WHY TOP COP WAS MURDERED- HE WAS OCAMPO'S WITNESS?

[gemagema]

Former Assistant Commissioner of Police Bernard Kimeli may have been killed because of the testimony and evidence he gave to the Waki Commission probing the 2007 post election violence, the Star has established.

Police as well as sources associated with the Waki Commission confirmed that Kimeli appeared before the commission and some of the testimony he presented to the commission in camera, formed part of the evidence that the International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use in his prosecution of the seven suspects he has identified as being responsible for the post election violence.

The ICC will in September decide whether Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta, Eldoret North MP William Ruto, the Head of the Public Service Francis Muthaura, former Police Commissioner Hussein Ali, Tinderet MP Henry Kosgey and radio presenter Joshua Arap Sang' should stand trial for crimes against humanity. “Kimeli appeared before the commission in camera and in his private capacity. He gave us very useful information that helped us in deciding the final list of people who should be held greatly responsible for the post election violence. So vital was his information that we had to make special arrangements for him to come and see us,” said a former commissioner to the Waki Commission.

Kimeli was also a close friend of former Deputy Commandant of the Administration Police Oku Kaunya who was forced into exile following threats to his life and who is reported to be a possible prosecution witness during the ICC trials.

During the 2008 post election violence, Kimeli was the boss of the Kenya Police College, Kiganjo, where it is alleged meetings were held to discuss how to respond to the violence.

Kimeli, was murdered by unknown people on Tuesday at his house in Muguga Greens estate in Westlands. His killers entered his house, stabbed him several times and left the well secured estate where some of Kenya's top civil servants live. His gun was found lying on his side. Neighbours said they did not hear any commotion.

Kimeli's next door neighbour is deputy Police Commissioner Francis Okonya. “ It is a mystery, how strangers could have gained entry into Kimeli's homestead without the knowledge of the sentries guarding Okonya's home which is next door,” said a senior CID officer.

Kimeli's widow is a senior police officer in Machakos County. Kimeli was sharing their Westlands home with their son who was living at the adjacent servants' quarters.

Yesterday, sources at CID headquarters said Kimeli's killers may have been known to him as there were no signs of forced entry into the house. They said the house was not ransacked but believe that the killers took away documents linked to the testimony he presented to the Waki Commission. They also say that a supply contract he had been given by a government department, which was the subject of a dispute, were also taken.

The police sources said Kimeli had kept classified information which he did not surrender when he decided to take early retirement in March 2008.

“He collected some of the information from his own trusted officers in the field in the period leading to, during elections and after President Kibaki was declared the winner. The information included the selective manner used by some partisan police commands to deal with election violence in Rift Valley," the police sources said. "Kimeli had been ordered by some people in the government to provide undercover and uniformed police officers from the police college to do some dirty work against some ethnic communities which he refused,” said a close relative who claimed to know the existence of the classified information.

By virtue of his position as the boss of the police academy, Kimeli could authorise trainees in various ranks and categories under his command to be assigned duties of quelling the riots. However, officially, such trainees are not supposed to be involved in such tasks until they graduate from the college.

The sources said that orders were issued to Kimeli to release "the idle policemen" at the police academy to assist deal with the violence. The decision about which of the trainees was going to take part in quelling the violence was done in a selective manner because it favoured one ethnic group. “There are forces in Kenya who are fearful that the officer’s evidence could have been dangerous to some of the Ocampo Six. These people would not have wanted Kimeli to testify or provide any documentary and photographic evidence to the ICC or even a local tribunal if one is established,” said another senior officer who worked for the Waki Commission.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

Among those fearing for their lives are policemen, whom human rights activists say were, involved in operations carried out in different parts of the country. “They too have been identified and are now living in fear. They have been told that if they are say anything incriminating any of the six they will be killed,” said an official within the human rights network.

SOURCE: www.nairobistar.com/national/national/22726-why-top-cop-was-murdered

I hope the ICC Judges are following this closely.

[einstein]

Here we go! And the suspects have up to September to eliminate potential witnesses!! Wow, let's embrace for strange murders in the coming months. September is too far away, potential witnesses should immediately flee the country and seek asylum in Europe or contact Ocampo for assistance. I know Ocampo's resources are also limited, but may be he can help.

God, this is damn scary!!

[b6k]

I hope the ICC judges are still reading KE newspapers. If a top cop could be eliminated so easily, what about an ordinary witness? Ekaterina needs to know she is dealing with rogue thugs & allow Ocampo to protect his witnesses.

[merlin]

May 1, 2011 22:18:12 GMT 3 gemagema said:

Former Assistant Commissioner of Police Bernard Kimeli may have been killed because of the testimony and evidence he gave to the Waki Commission probing the 2007 post election violence, the Star has established.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

SOURCE: www.nairobistar.com/national/national/22726-why-top-cop-was-murdered

I hope the ICC Judges are following this closely.

Gemagema

According to the article in the Nairobi Star Bernard Kimeli gave testimony before the Waki Commission and some of his testimony forms part of the evidence that the International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Nowhere in the article is a statement that Bernard Kimeli is one of the witnesses Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

Five possible Ocampo witnesses

Reporters do not know. The Ocampo witnesses are not yet identified so please stick to reality to keep-up the integrity of JUKWAA.

Maybe you could correct the heading of this thread?

[destiny]

This type of murder was predicted right here and sadly it didn't take long to unfold. As soon as they are done with witnesses, they will start going for each other with deadly consequences just like in the Mafia movies. Hell..................... these guys are also Mafia!

[gachquota]

Gema ....iz right Okampo or Ocambo witnesses have no chance in Kenya they will all be screwed up.

[adongo23456]

May 2, 2011 11:48:47 GMT 3 @merlin said:

May 1, 2011 22:18:12 GMT 3 gemagema said:

Former Assistant Commissioner of Police Bernard Kimeli may have been killed because of the testimony and evidence he gave to the Waki Commission probing the 2007 post election violence, the Star has established.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

SOURCE: www.nairobistar.com/national/national/22726-why-top-cop-was-murdered

I hope the ICC Judges are following this closely.

Gemagema

According to the article in the Nairobi Star Bernard Kimeli gave testimony before the Waki Commission and some of his testimony forms part of the evidence that the International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Nowhere in the article is a statement that Bernard Kimeli is one of the witnesses Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

Five possible Ocampo witnesses

Reporters do not know. The Ocampo witnesses are not yet identified so please stick to reality to keep-up the integrity of JUKWAA.

Maybe you could correct the heading of this thread?

So it is OK for the guy to be murdered after all according to you he is not yet identified as an Ocampo Witness! How many others do you think should be murdered and untold to "keep-up the integrity of JUKWAA".

Let's work with some numbers.

[merlin]

May 2, 2011 15:45:45 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

May 2, 2011 11:48:47 GMT 3 @merlin said:

Gemagema

According to the article in the Nairobi Star Bernard Kimeli gave testimony before the Waki Commission and some of his testimony forms part of the evidence that the International Criminal Court Chief Prosecutor Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Nowhere in the article is a statement that Bernard Kimeli is one of the witnesses Luise Moreno-Ocampo intends to use.

Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.

Five possible Ocampo witnesses

Reporters do not know. The Ocampo witnesses are not yet identified so please stick to reality to keep-up the integrity of JUKWAA.

Maybe you could correct the heading of this thread?

So it is OK for the guy to be murdered after all according to you he is not yet identified as an Ocampo Witness! How many others do you think should be murdered and untold to "keep-up the integrity of JUKWAA".

Let's work with some numbers.

Adongo,

Your logical conclusion is wrong. Someone gets murdered and we do not know the reason and who did it or ordered the murder (execution).

This does not makes the murder right (or legitimize it). Murder is murder and is unacceptable in our society.

Now was the murdered person (Bernard Kimeli) an Ocampo witness? According to available information we do not know. Maybe yes / maybe no.

How can someone write with such certainty “HE WAS OCAMPO’S WITNESS”?
This maybe is a juicy header for an article though it is not factual, just gossip or at least misinformation. Not only is it written on a gossiping blog spot, no here on JUKWAA where we try to keep the integrity of information at a high level.

Your logic therefore is wrong to conclude “So it is OK for the guy to be murdered after all according to you he is not yet identified as an Ocampo Witness!. Or rephrased in Spade language; So you find it OK that Bernard Kimeli is murdered as he is not an Ocampo witness?

My answer is; no this is not OK - however I understand your message.

[politicalmaniac]

May 2, 2011 17:44:25 GMT 3 @merlin said:

Now was the murdered person (Bernard Kimeli) an Ocampo witness? According to available information we do not know. Maybe yes / maybe no.

How can someone write with such certainty “HE WAS OCAMPO’S WITNESS”?
This maybe is a juicy header for an article though it is not factual, just gossip or at least misinformation. Not only is it written on a gossiping blog spot, no here on JUKWAA where we try to keep the integrity of information at a high level.

How do you know its just "juicy gossip", or "not factual" or a just "some misinformation" ?

Why does the supposition that this deceased Ex Senior Policeman was an ICC witness irk you so?

Its more likely than not given he is former post, that he knew a thing or two about how kina muthaura and ali planned the PEV repsonse of killing ODM supporters.

[merlin]

May 2, 2011 18:11:06 GMT 3 politicalmaniac said:

How do you know its just "juicy gossip", or "not factual" or a just "some misinformation" ?

Why does the supposition that this deceased Ex Senior Policeman was an ICC witness irk you so?

Its more likely than not given he is former post, that he knew a thing or two about how kina muthaura and ali planned the PEV repsonse of killing ODM supporters.

PM,

Why does the supposition that this deceased Ex Senior Policeman was an ICC witness irk you so?

Wrong interpretation! What irks is that someone writes with such certainty “HE WAS OCAMPO’S WITNESS” while there is no proof.

There is a simple answer to my irked feeling which is called integrity.

[tnk]

merlin

i think i understand the gist of your argument, but jukwaa's integrity in a manner of speaking is the collective intelligence i.e gemagema has made his assertion in opening this thread of a link between the death of the senior police officer with ICC process. he has provided what he believes is the information to back this up. the fact that you dont agree (at least not fully) and have stated your reasons why is what drives jukwaa. the reader is thus seized of the same event from two diverse perspectives.

if you recall in the past we have had some other guys conjure up accusations against various other leaders and these were shot down with facts.

back to this story, in present day kenya, for crimes that touch on incumbents in authority, there can never be any way that investigations can ever link back to such people. therefore requiring proof is in itself a death warrant. the proof you seek is hard to find, hard to be published by the local media. so they beat about the bush.

gemagema is taking the bull by the horns so to speak. somewhere along the way the truth may surface in bits and pieces, if gemagema is wrong we shall gladly hose the man, in the meantime i would grant him the benefit of doubt

in the meantime look at the thread by mwalimumkuu questioning the integrity of the speaker, recall that previously he dominated a thread where his whipping "boy" was ngilu. but after parliament made their report and the announcement by PLO that never came, ...... as prof saitoti often said ..... read my lips ........... zzzziiiipppp !!

[merlin]

May 2, 2011 20:52:01 GMT 3 tnk said:

merlin

i think i understand the gist of your argument, but jukwaa's integrity in a manner of speaking is the collective intelligence i.e gemagema has made his assertion in opening this thread of a link between the death of the senior police officer with ICC process. he has provided what he believes is the information to back this up. the fact that you dont agree (at least not fully) and have stated your reasons why is what drives jukwaa. the reader is thus seized of the same event from two diverse perspectives.

if you recall in the past we have had some other guys conjure up accusations against various other leaders and these were shot down with facts.

back to this story, in present day kenya, for crimes that touch on incumbents in authority, there can never be any way that investigations can ever link back to such people. therefore requiring proof is in itself a death warrant. the proof you seek is hard to find, hard to be published by the local media. so they beat about the bush.

gemagema is taking the bull by the horns so to speak. somewhere along the way the truth may surface in bits and pieces, if gemagema is wrong we shall gladly hose the man, in the meantime i would grant him the benefit of doubt

in the meantime look at the thread by mwalimumkuu questioning the integrity of the speaker, recall that previously he dominated a thread where his whipping "boy" was ngilu. but after parliament made their report and the announcement by PLO that never came, ...... as prof saitoti often said ..... read my lips ........... zzzziiiipppp !!

Tnk,

i think i understand the gist of your argument, but jukwaa's integrity in a manner of speaking is the collective intelligence i.e gemagema has made his assertion in opening this thread of a link between the death of the senior police officer with ICC process. he has provided what he believes is the information to back this up. the fact that you dont agree (at least not fully) and have stated your reasons why is what drives jukwaa. the reader is thus seized of the same event from two diverse perspectives.

I understand gemagema searching for a relation between the murder of Bernard Kimeli and the ICC case against one or more of the 6 suspects of crimes against humanity. There are several connections to be made about position of Bernard Kimeli, motive for the killing, time etc. though these connections are speculative.
One thing that will soon be established is the identity of the witnesses Ocampo will use to support his case. We do not know this yet though gemagema pretend to know with such certainty “HE WAS OCAMPO’S WITNESS”.

Bluntly said this is a lie, none of us know with certainty who these witnesses will be. Why not stay within the realm of reality and write that you have strong indications that Bernard Kimeli could be a one of the witnesses Ocampo will use in his case against one or more of the 6 suspects?

This leaves the search for a relation between the murder of Bernard Kimeli and the ICC case open inviting others to contribute and could make the probable relation stronger. The certainty “HE WAS OCAMPO’S WITNESS” will stop others to search for proof of the relation especially for the superficial readers.

Of importance is that we discover reality and although we can approach the same event from two different perspectives, there can be only one reality.

back to this story, in present day kenya, for crimes that touch on incumbents in authority, there can never be any way that investigations can ever link back to such people. therefore requiring proof is in itself a death warrant. the proof you seek is hard to find, hard to be published by the local media. so they beat about the bush.
I know as we all know justice is corrupted and knowledge about proof of crimes by incumbents in authority can be lethal. If gemagema had any information establishing the connection between Bernard Kimeli and the ICC case, the CID would jump on him.

gemagema is taking the bull by the horns so to speak. somewhere along the way the truth may surface in bits and pieces, if gemagema is wrong we shall gladly hose the man, in the meantime i would grant him the benefit of doubt.
Is gemagema taking the bull by the horns or is he setting us on the wrong footing? Has he really any information about who Ocampo’s witnesses are or is he just corrupting information in the public area with his own undefined perception?

Gemagema is the only one who can answer this question about integrity.

Integrity what is lacking in our political and judicial systems. Kenyans are expressing themselves very clearly we need integrity in our systems. So why do we in JUKWAA compromise integrity?
What makes us different from the rot we see around us? Do we really understand what integrity means?

[cheshirecat]

There is an old man in my village who drank some changaa and was later found dead in a ditch the following day.

Police and other sources indicate he was an Ocampo witness and Wangeci, the local changaa brewer might have been paid by the Ocampo six to eliminate bathoromeo, the name of the old man.

The sources (very reliable btw..they predicted the Wambui, mbugua wedding six months before the two met) indicate that bathoromeo was taking a piss in the toilet when he overhead the Ocampo six plotting murder and mayhem in the cubicle next.

[kamalet]

Was Kimeli an Ocampo witness?

Ocampo has already told the PTC who his witness are and is fighting to hide them away from the defence because of safety concerns. He has given a number (I think 10) for his case but has not named anyone of them.

So how is it possible that there are people in the media and some in Jukwaa who can with the certainty we are being shown know that Kimeli indeed was a witness for Ocampo merely because he appeared before the Waki Commission?

At least let us try some logic when backing up media stories!

[gachquota]

To be honest there are folks who only dream abt kukanyaga some pple down.Kamale will never accept anything unless Kibaki says so wat a life.

[adongo23456]

May 3, 2011 8:40:57 GMT 3 kamalet said:

Was Kimeli an Ocampo witness?

Ocampo has already told the PTC who his witness are and is fighting to hide them away from the defence because of safety concerns. He has given a number (I think 10) for his case but has not named anyone of them.

So how is it possible that there are people in the media and some in Jukwaa who can with the certainty we are being shown know that Kimeli indeed was a witness for Ocampo merely because he appeared before the Waki Commission?

At least let us try some logic when backing up media stories!

Kamale,

At least let's get the facts straight. ICC investigation(s) is a continuous process until the case is over. Accordingly nobody knows the full list of witnesses or possible witnesses. In fact the suspects have a better sense of who the witnesses are or are likely to be because they(the suspects) fully know what they were involved in. That is why Ocampo keeps saying that any threats, direct or indirect to witnesses can not be tolerated.

Secondly, Ocampo indicated he will use 20 witnesses for the confirmation hearing. That does not mean those are the only witnesses. It only means Ocampo thinks the 20 are sufficient for the confirmation hearing stage of the process.

In terms of Mr. Kimeli, it should concern everybody that a Kenyan ex-cop who certainly was involved in helping to unravel the PEV has been assassinated obviously by people who are up to no good. Whether Mr. Kimeli was going to be a witness or not, we know he did give evidence to the Waki team in camera which tells you and me that it was sensitive info.

In terms of the ICC case the Kimeli assassination is a very serious matter because it can be interpreted as a message to any other possible witness that their lives are in danger. I am sure Ocampo is fully observing the situation.

If they can kill a senior ex-cop right in his own house, what else do you think they are capable of doing?

[gemagema]

Merlin,
You may call what I wrote an inference or an opinion.

Let us start with why one may call it an inference

I begin with a question. We have been told by the Obama administration that Osama Bin Laden is dead. Where is the proof? Yet all Media has gone gaga, and they seem to believing that Osama is dead, even without evidence.

Better still, If I started another thread and not wrote that Raila will win the 2012 elections...I will definitely have no proof, more so because the event is futuristic. However, depending on some inductive reasoning, I can draw inferences that state that Yes, Raila will win the 2012 elections

Now, to the article itself.

Through careful examination of the Nairobi Star article above, one finds some facts and indications that give credence to my hypothesis. Now read the statements below very clearly....This is piece from the article.

“Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission[/color].[/i]”

Now the author himself, and not me, introduces a link between Kimeli’s murder and Ocampo suspects. I didn’t do that, I only critically analysed the articled. The author writes that the other 5 witnesses are not at risk from the suspects and their associates (am sure we all know which suspects he means). In the last sentence, the author links Kimeli’s murder to Ocampo’s witnesses. He writes that while the 5 were not as important as Kimeli to Waki commission, nevertheless they are being bribed (re-stated) not to testify further and to retract their testimony from Waki’s commission. So yes, Kimeli, like the other five, was Waki’s witness. And if you are reading and comprehending well, the Nairobi star author suggests that the Waki witnesses and their testimonies are gonna be used by Ocampo too. Otherwise, why else would he link the two. In conclusion, the article author actually assumes, hence links the murder of Kimeli to Ocampo 6. That is even more risky business - but maybe he has his sources. Remember, the Media Bill?....the government wanted journalist to reveal their sources. Just like yourself, the government wanted to know where the journalist were getting their information, which enabled them make serious political allegations such as the conclusionary statement in this article.
Merlin, one cannot always seek evidence, proof, unnecessarily. Sometimes revelations of proof/evidence/witness can lead to certain exposures that may be destructive to a case. Same reason Ocampo, though in vain, has been trying to argue with Judge Trendilova (sp??). He says revealing his witnesses would put them at risk.


By the way, I could take you through the whole article, and reading it bit by bit, you will realise that my deductions were merely an import from the article, only obviously stated.So cut me some slack

Now, let us consider the second option which may suit you well – an Opinion

My suggesting that Kimeli was Ocampo’s witness may have been an opinion i.e a judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty but rather reached from reading the grey areas of the article from Nairobi star. Mark You! Opinions are allowed...in a democratic setting and more so on political discussion boards like Jukwaa.

However, if you have issues with the Thread Heading, and the rest of Jukwaa feel the heading compromises the integrity of Jukwaa, then I could rewrite the heading as

WHY TOP COP WAS MURDERED - HE WAS OCAMPO'S WITNESS? (Then it is a question)

[gemagema]

MP wants Govt to explain officer's killing

Imenti Central MP Gitobu Imanyara wants the government to explain to Parliament if the killing of a former senior police officer last week was related to the ongoing International Criminal Court Kenyan process May 3, 2011. FILE

The government has been tasked to explain to Parliament if the killing of a former senior police officer last week was related to the ongoing International Criminal Court Kenyan process.

Internal Security assistant minister Orwa Ojodeh undertook to give a ministerial statement on Tuesday next week explaining the circumstances that led to Mr Bernard Kimeli’s death.

Last week, Mr Kimeli a former Kiganjo Police Training College commandant was murdered at his home in Westlands after watching a football match. Nothing was stolen from the house.

He was found with stab wounds to the chest in Muguga Green estate, Westlands.

He retired in 2008 as deputy commissioner of police 1, just a rank below Kenya’s police boss.

Preliminary investigations showed he stayed up late the previous night watching football on TV with his son.

The son is said to have left the main house after the match and was asleep at adjacent quarters when the killing occurred.

He found out his father was dead after dawn and informed the police.

Criminal Investigations Director Ndegwa Muhoro was among senior officers who visited the scene of crime.

The body was found sprawled on the floor and detectives who attended the scene said there was an indication of struggle between Mr Kimeli and those who attacked him.

“This is a murder incident. The retired senior officer was watching football. He was alone in the house at the moment. There was no break in,” said Mr Muhoro.

Yesterday, Imenti Central MP Gitobu Imanyara sought a ministerial statement to unravel the killing.

Mr Imanyara wants to know whether Mr Kimeli was a witness at the Waki Commission or not.

The Waki Commission looked into the causes of the chaos that left at least 1,133 people dead and 650,000 others displaced and its report is key in evidence ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno-Ocampo wants to use in his case.

Six individuals have since made their initial appearance at The Hague.

Finance minister Uhuru Kenyatta, head of Public Service Francis Muthaura, Postmaster General Hussein Ali, MPs William Ruto, Henry Kosgey and radio presenter Joshua arap Sang will head back to ICC in September for the confirmation of charges hearing.

Mr Moreno-Ocampo has in the past raised issue over safety of witnesses following alleged threats issued against them.

Mr Imanyara sought to know whether the slain policeman gave “very” confidential evidence to the Waki team and if he had been listed as ICC witness.

The vocal MP also wants the government to confirm whether or not Mr Kimeli was to leave the country before he was murdered.

He regretted that many people have been killed in unclear circumstances yet the police only promised to investigate but nothing happened.

Mr Imanyara said as ICC prepares to hear the cases against the Ocampo Six there is need of government assurance for witnesses’ safety.

Source: www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/-/1064/1155618/-/item/0/-/chq79iz/-/index.html

[merlin]

May 3, 2011 17:44:01 GMT 3 gemagema said:

Merlin,
You may call what I wrote an inference or an opinion.


However, if you have issues with the Thread Heading, and the rest of Jukwaa feel the heading compromises the integrity of Jukwaa, then I could rewrite the heading as

WHY TOP COP WAS MURDERED - HE WAS OCAMPO'S WITNESS? (Then it is a question)

Gemagema

After all is written and read; why don’t you?

[merlin]

May 3, 2011 17:44:01 GMT 3 gemagema said:

Merlin,
You may call what I wrote an inference or an opinion.

Let us start with why one may call it an inference

Gemagema

You may call what I wrote an inference or an opinion.

Let us start with why one may call it an inference
If you define your contribution as an inference or opinion and made this known then you are well within the realm of integrity.

I begin with a question. We have been told by the Obama administration that Osama Bin Laden is dead. Where is the proof? Yet all Media has gone gaga, and they seem to believing that Osama is dead, even without evidence.
Obama and the USA administration have gathered sufficient credit points to be credible. Furthermore Obama will face great consequences if the statement is incorrect and with Osama Bin Laden alive this will come out into the open.

(however there are rumours that the first landing on the moon was never in reality televised though a recorded version from a test side in the USA)

The credibility of the star reporter is sufficient for some and insufficient for others.

Better still, If I started another thread and not wrote that Raila will win the 2012 elections...I will definitely have no proof, more so because the event is futuristic. However, depending on some inductive reasoning, I can draw inferences that state that Yes, Raila will win the 2012 elections
We can write anything about the future as the future is not reality though a perception in our mind and this is clear to us all.

Now, to the article itself.

Through careful examination of the Nairobi Star article above, one finds some facts and indications that give credence to my hypothesis. Now read the statements below very clearly....This is piece from the article.

“Kimeli's murder raises concerns about the safety of five possible Ocampo witnesses who have yet to be taken out of the country. The five, considered important but not at risk as they were below the radar of some of the suspects and their associates, have been receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings not to testify and retract their testimony to the Waki commission.”
We will differ in the credibility we lend to this statement and the author. If the author knows the identity of five Ocampo witnesses and is able to communicate with them then I get very concerned about their safety. The author is well known and will quickly be visited by people who like to erase any traces of evidence – I presume.
The author plays down the credibility of his statement by entering Possible Ocampo witnesses.

If they are Ocampo’s witnesses - and receiving death threats as well as being offered millions of shillings - then Ocampo has proof the suspects (or their associates) are interfering with witnesses and warrants for arrest will be issued.

Now the author himself, and not me, introduces a link between Kimeli’s murder and Ocampo suspects. I didn’t do that, I only critically analysed the articled.
Many people write and disseminate all sorts of statements. It is you who interpreted these statements and write your opinion about it here in JUKWAA. You are therefore responsible to verify (judge) the credibility of the information.

Merlin, one cannot always seek evidence, proof, unnecessarily. Sometimes revelations of proof/evidence/witness can lead to certain exposures that may be destructive to a case. Same reason Ocampo, though in vain, has been trying to argue with Judge Trendilova (sp??). He says revealing his witnesses would put them at risk.
I understand your concern though if risk is high you could disseminate the information to an appropriate audience to achieve useful action. Writing in the public area is dangeres though useless or you must have other objectives such as making profit on selling newspapers or many other objectives.

Now, let us consider the second option which may suit you well – an Opinion

My suggesting that Kimeli was Ocampo’s witness may have been an opinion i.e a judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty but rather reached from reading the grey areas of the article from Nairobi star. Mark You! Opinions are allowed...in a democratic setting and more so on political discussion boards like Jukwaa.
Opinions are allowed so are any other expressions. Not only in JUKWAA though everywhere as there is freedom of speech. However there are consequences connected to what you write. You can earn credibility points or lose them and be considered a person talking nonsense.

[mwalimumkuu]

May 2, 2011 20:52:01 GMT 3 tnk said:

merlin

i think i understand the gist of your argument, but jukwaa's integrity in a manner of speaking is the collective intelligence i.e gemagema has made his assertion in opening this thread of a link between the death of the senior police officer with ICC process. he has provided what he believes is the information to back this up. the fact that you dont agree (at least not fully) and have stated your reasons why is what drives jukwaa. the reader is thus seized of the same event from two diverse perspectives.

if you recall in the past we have had some other guys conjure up accusations against various other leaders and these were shot down with facts.

back to this story, in present day kenya, for crimes that touch on incumbents in authority, there can never be any way that investigations can ever link back to such people. therefore requiring proof is in itself a death warrant. the proof you seek is hard to find, hard to be published by the local media. so they beat about the bush.

gemagema is taking the bull by the horns so to speak. somewhere along the way the truth may surface in bits and pieces, if gemagema is wrong we shall gladly hose the man, in the meantime i would grant him the benefit of doubt

in the meantime look at the thread by mwalimumkuu questioning the integrity of the speaker, recall that previously he dominated a thread where his whipping "boy" was ngilu. but after parliament made their report and the announcement by PLO that never came, ...... as prof saitoti often said ..... read my lips ........... zzzziiiipppp !!

tnk,

This is where we go wrong. We tend to define issues as vices and/or virtues based whom the actions are attributed to. My beef with Marende on the other thread has been very clearly defined and up to now, he is yet to show that he is seriously involved in dealing with that issue as expected and as his position demands. The man has a record which tells me that he is up to some mischief.

As regards Ngilu, it is rather an open secret that her case was dispensed with primarily for political expediency. It was basically a case of scratching each other’s back. Did that change my conviction that Ngilu stole from me? Of course not.

As one of us (I think Mank if am not mistaken) argued here before, actions taken by people in positions superior to our, however diametrically different from our view do not necessarily mean that they are right. There is enough information out there to prove that Ngilu drunk our water. I am sure wherever she is, she still looks over her shoulder, because she knows how close a shave that was. That is why she never joined Jukwaa in celebrating her clearance.

[kamalet]

May 3, 2011 16:46:25 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

Kamale,

At least let's get the facts straight. ICC investigation(s) is a continuous process until the case is over. Accordingly nobody knows the full list of witnesses or possible witnesses. In fact the suspects have a better sense of who the witnesses are or are likely to be because they(the suspects) fully know what they were involved in. That is why Ocampo keeps saying that any threats, direct or indirect to witnesses can not be tolerated.

Secondly, Ocampo indicated he will use 20 witnesses for the confirmation hearing. That does not mean those are the only witnesses. It only means Ocampo thinks the 20 are sufficient for the confirmation hearing stage of the process.

In terms of Mr. Kimeli, it should concern everybody that a Kenyan ex-cop who certainly was involved in helping to unravel the PEV has been assassinated obviously by people who are up to no good. Whether Mr. Kimeli was going to be a witness or not, we know he did give evidence to the Waki team in camera which tells you and me that it was sensitive info.

In terms of the ICC case the Kimeli assassination is a very serious matter because it can be interpreted as a message to any other possible witness that their lives are in danger. I am sure Ocampo is fully observing the situation.

If they can kill a senior ex-cop right in his own house, what else do you think they are capable of doing?

Adongo

You know you are stretching the truth here. How are the investigations continuing whilst you and I know that Ocampo will have to present his evidence to the defence prior to the confirmation hearings?

But even assuming you are correct, then Kimeli cannot be such a high value witness if his evidence is not already with the OTP as to warrant his being murdered as he was. I expect you will be jumping at the new allegation by Gitobu that Kimeli was due to visit the Hague in the coming week!

Part of our problem as Kenyans is how quick we are to infer incidents such as these to make a case for anything.

[kipfirimbi]

May 4, 2011 9:01:34 GMT 3 kamalet said:

May 3, 2011 16:46:25 GMT 3 adongo23456 said:

Kamale,

At least let's get the facts straight. ICC investigation(s) is a continuous process until the case is over. Accordingly nobody knows the full list of witnesses or possible witnesses. In fact the suspects have a better sense of who the witnesses are or are likely to be because they(the suspects) fully know what they were involved in. That is why Ocampo keeps saying that any threats, direct or indirect to witnesses can not be tolerated.

Secondly, Ocampo indicated he will use 20 witnesses for the confirmation hearing. That does not mean those are the only witnesses. It only means Ocampo thinks the 20 are sufficient for the confirmation hearing stage of the process.

In terms of Mr. Kimeli, it should concern everybody that a Kenyan ex-cop who certainly was involved in helping to unravel the PEV has been assassinated obviously by people who are up to no good. Whether Mr. Kimeli was going to be a witness or not, we know he did give evidence to the Waki team in camera which tells you and me that it was sensitive info.

In terms of the ICC case the Kimeli assassination is a very serious matter because it can be interpreted as a message to any other possible witness that their lives are in danger. I am sure Ocampo is fully observing the situation.

If they can kill a senior ex-cop right in his own house, what else do you think they are capable of doing?

Adongo

You know you are stretching the truth here. How are the investigations continuing whilst you and I know that Ocampo will have to present his evidence to the defence prior to the confirmation hearings?

But even assuming you are correct, then Kimeli cannot be such a high value witness if his evidence is not already with the OTP as to warrant his being murdered as he was. I expect you will be jumping at the new allegation by Gitobu that Kimeli was due to visit the Hague in the coming week!

Part of our problem as Kenyans is how quick we are to infer incidents such as these to make a case for anything.

Either Ocampo's witnesses are still in Kenyan and therefore in danger or Ocampo has been pulling wool over the judges eyes. which is which are his witnesses safe overseas or are they still in kenya. There shouldnt be an in between. The presecutor had already done his investigation and laid down the charges? I think these are guys being felled unfortunately even though Ogampo has no use for them. Come on folks!