongo23456]

einstein

One of the most annoying things about the political threats regarding the Waki report from a section of ODM is that they don't seem to even want to know how the ICC work. They are going around mobilizing tribal support and anger claiming their leaders kina Ruto, Kosgey, etc will be sent to the Hague and locked up. That is rubbish. These leaders should figure out how ICC works and tell their communities that nobody can be taken to the Hague unless they are international fugitives who have committed crimes against humanity and who are on the run against prosecution. None of those conditions apply here.

If Ruto and co committed any crimes the government should arrest them and charge them in a court of law. If the government has no evidence to arrest them and charge them in a court of law the ICC has no business with them. The ICC is more likely to be interested in Kibaki himself and people like Police Commissioner Ali, Michuki etc whom we all know cannot prosecute themselves. That has been my argument all along. But I can understand that some leaders want to flare up tribal emotions to get political leverage over the matter.

Secondly nobody has bothered to explain to Kenyans what implementing the Waki commission means. Instead we have the usual short sighted shouting matches. Does implementing the recommendations mean arresting everyone named immediately? Does it mean shipping them to the Hague? None of the above is the right answer but you wouldn't know that judging from the noise.

The crux of the Waki report is that Kenya should stop the legacy of immunity and impunity in matters of political violence and crimes against humanity. I found it hard to imagine that anybody least of all a serious political leader should have any problems with that. Anybody who wants a better future for our country need to accept this basic premise of the Waki report. This impunity will destroy us if we don't deal with it.

The key recommendation of the report is that a Tribunal be set up. I see no problem with that. In fact in my view not all those named in the report to appear before the commission. I will come to that shortly, but more importantly those to be brought before the tribunal should not be limited only to those named in the report. We should look at the Akiwimu report and other sources of evidence of political violence and crimes against humanity.

Once the Tribunal is set up there will be a prosecutor in charge and clear terms set up. It is up to the prosecutor to determine if there is sufficient evidence in each case to bring people before the tribunal. All we need is a prosecutor(s) who has integrity and is impartial.

In my opinion a Tribunal is a much better route than simply demanding that those implicated be arrested and charged in regular courts. Our courts are infested with tribalism, corruption and are essentially controlled by the executive. Handing this matter to them as some are demanding is another way of saying they don't give a damn about human rights abuses in Kenya.

Those who simply want blanket amnesty should say so instead of hiding behind the take us to court mantra. As I have said before. How do we forgive people who say they have done nothing wrong. What do they want to be forgiven for. Is that too much to ask? If people have been falsely accused their names should be cleared and they don't need any amnesty at all.

This brings me back to one of the biggest problems of the Waki report. I agree with William Ruto that the investigation was shoddy. Even more shoddy and shocking is the language and characterization, and even in the KNCHR dossier. Both reports they talk about "attackers" and then classify anyone who helped these so called attackers as being an organizer. The "attackers" in the Waki report include demonstrators protesting the stolen election. So if you offered your church or house to people being shot and chased by the police, you are shielding attackers. This is an outrage and it makes sense to me because from the Waki group. As judge and as a person Waki has demonstrated no interest or particular knowledge of human rights battles in Kenya. To him and his crew everybody is just an "attacker".

To classify victims of state violence who were running for cover, together with criminal gangs causing mayhem and call everybody "attackers" is not just shoddy it verges on sheer incompetence on the part of Waki and group.

Ruto is also right that Waki grouped together acts of simple hooliganism and thuggery as well as the action of protesters as part of the "attackers". I think it was a very deliberate decision to use the term "attackers" to muddy the waters and insulate the Commission from doing a more thorough work and tell Kenyans who did what.

Those are just some of the issues I think Kenyans have a right to question about the Waki report.

Then we have the political dimensions. Tongues are wagging furiously that the Rift Valley M.P's are mad with Raila because Raila supported the Waki report and their next move will be to break away from ODM. Of all the reasons the Rift Valley M.Ps would offer for breaking away from ODM this is by far the worst from a political perspective. Break from ODM any time you want but please don't burden your constituency as being the protectors of political violence in Kenya. The Kalenjin communities played a key role in the battle to dislodge the Kibaki gangs from sticking to power, they deserve better.

The one thing this Rift Valleys M.P's have to consider is who are they going to work with after their telegraphed break up. PNU? The PNU base has been convinced that they were the victims of violence orchestrated by the ODM and now you want to go and tell them "well we have brought in those who killed you and who do not want to face justice, give them around of applause" That is going to go very well, don't you think?

My advice to this M.P's is to stop taking the flack for the real perpetrators of political violence in Kenya. People like Uhuru and Michuki are laughing in glee as they see a section of the ODM take full responsibility for the PEV in Kenya. They don't have to say anything.

I really have no problem with a section of the ODM walking out of the party. It is inevitable but doing it because somebody is telling Kenyans there is something wrong with addressing political violence and impunity is just disastrous for them.

I would be happy if William Ruto was in Kisumu and Kakamega, Mombasa and elsewhere telling Kenyans he is against political violence. He would get a ready audience in Kisumu for example. Those folks know a thing or two about being the victims of political violence in the hands of state agents. Take the battle for an end to impunity to the whole country and stop maligning a single tribe for political protection.

And then we have the outright black mailers who are saying Raila would not be a PM without the resistance of the Kelenjin youths. My be that is true but Raila is not the Prime Minister of the Kalenjins. He is the Prime Minister of Kenya. At least accord him the right to speak for the country which he leads as a PM.

I think many would agree with me in saying it is more preferable to have a Raila who is not a president or PM but believes in and supports human rights than to have President Raila Amolo Odinga who doesn't give a sh.it about human rights abuses in Kenya. I would make that trade in a second.

I think the ODM needs a team of legal experts as well as human rights lawyers to go through the Waki report and to explain to the M.P's what the report actually says. Most of them have no clue. The same team can also help them by giving them some options on what they can do.

But one thing I know is that the ODM falling all over itself in the name of the Waki report is just a sad spectacle. But then again we know these people called the ODM. I for one I am not surprised about any of this. There is more of the same to come I am sure. We will not get tired of telling them what we think.

adongo

[politicalmaniac]

AO abd the rest,

How to appoint a tribunal whose members are acceptable to all is also tricky.
For one, any Lawyer connected with this administration is disqualified in my view, and that includes Judges, esp those that were appointed after the radical excision surgery by the pugnacious and arrogant kiraitu. I have no faith in them at all.

Also the tone of the report lends credence to it being attacked by the RV MPs as it kind of gives off this vibe that there are two camps and one was the victim, with the other being assigned the role of murderers/genocide perpertrators. All this in the abscence of a painstaking forensic investigation run by a competent and impartial team appointed by all and sundry. The fact that heresy was taken as evidence of the truth without being interrogated makes it difficult for the accused to accept the report. No wonder Ruto is dissmissing it in such a offhand manner. Were all those affected by violence allowed to appear before the Waki team?

With everyone running away from this report I frankly have no patience to hope for a conclusive an jsut outcome.

Another committee same sh.itty result.

[theanarchomugikuyu]

Oct 28, 2008 22:56:12 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

AO abd the rest,

How to appoint a tribunal whose members are acceptable to all is also tricky.
For one, any Lawyer connected with this administration is disqualified in my view, and that includes Judges, esp those that were appointed after the radical excision surgery by the pugnacious and arrogant kiraitu. I have no faith in them at all.

Also the tone of the report lends credence to it being attacked by the RV MPs as it kind of gives off this vibe that there are two camps and one was the victim, with the other being assigned the role of murderers/genocide perpertrators. All this in the abscence of a painstaking forensic investigation run by a competent and impartial team appointed by all and sundry. The fact that heresy was taken as evidence of the truth without being interrogated makes it difficult for the accused to accept the report. No wonder Ruto is dissmissing it in such a offhand manner. Were all those affected by violence allowed to appear before the Waki team?

With everyone running away from this report I frankly have no patience to hope for a conclusive an jsut outcome.

Another committee same sh.itty result.

Are you really this stupid?

(1) There've been independent investigators - that we know of - since some time in late January.

(2) Waki imported an external expert to complete the investigations. This comes quite early in the report, so I'm beginning to think you haven't read the fncking thing.

(3) There's no shortage of eyewitness testimony -- the website has a complete transcript.

(4) I think you mean hearsay. That's false because there's direct eyewitness evidence of incitement, as well as recordings (video and audio) too. In any case, even very senior members of ODM were not at all shy about their desire and intention to carry out mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

[adongo23456]

theanarchomugikuyu

The elephant in the little tent for you folks is simple. If all these evidence you talk about are available then why hasn't the government arrested all the suspects/criminals in question? What is the hold up?

My views on the Waki report have already been stated in this very thread.

adongo

[kingtut]

The government doesn't have to do anything on the Waki report, because the Waki report is already serving its purpose, and that is to divide ODM. Raila and Luo Mp's fell for the trap!!

Kibaki is busy initiating development projects around the country, he's running govt while ODM is in the midst of a political crisis.

Only an Obama victory can provide Raila a new political lifeline. But if ODM were to split, and Obama looses the elections then Raila's career would be over.

[adongo23456]

Oct 29, 2008 0:13:37 GMT 3 @kingtut said:

The government doesn't have to do anything on the Waki report, because the Waki report is already serving its purpose, and that is to divide ODM. Raila and Luo Mp's fell for the trap!!

Kibaki is busy initiating development projects around the country, he's running govt while ODM is in the midst of a political crisis.

Only an Obama victory can provide Raila a new political lifeline. But if ODM were to split, and Obama looses the elections then Raila's career would be over.

What has this got to do with anything? It is incoherent to me.

[politicalmaniac]

Oct 28, 2008 23:10:32 GMT 3 @theanarchomugikuyu said:

Oct 28, 2008 22:56:12 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

AO abd the rest,

How to appoint a tribunal whose members are acceptable to all is also tricky.
For one, any Lawyer connected with this administration is disqualified in my view, and that includes Judges, esp those that were appointed after the radical excision surgery by the pugnacious and arrogant kiraitu. I have no faith in them at all.

Also the tone of the report lends credence to it being attacked by the RV MPs as it kind of gives off this vibe that there are two camps and one was the victim, with the other being assigned the role of murderers/genocide perpertrators. All this in the abscence of a painstaking forensic investigation run by a competent and impartial team appointed by all and sundry. The fact that heresy was taken as evidence of the truth without being interrogated makes it difficult for the accused to accept the report. No wonder Ruto is dissmissing it in such a offhand manner. Were all those affected by violence allowed to appear before the Waki team?

With everyone running away from this report I frankly have no patience to hope for a conclusive an jsut outcome.

Another committee same sh.itty result.

Are you really this stupid?

(1) There've been independent investigators - that we know of - since some time in late January.

(2) Waki imported an external expert to complete the investigations. This comes quite early in the report, so I'm beginning to think you haven't read the fncking thing.

(3) There's no shortage of eyewitness testimony -- the website has a complete transcript.

(4) I think you mean hearsay. That's false because there's direct eyewitness evidence of incitement, as well as recordings (video and audio) too. In any case, even very senior members of ODM were not at all shy about their desire and intention to carry out mass murder and ethnic cleansing.

First of all who is Waki and who appointed him?

The perpertrators of the violence investigating themselves? And then passing judgement? Where is the judgment on the fence sitting Generali kegs? He should be the one facing the music.

What did the report say about the SH meetings with Mungiki and did the sloth generali give evidence to Waki? Who was there? Where is the video transcript of that deposition?

Thats what I want to know.
The rest is just background noise

Mark my words this report aint going nowhere.
Its just a charade.

There was no good faith or intent in really finding out what happened, its now a tool used by the MKM to fight its turf wars with the RV MPs, and others.

We shall never know the truth.

[Onyango Oloo]

Oct 28, 2008 23:10:32 GMT 3 @theanarchomugikuyu said:

Are you really this stupid?

Dear Jukwaa member:

ABUSIVE language is not acceptable on this forum.

Onyango Oloo
Jukwaa Administrator

[phil]

Oct 29, 2008 3:57:04 GMT 3 Onyango Oloo said:

Oct 28, 2008 23:10:32 GMT 3 @theanarchomugikuyu said:

Are you really this stupid?

Dear Jukwaa member:

ABUSIVE language is not acceptable on this forum.

Onyango Oloo
Jukwaa Administrator

Bw Oloo,

This is not the first time. A few of us have been abused in the not so distant past but it did not catch your attention. I hope your warning will be heeded.

[kingtut]

Oloo,

My deepest condolence to your brother in Law. He did not die in vain.

[einstein]

Oct 28, 2008 21:21:10 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

einstein

One of the most annoying things about the political threats regarding the Waki report from a section of ODM is that they don't seem to even want to know how the ICC work. They are going around mobilizing tribal support and anger claiming their leaders kina Ruto, Kosgey, etc will be sent to the Hague and locked up. That is rubbish. These leaders should figure out how ICC works and tell their communities that nobody can be taken to the Hague unless they are international fugitives who have committed crimes against humanity and who are on the run against prosecution. None of those conditions apply here.

If Ruto and co committed any crimes the government should arrest them and charge them in a court of law. If the government has no evidence to arrest them and charge them in a court of law the ICC has no business with them. The ICC is more likely to be interested in Kibaki himself and people like Police Commissioner Ali, Michuki etc whom we all know cannot prosecute themselves. That has been my argument all along. But I can understand that some leaders want to flare up tribal emotions to get political leverage over the matter.

Secondly nobody has bothered to explain to Kenyans what implementing the Waki commission means. Instead we have the usual short sighted shouting matches. Does implementing the recommendations mean arresting everyone named immediately? Does it mean shipping them to the Hague? None of the above is the right answer but you wouldn't know that judging from the noise.

The crux of the Waki report is that Kenya should stop the legacy of immunity and impunity in matters of political violence and crimes against humanity. I found it hard to imagine that anybody least of all a serious political leader should have any problems with that. Anybody who wants a better future for our country need to accept this basic premise of the Waki report. This impunity will destroy us if we don't deal with it.

The key recommendation of the report is that a Tribunal be set up. I see no problem with that. In fact in my view not all those named in the report to appear before the commission. I will come to that shortly, but more importantly those to be brought before the tribunal should not be limited only to those named in the report. We should look at the Akiwimu report and other sources of evidence of political violence and crimes against humanity.

Once the Tribunal is set up there will be a prosecutor in charge and clear terms set up. It is up to the prosecutor to determine if there is sufficient evidence in each case to bring people before the tribunal. All we need is a prosecutor(s) who has integrity and is impartial.

In my opinion a Tribunal is a much better route than simply demanding that those implicated be arrested and charged in regular courts. Our courts are infested with tribalism, corruption and are essentially controlled by the executive. Handing this matter to them as some are demanding is another way of saying they don't give a damn about human rights abuses in Kenya.

Those who simply want blanket amnesty should say so instead of hiding behind the take us to court mantra. As I have said before. How do we forgive people who say they have done nothing wrong. What do they want to be forgiven for. Is that too much to ask? If people have been falsely accused their names should be cleared and they don't need any amnesty at all.

This brings me back to one of the biggest problems of the Waki report. I agree with William Ruto that the investigation was shoddy. Even more shoddy and shocking is the language and characterization, and even in the KNCHR dossier. Both reports they talk about "attackers" and then classify anyone who helped these so called attackers as being an organizer. The "attackers" in the Waki report include demonstrators protesting the stolen election. So if you offered your church or house to people being shot and chased by the police, you are shielding attackers. This is an outrage and it makes sense to me because from the Waki group. As judge and as a person Waki has demonstrated no interest or particular knowledge of human rights battles in Kenya. To him and his crew everybody is just an "attacker".

To classify victims of state violence who were running for cover, together with criminal gangs causing mayhem and call everybody "attackers" is not just shoddy it verges on sheer incompetence on the part of Waki and group.

Ruto is also right that Waki grouped together acts of simple hooliganism and thuggery as well as the action of protesters as part of the "attackers". I think it was a very deliberate decision to use the term "attackers" to muddy the waters and insulate the Commission from doing a more thorough work and tell Kenyans who did what.

Those are just some of the issues I think Kenyans have a right to question about the Waki report.

Then we have the political dimensions. Tongues are wagging furiously that the Rift Valley M.P's are mad with Raila because Raila supported the Waki report and their next move will be to break away from ODM. Of all the reasons the Rift Valley M.Ps would offer for breaking away from ODM this is by far the worst from a political perspective. Break from ODM any time you want but please don't burden your constituency as being the protectors of political violence in Kenya. The Kalenjin communities played a key role in the battle to dislodge the Kibaki gangs from sticking to power, they deserve better.

The one thing this Rift Valleys M.P's have to consider is who are they going to work with after their telegraphed break up. PNU? The PNU base has been convinced that they were the victims of violence orchestrated by the ODM and now you want to go and tell them "well we have brought in those who killed you and who do not want to face justice, give them around of applause" That is going to go very well, don't you think?

My advice to this M.P's is to stop taking the flack for the real perpetrators of political violence in Kenya. People like Uhuru and Michuki are laughing in glee as they see a section of the ODM take full responsibility for the PEV in Kenya. They don't have to say anything.

I really have no problem with a section of the ODM walking out of the party. It is inevitable but doing it because somebody is telling Kenyans there is something wrong with addressing political violence and impunity is just disastrous for them.

I would be happy if William Ruto was in Kisumu and Kakamega, Mombasa and elsewhere telling Kenyans he is against political violence. He would get a ready audience in Kisumu for example. Those folks know a thing or two about being the victims of political violence in the hands of state agents. Take the battle for an end to impunity to the whole country and stop maligning a single tribe for political protection.

And then we have the outright black mailers who are saying Raila would not be a PM without the resistance of the Kelenjin youths. My be that is true but Raila is not the Prime Minister of the Kalenjins. He is the Prime Minister of Kenya. At least accord him the right to speak for the country which he leads as a PM.

I think many would agree with me in saying it is more preferable to have a Raila who is not a president or PM but believes in and supports human rights than to have President Raila Amolo Odinga who doesn't give a sh.it about human rights abuses in Kenya. I would make that trade in a second.

I think the ODM needs a team of legal experts as well as human rights lawyers to go through the Waki report and to explain to the M.P's what the report actually says. Most of them have no clue. The same team can also help them by giving them some options on what they can do.

But one thing I know is that the ODM falling all over itself in the name of the Waki report is just a sad spectacle. But then again we know these people called the ODM. I for one I am not surprised about any of this. There is more of the same to come I am sure. We will not get tired of telling them what we think.

adongo

Adongo,

Thanks for the response. Very eloquently, simply and clearly explained. I need not add/subtract anything!

I only wish some of the MPs read such blogs like Jukwaa. They could learn a thing or two!

Cheers!

[einstein]

And now the RV MPs are demanding back the envelope from Annan! What a joke! Are the guilty afraid??

Rift Valley leaders want Annan to hand back envelope

[politicalmaniac]

Oct 29, 2008 23:50:28 GMT 3 einstein said:

And now the RV MPs are demanding back the envelope from Annan! What a joke! Are the guilty afraid??

Rift Valley leaders want Annan to hand back envelope

This is why that report is a sham.
Bieng issued in a drip drip drip manner and thus clouding the issue.
Any commission initiated in the MKM era, just like in the Kipkorios era is useless.

[adongo23456]

Oct 30, 2008 0:01:40 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

Oct 29, 2008 23:50:28 GMT 3 einstein said:

And now the RV MPs are demanding back the envelope from Annan! What a joke! Are the guilty afraid??

Rift Valley leaders want Annan to hand back envelope

This is why that report is a sham.
Bieng issued in a drip drip drip manner and thus clouding the issue.
Any commission initiated in the MKM era, just like in the Kipkorios era is useless.

No PM

The Waki report is not a sham. It is the Kenyan politics which is a sham and a joke. I know we could all be laughing if it hasn't been so harmful and tragic to the life of the nation and its peoples.

This is the other group who want to piss on the Waki report and on the Kenyan people. They are very sure they will get away with it. May be.

But here it is.

www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143998185&cid=4&

You know what is really alarming? People who have been accused of crimes rightly or wrongly are coming together and giving a big finger to the Kenyan people. They are almost telling us that the laws of the country are there to serve them and them only. They are saying they do not need due process because they are naturally innocent. They claim the Waki report has convicted them without a hearing. They know they are lying but their message is to tell us they are innocent by force like my buddies used to say in my secondary school days. If you are innocent why do you not want a process that will require your accuser to prove you guilty.

I was sadenned listening to William Ruto alleging that the accused have already been convicted and now how to prove their innocence. Ruto is a smart guy. He knows the meaning of a tribunal. It is just like a court. You can only take the accused there, not the convicted. I know this things. I have been "convicted" before ( i refuse to discuss that now). When you are convicted they lay the hand cuffs on you and take your ass to Kamiti.

"Convicted" people do not hold press conferences and hold rallies. Let's get real.

The big issue is that the politicians are telling us " we will kill you, we will shoot you, we will rape you and there is nothing you can do about it"

The message is clear enough. Lets see how things work out.

adongo

[einstein]

Oct 30, 2008 0:54:52 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

Oct 30, 2008 0:01:40 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

This is why that report is a sham.
Bieng issued in a drip drip drip manner and thus clouding the issue.
Any commission initiated in the MKM era, just like in the Kipkorios era is useless.

No PM

The Waki report is not a sham. It is the Kenyan politics which is a sham and a joke. I know we could all be laughing if it hasn't been so harmful and tragic to the life of the nation and its peoples.

This is the other group who want to piss on the Waki report and on the Kenyan people. They are very sure they will get away with it. May be.

But here it is.

www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1143998185&cid=4&

You know what is really alarming? People who have been accused of crimes rightly or wrongly are coming together and giving a big finger to the Kenyan people. They are almost telling us that the laws of the country are there to serve and them only. They are saying they do not need due process because they are naturally innocent. They claim the Waki report has convicted them without a hearing. They know they are lying but their message is to tell us they are innocent by force like my buddies used to say in my secondary school days. If you are innocent why do you not want a process that will recquire your accuser to prove you guilty.

I was sadenned listening to William Ruto alleging that the accused have already been convicted and now how to prove their innocence. Ruto is a smart guy. He knows the meaning of a tribunal. It is just like a court. You can only take the accused there, not the convicted. I know this things. I have been "convicted" before ( i refuse to discuss that now). When you are convicted they lay the hand cuffs on you and take your ass to Kamiti.

"Convicted" people do not hold press conferences and hold rallies. Let's get real.

The big issue is that the politicians are telling us " we will kill you, we will shoot you, we will rape you and there is nothing you can do about it"

The message is clear enough. Lets see how things work out.

adongo

<< At Central Kenya Parliamentary Group meeting, Uhuru told journalists: "I will comment at the appropriate time… God bless you". >>


Listen to our Prince Killer aka Uhuru Kenyatta wishing others God's blessing! May the same good God refuse to bless him! He is not any different from Judas Iscariot aka Kalonzo Musyoka who prophesied God's miracle during his campaigns ONLY for him to cut a deal with the devil in state house after a below average performance!! It is called taking the short-cut to power by invoking God's holy name!!! How pathetic "God's people" have become in Kenya!!


THE ALMIGHTY GOD COMMANDS US NOT TO USE HIS HOLY NAME IN VAIN!!!!

[jarateng]

Job,

You brought in an angle that most people will always overlook - the role of foreigners in the PEV, assasinations, torture and disappearance of individuals in Kenya. The Mossad was involved in fuelling the violence witnessed in 92 and 97 when Moi was at the helm. Moi relied heavily on the intelligence from Mossad during his entire reign and they gave Biwott, the power man in Moi times, an Israeli wife. Kenyan Intelligence was rated highly during Moi times, not beacause they were good, but because they used Mossad intelligence to keep tabs on the so-called enemies of the state. The Mossad are well known for terrorising their enemies as they are doing in Palestine today. They taught Moi how to kill his 'enemies'. Biwott is the biggest beneficiary (decoy for Moi) as all companies that he is involved with have an Isra-Hell-ish connection. H-Young, Kenol, Pete aviation just to mention a few. The weapons used to kill Kenyans in 92 and 97 were brought in with the help of the Mossad. Today we only speak of the violence witnessed in 92 and 97 with our amnesic minds and forgetting that it was the beginning of massacres of fellow Africans in Kenya in the name of democracy. If I were to take anybody to the Hague, I wil start with Mr. Moi, Biwott and the Isra-Hell-is who helped them stoke the embers that are still burning us today. We Africans are still not yet free. WE NEED LIBERATION. The invisible government led by the CIA, Mossad and the M16 are the ones calling the shots. Thats why the life of a common African is not worth the grave they are burried in because all the land still belongs to the Queen and we are still their subjects. That is why when they see us killing each other, they feel nice about it.

[einstein]

Developing story!

ODM Parliamentary Group meeting rejects Waki report.

[job]

Einstein

That means;

- ODM has succumbed to the whims of IMPUNITY.
- ODM loses the moral authority to demand an end to IMPUNITY or be the agent of CHANGE
- The nation rolls back into gridlock and bickering while IDPs and victims tremble at what awaits them yet again at the next election

IMPUNITY breeds more IMPUNITY

A combination of IMPUNITY from ODM's powerful wing and PNU's Uhuru Kenyatta axis has made IMPUNITY a great winner. Very sad development.

- IMPUNITY has literally tore down the Waki recommendations

Thus ;
-NO TRIBUNAL
-NO handing of suspects to the ICC
-No REAL reforms to the Administration Police & the rest of the police force.

Poleni sana IDPs and victims of PEV......justice may not come easy.....but hopefully it will some day.

[einstein]

Job,

Correct observation. I thought so as well.

And that being the case, why don't we as a nation just then go ahead and legalise IMPUNITY by even entrenching it in our constitution?? I mean IMPUNITY for both the BIG BOYS and the SMALL BOYS; IMPUNITY for both the BIG GIRLS and the SMALL GIRLS.

Simply put, IMPUNITY for EVERYBODY!!! Let's be a NATION OF IMPUNITY!!!

That will be a WIN-WIN or LOSE-LOSE situation for ALL of us!

When will I ever wake up from this nightmare?? My whole life as a Kenyan has simply been a nightmare!!

[politicalmaniac]

The Waki report was doomed to failure from the start simply because we as a Nation have not yet arrived to the point where we look at ourselves as a people with one common goal, rather than, a collection of tribal enclaves.

There are three people and their henchmen responsible for this and thats Jomo snr, Kipkorios and the sloth kegs de othaya.

The Waki report, compiled by a group appointed by politicians who did not consult interested stakeholders was doomed to failure. I just dont think it was transpearent enough. Moreover key persons who were accused to have played a role in the fostering of post election violence were not deposed. Was kegs deposed under oath? jomo jnr? Ruto?

All we had was individuals talking about their experiences with no point by interrogation.

I think the effort whose intention was noble, had a half baked approach and execution.

Thats why I say its a sham. But thats my view and I stand corrected.

[job]

PM

You say'

The Waki report was doomed to failure from the start simply because we as a Nation have not yet arrived to the point where we look at ourselves as a people with one common goal, rather than, a collection of tribal enclaves.

When will we arrive at that point? Don't you think the PEV was one such point - a perfect opportunity to show how interconnected our destinies are as a nation?

Moreover key persons who were accused to have played a role in the fostering of post election violence were not deposed. Was kegs deposed under oath? jomo jnr? Ruto?

Isn't the tribunal THE perfect place for all suspects to get their chance to rebutt any accusations?

The commision called Kibaki to testify - he flatly refused. Moi was called, he refused to come. Do you smell IMPUNITY?

That's the problem right there. IMPUNITY. Not the execution by the Waki commission.

Some of these commissions always end up with good recommendations which are then either ignored or flatly stonewalled. Waki's seems to be following in the same footsteps.

Goldenberg Commission for instance recommended that Saitoti be investigated (evidence collection) and prosecuted. Kibaki instead went ahead to use the judiciary to absolve Saitoti. That's the mtafanya nini element of IMPUNITY.

Waki's was just a fact-finding template, not the alpha and omega.

Ruto was called, he came and gave his views. Uhuru was called, he did the same. The tribunal would have been a perfect place to clear names, rather than leave wananchi's jury to make their own verdict out there based on hearsay.

But I guess the victims of PEV are just way at the bottom of the foodchain - no one cares. Folks like Oloo's brother in law who were shot by rogue Administration Policemen or others who were burnt in Eldoret & Naivasha may not get justice afterall.

Basi kazi iendelee