|
|
Post by maina on Apr 11, 2006 1:34:33 GMT 3
Job,
I humbly accept your criticism! But let’s face it, this business you have of attempting to preach that everyone is free to live the way they want in the name of pluralism is wrong, especially when you associate it with democracy. That’s just rude because you know that that is simple how you create a social crisis.
Kenya is a religious nation. For some reason, you and Oloo seem to think it is secular, because there is “no state religion”. I think that is a underhanded way of “legitimizing” pluralism! It also shows that you do not believe in anything but everything. That's what my criticism is about, so please address the real issues here and feel free to also paste from google.com, wikipedia.org, et cetera if I don't get it! I hope you can understand this!
Also, you are of course free to criticize my posts in any way as you wish.............. This is not about whether I copied and pasted from wikipedia.org, et cetera. I initiated this thread because of the very fact that we as Kenyans will have to deal with religion and politics in the near future. If you cannot see that, then I do not know how else to explain it to you. Halafu, with regards to Ravi, I have personally attended lectures and yes, I use a lot of his works to drive my points home. Besides, I did not study Philosophy enough to warrant me to me considered a philosopher. Actually, I am just intrigued by your arguments and the way you arrange them. It would be wrong for me to even begin trying to air my intellectualistic views on cyberspace where you do not even know me! That’s just weak!
Why is it that there are soooo many views and ideas being “dumped” on Kenya as though they are valid in Kenya? Don’t we have absolutes in Kenya? Or is that it is only “religious conservatives” like myself who have absolutes on the mere fact of enforcing a moral law? Is it really fair to surmise that introducing an idea with a religious connection to it to social debate in Kenya “may only create further division in the country,..towards levels similar to that experienced in countries such as Nigeria.” Isn’t it true that there is more today chaos in Nigeria because of the antagonism of the late Sani Abacha with respect to Christians? Surely, shouldn’t these things be discussed?
About Musyoka, I say that he is blessed and entitled to the presidency on the singular fact that he is a man of faith! That might explain why you haven’t heard anything sinister about him. We need to address this issue collectively in the country because upende usipende, you and I and everybody else in Kenya will be discussing it come 2007! It is already gaining ground in many parts of the country because Kenyans now know that it is the only characteristic they can rely on with respect to profiling and backing a presidential dreamer. It demonstrates that the presidential dreamer believes in something! That’s all!
Maina
-unedited-
|
|
|
|
Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 11, 2006 12:14:44 GMT 3
sometimes one looks rather nifty in borrowed clothes, wowing everybody in sight.
what becomes amusing is when one insists that the borrowed clothes are their own.
does anyone recall those embarassing stories of a lady accosting a former "friend" at a neighbourhood party/dance and ripping off a trendy rinda with a loud announcement to all and sundry:
NIRUDISHIE NGUO!!
about two years ago, over at the NATION FORUM i unmasked a notorious hydra headed demon poster who used to lift articles verbatim from the internet and pass them on as his own to project himself as a towering braniac academic of no mean standing.
for me the realization that this made in kenya would be nobel laureate was nothing but a pretentious intellectual thief occasioned near tears when i contemplated on the depth of low esteem and self-loath that would propel such a sorry waif/cyberurchin to pretend to be who they could never be.
for what?
to make an impression?
try that on other people, not kenyans who have seen it all and have a living and breathing nobel laureate to underscore that point.
be yourself. it is much simpler.
let me retreat to temporary lurkdom.
oo
nbi
|
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 11, 2006 17:04:24 GMT 3
sometimes one looks rather nifty in borrowed clothes, wowing everybody in sight. what becomes amusing is when one insists that the borrowed clothes are their own. does anyone recall those embarassing stories of a lady accosting a former "friend" at a neighbourhood party/dance and ripping off a trendy rinda with a loud announcement to all and sundry: NIRUDISHIE NGUO!!about two years ago, over at the NATION FORUM i unmasked a notorious hydra headed demon poster who used to lift articles verbatim from the internet and pass them on as his own to project himself as a towering braniac academic of no mean standing. for me the realization that this made in kenya would be nobel laureate was nothing but a pretentious intellectual thief occasioned near tears when i contemplated on the depth of low esteem and self-loath that would propel such a sorry waif/cyberurchin to pretend to be who they could never be. for what? to make an impression? try that on other people, not kenyans who have seen it all and have a living and breathing nobel laureate to underscore that point. be yourself. it is much simpler. let me retreat to temporary lurkdom. oo
nbiOloo, I always look forward to constructive criticism! "Nirudishie nguo" huh! Very funny! Anyways, asante! Now, could we please get back to the meat of this thread? Could we kindly address the imminent impact of religious concepts and interpretations on the politics of Kenya? I honestly think faith, just like tribalism, will be a crucial issue in deciding who to vote for in the onrushing elections. Just ask William Ruto or Najib Balala! Everyone knows that Ruto is Moi's urchin picked to propel his (Moi's) tribalist comportment in the famous Divide-to-rule, yet he carries the Rift Valley banner. Waswahilis will back Balala not because he is from their "tribe" but singularly because of his faith! Quite frankly, faith in politics is quite a prolific yet indiscernible unifier! Just look at world politics today including right here in America, and now Canada; faith plays a major part in politics! Maina -unedited- |
|
|
|
Post by kipsang on Apr 11, 2006 17:36:36 GMT 3
"You see in the search for meaning and reason, there are three (3) tests any System/Idea (be it a worldview, logic, reasoning, appraisal, et cetera) must submit itself to:" Maina P.S. Kipsang, Ravi is the only person I know in this world who defends the Christian faith from a philosophical perspective. I think he is awesome! -unedited- Maina ..Yes Dr. Ravi, is flawless and original, it's unfortunate you only know him as the only "awesome" apologist, I suggest that you find and study more for a more balanced approach. Thanks for being candid enough to accept that the the source of your good arguments were from www.rzim.orgFrom my simple exploration of Christian philosophers, I have found their brilliance from their down to earth approach when discussing moral issues and society. I am a Christian not because of the great philosophical arguments of such great preachers, but because of simplicity of the Gospel i.e in explaining the reality of sin, suffering and evil, -and as I have said in another thread -by the true message of hope and redemption that Jesus brought as the greatest philosopher. This is something that is missing in the modern church especially in America, no wonder some fulani's go easy labeling Christians as snobs or born again ones as nuts which is not true. |
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 11, 2006 17:55:52 GMT 3
"You see in the search for meaning and reason, there are three (3) tests any System/Idea (be it a worldview, logic, reasoning, appraisal, et cetera) must submit itself to:" Maina P.S. Kipsang, Ravi is the only person I know in this world who defends the Christian faith from a philosophical perspective. I think he is awesome! -unedited- Maina ..Yes Dr. Ravi, is flawless and original, it's unfortunate you only know him as the only "awesome" apologist, I suggest that you find and study more for a more balanced approach. Thanks for being candid enough to accept that the the source of your good arguments were from www.rzim.orgFrom my simple exploration of Christian philosophers, I have found their brilliance from their down to earth approach when discussing moral issues and society. I am a Christian not because of the great philosophical arguments of such great preachers, but because of simplicity of the Gospel i.e in explaining the reality of sin, suffering and evil, -and as I have said in another thread -by the true message of hope and redemption that Jesus brought as the greatest philosopher. This is something that is missing in the modern church especially in America, no wonder some fulani's go easy labeling Christians as snobs or born again ones as nuts which is not true. Kipsang, Thank you for the kind words! I am also a Christian and quite frankly I will not lie because I can guarantee you that it will not go well with me! It bothers me when some people attempt to debunk the Christian notion of faith in a person's life! Being a Christian is a character trait! It is basically how a Christian describes himself and thus should be described. Have you noticed that the western ideas of "socialism" and relativism have settled in Kenya in very disguised manner, and their proponents are proselytizing pluralism surreptiously while they hide behind the big word; "DEMOCRACY"? Do you know that that is basically how you encourage fundamentalism? Just look at Nietzsche; didn't this happen to him? What about the no good Osama and his moralistic and self-assertive role as the conservator of Islam? Weren't their evil minds put to work by the proponents of pluralism? If you doubt me, just take a look at Oloo's posting of Fidel! Ati democracy! Ever wondered why Fidel is lone ranger? Halfu, just try and figure in why and how such a posting is translated from a Kenyan perspective? Unaona this manenos? I think we need to do a thorough self-assessment of ourselves as human beings and really consider what it is that we are really after! Only then can we begin to talk of reason and meaning within the context of reality as we know it. That should of course, also apply to Kenya and particularly right now when nobody can envision any legitimate presidential candidate. Maina -unedited- |
|
emmo
New Member
Posts: 30 
|
Post by emmo on Apr 11, 2006 19:14:47 GMT 3
Maina,
What exactly makes you think William Ruto is carrying Moi's torch? What makes you think he has Moi's blessing even? Has the opposite not proved to be true? Is it not you now who is guilty of ukabila?
Explain again your point on Fidel. Are you claiming he is isolated because he is not Christian? Dude, you hardly ever make sense!
|
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 11, 2006 20:29:41 GMT 3
Maina, What exactly makes you think William Ruto is carrying Moi's torch? What makes you think he has Moi's blessing even? Has the opposite not proved to be true? Is it not you now who is guilty of ukabila? Explain again your point on Fidel. Are you claiming he is isolated because he is not Christian? Dude, you hardly ever make sense! How do you begin to classify my ideas as ukabila? You mean you do not know that William Ruto rides as a born-again Christian, and some argue that that is why he carries the Rift Valley banner? You better start believing that faith and tribalism will have a major part to play in the elections. Why do think there is a imminent rift between Kalonzo and Raila? Of Fidel, isn't he a self-confessed and self-assetive existentialist? The problem with Fidel is that he believes in socialism so much so that he considers faith as insignificant and not relevant to life! Besides, two worldviews can never blend together. That results in a social crisis like what we have in Cuba. Maina -unedited- |
|
emmo
New Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by emmo on Apr 11, 2006 20:44:08 GMT 3
Yes, Maina I see your point about his faith and his ethnic background , but it is Uhuru and not William Ruto who is the Moi proxy. look at your previous post.
Is Fidel an existensialist? Is Cuba in Social Crisis? Even UNDP reports belie this. It is one of the most socially cohesive countries anywhere on the planet.
|
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 12, 2006 3:10:21 GMT 3
Yes, Maina I see your point about his faith and his ethnic background , but it is Uhuru and not William Ruto who is the Moi proxy. look at your previous post. Is Fidel an existensialist? Is Cuba in Social Crisis? Even UNDP reports belie this. It is one of the most socially cohesive countries anywhere on the planet. By indicating or intimating that Ruto was Nyayo's "proxy", I was referring to Y2K. I know that he is no longer in Nyayo's good books although he espouses to. Secondly, Fidel is an existentialist. There's no question about that. He believes in God, does not question creation, but just lives for the now. Isn't that what socialism is all about? Isn't that why reports show a severe social crisis in Cuba yet socialism worshippers believe he is a Saint? Maina -unedited- |
|
emmo
New Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by emmo on Apr 12, 2006 3:25:31 GMT 3
No, Mzee. In fact it is difficult to put Social Crisis and Cuba in the same sentence. Cuba has one of the world's most socially cohesive societies. Read from this link here.
It is remarkable that in spite of the economic shocks of the early 1990s, Cuba continues to rank among the top 5 per cent of 125 developing countries on indicators of social development such as life expectancy, infant and maternal mortalities, adult literacy, primary and secondary school enrolments and many others. In fact, according to these social indicators, Cuba stood in 1996 among the top fifth of all countries — including the most highly developed. Health indicators especially sensitive to food shortages or lack of imported medicines, such as the incidence of low birth weights and of underweight expectant mothers, as well as the incidence of infectious diseases and symptoms of vitamin deficiencies, deteriorated. But most social indicators have continued to improve during the 1990s, although at a slower pace than during the previous four decades.
How has this been possible? A general answer is that commitment to meeting basic needs has not wavered. Improvements in education and health, as well as the virtual elimination of absolute poverty, were among the proudest achievements of the Cuban revolution. These social gains also helped provide legitimacy and widespread popular support for the revolutionary state. Therefore public expenditure on health, education and other social programmes was maintained near pre-crisis levels, even after total state expenditures had been cut by over 15 per cent. Social expenditures increased from less than one third of GDP in the late 1980s to about two fifths of GDP in the 1990s. This was supplemented by a great deal of popular participation at local levels in the administration and delivery of social services. At the same time the government carried out several institutional reforms during the crisis, including the conversion of most state farms into smaller co-operative units, the reintroduction of farmers' markets, legalization of foreign currency holdings among Cubans, encouragement of many foreign investments and the expansion of self-employment.
|
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 12, 2006 5:37:46 GMT 3
Emmo,
You're right here. I was misled by the CIA goons who have this awfully problematic consuetude of changing critical ABCs on their website, especially when these ABCs are about Cuba, Iraq, Iran, N. Korea, et cetera.
Lakini I read the UN reports on Cuba. Now I understand why Fidel has so many Kenyan darlings. For instance, he managed a GDP per capita [(PPP) Cuba/USA as per the CIA goons as noted int their lousy website] of $3,300, amid all 'em embargos. No doubt, that's pretty impressive with a country that is four times smaller than Kenya and with half of Kenya's population.
The socialism works from the "administrative" perspective. But why is there social unrest that is cause by Socialism's emblematic injustices, with so many people? Could it be that communism is rife? And then there's the issue of the political mob of a party...............the many communist desperados hiding behind Catholicsm........such hypocrisy? Cuba = socialist state? Nah, only through mind power!
Maina
-unedited-
|
|
|
|
Post by kichwambaya on Apr 12, 2006 16:31:28 GMT 3
Maina,
The attempt by christian fundamentalists to cast christians as victims in countries like Kenya and the USA where they are the majority always amazes me. I guese it fits in well with the politics of victimhood and sympathy votes.
Voters will vote for any particular candidate for all sorts of reasons. Some will definately base their vote on their faith. Some will be based on tribe, political party affiliation, and a million of other reasons. Kalonzo, has to figure which image benefits him the most. If he believes his christianity is going to get him the most votes then he should go ahead and use it. If his opponents believe that they can cut him to size by attacking that image, then I think they have a right to do so and will. On the other hand some candidates may rely more on their tribal affiliation to get votes. Those candidates must also be ready to be attacked. A women candidate may decide to use gender to get the women's vote, some plan to use their political ideology and so on and so forth. In conclusion, Kalonzo can go ahead and use his faith to get votes but he must be ready for the attacks like anybody else.
|
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 12, 2006 16:53:13 GMT 3
Maina, The attempt by christian fundamentalists to cast christians as victims in countries like Kenya and the USA where they are the majority always amazes me. I guese it fits in well with the politics of victimhood and sympathy votes. Voters will vote for any particular candidate for all sorts of reasons. Some will definately base their vote on their faith. Some will be based on tribe, political party affiliation, and a million of other reasons. Kalonzo, has to figure which image benefits him the most. If he believes his christianity is going to get him the most votes then he should go ahead and use it. If his opponents believe that they can cut him to size by attacking that image, then I think they have a right to do so and will. On the other hand some candidates may rely more on their tribal affiliation to get votes. Those candidates must also be ready to be attacked. A women candidate may decide to use gender to get the women's vote, some plan to use their political ideology and so on and so forth. In conclusion, Kalonzo can go ahead and use his faith to get votes but he must be ready for the attacks like anybody else. The problem with using faith for a booster is that it will not work unless it is HONEST. If say Kalonzo was no Christian, then he cannot just wake up one morning, examine his odds and then decide to run for president on the grounds that he is a Chrisitian. No, that will not work singularly because being a Christian is character trait! It is not something you dream up and conceptualize as a relaity! It is who s/he is in his person. In the same way, if Kenyans maintain their religious complexion so much so that is becomes their primary standard for voting in a presidential dreamer, then Raila cannot all of a sudden begin going to church and then preach the gospel during his rallies; it would look incredulous! Actually, that would bring out the real trickster! You're right in that whenever an idea that is connected to the religious worldview is introduced to social debate, it is not received well by the socialist extremists. That's why you'll keep hearing their lousy ululations of abortion, using post modernist terms like "secular state" while referring to Kenya, questioning the consanguinity between religion and politics and so forth, while they hide behind their favourite adopted idiosyncracy - DEMOCRACY! Quite frankly, these extremists make Kenya literally look like a "small America in Africa"! I am for self-preservation. Maina -unedited- |
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 15, 2006 7:41:04 GMT 3
Folks, There is a certain individuality in our country such that every Kenyan feels that s/he has to brazenly express themselves and make their viewpoints known; an attitude that is surpassingly stylish during times of national solicitude like the onrushing elections. That said................... There is a certain keenness with our people such that every one of them feels that s/he has to use the most enterprising and presumptious modus while expressing these opinions, the current fashion delineating grandiloquent rage. That said...................... There is a certain impulsion by a notorious creed of Kenyans to establish Western ideas of pluralism by intuitively using the media to proselytize as well as indoctrinate customary Kenyans with these malapropos and antipodal philosophies. You think I'm kiddin'? Below are some of the cartoons I receive in my Inbox daily, through my subcription with www.candorville.com. Check 'em out!  ![]() www.comics.com/wash/candorville/archive/images/candorville2091597060411.gif[/img]    Now listen carefully! While many political debates pass with little direct religious allusion, the immigration fight has been steeped in religious language for months. Sen. Hillary Clinton criticized the immigration bill passed by the U.S. House as "certainly not in keeping with my understanding of the Scripture, because this bill would literally criminalize the Good Samaritan and probably even Jesus himself." The New York Times likewise ran an editorial titled, "The Gospel vs. H.R. 4437." Meanwhile, Roman Catholic Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles has become one of the most prominent figures in the immigration debate.
Some of the most prominent political groups have been completely silent on the subject. Not all, though: World Relief, the World Evangelical Alliance, the National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference, and others have urged specific immigration reforms. (More on that later this week at the Christianity Today site.)
It's not an easy issue, we at Christianity Today admitted in a recent editorial. The immigration debate is about real people, the editorial said, but "the usual array of arguments marshaled to support or hinder immigration tends toward the abstract. The arguments often obscure rather than clarify." Charity, hospitality, and human worth are important concepts to remember in this debate, but even Bible verses on "image of God," "welcoming the stranger," and caring for "the least of these" aren't entirely applicable in the legislative debate, and don't come with policy prescriptions. Nor do Christian admonitions to respect the rule of law, CT managing editor Mark Galli wrote in a follow-up to the editorial.
We'll continue to monitor and report on the immigration debate over the coming days and weeks.
No, we haven't forgotten that it's Holy Week. Our site has more resources than ever for solid Christian reflections on Christ's death and resurrection. Among our latest items: Rick Warren in Leadership on what difference Easter makes and Ginny Mooney Withrow in Momsense on her toddler's discovery of the cross. As for this year's Holy Week wet blanket, we have ample coverage of the Gospel of Judas, too, including the latest news. In the coming days we'll have Eugene Peterson on living the Resurrection and Mark Dever on the real meaning of Christ's death. And for those who resent the proliferation of bunnies at this time of year, be sure to check out Agnieszka Tennant's Christianity Today column, "A Velveteen Apologetic."
Ted Olsen
News Director/Online Managing Editor
ChristianityToday.com Now here is my beef: Get my drift now? Of all the things to joke around with, this gagster went insane with Jesus Christ. Not too long ago, some Danish, Dutch and Italian adventurers like him went insane with the Islamic prophet Muhammad. But no, no, no, it wasn't enough; he couldn't help but touch Jesus! What's even more loutish and witless is that this East African Standard's caught on and worldly character of a gagster is doing this through a distinguished national scandal sheet, in a conservative and religious nation and over the EASTER season which is the most significant phase of Jesus' life on earth!!!! One therefore wonders why in the world the East African Standard remonstrate about their premises and property being vandalized by the no good government, and while those memories are still fresh with us, they prudently and audaciously publish blasphemy and mock the Christian faith!!!! Wananchi, this class of cretinism must be marooned, otherwise we (Kenyans) will end up without any sense of meaning and reason in our society - FACT!!! Maina -unedited- |
|
|
|
Post by maina on Apr 15, 2006 20:14:36 GMT 3
Roughrider,
Do you think it is appropriate to abandon our self-preservation in Kenya and heed to western pluralism that is inferred to mean relativism of ethics; the same philosophies that do not work in the west? Secondly, among the presidential dreamers in Kenya saa hii, who do you think best advocates for self-preservation and why? Just curious!
Maina
-unedited-
|
|
