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Post by Luol Deng on May 17, 2011 21:57:35 GMT 3
Well, here we go again. First of all, the article is a preamble to a book and they are not giving much away in terms of actual content. One can however clearly see that is generally a pro-choice, pro gay rights book. I have read similar books before and the content is generally similar. The only punchline I can find in it are:
First things first. I have worked all over the continent and I will be the first person to agree that there is nothing homogenous about Africa. From the south to the north there is a lot more variety than we can find in Europe for instance. We never refer to a European culture or anything of the sort, so, trying to define an 'African' culture would be impossible. My positions on social issues are also well known. I am conservative on social issues.
On to the issue of sexuality. Although there are differences in many African cultures, I am yet to find a single African culture that endorses the Homosexual lifestyle. I know that there will be several people that will come here telling me of how the Kalenjin, Kikuyu, Nuer, etc allowed women to marry other women. There are such examples all over Africa, and it is the name of such relationships that some 'scholars' have taken to be the definition of a 'homosexual' in African languages (almost all languages I know of don't have such a definition. These relationships existed and still exist. But what was the cultural context. In most cases the 'marriage' was between an elderly woman (in most cases a widow) and a younger woman. In such relationships, the younger woman's role was that of a helper and it was not of the romantic/sexual variety that the scholars would make one believe.
The preamble was ambiguous on the definition of sexuality and therefore we can't engage on meaningful debate before we define what sexuality is. The gay community in Kenya has taken different definitions of sexuality depending on which one serves their purposes. At one point in time they say that whatever they do in their bedrooms should not be publicly scrutinised (I totally agree). But the definition based on that comment will reduce homosexuality to acts of sexual intercourse. The high school example Job was alluding to earlier is similar. In high school there were reported cases of sodomy and the like. These acts that are largely carried out in private are nobody's business. It has never been, and it never will be. That is why although I am against homosexuality, I will never endorse the Ugandan style legislation on homosexuality.
The other definition that the gay community and their sympathisers like to use is a more nuanced and complex one. That it is more than sex, it is about companionship, love, affection, etc. In other words, attributes that are manifested publicly. And here comes the paradox, while most of the campaigns for gay rights are based on "what we do in private is our business", the rights that they seek are for the public manifestation of homosexuality.
As I said in some other post. If it is all about what the gay do in private, that is their own business. They already can do as they please. There are several gay clubs in Nairobi and Mtwapa. If their lifestyle offends one (as it offends me), one has the option of avoiding these clubs. But when it comes to bringing that lifestyle 'on our faces' in public, then we would be compelled to protect our public space.
It seems like this thread will be around for a while, so, I will continue with my points at the appropriate time.
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Post by tnk on May 17, 2011 22:05:25 GMT 3
kathure and others perhaps one of you could elaborate further, i have a question on this
does this definition of sexuality particularly in the african context also extend itself to the cultural practice of male circumcision and its sister practice the abhorrent FGM?
noting that the ceremonies preceding and post these rites significantly impact how the african communities still practising the traditional methods regard and perceive the individuals status (or sexuality) before and after the rites. and perhaps this is the greatest indicator why its so difficult to end FGM in some communities, yet perhaps understanding this sexuality may pave the way for greater FGM intervention strategy.
==
am not even sure what the writer has in the book and whether it talks about sexual orientation or what. i too found the intro a little too long and have not had time to go through it, maybe later.
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Post by merlin on May 17, 2011 23:26:02 GMT 3
VoluminousI agree the reader is comprehensive though only state what they will address in the book. The Reader does not give any definitions, conclusions or researched data. However if someone has problems with the voluminous Reader (3500 words on 318 lines) then probably it will be a waste of time and money to buy the book and read it. It is still possible to contribute opinions of perceived knowledge on this board without looking beyond the familiar world of our own. Kathurekebaara and luoldengIt addresses many issues related to sexuality and thus also homosexuality but I cannot perceive the book is focused on this issue. The Reader point out the following: It is worth reiterating the point made earlier: as researchers and theorists of sexualities we must always take great care not to fall into the homogenising trap. One of the salient points made by various authors in this volume is to avoid homogenising and essentialising people’s sexualities (whether Africans, Europeans, Asians, Middle Eastern or Hispanics).
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Post by mank on May 18, 2011 0:39:57 GMT 3
Voluminous I agree the reader is comprehensive though only state what they will address in the book. The Reader does not give any definitions, conclusions or researched data. However if someone has problems with the voluminous Reader (3500 words on 318 lines) then probably it will be a waste of time and money to buy the book and read it.
Certainly! I would actually not take the book for free as I know it would only consume my shelf space. [/blockquote][/quote] The concepts "heterosexuality" and "homosexuality" seem rather easy to grasp, but the reader is making the definition of "sexuality" sound like brain surgery. When the reader seems to be talking about sexuality at all (i.e. when she is not doing what RR appropriately calls "blah blah"), it seems she is talking about many shades of other "sexualities" in between. Pragmatically it is hard, if not impossible, to grasp more than one sexuality in between those extremes - I think anyone who is homosexually curious (whether rarely or all the time), is somewhat homosexual. There can be no measure of how much "heterosexual". Similarly there can be no measure of how much "homosexual". Any measures of how much a person is when s/he is of either extreme is perhaps a measure of sexual drive (does sexual drive belong in the domain of sexuality?) By extension therefore there can be no shades of "somewhat homosexual" - instead there can be intensities of "how much sex" among the "somewhat homosexual". So I can think of only 3 sexualities: "heterosexual", "homosexual", and "somewhat homosexual".
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 6:28:03 GMT 3
Reggae artist Beenie Man and others united against homophobia and other forms of hatred.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2011 6:38:13 GMT 3
When I first heard this song and for a very long time after I thought that Red Rat was a woman. Not so ya know. He is a man. Here he sings with the ultra homophobic Buju Banton who regularly sings songs counselling shooting gay people in the head. Buju had no problem singing with a man who is feminine looking and sounds like a woman.
here you can see the very girly looking Red Rat. Not every man who is girly is gay either people.
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Post by kamalet on May 18, 2011 7:09:06 GMT 3
motives...motives!!! Lead us to a long winded article that says absolutely nothing of what sexuality(ies) in the african context is!
But I can only assume that it is some activists intention to make a case for gay rights/liberties whatever that means.
As Carol Mutoko told us once - God created Adam and Eve and not Adam and Steve and for every orifice, he gave a purpose.
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Post by madgf on May 18, 2011 9:21:28 GMT 3
We need more open dialogue in this area. This is a very private area for me and if my honey doesn't mind, I must confess we had a sexual healing session which shook me to the core, and made me feel so grateful when he extended his gracious hand to me. I'm loved. I don't mean in the crude sense, but sexuality and humanity at a level of intimacy which when you think about it connects every life force on the planet, to history continually giving birth.
The fascinating thing about sexuality is how it pretty much seems to drive the foundations of an immoral culture: Infidelity, pornography and so on. When you think of sin, the first thing that comes to my mind is sexual misconduct. But paedophilia, incest and sexually related issues troubling us today aren't specified in the biblical context as much. So I'm curious as to where the evolution of sexuality came from.
It was very much a part of ancient philosophy - sophists, foundations of today's jurisprudence where sexuality was very much discussed. Then it somehow metamorphed into hush hush taboo when religions dominated the world. Whereas the undercurrents of society's power were driven by hush networks glorifying sexuality to invoke future ideals. For example, symbolisms such as the 'challis' in reference to a womb, birth, life. Sexual identities in relation to power: sexual preferences - homosexuality, bestiality, masochism and so on.
The first apocalypse, if one takes an exegesis approach to the Old Testament, occurred with Noah and the flood. The earth began to fill with violence and corruption when 'sons of God' came to earth and bore children - mighty men who were of old, men of renown (Genesis 5:4&11). One could infer violence and corruption to be systemic from foreign intrusion, identified by sexuality patterns.
For example, what makes an African man so good in bed as opposed to their Western counterpart? Could this be driving an inferiority complex in Western men, passively perhaps - compensated by conquering the world, generating wealth to satisfy their lack of sexuality and subsequently breeding violence and corruption? On the other hand, a possible lax complex in African men because they have a generous 'equipment' as my honey would say. What's the point in developing the world by generating more peacock theatrics when the African man has what it takes to satisfy the nest?
If we can include sexuality in our discourses, there'd be less incentive to exploit sex as a means to generate money to drive power. We have sex dripping all over every implicit, explicit media outlet, quite frankly, hurting the moral conscience - culminating to corruption and violence. When you observe India and their sexual tantras, despite the fact Indian men are supposed to have the smallest equipment in the world, Bollywood don't do sex. All the colors and sexual explicitness via tantric expressions as religious protocol, looks to be embraced by India's culture with no need to exploit sex to edify desires like they do in the West.
That may explain why India's society as a whole are better able to connect with higher orders - say beyond the carnal. Why hasn't the same ideals been embraced by the West? Despite the fact its higher order power cliques use sexuality to bring Kingdoms down, govts down, brainwash society while denying the culture to be open about it. On that note, I think it should begin in Africa. Minds are less materialistically brainwashed, sexuality is still pretty raw. And by engaging in sexual discourse there may emerge a deeper awareness for an enlightened society which use sexuality to heal than to hurt.
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Post by madgf on May 18, 2011 9:31:09 GMT 3
kathure and others perhaps one of you could elaborate further, i have a question on this does this definition of sexuality particularly in the african context also extend itself to the cultural practice of male circumcision and its sister practice the abhorrent FGM? noting that the ceremonies preceding and post these rites significantly impact how the african communities still practising the traditional methods regard and perceive the individuals status (or sexuality) before and after the rites. and perhaps this is the greatest indicator why its so difficult to end FGM in some communities, yet perhaps understanding this sexuality may pave the way for greater FGM intervention strategy. That could also be a religious exploration. It would be interesting to see when they adopted traditional Islamic practices like FGM, if it changed sexuality patterns. Did more men identify with homosexuality because of this foreign intrusion? Is this how sexuality was intertwined with religious rite of passage?
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Post by merlin on May 18, 2011 22:52:15 GMT 3
Sexuality a Taboo,I have little information about sexuality as it seems to be taboo to discuss this with others. Even discussing this with my own wife seems to have its limitations. So any discussion about sexuality has to involve my own experience and some global information I find in newspapers and books. I have had medium and long term heterosexual relations with different women and I distinguish two major diversities in sexuality, one I like to term as love making and the other as carnal knowledge (or the F word). Love making is a sharing experience to feel my own excitements and these of my woman. It is something as reaching consensus in love making and it needs open communication with each other though more in movements, touching and physical expressions as in words. In most of my relations I found underdeveloped or missing love making communication. Only after some time did my woman learn to open-up and communicate about desires and satisfactions. When the communication is established sexuality enters unexplored areas, inspiring and discovering the working of the body and the satisfaction stimulus to the pleasure area of the brain. For example the sexual satisfaction of the women goes through different phases and one of these is the swelling of the nnnnn, this invites for oral stimulation. Sucking the nnnnn will arouse the swelling and hardening of the vagina when suddenly the nnnnn draws back to the pubis indicating the moment supreme for the mmm to penetrate the vagina and arouse ultimate satisfaction. This process can only be successful if there is sharing of desires and willingness to satisfy each other. Although I never have been able to discuss this with friends I presume that this process is no part of the African Sexuality. I perceive the African sexuality is limited to carnal knowledge (or the F word) a process whereby each of the persons tries to arouse themselves, using the other as an object for satisfaction. It is there where the misconception arrives for satisfaction of desires depending on the physical size of the mmm and the firmness of the Vagina. There is no communication, no searching for timing of the moment supreme. It is a process of two disconnected souls each to achieve satisfaction at their own moments or it is not achieved at all. My perception of African Sexuality limited to the F word is reinforced by the lack of communication and openness to discuss sexuality. The many advertisements in the daily papers for “men’s instant power”, ”maximum size formula”, etc. the high rate of rape, and gang rape in the most bizarre situations the expression of homophobia and the often openly proclaimed demand for congenial rights . As I mentioned before I feel the African society is mainly autocratic also between husband and wife. There is no search for sharing or consensus. African Sexuality seems to be a matter of ownership / rights at one side and obedience / submission at the other side. I do not know where to place notions as love, sharing, consensus, equality, inspiration and respect. I am aware my perception is based on limited facts so if you disagree with my perception than please enlighten me. Although I have written about sexual experience, my interest is more focussed on the power structure of African Sexuality, the suppression of human rights, the use of rape in warfare, the mutilation of the sexual organs of woman and the right for reproduction in hands of the male. It is part of African culture and I like to discover if this has to do with survival of the genes in the past and if this culture still has values for the present or is the cause of poverty and degeneration of the African race. Could it be a matter of kicking the culture or kick the bucket?
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Post by mank on May 19, 2011 3:26:14 GMT 3
Reggae artist Beenie Man and others united against homophobia and other forms of hatred.
My friend, you are tricking us all ... yourself included! Your posts are mostly about "homophobia" after you gave this thread a sensational topic and promised the following: ... I think it a high time that we explore this issue in more detail. So, I'm starting this thread ... ..... I am starting to suspect that you only wanted to post about "homophobia" ... which is fine under the right title, but this way you have us fooled. If we should be discussing homophobia would you at least start by telling us how you see homophobia to manifest itself? It seems like you see homophobia even in some of the postings in this thread, which makes me think then that your definition of homophobia is too broad.
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bagay
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Post by bagay on May 19, 2011 4:55:07 GMT 3
Different perspetive,Will you!!!!!!!
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Post by kipfirimbi on May 19, 2011 6:33:03 GMT 3
Reggae artist Beenie Man and others united against homophobia and other forms of hatred.
My friend, you are tricking us all ... yourself included! Your posts are mostly about "homophobia" after you gave this thread a sensational topic and promised the following: ... I think it a high time that we explore this issue in more detail. So, I'm starting this thread ... ..... I am starting to suspect that you only wanted to post about "homophobia" ... which is fine under the right title, but this way you have us fooled. If we should be discussing homophobia would you at least start by telling us how you see homophobia to manifest itself? It seems like you see homophobia even in some of the postings in this thread, which makes me think then that your definition of homophobia is too broad. This poor gal is trying to funfair gayness .It’s a one sided attempt to propagate for pro gayness and shun in bad light gay phobia and it stands out like dog’s ball. You cant fool jukwaaist and get away with it.
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bagay
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Post by bagay on May 19, 2011 6:53:12 GMT 3
Kasuku qoute' I.M.O there is no African or western Sexuality. The Title should be Human Sexuality,
Merlin qoute' Sexuality a Taboo,
Madgf qoute' could also be a religious exploration'
Kamale qoute' motives...motives!!! Lead us to a long winded article that says absolutely nothing of what sexuality(ies) in the african context is,
Mank qoute' The concepts "heterosexuality" and "homosexuality" seem rather easy to grasp'
I think there is a broader aspect missing in this whole subject. Another human face.
Excuse me,I m not doctor.
There a real humans beings with both anatomy.
Examples,
Female with both organs.
Male with both organs.
Female with a tbm(dick).
Male with a kuma.
The above are normal kawaida guys, giving it all.
Do they fit in this homopobia bussiness.
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Post by kasuku on May 19, 2011 23:21:17 GMT 3
The happiest long lasting Marriages have, among other things, also a successful Sexual life – both verbally and practical way into their late years.
As stated above by merlin… Sexual satisfaction of a woman does go through different phases – way far before the actual act. It starts in the brain even before she knows its coming. Her skin softens and it feels pleasant to the touch it, for example, if it is very hot out there, it will feel cool or when it’s cold weather it feels warm. The mouth looks fuller than usual with a rosy color or if it’s a dark one, it gets a shiny purple color. The eye lids will fall a bit and she will start flirting as soon as she sees her man.
When both have an understanding in this department, he will get the hind and flirt back, give himself mercilessly to her aura; this may go on for some minute, hours, or even days before the tip of the sexual act. This is an extremely strong for-play that can end up in ecstasy.
I also guess that this topic can’t go on without being discussed openly;
I lost my Virginity unwilling with 16 years old (a man drugged and raped me while I was unconscious and we are talking about the 70's). That happens a lot in Kenya even today.
My first real boyfriend after that was also a Kenyan and older than me. He was very equipped and very rough in sex making. Looking back, i see how he was using my young body like a sweet candy he found on the ground. He had quite lot of young lovers around him. When i found about that I dumbed him even though I loved him.
Then I met a Ugandan Man I could have rocked with if only he didn’t have to leave– He was calling me his Princes (I was 19 yrs old). Then a Gambian guy – He was calling me his queen. I am still impressed till today on how those two could stimulate my organ, all done with their equipment long before entering.
My late husband, a European used his tongue and finger with an expertise that was absolutely perfect (This also needs expertise for it will be tickling the most sensitive part of the body of woman)
He told me that an older woman lover taught him how to please a woman that way. That’s when I realized that, those earlier African lovers I had must also have had older women as sex teachers.
I really don’t want to generalize here, but taking it from the experience I had with those first Kenyan men, an experience that threatened to spoil my sexuality before it unfolded to its fullness, I wonder if it is a widespread behavior in Kenya to want to have sex with Teenagers and which pleasures it brings to a man by so brutally making sex to such young tender girls? Are we lacking a positive Sexual teaching for our young men and women?
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Post by kamalet on May 20, 2011 7:24:24 GMT 3
Kasuku
Was that a response on Kathure's idea of sexuality or your idea of updating the kamasutra? Interesting though your experience but a tart bit lurid!
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Post by merlin on May 20, 2011 8:34:04 GMT 3
Kamalet,Please be careful with sneering comments on the subject of sexuality. It is not like politics. If you are unable to contribute and share any of your own experiences and feelings regarding this subject then please stay away from this thread. There are many other subjects to satisfy your intellectual needs. Please leave some room for others. Conversely you are appreciated.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 8:48:36 GMT 3
Kamalet,Please be careful with sneering comments on the subject of sexuality. It is not like politics. If you are unable to contribute and share any of your own experiences and feelings regarding this subject then please stay away from this thread. There are many other subjects to satisfy your intellectual needs. Please leave some room for others. Conversely you are appreciated. Merlin,Kamalet just woke up feeling particularly misogynist today.
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Post by kamalet on May 20, 2011 9:10:55 GMT 3
Kamalet,Please be careful with sneering comments on the subject of sexuality. It is not like politics. If you are unable to contribute and share any of your own experiences and feelings regarding this subject then please stay away from this thread. There are many other subjects to satisfy your intellectual needs. Please leave some room for others. Conversely you are appreciated. Kathure If you get turned on by Kasuku detailed explanation of her former husband's prowess in use of the tongue and tool, I can grant you, but to me that was lurid and unnecessary.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 9:26:34 GMT 3
Kasuku Was that a response on Kathure's idea of sexuality or your idea of updating the kamasutra? Interesting though your experience but a tart bit lurid! Kamalet clearly has an ax or two to grind with me. Yes agreed, he has an ax to grind with many people here on JUKWAA, but he takes keen interest in me. He finds me particularly offensive because I don't worship at the altar of the powers that be; in the Mt. Kenya region and beyond. Given that we are cast as coming from a particular voting block, "our" home turf, he assumes and expects that I and everyone else from the region should toe the line. This particularly because I am a woman and the "betrayal" is perceived as that much more complete. Seen through the patriarchal lens of a person such as kamalet I deserve "what's coming to me." Kenyans, by now you know the drill. The same sort of stance as the one addvaced targetting Karua and in a similar but differently gendered way Kenneth ati they are selling out the mother land, the tribe and that they should line up behind blah blah blah. We are over that? Right people?
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2011 9:33:49 GMT 3
Kamalet,Please be careful with sneering comments on the subject of sexuality. It is not like politics. If you are unable to contribute and share any of your own experiences and feelings regarding this subject then please stay away from this thread. There are many other subjects to satisfy your intellectual needs. Please leave some room for others. Conversely you are appreciated. Kathure If you get turned on by Kasuku detailed explanation of her former husband's prowess in use of the tongue and tool, I can grant you, but to me that was lurid and unnecessary. Kamalet I had to quote this now so that you don't erase it before it is saved safely somewhere else. I'll get round to your rubbish only because we are engaged in battles for the minds and hearts of the people. Guess which forces will prevail? Look around and see.
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Post by merlin on May 20, 2011 10:00:48 GMT 3
The happiest long lasting Marriages have, among other things, also a successful Sexual life – both verbally and practical way into their late years. I really don’t want to generalize here, but taking it from the experience I had with those first Kenyan men, an experience that threatened to spoil my sexuality before it unfolded to its fullness, I wonder if it is a widespread behavior in Kenya to want to have sex with Teenagers and which pleasures it brings to a man by so brutally making sex to such young tender girls? Are we lacking a positive Sexual teaching for our young men and women? Kasuku, I perceive being taught by an older woman or man - or sexual healing session as madgf mentioned - will help to become more converse in stimulating your man or woman. However it can be discovered if both are willing to communicate and search for consensus and sharing. Sexual relation is a major stimulant and reward in life though there are not many opportunities to learn to deal with sexuality. It is presumed as an inborn natural skill and many cultural taboos’s restrain us to acquire sufficient skills for long-lasting rewards. It would be interesting to know by whom and at what time in life these skills for lovemaking were acquired and when the breakthrough occurred to communicate about it in openness. Teenagers,The urge for carnal knowledge (the F-word) is build into our genes. Genes without this quality have long time ago died out as they were not reproduced. Therefore it is not unusual that man like to F. However like with many other urges - like thirst and hunger - humans have explored and cultivated ways to improve the satisfaction of their urges (Maslow). The way in which we deal with our sexual urges is not much different from the way we deal with others and the world around us. Some are mainly driven by the basic urges and others have discovered ways and satisfaction beyond this.
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Post by kamalet on May 20, 2011 11:11:34 GMT 3
Kathure If you get turned on by Kasuku detailed explanation of her former husband's prowess in use of the tongue and tool, I can grant you, but to me that was lurid and unnecessary. Kamalet I had to quote this now so that you don't erase it before it is saved safely somewhere else. I'll get round to your rubbish only because we are engaged in battles for the minds and hearts of the people. Guess which forces will prevail? Look around and see. have no fear woman! I do not erase anything in Jukwaa. I normally think through what I right.....even rubbish which you would not even know if it hit you. As for your battle of hearts and mind, you will find that other people prefer doing more important things!
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Post by kasuku on May 20, 2011 11:29:12 GMT 3
Kamale, am not a sexual scholar or Therapist. So I will leave the theory to those.
My telling about the 4 different experiences was actually to pinpoint that first two experiences that have remained tucked in my mind and actually have driven me to be who I am today.
I need to discuss this openly because I have a call to protect young people from being sexually exploited and molested. I have a call to point out to parents that they are helping their children ran into the hands of these Monsters when they make sexual dialog a Taboo. You know that when you refuse a kid anything without explaingnig why, they will do it just for the fun of doing it. It is adventurous to do the forbidden.
Many Kenyan men just need to see a young girl boobs poking the blouse; My daughter, who was then 12 years old was one late afternoon walking to a kiosk behind our house when a man tried to pick her up by inviting her for soda. Another episode; I went to toilet in a nyama choma sport. While washing hands i had to bend (had a long dress on) a guy came out of the Gents and told me if he sees me bend like that am inviting him to just…you know? This is ridiculous, why is a woman in Kenya often a walking Vagina?
This surely is a topic that needs an open dialog between all involved.
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Post by kamalet on May 20, 2011 11:50:45 GMT 3
Kasuku
You miss my point! I do not think it is how many people you slept with or how they did it that strengthens the topic. What would have made it strong is the way you articulate the morals of your experiences!
The issue of sexuality - morality etc are things that can be discussed on the basis of cultural experiences rather than individual experience.
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