|
Post by miguna on Apr 1, 2007 7:20:39 GMT 3
If someone is convicted but is otherwise innocent (in other words, in what is called "a false conviction," ) we only find out of the "innocence" because the conviction has been overturned/quashed on appeal; the person's innocence has been established post-facto in some fashion such as after a judicial inquiry, a confession from somene else or an admission that the person was innocent from the prosecuting authority. If any of these do not happen, you cannot say "a convicted person is innocent." To do so would be internally contradictory and illogical. Of course, there are those who will always maintain a stance, one way or the other. Those stances do not change facts. To be GUILTY, one has TO BE CONVICTED. If you understand law, then this is not a point worth arguing, unless one is a pedestrian, in which case, one can always make such arguments...
An acquittal is what demonstrates innocence. There is no other LEGAL way of establishing innocence other than through an acquittal. An acquittal (note that this is not a stay of proceedings) of anyone is a legal vindication and there is no logical or reasonable basis for any intelligent person to claim that anyone who has been acquitted can also be guilty at the same time.
We must respect the rule of law. Once one has been subjected to a judicial process that is fair and objective, we must accept the results. If one rejects the results, they are always welcome to appeal the decision. If or when the highest court (on such appeals decide on a matter), again, civilized people who respect the rule of law, must accept the verdict.
But then again, we have the incorrigle amongst us who will never believe anything, partly or wholly because they are delusional or completely drugged...
Deya has neither been convicted nor acquitted of the charges. THAT IS A FACT. Fudging it with mumbo jumbo doesn't bother anyone. Once he has either been convicted or acquitted, please announce to the entire world from your rooftops. Until then, you are just speculators...[unedited]
Miguna ===========================================================
|
|
|
Post by wanyee on Apr 2, 2007 7:49:54 GMT 3
Miguna,
There is a possibility of Deya never being convicted, even by the highest court in the land.
Are you saying that this will mean that he his innocent?
Alexander has pointed out, for instance, that "you would have been acquitted of sexual assault, yet that does not mean you did not do it. It only means that police and criminal register may not treat you as an offender."
Anyway, how are the parents (especially) expected to "speculate", in view of such glaring anomalies, and more so if Deya is not convicted?
"Kenyan police found the child at the home of the Oderas, a couple linked to the London-based pastor, Archbishop Gilbert Deya, who claims to be able to make infertile women pregnant through prayer. He was one of 11 children seized. A further nine were taken from the Nairobi home of Mrs Deya, the archbishop's wife. Kenyan police say DNA tests show only one of the children belongs to Mrs Deya. None is the biological child of the Oderas."
Do you think that there could be a logical explanation to this? Perhaps these 20 children were part of an elaborate scheme to frame the Deyas and the Oderas?
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Apr 2, 2007 16:42:52 GMT 3
Wanyee,
I think I've already answered you. If you don't understand what I've clearly stated, that's your problem, not mine.
I am not bothered by the nonsense you and others frequently peddle here or elsewhere.
But I can assure you that the direction both you and the madman is taking will get you into very serious legal trouble. That I can tell you for free.
If you cannot discus or debate the issues logically, please kindly stay away from them. Anyone who knows anything about law and legal procedure knows the following:
1. An allegation can be made falsely or truthfully. The mere fact that anyone makes any allegation does not lift the allegation to a "factual finding." To say that would mean that I can today accuse you, Wanyee, of anything and that my mere accusation would establish that you are guilty and therefore a criminal.
Anyone with common sense knows that this is not just unfair, it makes no sense. But, of course, you and others seem to have ulterior and malicious motives which you would want to advance.
It is amazing that you seem to have serious difficulty with the principle of presumption of innocence only when it touches on Deya or other boggey men that you hate.
But we never heard your voice, even once, condemning the Artur Brothers, who were captured on video and hundreds of people witnessed their criminal sactivities in Kenya.
I never saw a single line from you. Nor have we read anything from you on the Goldenberg, Anglo Fleecing and other scandals that have been more documented that this Deya issue.
2. Only a court of law makes findings of fact based on the evidence. After the court hears all the evidence and makes findings of fact, you will be stuck with those findings unless or until you overturn them on appeal or through other legal process. That is not nuclear physics.
3. The presumption of innocence attaches to everyone accused of a crime. It does not matter what kind of a crime. And the presumption continues to apply until either a conviction or an acquittal. If a person is acquitted, yes, their innoncence is established, more so if they denied the accusation throughout.
4. Go back and read my posts.
You got it all mixed up in your hurry to irrationally accuse. It will end you nowhere. It might cause you grief if you use this forum to defame, directly or through innuendo. That is a warning to both of you.
I am willing to debate anyone here on issues, using only reason, logic and facts. I do not resort to unfair, false, unfounded, malicious and concocted allegations to try and win a debate. Such are cowardly tricks that shall never deter me. I think you are new to these issues and a bit mesmerized by the fact that you can be on the same forum with some of us. That's all right, as long as you conduct yourself with some decorum.
The moment you start veering off into making allegations by innuendo, insinuations or implications, like you seem to be doing, my brother, I can assure you that you are going to receive what you never asked for. My contribution here is not a solicitation, invitation or consent for anyone to engage in mischief. [unedited]
Miguna ==================================================================
|
|
|
Post by aeichener on Apr 2, 2007 17:40:15 GMT 3
Could somebody open the hot air valve, please ? I sense overpressure. I don't want to see anybody burst.
A.
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Apr 2, 2007 20:17:03 GMT 3
Be careful what you ask for.
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Apr 3, 2007 7:39:17 GMT 3
Subtle threats Miguna will not do!!!
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Apr 3, 2007 17:50:44 GMT 3
Let's wait and see.
Miguna ======================
|
|
|
Post by wanyee on Apr 11, 2007 19:10:27 GMT 3
Miguna,
What is so "mesmerizing" about discussing things with you? Is this what you really think? (Careful, lest you be debased). Na uwache hivyo vitisho vyako. Hakuna mtu atagutuka hata ukiandika na kalamu nyekundu kuliko ile uliyotumia mbeleni.
Wasee (kama wewe pia) wananafaa wajue waKenya sio wapumbavu.
Unasikia vizuri?
I'm just in the middle of something right now, but you can rest assured that I will be back - very soon.
Naja.
Na mapambano sio kwa internet peke yake. Mwenyezi Mungu akitujaalia, tutakutana uwanjani hivi karibuni...
---
You were saying something about those Artur chaps:
Raila tells Parliament Armenian brothers back
Story by OWINO OPONDO Publication Date: 4/11/2007
Lang'ata MP Raila Odinga today claimed in Parliament that the deported Armenian brothers are back in the country.
Mr Odinga, who first revealed the brothers' presence in the country, told the House they were once again enjoying State security and hospitality.
He said the two, Artur Margaryan and Artur Sargsyan were recently spotted in Mombasa and at Nakuru State Lodge.
The Armenians were deported from Kenya after causing a security breach at the Jomo Kenyatta International Airport where they attempted to force a guest through the customs desk without clearance.
Soon after being ejected from the country, police raided their rented residence where they recovered firearms, bullets, unregistered vehicles, registration plates for local, GK and diplomatic corps vehicles, security cameras, and an assortment of military uniforms.
The Langata member spoke as MPs demanded that the findings of the Kiruki Commission be made public.
Internal Security assistant minister Peter Munya discounted Mr Odinga’s claims: “These are wild allegations because the MP (Raila) is always dreaming about State House and State Lodges.”
He was answering a question by Ndhiwa MP Orwa Ojodeh who wanted to know when the minister will release the Kiruki Commission Report on the two Armenian brothers which was presented to the President last year.
Mr Munya responded that the report will not be made public because due to security considerations.
The Government had studied the report and realized it touched on sensitive national security issues such as the Immigration, customs, and airports.
|
|
|
Post by miguna on Apr 12, 2007 0:28:00 GMT 3
|
|