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Post by kamalet on Mar 18, 2011 18:46:14 GMT 3
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Post by mongobeti on Mar 18, 2011 18:56:52 GMT 3
Ochillo is not the problem here, the problem is the Minster of Energy Kiraitu Murungi setting up a Nuclear Energy Committee with Ochillo as chairman, and giving them Ksh 300 million! And he did with such fanfare.
If you ask me this is no more than a rip-off. You and I know Kenya is a long, long way from nuclear energy development. But you see 2012 is not too far and every politican is frantically looking for clever avenues to build an election war chest.
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Post by phil on Mar 18, 2011 19:10:02 GMT 3
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Post by mank on Mar 18, 2011 19:31:03 GMT 3
The world over there is not a country ready to go nuclear, even though many have gone nuclear. The crisis in Japan tells it all.
During tranquil times we would be made to believe that at a time like this modern science would unleash robots who would contain the radiation without the need of any of us mortals being exposed to the elements. The reality is different.
Japan just increased the maximum hours individuals can be exposed to radiation - not because of science, but because current regulations deprive Japan of the needed manpower for containing those reactors. That's how desperate things are, and that is in Japan - I used to hear about robots as salesmen over there.
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Post by b6k on Mar 18, 2011 20:14:07 GMT 3
Ok I missed the olympics hosting comment in 2003 but just how far back does this move to make us adopt nuclear power go, Phil? I know I've heard the rt hon PM mention this several times & it leaves me speechless. We are already making huge strides setting up what will be the largest wind farm in Africa, if not the world, up in Turkana. We could compliment that by further harnesing our God given geothermal reserves which we've only recently started using. To that we could even add a large scale solar panel farm somewhere in NEP where there is no shortage of sunlight. Why on earth do we need to go nuclear when we have barely tapped into these clean alternative energy solutions? KES 300m going into a pipe dream project like nuclear power is not just a waste of funds, it is irresponsible. Where do they propose to set it up? We have the Great Rift Valley splitting this country meaning we are in a highly seismic zone. Unlike the Japanese, we lack written records going beyond the mzungu's arrival but that doesn't mean there's never been serious quakes here that remain undocumented. The Rift wouldn't be there if there had been none. If we can't get the basics right (piped water to every home by 2000), then we should steer clear of complex technology like the nuclear option.
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Post by mzee on Mar 18, 2011 20:41:18 GMT 3
Kamale, You amaze me. Its your boy Karaitu who came up with the idea now you want to pin it on Ayacko. We will not let you get away with it. I wonder why you seem to be disoriented these days. Is it the ICC issue or what.
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 18, 2011 21:20:51 GMT 3
Mongobeti
It may have been started by Kiraitu as the minister, and that surely makes the miniter an imbecile. But when Ochillo too goes with the idiocy, he shows how equally idiotic his senses are.
I go with Kamale on this. Ayacko shows porridge brains in this subject. What he should have done was conseder the technical competences of kenya and better informed the minister: --before you go nuclear you have to re-organise your departments of physics, theoritical maths, and a whole range of laboratory technical stuffs, to create the intellectual infra structure. It might be useful to study Pakistan's and Iran's methodology in this respect. Wind and solar power [Germany is on the cutting edge of Photo Voltaic Cell technology [PVCs] and with a few hours of sunlight in the summer can inject, together with windpower farms, upto 20% additional electricity into the national grid. Kenya with 364@annum sundays would be a killer. Barring wind and geothermal.
So yes, we will go nuclear because of academic freedom in the future, but for now, please more realisable energy sources.
Folks like Phil, even when a glaring ODM idiot is exposed in all his infantile nuinsanceness, cannot see through the [gikuyu?] personality of Kamalet!
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Post by phil on Mar 18, 2011 22:04:03 GMT 3
Mongobeti It may have been started by Kiraitu as the minister, and that surely makes the miniter an imbecile. But when Ochillo too goes with the idiocy, he shows how equally idiotic his senses are. I go with Kamale on this. Ayacko shows porridge brains in this subject. What he should have done was conseder the technical competences of kenya and better informed the minister: --before you go nuclear you have to re-organise your departments of physics, theoritical maths, and a whole range of laboratory technical stuffs, to create the intellectual infra structure. It might be useful to study Pakistan's and Iran's methodology in this respect. Wind and solar power [Germany is on the cutting edge of Photo Voltaic Cell technology [PVCs] and with a few hours of sunlight in the summer can inject, together with windpower farms, upto 20% additional electricity into the national grid. Kenya with 364@annum sundays would be a killer. Barring wind and geothermal. So yes, we will go nuclear because of academic freedom in the future, but for now, please more realisable energy sources. Folks like Phil, even when a glaring ODM idiot is exposed in all his infantile nuinsanceness, cannot see through the [gikuyu?] personality of Kamalet! What you allude to in terms alternative renewable energy sources is already in gear for Kenya and actually (if am not wrong) Kenya boasts the largest wind energy farm in Africa located somewhere in Turkana...while KPLC has gone ahead and actually tendered for several solar power generating power stations. So yes, perhaps this Nuclear is too lofty for Kenya at the moment but I dont think it is idiotic to explore the possibility of implementing it here. There are countries with the expertise and they are willing to help, so why not? South Africa has nuclear power and you can see from this 2007 night time satellite image that unless Kenya takes practical steps towards increasing its generation capacity, then we are headed for disaster which could happen as soon as 2015!!! Do you see the lights in Egypt on the Nile, those lights are perhaps generated by water origininating from Kenya's highlands. The continent is literally dark, between Egypt and South Africa. Kenya's nuclear program could change that!? So whose idiotic now?
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Post by kamalet on Mar 18, 2011 22:34:57 GMT 3
Phil If you vile response was on the basis I had called your tribesmate an idiot, I am strugglign to apologise. He is an idiot not because he is Luo, but because he comes out as such. It would have not been any different if it was a kamba that came with such an idiotic idea. But as usual in your ignorance, you come rushing about why we should ape South Africa on nuclear energy. Perhaps you may not know but they actually do have 2 reactors that only contribute 5% of all the power needs of the country. For you assistance, I thought the following link would be educative enough first on why South Africa has not progress this energy platform for 27 years and instead invested in other forms of energy: www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf88.htmlAs you will read, even by 2030, South Africa does not expect this to contribute more than 15% of its needs. Now compare this. Kenya currently has a generating capacity of just over 1025 MW with a peak requirement of about 1003 MW (last time I checked). South Africa at the moment generates 40,500MW which is a huge amount of power. So go figure why Achillo is the idiot here....but I guess it is justification of the potential cash cow within the 300 million float available to him!
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Post by tnk on Mar 18, 2011 23:00:32 GMT 3
This matter did not start with Ochillo Ayako, please Kamale! Phil If you vile response was on the basis I had called your tribesmate an idiot where is the vile response ? it is unnecessary for jukwaa members to keep using foul language on each other. even on a matter such as this which only requires that we evaluate technical considerations, these do not have to be accompanied by patronising attitudes and tribal slurs. jeez even energy production concerns are tribalized lets keep it civil
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Post by enigma on Mar 18, 2011 23:07:31 GMT 3
Kenya is one of the few countries with a phenomenal capacity for renewable energy (Geo, Solar and Wind). If counties can home in on where their strengths lie, the green economy could be the next frontier in our quest to be a middle income state in the near future. What Kenya could do in the nuclear sphere is perhaps to invest in producing radio-isotopes for medical and other applications. That way we exploit the niche and with upcoming surges in cancer, the African Space program and the general research capacity that Africa is going to have to build, a micro industry with huge returns could thrive. But in terms of domestic energy, there are just too many challenges, what with a NEMA that takes bribes and fails to even do a site visit before granting EIA authorizations.
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Post by jakaswanga on Mar 18, 2011 23:31:21 GMT 3
In this thread I feel like sharing with Jukwaaists one of the most fascinating ideas I came across in the Congo. The Mighty Congo river does not have the same colonial water hungover politics like the Nile does. Remember in the 50s when Owen falls was built in Jinja, there was a secret treaty with Egypt limiting the water flow and thus the wattage!
In the DRC a project was being launched called the GRAND INGA. This would be the third Inga dam. Capacity 40,000 Megawatts. To give you an idea: Jinja [now Nabaale] is a paltry 180 MW generator, Kindaruma is a childish 40MW! So 40,000 MW is Industrial electricity for the whole of Africa, leaving another thousand MW to be exported to southern europe.
The south Africans are the driving force, followed by Botswana, Angola, Gabon and Cameroun. I was informed when the consortium was looking for investors KENYA DID NOT RESPOND! But Indian companies from various states united to invest.
NB: Enviromentalists are lobbying the world bank and IMF to refuse the additional loans. But latest news is project is going ahead.
Inga will be bigger than the just completed legendary chinese dam, 7 gorges, which is expected to rid China's 1 billion people of power shortages forever! China, with thousands of engineers and technicians unemployed after the completion of their super dam, are yearning to find them employment on the Inga project.
Maybe Ayacko should hurry to pick up the remaining Inga shares reserved for Africa, before Brazil buys them up! So if we gave Kabila his gold back, in 15 years time we get good elektro-rates.
But would the twin idiots Ayacko and Kiraitu even know of the existence of the river Congo?
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Post by mank on Mar 18, 2011 23:37:05 GMT 3
We have seen, the world is unsafe with nuclear power in Japan. So it is unsafe with nuclear power in US, UK, Germany, SA, France, etc. It would be a whole lot more unsafe with Kenya on the list. Our record and promise of managing anything so delicate is not good.
Just look at it - our politics we wreck, our education system we wreck, our anything ... and in litigating our record the misstep is not attributed to the person, but to the múgíkúyú, the jaluo etc. Management of nuclear risk is at the lowest level national - and we are not a nation.
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Post by madgf on Mar 19, 2011 6:43:55 GMT 3
it would be strategic for kenya to go nuclear, given it's proximity to somalia with uranium. they already began the process years ago. i guess they need to ensure for example if it's GE power plants like in Japan, it can withstand natural disasters. but given how stable the african continent is i don't anticipate much nuclear instability from natural disasters. the problem would be having enough money to run the plants and disposing nuclear waste material .
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Post by b6k on Mar 19, 2011 7:02:55 GMT 3
The twin idiots Ayacko & Kiraitu know exactly what they're doing. This is a case of ODM proposes & PNU disposes. Why would Ayacko sing Kiraitu's song if he wasn't pleased with the morsel that has been thrown his way? This white elephant is just another cover for both sides of the coin to eat. They know that their time is short until their next day of reckoning in August 2012 so they're making hay while the sun shines...together.
Mank you're spot on. If practically everything we touch turns to crap, why would we want to handle technology that is way over our heads? It's just another opportunity for a collosal feeding frenzy as kickbacks will be milked from the foreign companies/governments that will build the reactors. The rt hon PM, Kiraitu, Ayacko et al should drop this idea & adhere to the design principle Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).
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Post by b6k on Mar 19, 2011 18:28:34 GMT 3
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Post by madgf on Mar 20, 2011 4:28:21 GMT 3
two main reasons: it'll make electricity more affordable for more kenyans since coal is becoming more expensive with carbon tax, depletion etc. secondly, kenya has a regional responsibility to resolve the energy crisis. if kenya doesn't do it, tanzania or uganda will. plus i doubt a devastating earthquake will hit kenya soon.
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Post by madgf on Mar 20, 2011 4:57:32 GMT 3
b6k, this is political. renewable energy is a relatively new thing being explored in the West. scientists, researchers etc. are not interested in kenya or africa in general. this option from what i recall was exhausted and heavily considered to avoid nuclear but it wasn't feasible. so for practical purposes going nuclear is inevitable. better Kenya invests in that uranium than zimbabwe for instance. i hear they're pretty keen on going nuclear as well. unfortunately it's about geopolitical responsibility now.
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Post by mank on Mar 20, 2011 4:59:08 GMT 3
two main reasons: it'll make electricity more affordable for more kenyans since coal is becoming more expensive with carbon tax, depletion etc. secondly, kenya has a regional responsibility to resolve the energy crisis. if kenya doesn't do it, tanzania or uganda will. plus i doubt a devastating earthquake will hit kenya soon. This time it was a devastating earthquake. Next time it would be something else - even something as trivial as a wall cracking because someone did not construct it well enough, or some unbeknownst chemical reaction taking place. What we know is that one day with uncontained nuclear radiation is enough to make anyone forget any satisfaction a nuclear installation would have given till then.
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Post by madgf on Mar 20, 2011 5:14:39 GMT 3
Those plants in Japan were built in the 70s. Technology has improved since then. Kenya has plenty of sparse land without conjestion like Japan and elsewhere to build plants. On a global scale it doesn't make sense for Kenya to go nuclear but from a regional scale Kenya has a responsibility. We're not talking about tomorrow. These plants may come into existence in 10 years to who knows but with the direction the world is going at the moment, politically that is, Kenya can't ignore that responsibility.
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Post by mank on Mar 20, 2011 7:07:19 GMT 3
Those plants in Japan were built in the 70s. Technology has improved since then. Kenya has plenty of sparse land without conjestion like Japan and elsewhere to build plants. On a global scale it doesn't make sense for Kenya to go nuclear but from a regional scale Kenya has a responsibility. We're not talking about tomorrow. These plants may come into existence in 10 years to who knows but with the direction the world is going at the moment, politically that is, Kenya can't ignore that responsibility. Its all a matter of risk appetite and tolerance. I take many risks that I love, e.g. financial. But nuclear risk looks damn risk to me ... not just when Kenya is involved, although when Kenya is involved I do not consider it risk but suicide. I think you are telling yourself that we are perfectly in control now that we have new technology. I am sure when this Japanese technology was new the world was telling itself that Chenobyl was an outcome of old technology and would not happen with the new. What do we have now?
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Post by b6k on Mar 20, 2011 7:27:59 GMT 3
Madgf, & just where are the sparsely populated proposed sites? Turns out other than the KE coast (there go our sandy beaches), the other potential site is in Lake Victoria. Hmmm...could the latter have something to do with the rt hon PM & Ayacko push for nuclear power in the newly decentralized Kenya? www.majimbokenya.com/home/2009/08/18/kenyan-nuclear-power-plans-forge-ahead/It's all well & good to pre-empt our neighbours in new technology but is it viable? Consider the number of scientists required to run the plant. These are people who could've been medical doctors. We are still at that stage of (under)development where our Dr to patient ratio is quite pathetic. Shouldn't we prioritize improving that ratio instead? www.scidev.net/En/features/is-africa-ready-for-safe-nuclear-power--1.htmlLet's do the simple things first before we put the cart before the horse by dabbling with dangerous & dirty technology. Improve our hydro, build up geothermal capacity, promote renewable energy & nurture a culture of maintenance before we go nuclear. Once the Turkana wind project is in the grid we could even market KE as the world's first "green" powered country. As far as the threat of earthquakes, not even the Japanese with all their tech savy ways could have predicted a 9.0 in their midst. These things happen on our living planet whether due to plate tectonics or volcanic activity. We do have dormant volcanos in KE. You may recall when Ol Doinyo Lengai in neighbouring TZ erupted briefly in '07, the relatively minor tremors from that episode damaged buildings in Nairobi CBD. Why tempt fate?
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Post by madgf on Mar 20, 2011 13:38:31 GMT 3
Mank I do agree but like all costly endeavours I'm sure they'll continue to have risk assessors on the ground. With all big developments there will be risks. But as I said before, with the political direction the world is heading at the moment, Kenya has little choice at the moment but at least look like they're interested in investing in nuclear technology.
b6k, you dream too much. Kenya owns less than 7%? of Lake Victoria as per EAC agreement. That lake has already been exhausted with Museveni's ambitious hydraulic projects pissing the Egyptians off. Kenya is not a suburban sprawl full of earthquakes like Japan. It could afford to invest in clean nuclear technology or semi-nuclear technology away from congestion and adequately contained.
Ok, medical doctors and scientists are two completely different professions. The good thing about nuclear technology is that it'll create jobs for scientists so they won't have to brain drain out of the country to Germany or elsewhere. Great science requires investing in nuclear technology even if it's just to study it.
It's all part of a political game where Kenya has a regional responsibility.
But I respect how you think and the direction of "green" is sexy. It's a beautiful notion and something even myself have been thinking about for years but the problem is, green technology at the core of development is more expensive to maintain and protect, green culture is yet to even be embraced in Kenya. So something substantial, that being nuclear technology is needed to address the current energy crisis. But green technology will of course develop along side to hopefully take over completely oneday much like what’s happening in the West.
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Post by mank on Mar 21, 2011 1:03:57 GMT 3
Madgf,
I am with B6K on this one. I think it would be a much better idea to maximize our utilization of other abundantly available renewable sources of energy before reaching out for the radioactive stuff. We have hardly made a scratch on solar energy. Our physicists could do a lot with that. Similarly it is believed that ample non-renewable supplies such as natural gas wait to be discovered and tapped. That's another area our scientists could get themselves busy.
You say that Africa is not prone to earthquakes, but that could be cognitive failure due to incomplete records. Take this fact for example: scientists are forecasting a huge quake in the western coast of US, with some saying that a mother of all quakes is even overdue. They are going by data that reveal patterns from centuries past punctuated by lapse in our times - the lapse is what suggests over-dueness. How much such data do we have for Africa? Could it be that we have not had any studies on tremor patterns, and we are therefore naively convinced of invincibility?
After all we do not need lots of earthquakes - one good earthquake affecting a reactor is enough. After all, not necessarily an earthquake - the world is full of what we do not know.
Everything considered, your argument would be acceptable if we had exploited all other areas where we have the potential to shine. We have not, and we stink on some very basic ones.
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Post by b6k on Mar 21, 2011 8:03:05 GMT 3
Madgf, 7% of the second largest fresh water lake on the planet gives you a huge amount of coastline to serve as a potential sites....congested or otherwise.
The Great Rift Valley stretches from Syria, through Ethiopia & Kenya before it terminates in Mozambique. It is dotted all the way with active & dormant volcanos. Kenya is being split in two by the rift. It may not appear as iminent as our PNU vs ODM political split but it packs a lot more punch. It may take a million years to achieve its goal but rest assured it will. We are sitting on a seismic time-bomb & just because no significant event has occurred in living memory, it doesn't mean one won't happen again. Early mankind left the cradle of civilization for a reason.
The cost of building a 1,000 MW nuclear plant is anything between KES 2 to 4 billion. If we poured 1 billion shillings to the Turkana wind project (they are using a very small portion of the 66,000 hectares they have leased to intall the 365 turbines) & another billion to set up several solar panel farms in various counties, we would be a world leader in alternative energy power generation. As a nation, we could even get into the lucrative carbon trading game. All this without touching nuclear power.
I happened to be living in Western Europe when the Chernobyl reactor went into meltdown. Although we were thousands of miles away we were directly affected by the radioactive cloud. Milk & vegetables were contaminated & a ban on their consumption was imposed for weeks. For those who lived close to Chernobyl (Belarus region) at least 200,000 have since died with over 1,000,000 facing health complications & eventual death.
Then there is the problem of disposing of the nuclear waste. Where would Kenya send the spent material. Keep in mind if someone got their hands on it they could make "dirty bombs" & terrorize the globe. With mortuary attendants selling body parts for God knows what, is it inconceivable for Kenyan nuclear technicians to sell the radioactive waste to terrorists? This is Africa (TIA).
Even if Ayako & Kiraitu are thinking of job creation, they need to ask themselves what price they are willing to have us pay for it.
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