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Post by Horth on Mar 25, 2010 19:29:41 GMT 3
Forget about "shoddy journalism". Here you are being an outright apologist for state terrorism. That is your right. We too have ours. The citizens of the republic have a right not to be killed and/or terrorized by state agents. The world saw in live pictures and video clips security agents, APs, GSU, regular police shooting Kenyans at will. Women were raped and their bodies vandalized by state security agents. I suppose all that was done to protect Kenyans. Why am I not amused? But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions. Good luck my friend. adongo Adongo,What I'm asking for is the lead up to the "fact" that Kaunya is a witness of the PEV planning. All I've been seeing are assumptions, assumptions that since he was “somewhere near” the AP center he must know something. Assumptions that since he went into “hiding”, he must be a marked man because of the ICC. Assumptions that despite the KNCHR denying him as a witness, he still knows something Ocampo needs. Just how many people are in the AP training centre? How come not more of them are running for their lives? Are we to believe the PEV masterminds are so dumb, that after planning the rigging and violence, they can’t get one lousy guy? A guy with no protection at all? They send killers who instead of killing him, “menacingly demanded for Sh2,000 from boda boda operators” instead of earning a cool three million? Huh, Daffy Duck is an AP? And we’re supposed to believe that gibberish? All these assumptions are based on a couple of poorly written newspaper articles with vague sources. The information in the newspapers just doesn’t make sense. It’s stupid, for a lack of a better word. Is that too much to ask? Note that I'm not assuming (there’s that word again) he's innocent but before we start screaming that's he knows something and "they" are after him, I would like to know just how the newspapers managed to link him to the PEV. Information which nobody else seems to have. Did he tell them himself? If yes, why doesn’t he go to KNCHR? Don’t you think the western countries would help him, since he supposedly knows the masterminds? Jeez, how many Kenyan’s were helped by the western embassies during Moi’s time? And the Charterhouse bank folks? And this guy supposedly has the goods on El Presidente Kibaki and his henchmen preparing and executing crimes against humanity? Yes, I would like the guilty parties to be taken to The Hague but when we start witch hunting like this is when I grow fearful. For our nation. If we want to survive as a nation, then we must all follow the law, despite the thugs in government breaking it with impunity.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 25, 2010 19:46:54 GMT 3
poor Horth, as Kamale calls you,
Only the ICC will address the issue of who committed what crimes in the PEV. Our so called government could figure that out. Your guess is as good as mine as to why.
I rest my case.
adongo
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Post by enigma on Mar 25, 2010 19:53:33 GMT 3
Forget about "shoddy journalism". Here you are being an outright apologist for state terrorism. That is your right. We too have ours. The citizens of the republic have a right not to be killed and/or terrorized by state agents. The world saw in live pictures and video clips security agents, APs, GSU, regular police shooting Kenyans at will. Women were raped and their bodies vandalized by state security agents. I suppose all that was done to protect Kenyans. Why am I not amused? But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions. Good luck my friend. adongo Adongo,What I'm asking for is the lead up to the "fact" that Kaunya is a witness of the PEV planning. All I've been seeing are assumptions, assumptions that since he was “somewhere near” the AP center he must know something. Assumptions that since he went into “hiding”, he must be a marked man because of the ICC. Assumptions that despite the KNCHR denying him as a witness, he still knows something Ocampo needs. Just how many people are in the AP training centre? How come not more of them are running for their lives? Are we to believe the PEV masterminds are so dumb, that after planning the rigging and violence, they can’t get one lousy guy? A guy with no protection at all? They send killers who instead of killing him, “menacingly demanded for Sh2,000 from boda boda operators” instead of earning a cool three million? Huh, Daffy Duck is an AP? And we’re supposed to believe that gibberish? All these assumptions are based on a couple of poorly written newspaper articles with vague sources. The information in the newspapers just doesn’t make sense. It’s stupid, for a lack of a better word. Is that too much to ask? Note that I'm not assuming (there’s that word again) he's innocent but before we start screaming that's he knows something and "they" are after him, I would like to know just how the newspapers managed to link him to the PEV. Information which nobody else seems to have. Did he tell them himself? If yes, why doesn’t he go to KNCHR? Don’t you think the western countries would help him, since he supposedly knows the masterminds? Jeez, how many Kenyan’s were helped by the western embassies during Moi’s time? And the Charterhouse bank folks? And this guy supposedly has the goods on El Presidente Kibaki and his henchmen preparing and executing crimes against humanity? Yes, I would like the guilty parties to be taken to The Hague but when we start witch hunting like this is when I grow fearful. For our nation. If we want to survive as a nation, then we must all follow the law, despite the thugs in government breaking it with impunity. Horth, Mank and Emkei There are snippets of his statement to the police in the breaking story. The fullness of that statement will answer some of the questions you raise. But if you can find that story, you can make some postulations as to why he is a wanted man. Mine are postulations at the moment and I am ready to revise them as evidence comes to light. In a country like Kenya, you should always be alert regardless of your party or persuasion.
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Post by Horth on Mar 25, 2010 20:16:23 GMT 3
Only the ICC will address the issue of who committed what crimes in the PEV. Our so called government could figure that out. Your guess is as good as mine as to why. adongo Adongo,Exactly what I was getting at. The newspapers took it upon themselves to be the judge and jury in Kaunya's case, which I found appalling. Kibaki would never allow the government to find the truth. It's him. Enigma,Thanks, just what I expected to hear also. Mine are also postulations even though I do have my private ideas on who the main culprits are.
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Post by tnk on Mar 25, 2010 23:48:19 GMT 3
horth
the fact is that this man has received death threats and reported it as such
some may say its a business deal gone sour, others see political reasons
first what kind of business is this that people engage in such that when there is a fall out, death is a solution or option?
from the press reports, the two fellows apprehended were APs ostensibly trying to trace computers "stolen" from embakassi. it has been reported that APs have no detective wing (surprise surprise). if that story had any credibility, APs being well versed with the law, somebody would have quoted some OB yada yada, that story has so far fizzzled out. either those APs (apprehended) will be thrown under the bus or some OB material will get cooked. anyhow they took the law into their hands. that cannot be good
anyhow reasonable people would err on the side of caution because, if kaunya is lying and its just some business deal he has not honored, then in a few weeks we will see him being taken to court for a breach of contract, MOU or whatever, and we'll laugh ourselves silly
if however he is not lying, then someone will point you to the obituary pages. and then you will still be arguing whether its political or deal gone sour but with a bitter taste in your mouth.
on the issue of shoddy journalism
this is a sad kenyan trait, where everyone else (that guy over there especially if he is from...) cant do their job right only me (and this jamaa here if he is of the same persuasion). kamalet has been talking about how the speaker can do his job better, others have said how PM ought to be an effective PM etc.
so is the journalism shoddy because they didnt meet (y)our threshold of proof? how did you set the standard/threshold of credibility? if you were a journalist with limited information, would you withhold at the risk of an individual losing their life or would you publish even while investigating the finer details? that kind of call depends on many factors and i guess is case by case. we have no idea what sort of information has been withheld by either kaunya, the bounty hunters, the press or police.
understand am not bashing you, just wondering if you are really thinking through all this.
first things first i think would be get the man out of line of danger, then put him to task on the allegations and since we cannot do that locally lets see if Ocampo can do the necessary.
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Post by mank on Mar 26, 2010 5:11:34 GMT 3
Having given this whole sad story some serious heavy duty thought, it seems to me that Kamale and Mank might have a few points which we’re not debating. First, we know very well that Kibaki is someone who only trusts homeboys with his shenanigans and does not accept the inclusion of “outsiders”. The tag MKM did not just pop out of thin air. For example, Maj.-Gen. Ali was kept out of the loop with the Armenians and he admitted this much to us, live on TV. This could mean that Kaunya’s only involvement in the PEV was acting under orders from his immediate supervisors. As he was not a homeboy, he would therefore not know the details of the rigging and the subsequent plans to kill. Whatever the case may be, his orders could have been simply to bus these 100 boys to Western. Sir Yes Sir! As we all know, being in the security forces and refusing to obey orders is, well, not considered healthy and you do not question your superiors. As Phil says, he may have presided over the training but he had to follow the chain of command. That was his job. He may have suspected rigging and organized killing but with the chain of command during the PEV still functioning, only an idiot would disobey his superiors orders. But suspicion does not imply proof. And during the violence, what was he supposed to do? There were riots and the AP’s are mandated to keep the peace. An AP officer who has been ordered by his superiors to keep the peace. He job is to do, not ask why. My cousin was one of the AP’s in town. He knew the election was rigged. What would your advice to him have been? To all of them? Please note that I’m not defending them. I’m just telling it like it was, before the commission reports were even commissioned. Even though the Waki and Kriegler reports explicitly implicated the AP, this does not mean that all personnel in the AP are culpable. That’s false logic. Secondly, with time having moved on and the ICC expectantly being involved in the investigations of the PEV, Kaunya probably wants to reap from the spoils if and when Kinuthia Mbugua is taken away. He then concocts a story to make himself look like someone under siege to gain public sympathy. Is it possible? Yes, we’ve had many such cases where public figures run out screaming that they’re being targeted for this or that reason. In most of the cases, it’s only when they’ve messed up and are afraid of facing the music. Remember the “money has been poured to finish me” line? Same thing, different day. Thirdly, where are the politicians? There is a certain party which hates Kibaki and would use any God given chance to get back at him. He stole their victory. He killed their supporters. Here we supposedly have a live “insider witness” of the plans Kibaki used to stage his civilian coup. And the man is fearful of his life. Major payback time is at hand. But they’re quiet. Very quiet. Why are they so quiet? Are they not interested or maybe just happy with their nusu mkate? Or do they know something we don’t? Like that he’s maybe a fraud? You see, we’ve become so accustomed to the AP’s being the big bad boys that when internal fights such as the one between Kaunya and his bosses break out, we automatically assume it’s because of the PEV. But where’s the evidence? Like I wrote, the Waki and Kriegler reports do not implicate everybody in the AP. Just the top echelons. But exactly who? The only things I’ve seen are badly written and researched newspaper articles quoting dubious “sources”. KNCHR have themselves admitted that he’s not known as a witness and if they did, wouldn’t they spirit him far away? Why leave him to dangle in the wind, as Githongo would say? This sucker could nail the main hombres. But they’re not interested? Why? So where did this issue that he is a big important witness come from? The shoddy journalism. Horth,
Forget about "shoddy journalism". Here you are being an outright apologist for state terrorism. That is your right. We too have ours. The citizens of the republic have a right not to be killed and/or terrorized by state agents. The world saw in live pictures and video clips security agents, APs, GSU, regular police shooting Kenyans at will. Women were raped and their bodies vandalized by state security agents. I suppose all that was done to protect Kenyans. Why am I not amused?
But I think we will wait for Ocampo to answer your so called questions.
Good luck my friend.
adongoAdongo, That's uncalled for, really. I have asked before, if Kaunya can be upfront that he knows the people who were trailing him, why would he at the same time deny that his disappearance had to do with the political threats he had reported? Why should an alternative version of the story coming from third parties be so credible that analyzing it must lead to taking names? We have a paradox here, and it is beneath us to use labels to silence those who ask questions. Why call people names when they point at gaping holes in a story? Ocampo is a story on its own standing. An allegation that anything is related to Ocampo must be examined for its own merits. For what do we want to suspend reason this time?
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emkei
New Member
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Post by emkei on Mar 26, 2010 5:32:34 GMT 3
Adongo,
That's uncalled for, really. I have asked before, if Kaunya can be upfront that he knows the people who were trailing him, why would he at the same time deny that his disappearance had to do with the political threats he had reported? Why should an alternative version of the story coming from third parties be so credible that analyzing it must lead to taking names?
We have a paradox here, and it is beneath us to use labels to silence those who ask questions. Why call people names when they point at gaping holes in a story?
Ocampo is a story on its own standing. An allegation that anything is related to Ocampo must be examined for its own merits. For what do we want to suspend reason this time? Mank,Unfortunately with adongo and his ilk, you are either with them or outright apologist for state terrorism...duh!! reminds me of Bush jnr. Some parties want their followers (words of nereah) to follow a certain belief or line of thinking kama kondoo and to them if you have independent reasoning, you are a defector. Thats why you will see everyone sucking at Miguna's daily whins and rants without questioning. They now want you to swallow this shoddy work of journalism, bait, hook, line, sinker, & boat bila maswali yoyote. Well, some of us have luckily been educated, socialized and conditioned to think for ourselves. We are as expected apologists for state terrorism... ;D ;D
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Post by Horth on Mar 26, 2010 10:01:32 GMT 3
tnk,
How was the connection made between Kaunya's death threats and the PEV? Has Kaunya himself said it? The newspapers reported it. Where did they get the connection? If it was a business deal gone sour, we don't know that, right? And the AP hit squad? Where did we get the information their actions were related to the PEV?
If that information was withheld by either kaunya, the bounty hunters, the press or police as you say, then under what basis can we sit here and conclude it's related to the PEV? The information we need to make an informed decision is just not available. Isn’t it? If he does get killed, we still won’t know why. We can guess, that’s all, but not pass it off as the truth.
Granted, the press might not have all the information as you say. But don't you know it's extremely dangerous to produce incomplete information in our fragile country? Case example; KACC leaked an incomplete report regarding the cemetery scandal. In the court of (mostly the PNU side) public opinion, Mudavadi was 150% guilty. You went ballistic, if I recall correctly. Why? Did the report not meet (y)our threshold? How was the standard/threshold of credibility set? Could someone else have done better in their place? In this specific case, we still don’t know what sort of information has been withheld by any of the actors and the money is still missing. Why didn’t reasonable people err on the side of caution because, if Mudavadi was lying, over a quarter of a billion shillings was stolen from us and he might have eaten some? Same thing, different day.
In the Mudavadi case, the report was leaked for political reasons. Here, you yourself admit the threat could be for myriad reasons, but you don’t know. It could also be because of the guns in Narok. Or a girlfriend’s husband. The bottom line is: we don’t really know why he’s being threatened. Assuming Ocampo will take care of him is making an unjustified assumption.
Also not bashing you, but just showing you that making conclusions with half-baked and unreliable information is wrong, in whatever case. And please don't think, as Adongo probably does now, that I'm a flag waving supporter of state violence. I'm not, have never been, and will never be. I, like you, and all Kenyans of peace, want every single *censored* who was involved in the planning, organizing, and executing of PEV to be locked up for good.
Trust me, I am thinking this through. Note Enigma’s wise words; ” Mine are postulations at the moment and I am ready to revise them as evidence comes to light. In a country like Kenya, you should always be alert regardless of your party or persuasion”
As evidence comes to light. I stand by his words.
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Post by tnk on Mar 26, 2010 10:21:15 GMT 3
tnk,How was the connection made between Kaunya's death threats and the PEV? the author of the thread alluded to it, but did not state it, from there on everyone run with whatever story they prefered did they get the connection? If it was a business deal gone sour, this one is paraphrased from kamales input The information we need to make an informed decision is just not available. Isn’t it? If he does get killed, we still won’t know why. exactly and therefore my point is that the mans life is on the line first ensure his safety then go after the details - fyi i evaluate information and prefer to make no assumptions, but will however accomodate opinion. the only facts above are the man reported threats, and people asking after him were apprehended. ....Mudavadi case ..... You went ballistic, if I recall correctly. this is a good one, please open the thread and look for my ballistic input
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Post by Horth on Mar 26, 2010 10:33:05 GMT 3
....Mudavadi case ..... You went ballistic, if I recall correctly. this is a good one, please open the thread and look for my ballistic input Relax, I was writing metaphorically, not literally. Like I said before, it's good to have an informed discussion. We can conclude now?
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Post by tnk on Mar 26, 2010 10:51:00 GMT 3
Like I said before, it's good to have an informed discussion. hiyo ni kweli
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Post by phil on Jul 6, 2010 16:38:10 GMT 3
Kaunya is now in forced exile fearing for his life. He could probably be in an ICC safe house awaiting to be key witness in the PEV trials Ocampo pledged would be his christmas gift to IDPs and PEV vicitims. It is getting interesting by the day. Nairobi Star (Nairobi) Kenya: Former AP Boss Faces Sack After Vanishing
5 July 2010
Nairobi — GOVERNMENT is about to dismiss a key potential witness for the International Criminal Court.
It has written to Oku Kaunya to show cause why he should not be fired as Nyanza Deputy Provincial Commissioner.
In December 2007 he was the Deputy Commandant of the Administration Police and Commandant of the AP Training College in Embakasi. He had originally been scheduled to take over from AP Commandant Kinuthia Mbugua in 2008.
It has been alleged that the Administration Police was partly responsible for the mayhem that followed the December 2007 elections.
Kaunya left Kenya in April this year and has not returned. It has been rumoured that he will be a key witness for ICC prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo.
Government has taken Kaunya's absence from work as desertion from duty which, according to the Civil Service regulations, is punishable by summary dismissal.
Sources in the Office of the President, to whom the Provincial Administration answers, told the Star that the letter was written in mid-June and sent through the Post Office.
Internal Security assistant minister Orwa Ojodeh confirmed yesterday that Kaunya had deserted duty and clarified that any communication sent to him was in line with government policy.
"If government officers desert duty as he did, then they have to give an explanation," said Ojodeh.
The minister however said he could not confirm whether government had formally written Kaunya.
After receiving death threats from unknown people, Kaunya slipped out of Kenya in April claiming he needed medical treatment for a kidney problem. His whereabouts remain unknown but he is believed to be in Europe.
He may turn out to be a key witness should the International Criminal Court try the perpetrators of the post-election violence.
Kaunya headed the AP Training College which, according to the Waki Report, was a central link in the disruption of the December 2007 election.
The Waki Report said 1,600 officers were sent to the college for "special training" so they could act as election agents for the PNU.
"All officers deployed were dressed in plainclothes, easily identified as they were not from the local community and travelled in large groups by more than 30 chartered buses," the report said.
"In addition, they received Sh21,000 each for their duties. The entire exercise was called off after some officers were killed and many more injured by citizens," the Waki Report concluded.
Investigators from the office of ICC prosecutor Ocampo have been in Kenya and they are expected to finalise their investigations in October before Ocampo can ask for the ICC to issue arrest warrants for the key suspects.
As many as 20 witnesses whose testimony is considered crucial have been placed under protection. Several have been flown out of Kenya while others are being protected in safe houses in Kenya.
Yesterday Kaunya's wife Millicent said the government was aware of her husband's continued stay abroad and that she had not received any communication about his employment status.
"I have not heard anything so far but he (Kaunya) is out and the government knows why," said the wife without revealing further details.
Ajaa Olubayi, Kaunya's lawyer, said he last spoke with his client two months ago.
"I haven't spoken with him for quite some time and I would not be in a position to say whether he has been asked to explain his absence from work," said Ajaa
In April Kaunya's wife said her husband had been feeling unwell and travelled to Germany for treatment from where he was to proceed to see their daughter in the USA.
In January 2004, while he was the Uasin Gishu DC, Kaunya called for the abolition of the Administration Police and the Provincial Administration.
He was supporting those delegates to the National Constitution Conference who wanted the Provincial Administration removed from the Draft Constitution that was finally defeated in the 2005 referendum.
Kaunya's comments were surprising to the AP command, especially Commandant Kinuthia Mbugua who had waged a spirited battle to have the force retained.
In 2007 Kaunya was promoted to head the Administration Police Training College, a post that put him second only to Mbugua in the AP chain of command.
However in June 2008 Mbugua interdicted Kaunya for putting on the rank insignia of the AP Commandant, apparently in preparation for the departure of Mbugua.
He eventually returned to his post in December 2008 but that did not end his tribulations.
Seemingly to ensure he did not testify to the Waki Commission in early 2009, Kaunya was sent for an impromptu "holiday" in Thailand.
When he returned, he was given a scholarship to the Karen-based National Defence College from which he graduated last December.
Copyright © 2010 Nairobi Star. All rights reserved. Distributed by AllAfrica Global Media (allAfrica.com). AllAfrica - All the Time
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Post by politicalmaniac on Jul 7, 2010 13:05:03 GMT 3
I dont know why whistle blowers arent celebrated, even in the west they are derided and hunted.
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Post by enigma on Jul 8, 2010 1:30:46 GMT 3
I dont know why whistle blowers arent celebrated, even in the west they are derided and hunted. This particular whistle blower cannot be celebrated. The police force is as it was pre December 2007. Its like an infected onion. Peel away the top layer and a more virulent form of the pathogen kicks in. Iteere and co are under instruction to shield ALI, michuki and Commander (thief) in Chief
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Post by kamalet on Apr 26, 2016 23:20:47 GMT 3
....and the guy is back from exile and holds a party. He tells us that he was never an ICC witness as some characters formerly of Jukwaa argued and called us names for. Seems like publicity seeking through the Star has not ended - but he is now a low value asset no one is interested in!
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