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Post by mank on Mar 23, 2010 15:50:16 GMT 3
Phil,
Personally I am not defending anything. All I am saying is that our media needs to rise up and do journalism as it ought. While I have not had the time to comprehensively read all the new posts you guys have done since my last, I can already sense that Jukwaa is doing a better job on the issue than does the media. It is frustrating to read some of our news and news commentaries, especially when opinions as to what is going on are widespread because those commentaries either start the opinions or fan them without substantive information. So many times and on crucial matters we just have to take what our journalists say because the bulk of their reporting is their opinions with little analysis, or analytical material, on the matter they report.
It could very well be that there is something even more sinister going on than PEV backdrops or a tag of war between 2 senior police officers. But the media has already shaped our minds, with what to me seems no journalism at all ... the debate now is whether I am shielding those out to kill Kaunya. The main story that we all read cannot give us talking points. Surely, people who go to schools of journalism should be better at it than you and I.
Somewhere in this thread it has been reported that Kaunya said the people trailing him are known to him. Why would he hold anything back after saying such a thing - what would get him killed faster than that, if he is a marked man? And I am not saying he would never do ... but if I was the journalist I would decide that to be important to the audience, and I would find it out from the source of the balded information and write it for the audience that wants to analyze reporting.
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Post by tiskie on Mar 23, 2010 17:23:47 GMT 3
Do the Rogue police ever stop assassination? or were they caught nealy accomplishing the act? most assassinations are planned by the top guy" it was previously Kenyatta, "J.M Karuiki, Pinto among others then Moi - Ouko? Anglican cleric Bishop Alexander Muge, Masinde Muliro poisoned among others then Kibaki - Dr. Chrispin Mbai, MP Were, execution of Mungiki youth and many innocent Kenyans in Mt. Elgon and other parts of the country and many more Members of parliament that either died under suspicious plane crashes and other related accidents Ocampo has on tape curtsy of the whistle blowers and some Rogue Police who have come out to speak... na mambo bado..
Kibaki & Co are jittery they have no idea among the hired thugs & Police elite force they have previously engaged to do their dirty work.. who have now told on them .to Ocampo.. When people get into power they forget they are dispensable... The should take a leaf from Saddam Hussein case!!
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Post by Horth on Mar 23, 2010 21:27:10 GMT 3
Mank & Kamale,Gado puts it very nicely on what is on peoples minds regarding the PEV violence and the ICC. Whether the journalists hyped it up with their well know "professionalism" is not the issue. Kenyan's are always ready to believe that their government is able to commit unspeakable atrocities.
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Post by mank on Mar 24, 2010 1:42:51 GMT 3
I wish I had seen it only on Gado. I like the story I see in that cartoon than the one that starts this thread.
To you journalism is not the issue, to me it is. Just like you, I know the government commits atrocities. If that is what we are debating, the debate is over now.
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Post by Horth on Mar 24, 2010 11:31:13 GMT 3
Mank,
You got me wrong. I abhor the kind of journalism we find here in Kenya with zero research (99.98% wikipedia), really bad analysis (throw dice?), and, as Kamale mentioned, no follow up at all.
In this specific case, the public was more than ready to believe anything to do with Kaunya being killed by the ICC perpetrators to cover themselves. What our journalists did, to sell their papers, was just to reinforce that belief with horrible reporting. But it does not change the fact that the public still believes ICC perpetrators would kill to cover themselves.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 24, 2010 15:16:52 GMT 3
What are you ON about Kamale? Why all the side shows? Am glad you agree Kaunya will be witness. Only that I have not specified on which side Kaunya will be witness as you are attempting to do. Neither have I exonerated former Police Commissioner Maj-Gen Ali who you introduce to this thread as a diversionary tactic. Maj-Gen Ali equally has his case to answer but this thread was never about that. If we agree that he will be a witness, then whose witness will he be? The people who want to kill him must be the ones he will testify against! I am certain we can agree one this!! All I have said is that Kaunya remains a high profile witness. I have also demonstrated how he is personally linked to the activities of the APs in election rigging and PEV. Why anyone wants him out of the way is a matter that is so open. For all intents and purposes, you intention was to place a blame finger on the government for working to finish this man! If was personally linked to the activities of the APs in election rigging and PEV, what makes hime different from commissioner Ali or Kibaki for that matter? If they are ALL in the same boat, why would they want to kill "one of their own?" You and I know the AP Commandant does not report to the Police Commissioner. That is a violation of the law and it is because apparently, Kibaki and Michuki irregularly changed all that and Mbugua now reports directly to "his commanders" whom he shares an office with at the Office of the President along Harambee Avenue. When they hatched this illegal specialized training for APs to impersonate ECK Returning Officers, Maj-Gen Ali was never consulted, parliament had already been dissolved. This is a silly plot that was cooked in State House and it has backfired on them badly! Next time you want assert something especially when you invoke names, please make sure you know what you are talking about and are not just peddling lies! How can you talk of an illegality whilst you have not bothered to read Cap 65 which creates the Administration Police? Perhaps it will make you laugh and help also confirm why Kinuthia works from Harambee House. The Minister of Internal security is officially the Commandant of the AP's and he or the president may have delegated this command to Kinuthia. Just where is this irregularity or violation of the law? Sadly many Kenyans needlessly lost their lives because of the selfishness and the resolve of some to hold on to power regardless of what Kenyans decided in the election. Another generalised statements. How many people died "in the hands of selfishness and resolve to hold on to power" in comparison to those that dies in the hands of "those on losing the election" decided to revenge against their very own compatriots? Therefore Bw. Kamale, my arguments may seem silly to you, but the fact remains APs were implicated in election rigging and in the PEV. Everyone, including Justices Waki and Kriegler know that. Fact? check again!
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2010 15:47:37 GMT 3
Kamale,
You make no sense at all. The fact that this guy was an AP senior official of some kind at the time the AP were involved in rigging elections and killing people after citizens rejected rigged elections does not mean he cannot be a witness against the state. Your idea that the guy is in the same category as others like Kibaki, Ali or Kinuthia does not exclude him from providing evidence against those people. In fact it gives him special knowledge on how the government killing machine worked.
The way ICC and smart investigative bodies act is to get those who are inside the institutions and organizations being investigated who are willing to cooperate, let them provide the information and then provide them with witness protection.
Look how they burst mafia gangs all over the world. They get mobsters who come out and cooperate and give info to nail the big fish. Those who cooperate are offered witness protection and in some cases even moved to other countries. ICC does the same thing.
The one thing about this Kiunya guy which is interesting to me is that he was a very senior official in the AP Training School where the government killing and rigging machine was being masterminded. There were stories about the activities in the school in the media at the time. In fact they even had direct interviews from those who wanted to warn the public. We had people being interviewed whose faces were covered and voices altered for safety. They warned the country of what was brewing in there. These things are in the public domain. Then we had those convoys of private buses headed to Western Kenya loaded with heavily armed APs. Again that is in the public domain.
There is no doubt that the AP activities will be at the centre of Ocampo investigations. If there are people there with evidence and who are ready to provide that evidence for the sake of their country that would be great. Whether this guy is one such person, we will know.
adongo
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Post by roughrider on Mar 24, 2010 16:10:03 GMT 3
Folks, there is a war going on between the AP and the regular police. From what i hear, the recent discovery of an arms cache in Narok has exposed some of the ugly goings on.
There is an urgent need to reign in the AP and ensure it is stripped of political and increasingly odious command.
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Post by phil on Mar 24, 2010 17:16:59 GMT 3
Kamalet
It does not matter in whose favour Kaunya will appear at the ICC. That was never a issue in this thread and I wonder why you want to push this angle. What we all desire is the delivery of justice to victims of PEV and an end to impunity in our country.
It is a fact Kaunya was running away from presumed assassins who have been identified as government agents. Now, it is up to you to decide whether it is an official government policy to eliminate witnesses or it is just the work of guilty agents within government who do not want to be fingered by Kaunya.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 24, 2010 19:05:32 GMT 3
Kamale,You make no sense at all. The fact that this guy was an AP senior official of some kind at the time the AP were involved in rigging elections and killing people after citizens rejected rigged elections does not mean he cannot be a witness against the state. Your idea that the guy is in the same category as others like Kibaki, Ali or Kinuthia does not exclude him from providing evidence against those people. In fact it gives him special knowledge on how the government killing machine worked. The way ICC and smart investigative bodies act is to get those who are inside the institutions and organizations being investigated who are willing to cooperate, let them provide the information and then provide them with witness protection. Look how they burst mafia gangs all over the world. They get mobsters who come out and cooperate and give info to nail the big fish. Those who cooperate are offered witness protection and in some cases even moved to other countries. ICC does the same thing. The one thing about this Kiunya guy which is interesting to me is that he was a very senior official in the AP Training School where the government killing and rigging machine was being masterminded. There were stories about the activities in the school in the media at the time. In fact they even had direct interviews from those who wanted to warn the public. We had people being interviewed whose faces were covered and voices altered for safety. They warned the country of what was brewing in there. These things are in the public domain. Then we had those convoys of private buses headed to Western Kenya loaded with heavily armed APs. Again that is in the public domain. There is no doubt that the AP activities will be at the centre of Ocampo investigations. If there are people there with evidence and who are ready to provide that evidence for the sake of their country that would be great. Whether this guy is one such person, we will know. adongo Bollocks!!!! So he commands the AP as they commit the alleged atrocities and becomes a witness against the state!!! How about the same being said of commissioner Ali as I asked earlier....he too could be a state witness under the same circumstances..ama!!! Why do you guys take people for fools?? This guy is nothing but a publicity seeking fool and there is history to back him up!
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Post by roughrider on Mar 24, 2010 20:00:43 GMT 3
"This guy is nothing but a publicity seeking fool.... " Says Kamale
Surely there is no reason to be foul-mouthed about this. I dont really see how else this type of publicity is helping Kaunya, other than as insurance. We should patiently (and with good humour) wait and see what Mr. Kaunya has to say to the ICC, when and if it comes to that.
PS: folks, we should remember, even as we speak, that there are several witnesses who are under protection in safe houses after this type of threats so i am under no illusions. We had better err on the side of caution.
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Post by enigma on Mar 24, 2010 20:56:18 GMT 3
Kamale,You make no sense at all. The fact that this guy was an AP senior official of some kind at the time the AP were involved in rigging elections and killing people after citizens rejected rigged elections does not mean he cannot be a witness against the state. Your idea that the guy is in the same category as others like Kibaki, Ali or Kinuthia does not exclude him from providing evidence against those people. In fact it gives him special knowledge on how the government killing machine worked. The way ICC and smart investigative bodies act is to get those who are inside the institutions and organizations being investigated who are willing to cooperate, let them provide the information and then provide them with witness protection. Look how they burst mafia gangs all over the world. They get mobsters who come out and cooperate and give info to nail the big fish. Those who cooperate are offered witness protection and in some cases even moved to other countries. ICC does the same thing. The one thing about this Kiunya guy which is interesting to me is that he was a very senior official in the AP Training School where the government killing and rigging machine was being masterminded. There were stories about the activities in the school in the media at the time. In fact they even had direct interviews from those who wanted to warn the public. We had people being interviewed whose faces were covered and voices altered for safety. They warned the country of what was brewing in there. These things are in the public domain. Then we had those convoys of private buses headed to Western Kenya loaded with heavily armed APs. Again that is in the public domain. There is no doubt that the AP activities will be at the centre of Ocampo investigations. If there are people there with evidence and who are ready to provide that evidence for the sake of their country that would be great. Whether this guy is one such person, we will know. adongo Bollocks!!!! So he commands the AP as they commit the alleged atrocities and becomes a witness against the state!!! How about the same being said of commissioner Ali as I asked earlier....he too could be a state witness under the same circumstances..ama!!! Why do you guys take people for fools?? This guy is nothing but a publicity seeking fool and there is history to back him up! It would be interesting to see how the ICC deals with the chain of command. Did orders come down from Ali's office? Does the buck stop with Ali or does it extend to the parent ministry and as far as statehouse? Would a subordinate of Ali implementing those orders be culpable? No doubt these are matters to be dealt with by ICC. But witnesses are being hunted by the powers that be and that is what we have to deal with at the moment.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2010 21:16:57 GMT 3
enigma,
Kenyans are brave people. If the ICC accepts the case and Ocampo comes to town, those who know what happened will come up. Nobody is going to stop them. But we really need to get this witness protection working for real. That will never happen until the ICC takes the case and then by the Rome Statute be obliged to supervise or otherwise provide credible witness protection.
The Kenyan police and administrative system cannot and will not provide witness protection.
I think the ICC ruling is the next bombshell in Kenya whichever way it goes. And can anybody believe that this may come at the same time as Kenya gets a new constitution. There is always hope for our country. That much I know. We all know that.
adongo
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Post by kamalet on Mar 24, 2010 21:49:54 GMT 3
"This guy is nothing but a publicity seeking fool.... " Says KamaleSurely there is no reason to be foul-mouthed about this. I dont really see how else this type of publicity is helping Kaunya, other than as insurance. We should patiently (and with good humour) wait and see what Mr. Kaunya has to say to the ICC, when and if it comes to that. PS: folks, we should remember, even as we speak, that there are several witnesses who are under protection in safe houses after this type of threats so i am under no illusions. We had better err on the side of caution. If he did not have a history of publicity seeking, then I would have given him the benefit of doubt. If you were a victim and have information on who organised the killing of your relative, friend or just any Kenyan, then you deserve all the protection this world can give you. But please spare me the story of a man who goes to Vihiga to see some side kick after telling the missus he was headed for Kisumu airport, and when the wife cries foul, he appears saying that Mudavadi never speaks on his cellphone whenever he is home as the area has no network - hence no one could reach him! Is it any wonder that when when the media went running to Orwa Ojode, he just told them to tell the wife to report to the police that her husband is missing? I do not believe that Ojode of all people would be that callous if the man had reported threats on his life on account of his "knowledge of 2008 events". The threats could have come from people he owes money or even mpango ya kando biashara gone awry! Do not believe everyhtng you are told!
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2010 22:36:37 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 24, 2010 22:46:24 GMT 3
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Post by Horth on Mar 25, 2010 0:34:40 GMT 3
Having given this whole sad story some serious heavy duty thought, it seems to me that Kamale and Mank might have a few points which we’re not debating.
First, we know very well that Kibaki is someone who only trusts homeboys with his shenanigans and does not accept the inclusion of “outsiders”. The tag MKM did not just pop out of thin air. For example, Maj.-Gen. Ali was kept out of the loop with the Armenians and he admitted this much to us, live on TV. This could mean that Kaunya’s only involvement in the PEV was acting under orders from his immediate supervisors. As he was not a homeboy, he would therefore not know the details of the rigging and the subsequent plans to kill. Whatever the case may be, his orders could have been simply to bus these 100 boys to Western. Sir Yes Sir!
As we all know, being in the security forces and refusing to obey orders is, well, not considered healthy and you do not question your superiors. As Phil says, he may have presided over the training but he had to follow the chain of command. That was his job. He may have suspected rigging and organized killing but with the chain of command during the PEV still functioning, only an idiot would disobey his superiors orders. But suspicion does not imply proof. And during the violence, what was he supposed to do? There were riots and the AP’s are mandated to keep the peace. An AP officer who has been ordered by his superiors to keep the peace. He job is to do, not ask why. My cousin was one of the AP’s in town. He knew the election was rigged. What would your advice to him have been? To all of them? Please note that I’m not defending them. I’m just telling it like it was, before the commission reports were even commissioned.
Even though the Waki and Kriegler reports explicitly implicated the AP, this does not mean that all personnel in the AP are culpable. That’s false logic.
Secondly, with time having moved on and the ICC expectantly being involved in the investigations of the PEV, Kaunya probably wants to reap from the spoils if and when Kinuthia Mbugua is taken away. He then concocts a story to make himself look like someone under siege to gain public sympathy. Is it possible? Yes, we’ve had many such cases where public figures run out screaming that they’re being targeted for this or that reason. In most of the cases, it’s only when they’ve messed up and are afraid of facing the music. Remember the “money has been poured to finish me” line? Same thing, different day.
Thirdly, where are the politicians? There is a certain party which hates Kibaki and would use any God given chance to get back at him. He stole their victory. He killed their supporters. Here we supposedly have a live “insider witness” of the plans Kibaki used to stage his civilian coup. And the man is fearful of his life. Major payback time is at hand. But they’re quiet. Very quiet. Why are they so quiet? Are they not interested or maybe just happy with their nusu mkate? Or do they know something we don’t? Like that he’s maybe a fraud?
You see, we’ve become so accustomed to the AP’s being the big bad boys that when internal fights such as the one between Kaunya and his bosses break out, we automatically assume it’s because of the PEV. But where’s the evidence? Like I wrote, the Waki and Kriegler reports do not implicate everybody in the AP. Just the top echelons. But exactly who? The only things I’ve seen are badly written and researched newspaper articles quoting dubious “sources”. KNCHR have themselves admitted that he’s not known as a witness and if they did, wouldn’t they spirit him far away? Why leave him to dangle in the wind, as Githongo would say? This sucker could nail the main hombres. But they’re not interested? Why? So where did this issue that he is a big important witness come from?
The shoddy journalism.
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Post by enigma on Mar 25, 2010 3:37:34 GMT 3
"This guy is nothing but a publicity seeking fool.... " Says KamaleSurely there is no reason to be foul-mouthed about this. I dont really see how else this type of publicity is helping Kaunya, other than as insurance. We should patiently (and with good humour) wait and see what Mr. Kaunya has to say to the ICC, when and if it comes to that. PS: folks, we should remember, even as we speak, that there are several witnesses who are under protection in safe houses after this type of threats so i am under no illusions. We had better err on the side of caution. If he did not have a history of publicity seeking, then I would have given him the benefit of doubt. If you were a victim and have information on who organised the killing of your relative, friend or just any Kenyan, then you deserve all the protection this world can give you. But please spare me the story of a man who goes to Vihiga to see some side kick after telling the missus he was headed for Kisumu airport, and when the wife cries foul, he appears saying that Mudavadi never speaks on his cellphone whenever he is home as the area has no network - hence no one could reach him! Is it any wonder that when when the media went running to Orwa Ojode, he just told them to tell the wife to report to the police that her husband is missing? I do not believe that Ojode of all people would be that callous if the man had reported threats on his life on account of his "knowledge of 2008 events". The threats could have come from people he owes money or even mpango ya kando biashara gone awry! Do not believe everyhtng you are told! Kamalet, So what do you have to say of the Kipkelion and Kiambaa massacre winesses?
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Post by phil on Mar 25, 2010 9:25:20 GMT 3
Hehehe! This is giving them sleepless nights, I tell you!
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Post by kunadawa on Mar 25, 2010 12:31:12 GMT 3
But please spare me the story of a man who goes to Vihiga to see some side kick after telling the missus he was headed for Kisumu airport, and when the wife cries foul, he appears saying that Mudavadi never speaks on his cellphone whenever he is home as the area has no network - hence no one could reach him! Is it any wonder that when when the media went running to Orwa Ojode, he just told them to tell the wife to report to the police that her husband is missing? I do not believe that Ojode of all people would be that callous if the man had reported threats on his life on account of his "knowledge of 2008 events". The threats could have come from people he owes money or even mpango ya kando biashara gone awry! Do not believe everyhtng you are told! This Kaunya fellow would make an excellent character for a local soap or a Nigerian tragi-comedy. His wife would have a perfect supporting role. After Kaunya's reapperance, they told the press that the wife's earlier announcement of Kaunya's dissapearance (and presumed assassination) was simply a ploy they had concocted so as to gauge the reaction (or to expose) the fellows who had been threatening and/or following Kaunya. Apparently, engaging in mpango wa kando business bila plan does tend to have far-reaching complications as was demonstrated in the cases of the late Mugabe Melitus Were, immediate former MP for Embakasi and the late David Kimutai Too, immediate former MP for Ainamoi. I however do sincerely doubt that investigating and prosecuting fall-out from mipango-wa-kando deals gone wrong does fall within the ambit of Moreno Ocampo and ICC
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Post by mank on Mar 25, 2010 15:01:45 GMT 3
Mank,You got me wrong. I abhor the kind of journalism we find here in Kenya with zero research (99.98% wikipedia), really bad analysis (throw dice?), and, as Kamale mentioned, no follow up at all. In this specific case, the public was more than ready to believe anything to do with Kaunya being killed by the ICC perpetrators to cover themselves. What our journalists did, to sell their papers, was just to reinforce that belief with horrible reporting. But it does not change the fact that the public still believes ICC perpetrators would kill to cover themselves. Sorry for the misinterpretation. After realizing that it duped people into believing that Kaunya would be another political assassination for investigation the media should by now be pondering this Kaunya debacle from both perspectives: one, that indeed the disappearance had connections to death threat, and the other, that these 2 are totally unrelated. So far people are just choosing what to believe depending on their own inclinations, not on the facts of the disappearance (which are entirely lacking).
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Post by Horth on Mar 25, 2010 15:27:13 GMT 3
So far people are just choosing what to believe depending on their own inclinations, not on the facts of the disappearance (which are entirely lacking). I asked a few questions in a later post and nobody seems to dare answer them. If the Kaunya case was so straightforward as most people are saying, then it would be very easy to supply full answers to those questions. This whole story just doesn't make sense unless one factors in the shoddy reporting. Only then does it make sense.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2010 17:29:15 GMT 3
Having given this whole sad story some serious heavy duty thought, it seems to me that Kamale and Mank might have a few points which we’re not debating. First, we know very well that Kibaki is someone who only trusts homeboys with his shenanigans and does not accept the inclusion of “outsiders”. The tag MKM did not just pop out of thin air. For example, Maj.-Gen. Ali was kept out of the loop with the Armenians and he admitted this much to us, live on TV. This could mean that Kaunya’s only involvement in the PEV was acting under orders from his immediate supervisors. As he was not a homeboy, he would therefore not know the details of the rigging and the subsequent plans to kill. Whatever the case may be, his orders could have been simply to bus these 100 boys to Western. Sir Yes Sir! As we all know, being in the security forces and refusing to obey orders is, well, not considered healthy and you do not question your superiors. As Phil says, he may have presided over the training but he had to follow the chain of command. That was his job. He may have suspected rigging and organized killing but with the chain of command during the PEV still functioning, only an idiot would disobey his superiors orders. But suspicion does not imply proof. And during the violence, what was he supposed to do? There were riots and the AP’s are mandated to keep the peace. An AP officer who has been ordered by his superiors to keep the peace. He job is to do, not ask why. My cousin was one of the AP’s in town. He knew the election was rigged. What would your advice to him have been? To all of them? Please note that I’m not defending them. I’m just telling it like it was, before the commission reports were even commissioned. Even though the Waki and Kriegler reports explicitly implicated the AP, this does not mean that all personnel in the AP are culpable. That’s false logic. Secondly, with time having moved on and the ICC expectantly being involved in the investigations of the PEV, Kaunya probably wants to reap from the spoils if and when Kinuthia Mbugua is taken away. He then concocts a story to make himself look like someone under siege to gain public sympathy. Is it possible? Yes, we’ve had many such cases where public figures run out screaming that they’re being targeted for this or that reason. In most of the cases, it’s only when they’ve messed up and are afraid of facing the music. Remember the “money has been poured to finish me” line? Same thing, different day. Thirdly, where are the politicians? There is a certain party which hates Kibaki and would use any God given chance to get back at him. He stole their victory. He killed their supporters. Here we supposedly have a live “insider witness” of the plans Kibaki used to stage his civilian coup. And the man is fearful of his life. Major payback time is at hand. But they’re quiet. Very quiet. Why are they so quiet? Are they not interested or maybe just happy with their nusu mkate? Or do they know something we don’t? Like that he’s maybe a fraud? You see, we’ve become so accustomed to the AP’s being the big bad boys that when internal fights such as the one between Kaunya and his bosses break out, we automatically assume it’s because of the PEV. But where’s the evidence? Like I wrote, the Waki and Kriegler reports do not implicate everybody in the AP. Just the top echelons. But exactly who? The only things I’ve seen are badly written and researched newspaper articles quoting dubious “sources”. KNCHR have themselves admitted that he’s not known as a witness and if they did, wouldn’t they spirit him far away? Why leave him to dangle in the wind, as Githongo would say? This sucker could nail the main hombres. But they’re not interested? Why? So where did this issue that he is a big important witness come from? The shoddy journalism. Horth,Forget about "shoddy journalism". Here you are being an outright apologist for state terrorism. That is your right. We too have ours. The citizens of the republic have a right not to be killed and/or terrorized by state agents. The world saw in live pictures and video clips security agents, APs, GSU, regular police shooting Kenyans at will. Women were raped and their bodies vandalized by state security agents. I suppose all that was done to protect Kenyans. Why am I not amused? But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions. Good luck my friend. adongo
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Post by kunadawa on Mar 25, 2010 18:00:18 GMT 3
But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions. including mipango ya kando shenanigans?
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Post by kamalet on Mar 25, 2010 18:58:58 GMT 3
Horth,Forget about "shoddy journalism". Here you are being an outright apologist for state terrorism. That is your right. We too have ours. The citizens of the republic have a right not to be killed and/or terrorized by state agents. The world saw in live pictures and video clips security agents, APs, GSU, regular police shooting Kenyans at will. Women were raped and their bodies vandalized by state security agents. I suppose all that was done to protect Kenyans. Why am I not amused? But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions. Good luck my friend. adongo Poor Horth cannot be allowedto have a mind of his own and when he sits back and tries to understand this story and it does not add up - he comesto Jukwaa and tells us so! Now he has been reduced to an apologist for state terrorism! What these people who stand up to state terrorism are not telling us is whether Kaunya was the commandant of NYS Gilgil Training College and since the NYS were not involved, he still managed to get information that makes him a dead man walking!!! These fellows keep accusing the Police and AP for their roles in the atrocities and forget that they had commanders giving them instructions - now they want to selectively exonerate certain commanders, presumable only for the reason of where they come from.....as was the case of Kaunya! If all of you answered the questions raised by Horth, then the mpango ya kando idea does seem feasible!
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