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Post by Titchaz on Mar 11, 2012 8:33:40 GMT 3
I don't know about the truth behind this statement but here we go... Raila: Arrest Uhuru and Ruto for fuelling anti-ICC sentiment Prime Minister Raila Odinga says Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta and Eldoret North MP William Ruto should be arrested for using “prayer” rallies to fuel sentiment against their prosecution at the International Criminal Court. Mr Odinga said it was improper that individuals who have been indicted on charges that they sponsored the 2007/8 violence that claimed more than 1,000 lives were operating as free men. “Crimes against humanity are worse than murder. Yet these suspects of crimes against humanity remain free to traverse the country holding ‘prayer meetings’ – while Kenyan suspects of the lesser crime of murder conduct their prayers only behind the forbidding walls of Kamiti Maximum Security Prison, often for years before their cases are heard,” said a blistering statement from the Raila Odinga Secretariat published by the Nation.He said that instead of the suspects directing their energies to grand standing and voicing their innocence in public forums, they should wait to make their arguments in court. “The guilt or innocence of suspected perpetrators is proved through trial, where the facts of the case are examined. No one becomes innocent through public grandstanding and shouting from the rooftops “I am innocent’,” said the statement.“The suspects are not being tried by public opinion. The platform for these suspects to prove their innocence is the ICC. It is the platform they chose. In the meantime, they remain suspects in terrible crimes against Kenyans.” Mr Odinga was responding to claims in Parliament Thursday when MPs allied to Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto tabled what has been described as a forged document alleging that the British government was working with the ICC to have President Kibaki indicted over the violence after he leaves office. (READ: UK accused of seeking Kibaki trial at ICC) The statement was uncharacteristic of the PM who has been mostly restrained in his comments on the charged matter. Yatta MP Charles Kilonzo, who tabled the document on Thursday, also accused the United Kingdom of propping up Mr Odinga and pushing for the detention of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto at the ICC. The document further indicated that the UK wants Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto arrested for allegedly threatening the security of the country through their so-called “prayer rallies” . Since their indictment, the two suspects have been holding political rallies at which they have presented themselves as victims of persecution by powerful foreign forces through the ICC proceedings with the intention of killing their political dreams. In doing so, the two have resorted to hyperbole and hysteria, and many in their communities of followed them. Mr Odinga was on official business in Europe when the allegations were made. Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto, who have indicated their intentions to vie for the presidency, have accused Mr Odinga, their principal competitor, of engineering the ICC proceedings in order to lock them out of the presidential race. Mr Odinga has laughed off the accusations, saying the ICC intervened after MPs — including allies of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto — failed to set up a local tribunal to try those suspected of having sponsored the violence. Despite the increasing odds against their possible candidatures, the two men, whose trials could begin after May, have maintained they would be on the ballot regardless of the proceedings. The other suspects in the case are Head of Public Service Francis Muthaura who has since stepped aside from his office and journalist Joshua arap Sang. The National Security Intelligence Service and the British High Commission have both described the document as a forgery. The UK has also denied claims that it was backing Mr Odinga’s presidential campaign. “The UK has no interest in any particular outcome in the General Election and is not backing any particular candidates or parties,” the High Commission said Friday. In his statement, Mr Odinga said he appeared to be the target of the “so-called UK Government document introduced into Parliament on Thursday.” He said that those behind the document spoke of the possible indictment of President Kibaki in a desperate attempt to gain public sympathy and drag other individuals into the matter. (READ: UK denies Kibaki ICC plot) “Kenyans watched ICC proceedings closely, and President Kibaki was mentioned nowhere as a perpetrator,” the statement said. He accused proponents of the campaign of defiling Parliament and rallied “all progressive Kenyans of sincerity” to take note that investigations on the violence were conducted and the Waki Commission compiled a list of suspected perpetrators that was handed over in “its entirety” to the ICC. This appeared to be in reply to calls by a group of pro-PNU youths who on Wednesday petitioned President KIbaki to trigger action that would see all those named in connection with the violence made public. “The document is clearly a forgery, part of a smear campaign fabricated by the same political interests that earlier forged a letter purporting to be from Prof Anyang’ Nyong’o to the ICC.” This was in reference to a 2011 letter attributed Prof Nyongo, the ODM secretary-general, to the ICC produced by MPs allied to the Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto pushing for the prosecutions. The document is now the subject of a court case. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Uhuru+and+Ruto+ought+to+be+in+jail+says+Raila+/-/1064/1363780/-/1bcbth/-/index.html
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Post by Titchaz on Mar 11, 2012 8:38:19 GMT 3
Prime Minister of Kenya, Raila Amolo Odinga speaks during a press conference on March 8, 2012 at the EU Headquarters in Brussels. EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy (R) welcomes Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga (L) on March 7, 2012 before a working session at the EU Headquarters in Brussels. EU Council president Herman Van Rompuy (R) and Prime minister of Kenya Raila Odinga (L) give a joint press conference after their working session on March 7, 2012 at the EU Headquarters in Brussels. European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso (R) and Prime Minister of Kenya, Raila Amolo Odinga (L) give a joint press conference after their working session on March 8, 2012 at the EU Headquarters in Brussels. Prime Minister Raila Odinga and President of European Council Mr Herman Van Rompuy after a joint press briefing at the Justus Lipsius Building in Brussels, Belgium on March 7, 2012.
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Post by furaha on Mar 11, 2012 10:20:38 GMT 3
Although one can read all manner of electoral politics in the PM's statement, he has got a point.
The ICC's summons procedure is quite unique in that it leaves suspects and accused free to go as they please until their trials. They are not detained, the reason being that it is hoped suspects may be more willing to cooperate with the court if they are not arrested. And indeed, there is a lot to be said for this. It is doubtful whether the O 6 would have travelled to The Hague for their initial hearings had they known they would be arrested the moment they landed on Dutch soil. Voluntary cooperation with the court is rewarded with freedom from arrest unless suspects abuse the conditions set by the court.
But i do not know of a country that would leave individuals suspected of very serious crimes such as crimes against humanity free to roam as they please while awaiting trial. Even in countries with a bail system it would be dificult to be granted bail for crimes of a somewhat less serious nature, such as multiple homicide, rape etc.
While it may suit the ICC to apply the summons procedure, it puts countries and societies in which the suspects/accused reside at risk. And the ICC procedure contrasts the domestic practice in almost all countries, including Kenya, where people are arrested and detained pending trial for far less serious or even frivolous charges.
The procedure should be adjusted to allow for arrest once charges have been confirmed.
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Post by topnotch on Mar 11, 2012 11:09:15 GMT 3
I've read the whole thing and at no point was Raila quoted verbatim saying the two should be arrested. Can someone show me part of his speech where he said that.
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Post by b6k on Mar 11, 2012 13:00:52 GMT 3
Topnotch, post the statement you claim to have read since the Nation article posted above seems to bear quotation marks around what Raila's statement said.
I agree with Furaha. The alleged Raila statement may be hard hitting, but it is true. Why should ICC suspects be free to bad mouth the very same ICC they will be compelled to face? Why should they remain on the ballot when it will be untenable given their calendars will be filled with the inevitable appearances in court at Den Haag? It beggers belief...
My only problem with Raila in this case is he leaves the hard hitting statements for when he is abroad. Just like he decided to announce his candidacy in Los Angeles, a decision I've questioned severally here on Jukwaa & have never received a response to from his cheering squad. Why the grandstanding only when he is out in the western world & vitendawili & football stories while here in KE? Who is he pandering to? The people of Kenya or the powers that be in the west?
Anyway this statement is too hot. Expect him to backtrack like he did on his infamous rant against homosexuals.
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Post by Mr Defence on Mar 11, 2012 13:51:47 GMT 3
Anyway this statement is too hot. Expect him to backtrack like he did on his infamous rant against homosexuals. I agree this headline is too provocative
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Post by samson on Mar 11, 2012 13:54:39 GMT 3
Hon Raila has a point ,both legaly and moraly but Politicaly the O4.cases will hurt ODM,Why? If both uhuru and ruto vie for presdency, Hon Raila wil win with minimal effort,if they dont chances are they will back one candidate,who will be a serious challange to Pm. Pm shd have kept his views private, he needs every possible support to win.
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Post by nowayhaha on Mar 11, 2012 18:35:04 GMT 3
Raila plays into the tricks of Uhuruto ...... Why arrest Uhuru and Ruto and Not Sang and Muthaura ? Is Mudavadi safe ? If Raila wins the the president-ship will he become a dictator and alienate Mudavadi after the latter helps him clinch the top position just like he did with Ruto ......Is it true that Raila is using the ICC process to make sure Uhuruto are arrested in Jail so that they dont run for presidency . All this is corroborated by the letters of O.D.M. to U.N. and such prime-ministerial statements . Going by this I see Kibaki in the Jails of Hague when Raila becomes the president not that he has been found guilty just like in the case of Uhuruto but for political scores . This brings the question is it true Raila is working with foreign powers and using the ICC as tool to "end impunity" and what has has Raila promised the foreign nations and ICC ? unday, March 11 2012 at 16:37 Prime Minister Raila Odinga should not use his post to call for the arrest of those he considers his rivals, Deputy PM Uhuru Kenyatta and Eldoret North MP William Ruto said on Sunday. Mr Kenyatta said it was unfortunate for the PM to make such remarks considering International Criminal Court (ICC) matters were sensitive. “It is such reckless remarks that led to the 2007 crisis which led to the loss of lives and property. He must not be allowed to polarise our country in this manner,” he said. Mr Ruto said the PM should be the first person to be jailed if the post-election violence mystery is to be resolved since a Kenya National Commission on Human Rights (KNCHR) report had implicated him. “In fact he (Raila) became the greatest beneficiary after the violence,” he said. The Eldoret North MP said findings of the KNCHR report should be made public for Kenyans to know other perpetrators of the 2007-2008 post-election violence. “If he is branding us as criminals, what about the allegations contained in the report that say he is the beneficiary of the violence,” the Eldoret North MP said. In an interview with the US based Kass FM, Mr Odinga called for prayer rallies organised by the G7 Alliance to be cancelled as they were amounting to incitement. Share This Story 4Share A statement from PM Odinga's Secretariat in the Sunday Nation reads: "These suspects of crimes against humanity remain free to traverse the country holding 'prayer meetings' while Kenyan suspects of the lesser crime of murder conduct their prayers only behind the forbidding walls of Kamiti Maximum Security Prison," the statement reads. In response to the statement, Mr Ruto said: “It is obvious and beyond reasonable doubt that the author, mastermind and architect of this grand scheme against us to be prosecuted politically and unfairly is actually done by Mr Odinga.” Speaking during a press conference at St Mathews Anglican Church of Kenya, Eldoret on Sunday, the United Republican Party (URP) leader said Mr Odinga was vilifying them now that he holds the PM post yet it was only formed to end the stalemate after the 2007 General Election. “Mr Odinga now believes we are criminals and should be behind bars. But he should have been put in before us. He is actually the principle beneficiary of the post-election violence,” he said. Mr Ruto said the PM should not use his post to call for the arrest of his rivals. “There has been a consistent pattern in ODM and the party wrote letters to the effect that we should be tried at The Hague. “This is now being followed to the letter by his collaborators in Europe who want us to be detained when we attend ICC summons,” he said. Mr Ruto said this “was a confirmation that Mr Odinga was part of the scheme to have them detained by ICC in the pretext that prayer meetings going around the country.” “Pray for us, we Kenyan politicians and leaders so that we set all our plans in a manner that will bring together Kenyans,” he added. Ruto, Uhuru hit back at Raila over 'prayer rallies' remark www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Ruto+and+Uhuru+hit+back+at+Raila+over+prayer+rallies+remark/-/1064/1364118/-/item/1/-/8sb8vnz/-/index.html
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Post by kamalet on Mar 11, 2012 19:29:12 GMT 3
Whoever advises the PM needs to be sacked. Just how does anyone drag the PM into saying this in public? As the say, "some truths are better not told".
The reactions will be swift....all I can say!
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Mar 11, 2012 19:50:10 GMT 3
Whoever advises the PM needs to be sacked. Just how does anyone drag the PM into saying this in public? As the say, "some truths are better not told". The reactions will be swift....all I can say! Besides, what moral authority does Raila Odinga have on this issue as the biggest beneficiary of the PEV. He should lead the way to the Hague as others follow.
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Post by deyiengs on Mar 11, 2012 19:52:03 GMT 3
I want Agwambo to state categorically that he wants Ouru and Ruto detained. Because they deserve it, no need to dilly-dally and let The PNU mouthpiece daily Nation do the talking for them. It's clear they wanted a response from Uhuruto who's plan now is to destabilize Kenya politically. They've started doing that by forging diplomatic documents. Nothing to fear Agwambo twende kazi.
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Post by furaha on Mar 11, 2012 20:12:18 GMT 3
Whoever advises the PM needs to be sacked. Just how does anyone drag the PM into saying this in public? As the say, "some truths are better not told". The reactions will be swift....all I can say! Kamalet and others, As I wrote earlier, many will probably read all manner of politics into the PM's statement. And you have a point when you warn of swift reactions. However, the question remains on which grounds such swift reactions (and I suppose they will be vile) are justified. Look at what has been happening since the confirmation of charges and particularly over the last two weeks. I am not only referring to continuing prayer rallies but also to Matsanga's dubious parading of a 2009 video, the forged UK document, renewed demands to release the names in the infamous envelope and so on. All these appear to be part of an effort to drag the PM into PEV and to prevent him from ever becoming president. I am not aware of the existence of any evidence that the PM was directly involved in instigating or supporting PEV. If you have such evidence please share it with us and with the ICC. Then we can have a meaningful debate. Thusfar we seem to be seeing more fabricated than genuine evidence. Given the situation it is difficult to expect the PM to remain silent. Even though an election date is yet to be set, the campaign season has clearly started. Anyone has a right to defend himself or herself against (false) accusations. And yes, maybe you are right, and reactions will be swift and vile. But I for one would prefer to have the debate out in the open. Then we know what we are talking about. Forget about all this cloak and dagger stuff. Let Kenyans make up their minds on the basis of facts. I hope that an opinion poll will be held, asking Kenyans what they think of the O4 remaining free pending trial. And that those who say that they agree that the four should remain free are asked this follow-up question: do you want them to remain free because you fear violence if they are arrested? It is a very odd situation that individuals who now stand accused of the most heinous crimes remain free until their trials. Many Kenyans who are languishing in detention centres while awaiting trial for lesser or even frivolous charges would love to exchange places with them. furaha
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 11, 2012 20:22:49 GMT 3
Folks,
I saw this story yesterday and didn't pay much attention to it. Now that I have read it and seen some of the reactions and threats from the regular folks let me say a few things.
1. The ICC indicted suspects have had a field day in Kenya. They have behaved as if they are the victims and the media for the most part had been part of that. They have gone around the country preaching hatred and the most vile forms of ethnic incitement. Some of the stuff these guys have said in public cannot be repeated.
The indicted suspects have behaved as if they own the country. They seem to think Kenyans are ready to worship those who committed crimes against humanity in the country and murdered thousands of Kenyans and anybody who says otherwise is a devil. They have been concocting and forging rubbish to try to prove that they are just victims of some conspiracy. So far they have had a free reign.
Here is my question. What if those who are opposed to impunity and crimes against humanity committed in Kenya also take a militant and direct confrontational approach? What would the result be for the country? What if people who think mass murder and rape is wrong and those involved in the same have no business pissing on everybody else day and night decide to take the battle to the suspects who are trying to bully everybody? Where would that take the country? The country would be on a war footing. Now instead of the suspects letting things cool down and let the country move towards reconciliation they are on a war path and have chosen their targets, of which Raila Amolo Odinga is the key. The indicted suspects want everybody else to let them do their thing or else. Isn't that the exact same thing they did when they killed people? They think it is their right to attack Raila everyday even using criminally forged documents but lo and behold if Raila ever dares answer them it is a declaration of war! Really?
Why do those suspected of the worst crimes in our country think we all have to shut up and if we don't there will be hell to pay? Is that the same attitude they had when committing those crimes? They never even for a second thought they should be answerable to anyone. You don't go about organizing mass murder and rape unless you are convinced you are above the law.
Yes, they are above the law in Kenya and now they have the ICC to face and they have been menacing the country unchallenged for far too long. If Raila was the one charged with mass murder and rape and he was going around the country threatening the nation with lies and mischief many people including myself would tell him to shut up.
2. Our government just after the Confirmation Hearing did what they have done for ages now. They pretended for a few days that they are still concerned about the crimes of the PEV. There was talk of looking into ways of taking the cases up. We had about 5,000 pending cases being brought to court. That empty talk has now died down. Instead we have seen the suspects go everywhere spreading lies and hatred as the helpless state (which they control) is comatose. Even the laws against hate speech are dead when it comes to the indicted suspects. The Commission on National Cohesion itself has declared their helplessness in dealing with the matter. In other words the lunatics are running the asylum.
We have seen the suspects go on a forgery spree to implicate other people in their misery and threaten other countries that are friendly to Kenya. These guys are committing crimes as we speak as part of their scheme of lies. Just a few days ago one of those forged documents found its way into the National Assembly. We have seen the name of the President of Kenya dragged into the treachery of lies. We have seen the name of the PM of Kenya constantly dragged into the same lies. We have seen attempts to interfere with witnesses through the efforts of known criminals working with and for the suspects. What next?
Obviously the Kenyan government is hostage to the suspects. Who then will protect the interests of the Kenyan public and most importantly the victims of the terrible crimes these suspects have been accused of. We hear token promises after each stage of the ICC hearing to pretend the Kenyan government is concerned about the victims.
As soon as the dust settles and the indicted suspects take over in the corridors of power all those lame promises disappear. For how long will Kenyan put up with the failure of their own government to treat the PEV crimes as crimes against Kenyans for which their own government has responsibilities? Is the failure of the government to do anything for the PEV indicative of the fact that the indicted suspects ar key pillars in the present government? Where does that leave the Kenyan public? Who will protect them? Only Ocampo and the ICC?
3. There is a political mantra out there based on political opportunism which dictates that anybody who wants to get anywhere close to power in Kenya has to be nice to the indicted suspects. You have to stoke their ego constantly and literally wipe their behind so you can hope to inherit their supporters. Someone like our VP, Kalonzo Musyoka is a virtual victim to that convoluted thinking.
Raila is expected by the "wise" ones to keep quiet, avoid making the suspects mad. Sugar coat their charges and turn your back on the victims and may be they can forgive you. What a load of rubbish.
You go around murdering people in their thousands and raping women and children and we all have to pat you in the back for that great feat and sweep the street you walk on so that you don't get angry with us. What kind of a country is that? Where else in the world can leaders wear charges of mass murder and rape as badges of honour? And we are supposed to worship that criminal mindset lest we be seen as not so clever in politics? I don't think so.
4. Ruto went on to the offense soon after the PM's statement. I like Ruto's statement that Raila should go to jail first before they go to jail. Let's agree on one thing. Those involved in these crimes should go to jail. Each and everyone of them belong in jail. If Ruto and/or anybody else has evidence that Raila was part of the mass murder and rape, please by all means take him with you to jail. Tell Ocampo everything.
What we cannot tolerate anymore is a handful of people facing the most horrific crimes ever committed on our soil blackmailing the country with the nonsense that they are the real victims and making a mockery of very terrible crimes that almost destroyed our country. If we need a head on fight in the country to sort this mess out, let's have it. It is long overdue.
This business of bemberezaring criminals is an insult to the country. Let's deal with it fair and square and I don't care if Raila becomes the president or not. Stand for the truth and against genociders and let the chips fall where they may.
Packaged politics is what is killing the country today. Let's do what is good for the country and not what is good for anybody's political ambitions. Some people say, oh we don't want Raila to run for the presidency. Have they ever thought of what he would do if he were free from the bondage of being nice even to criminals. I think it is time to fight for the soul of the country and not just for political office. This is the year to do it. All the elements are there.
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Post by Omwenga on Mar 11, 2012 22:55:44 GMT 3
I don't know about the truth behind this statement but here we go... Raila: Arrest Uhuru and Ruto for fuelling anti-ICC sentiment Prime Minister Raila Odinga says Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta and Eldoret North MP William Ruto should be arrested for using “prayer” rallies to fuel sentiment against their prosecution at the International Criminal Court. Mr Odinga said it was improper that individuals who have been indicted on charges that they sponsored the 2007/8 violence that claimed more than 1,000 lives were operating as free men. “Crimes against humanity are worse than murder. Yet these suspects of crimes against humanity remain free to traverse the country holding ‘prayer meetings’ – while Kenyan suspects of the lesser crime of murder conduct their prayers only behind the forbidding walls of Kamiti Maximum Security Prison, often for years before their cases are heard,” said a blistering statement from the Raila Odinga Secretariat published by the Nation.He said that instead of the suspects directing their energies to grand standing and voicing their innocence in public forums, they should wait to make their arguments in court. “The guilt or innocence of suspected perpetrators is proved through trial, where the facts of the case are examined. No one becomes innocent through public grandstanding and shouting from the rooftops “I am innocent’,” said the statement.“The suspects are not being tried by public opinion. The platform for these suspects to prove their innocence is the ICC. It is the platform they chose. In the meantime, they remain suspects in terrible crimes against Kenyans.” Mr Odinga was responding to claims in Parliament Thursday when MPs allied to Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto tabled what has been described as a forged document alleging that the British government was working with the ICC to have President Kibaki indicted over the violence after he leaves office. (READ: UK accused of seeking Kibaki trial at ICC) The statement was uncharacteristic of the PM who has been mostly restrained in his comments on the charged matter. Yatta MP Charles Kilonzo, who tabled the document on Thursday, also accused the United Kingdom of propping up Mr Odinga and pushing for the detention of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto at the ICC. The document further indicated that the UK wants Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto arrested for allegedly threatening the security of the country through their so-called “prayer rallies” . Since their indictment, the two suspects have been holding political rallies at which they have presented themselves as victims of persecution by powerful foreign forces through the ICC proceedings with the intention of killing their political dreams. In doing so, the two have resorted to hyperbole and hysteria, and many in their communities of followed them. Mr Odinga was on official business in Europe when the allegations were made. Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto, who have indicated their intentions to vie for the presidency, have accused Mr Odinga, their principal competitor, of engineering the ICC proceedings in order to lock them out of the presidential race. Mr Odinga has laughed off the accusations, saying the ICC intervened after MPs — including allies of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto — failed to set up a local tribunal to try those suspected of having sponsored the violence. Despite the increasing odds against their possible candidatures, the two men, whose trials could begin after May, have maintained they would be on the ballot regardless of the proceedings. The other suspects in the case are Head of Public Service Francis Muthaura who has since stepped aside from his office and journalist Joshua arap Sang. The National Security Intelligence Service and the British High Commission have both described the document as a forgery. The UK has also denied claims that it was backing Mr Odinga’s presidential campaign. “The UK has no interest in any particular outcome in the General Election and is not backing any particular candidates or parties,” the High Commission said Friday. In his statement, Mr Odinga said he appeared to be the target of the “so-called UK Government document introduced into Parliament on Thursday.” He said that those behind the document spoke of the possible indictment of President Kibaki in a desperate attempt to gain public sympathy and drag other individuals into the matter. (READ: UK denies Kibaki ICC plot) “Kenyans watched ICC proceedings closely, and President Kibaki was mentioned nowhere as a perpetrator,” the statement said. He accused proponents of the campaign of defiling Parliament and rallied “all progressive Kenyans of sincerity” to take note that investigations on the violence were conducted and the Waki Commission compiled a list of suspected perpetrators that was handed over in “its entirety” to the ICC. This appeared to be in reply to calls by a group of pro-PNU youths who on Wednesday petitioned President KIbaki to trigger action that would see all those named in connection with the violence made public. “The document is clearly a forgery, part of a smear campaign fabricated by the same political interests that earlier forged a letter purporting to be from Prof Anyang’ Nyong’o to the ICC.” This was in reference to a 2011 letter attributed Prof Nyongo, the ODM secretary-general, to the ICC produced by MPs allied to the Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto pushing for the prosecutions. The document is now the subject of a court case. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Uhuru+and+Ruto+ought+to+be+in+jail+says+Raila+/-/1064/1363780/-/1bcbth/-/index.htmlAnother DN hit job and more to come until the paper wrestles its way into officially becoming gutter or otherwise irrelevant press in Kenya designed to feed only a segment of the population aka anti-Railaists or until such a time the paper abandons its obsession with misleading, lying or distorting about anything Raila it prints. Has the paper lost all sense of even pretense at objectivity? Strictly as a matter of journalistic integrity and politics aside, this is one of the worst written pieces of trash one can read in any paper, including gutter press and it would be a waste of time to even bother pointing out why. DN you can do better even in your hit jobs against Raila.
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Post by b6k on Mar 11, 2012 23:11:50 GMT 3
The thing about Jukwaa is that it's a bit of a one track universe. For the most part, all wrongs start & end with Kibaki & his cronies if one were to believe the general trend of most threads.
Has anyone considered another potential outcome of the ICC process? Let's assume for argument's sake that Uhuru & Ruto get so bogged down in ICC litigation, or better yet are convicted say in 2014. President Raila Amollo Odinga has been running the country with a much changed ODM (following Mudavadi's departure before the GE) while under siege from all quarters internally, when the ICC summons from Ms Bensouda eventually arrives at State House after allegations from suspect William Samoei Ruto that RAO was personally involved in the planning & financing of the PEV pan out.
Having watched WSR's reaction today to the Raila statement, the above hypothetical scenario may take place. Ruto's chomping at the bit to take down RAO. He called him not only the main beneficiary of the PEV, but it's architect & mastermind. Those are VERY strong words. This guy is going to sing at The Hague & will unleash his diaries & daily planners.
Adongo, that retirement kiosk in Bondo of yours that you keep talking about, methinks Raila just booked the stall next to yours by being a tad too honest for a change.
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Post by mzee on Mar 11, 2012 23:33:25 GMT 3
B6k, Ruto has already sung like abird at the ICC. I believe that he has run out of Raila songs.
I think that its à high time we called out these thugs.
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Post by johns on Mar 11, 2012 23:40:04 GMT 3
Whoever advises the PM needs to be sacked. Just how does anyone drag the PM into saying this in public? As the say, "some truths are better not told". The reactions will be swift....all I can say! Besides, what moral authority does Raila Odinga have on this issue as the biggest beneficiary of the PEV. He should lead the way to the Hague as others follow. Mwalimumkuu, You can only feign ignorance so far but even that has its limit. Raila Odinga did not become prime minister courtesy of the violence, he became one because he had legitimately been elected by the majority of kenyans as their president but had his victory stolen. Then his supporters made sure that the rigged in president would not govern the country alone since he had stolen that victory and so a compromise had to be found. Now that you know the truth, please pass it to Ruto so he can stop his nonsense.
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 11, 2012 23:42:12 GMT 3
I don't know about the truth behind this statement but here we go... Raila: Arrest Uhuru and Ruto for fuelling anti-ICC sentiment Prime Minister Raila Odinga says Deputy Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta and Eldoret North MP William Ruto should be arrested for using “prayer” rallies to fuel sentiment against their prosecution at the International Criminal Court. Mr Odinga said it was improper that individuals who have been indicted on charges that they sponsored the 2007/8 violence that claimed more than 1,000 lives were operating as free men. “Crimes against humanity are worse than murder. Yet these suspects of crimes against humanity remain free to traverse the country holding ‘prayer meetings’ – while Kenyan suspects of the lesser crime of murder conduct their prayers only behind the forbidding walls of Kamiti Maximum Security Prison, often for years before their cases are heard,” said a blistering statement from the Raila Odinga Secretariat published by the Nation.He said that instead of the suspects directing their energies to grand standing and voicing their innocence in public forums, they should wait to make their arguments in court. “The guilt or innocence of suspected perpetrators is proved through trial, where the facts of the case are examined. No one becomes innocent through public grandstanding and shouting from the rooftops “I am innocent’,” said the statement.“The suspects are not being tried by public opinion. The platform for these suspects to prove their innocence is the ICC. It is the platform they chose. In the meantime, they remain suspects in terrible crimes against Kenyans.” Mr Odinga was responding to claims in Parliament Thursday when MPs allied to Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto tabled what has been described as a forged document alleging that the British government was working with the ICC to have President Kibaki indicted over the violence after he leaves office. (READ: UK accused of seeking Kibaki trial at ICC) The statement was uncharacteristic of the PM who has been mostly restrained in his comments on the charged matter. Yatta MP Charles Kilonzo, who tabled the document on Thursday, also accused the United Kingdom of propping up Mr Odinga and pushing for the detention of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto at the ICC. The document further indicated that the UK wants Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto arrested for allegedly threatening the security of the country through their so-called “prayer rallies” . Since their indictment, the two suspects have been holding political rallies at which they have presented themselves as victims of persecution by powerful foreign forces through the ICC proceedings with the intention of killing their political dreams. In doing so, the two have resorted to hyperbole and hysteria, and many in their communities of followed them. Mr Odinga was on official business in Europe when the allegations were made. Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto, who have indicated their intentions to vie for the presidency, have accused Mr Odinga, their principal competitor, of engineering the ICC proceedings in order to lock them out of the presidential race. Mr Odinga has laughed off the accusations, saying the ICC intervened after MPs — including allies of Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto — failed to set up a local tribunal to try those suspected of having sponsored the violence. Despite the increasing odds against their possible candidatures, the two men, whose trials could begin after May, have maintained they would be on the ballot regardless of the proceedings. The other suspects in the case are Head of Public Service Francis Muthaura who has since stepped aside from his office and journalist Joshua arap Sang. The National Security Intelligence Service and the British High Commission have both described the document as a forgery. The UK has also denied claims that it was backing Mr Odinga’s presidential campaign. “The UK has no interest in any particular outcome in the General Election and is not backing any particular candidates or parties,” the High Commission said Friday. In his statement, Mr Odinga said he appeared to be the target of the “so-called UK Government document introduced into Parliament on Thursday.” He said that those behind the document spoke of the possible indictment of President Kibaki in a desperate attempt to gain public sympathy and drag other individuals into the matter. (READ: UK denies Kibaki ICC plot) “Kenyans watched ICC proceedings closely, and President Kibaki was mentioned nowhere as a perpetrator,” the statement said. He accused proponents of the campaign of defiling Parliament and rallied “all progressive Kenyans of sincerity” to take note that investigations on the violence were conducted and the Waki Commission compiled a list of suspected perpetrators that was handed over in “its entirety” to the ICC. This appeared to be in reply to calls by a group of pro-PNU youths who on Wednesday petitioned President KIbaki to trigger action that would see all those named in connection with the violence made public. “The document is clearly a forgery, part of a smear campaign fabricated by the same political interests that earlier forged a letter purporting to be from Prof Anyang’ Nyong’o to the ICC.” This was in reference to a 2011 letter attributed Prof Nyongo, the ODM secretary-general, to the ICC produced by MPs allied to the Mr Kenyatta and Mr Ruto pushing for the prosecutions. The document is now the subject of a court case. www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Uhuru+and+Ruto+ought+to+be+in+jail+says+Raila+/-/1064/1363780/-/1bcbth/-/index.htmlAnother DN hit job and more to come until the paper wrestles its way into officially becoming gutter or otherwise irrelevant press in Kenya designed to feed only a segment of the population aka anti-Railaists or until such a time the paper abandons its obsession with misleading, lying or distorting about anything Raila it prints. Has the paper lost all sense of even pretense at objectivity? Strictly as a matter of journalistic integrity and politics aside, this is one of the worst written pieces of trash one can read in any paper, including gutter press and it would be a waste of time to even bother pointing out why. DN you can do better even in your hit jobs against Raila. omwenga,The DN is doing what they have been doing very consistently which is to play into the game of Raila is behind the plight of the suspected criminals kind of narrative. We know Raila actually never spoke to the DN and never released a statement. We know the statement was issued by the Raila Odinga Secretariat. We can see that from the Standard version below: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000053883&cid=4¤tPage=1Even the kbc story has no mention of Raila calling for anybody to be arrested. But the DN has to do its job. Here is the KBC version: www.kbc.co.ke/news.asp?nid=75318We know who the DN editorial machine works for and we don't care. They want to cast Raila as the vallian out to lock up Uhuru and company. That is all fine with me. My point is that there is enough baby sitting of the vile characters in our country suspected of mass murder and rape of Kenyans in one of the most terrible crimes ever in the country. It is time they were told the country does not belong to them even if a good chunk of the media like the DN does. The politics of opportunism says, oh just be nice to the killers, oh don't upset them, oh rub their backs and change their socks and you will be seen as a wise leader. Enough of that already. If Kenyans take the battle to the killers and do what they have been doing which is to go around the country preaching the message of taking the killers to hell where they belong, what is wrong with that? The suspected killers are going all over the country claiming anybody who supports the ICC process is working for the devil. Why should the country put up with that? I am tired of people telling Raila, oh be quiet, baby sit these suspected mass killers, even try to see how they can be helped and by goly pray everyday for them and you will be president. We need our country to be free of mass killers and if that means it can be done without Raila as the president, who cares. If Raila is the only one to take these chaps head on and ask them to face those they killed and their families instead of hiding behind falsified nonsense, good for him. It is Raila the suspected killers have been fighting. Does he not have a right to self defense? He does and it is about time. Uhuru now says such statements would lead to incitement and bad blood in the country. Isn't that (incitement) exactly what Uhuru and company has been doing based on their own lies? Has Raila gone around telling Kenyans to denounce the killers and throw them in hell? No. May be he should. If ODM was smart enough to release Raila and tell him to go after the thugs and killers and engage the nation in that discussion and let others deal with the little power games some people would be shaking in their asses from morning to evening. For me I would prefer a country free from the grip of mass murderers even if we end up with some Sonko as our next president as opposed to a fake presidency of Raila Odinga grounded in protecting criminals. The nonsense that one has to pretend that they will not assist in the arrest of convicted killers should that be necessary as a clever tool to get to the presidency makes a mockery of the country itself. Why on earth do we need possible future presidents to promise to perpetuate impunity as a way to get to power? And we call that clever? Please. But yeah, your issue with the DN which seems increasingly to be the officicial propaganda tool for the indicted suspects is right on the money. If you notice the DN so far has not even made any ettempts to show that the forged document produced in the National Assembly as proof of Raila's work with ICC and UK was a complete whack job with spelling errors and all. They reported the nonsense, they have an obligation to look at the evidence of fraud involved there. So they far they are trying to run away from the story probably because it doesn't work that well anymore for Uhuru and company. As a matter of fact it is an outright disaster for their chaps.
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Post by b6k on Mar 11, 2012 23:58:52 GMT 3
B6k, Ruto has already sung like abird at the ICC. I believe that he has run out of Raila songs. I think that its à high time we called out these thugs. Mzee, I missed the bulk of the Ruto hearings so I'm not sure whether he mentioned Raila directly or not. I did see Uhuru specifically mention Raila by name & his defence team tried to push the buck to Raila for sure. What I'm saying is not so much just an "ask Raila Odinga" sort of response from Ruto but a Samson option that will take not only Raila out, but WSR himself along with him (unless he decides to plea bargain). It will be more of a "on this day Raila & I did A, B, C, D" kind of damning testimony. Samoei was looking peeved enough to take such drastic action.
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Post by Omwenga on Mar 11, 2012 23:59:11 GMT 3
The thing about Jukwaa is that it's a bit of a one track universe. For the most part, all wrongs start & end with Kibaki & his cronies if one were to believe the general trend of most threads. Has anyone considered another potential outcome of the ICC process? Let's assume for argument's sake that Uhuru & Ruto get so bogged down in ICC litigation, or better yet are convicted say in 2014. President Raila Amollo Odinga has been running the country with a much changed ODM (following Mudavadi's departure before the GE) while under siege from all quarters internally, when the ICC summons from Ms Bensouda eventually arrives at State House after allegations from suspect William Samoei Ruto that RAO was personally involved in the planning & financing of the PEV pan out. Having watched WSR's reaction today to the Raila statement, the above hypothetical scenario may take place. Ruto's chomping at the bit to take down RAO. He called him not only the main beneficiary of the PEV, but it's architect & mastermind. Those are VERY strong words. This guy is going to sing at The Hague & will unleash his diaries & daily planners. Adongo, that retirement kiosk in Bondo of yours that you keep talking about, methinks Raila just booked the stall next to yours by being a tad too honest for a change. This type of reasoning and defense may work with certain segments of the population and especially the unwary or uninformed but it's invariably always laughed out of court if a defendant is advised by anyone, let alone a lawyer to raise it in any court. As one who has maintained from the very beginning that Ruto will ultimately walk from the Hague, I am yet to write my final part of a series on him in which I would flesh out more what I have also been suggesting and that is, Ruto walks only if he mounts a certain defense I have not even heard anyone mention, yet I have heard or seen plenty from him that would surely have him nailed. Ruto can say or he wishes to say as to how he plans to get RAO to the Hague but two little facts he should know: (1) it is never a defense that one is not guilty because others he believes also committed the same crime have not been charged and (2) the Rome Statute is clear as to how someone ends up charged at the Hague and the only person charged with the responsibility of initiating such proceedings has repeatedly said he found no evidence linking Raila to PEV and that's really all that matters no matter how much Ruto and others dream and wish the public to believe otherwise. Whole books and movies have been made about jail-room confessions and "confessions" and what impact they have in the administration of justice and prosecutors are always playing one defendant against another in co-defendant or related cases to see who can rat out the other one faster but the ones with any prosecutor would tell you there are at least two essential elements in such ratting out if it were to have any value to the prosecution and therefore a benefit to the accused and these are (1) timing and (2) corroboration. Lying is presumed, of course and this includes manufactured evidence by the confessors the prosecution must always ferret out. Anyone mistaken to believe prosecutors are idiots who would simply file charges against anyone simply because someone says they did such and such simply need to inform themselves a bit about the rule of law and especially criminal law where there is more at stake with the mere charging of a person than your run of the mill civil lawsuits which may be dismissed as a nuisance but no long term harm. Same can't be said about criminal prosecution, especially at the ICC level where meticulous steps are taken to make sure only those who should be charged are charged and without going further into this, once charged and one is acquitted, it doesn't follow that therefore they are innocent. Rather than wasting time on irrelevancies, Ruto and the other suspects are better advised to take it seriously that they face serious criminal offenses against humanity and prepare to defend themselves rather than giving the ICC more reasons to convict them were the cases to be close calls.
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Post by Omwenga on Mar 12, 2012 0:18:41 GMT 3
Another DN hit job and more to come until the paper wrestles its way into officially becoming gutter or otherwise irrelevant press in Kenya designed to feed only a segment of the population aka anti-Railaists or until such a time the paper abandons its obsession with misleading, lying or distorting about anything Raila it prints. Has the paper lost all sense of even pretense at objectivity? Strictly as a matter of journalistic integrity and politics aside, this is one of the worst written pieces of trash one can read in any paper, including gutter press and it would be a waste of time to even bother pointing out why. DN you can do better even in your hit jobs against Raila. omwenga,The DN is doing what they have been doing very consistently which is to play into the game of Raila is behind the plight of the suspected criminals kind of narrative. We know Raila actually never spoke to the DN and never released a statement. We know the statement was issued by the Raila Odinga Secretariat. We can see that from the Standard version below: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000053883&cid=4¤tPage=1That is all fine with me. My point is that there is enough baby sitting of the vile characters in our country suspected of mass murder and rape of Kenyans in one of the most terrible crimes ever in the country. The politics of opportunism says, oh just be nice to the killers, oh don't upset them, oh rub their backs and change their socks and you will be seen as a wise leader. Enough of that already. If Kenyans take the battle to the killers and do what they have been doing which is to go around the country preaching the message of taking the killers to hell where they belong, what is wrong with that? The suspected killers are going all over the country claiming anybody who supports the ICC process is working for the devil. Why should the country put up with that? I am tired of people telling Raila, oh be quiet, baby sit these suspected mass killers, even try to see how they can be helped and by goly pray everyday for them and you will be president. We need our country to be free of mass killers and if that means it can be done without Raila as the president, who cares. If Raila is the only one to take these chaps head on and ask them to face those they killed and their families instead of hiding behind falsified nonsense, good for him. It is Raila the suspected killers have been fighting. Does he not have a right to self defense? He does and it is about time. Uhuru now says such statements would lead to incitement and bad blood in the country. Isn't that (incitement) exactly what Uhuru and company has been doing based on their own lies? Has Raila gone around telling Kenyans to denounce the killers and throw them in hell? No. May be he should. If ODM was smart enough to release Raila and tell him to go after the thugs and killers and engage the nation in that discussion and let others deal with the little power games some people would be shaking in their asses from morning to evening. For me I would prefer a country free from the grip of mass murderers even if we end up with some Sonko as our next president as opposed to a fake presidency of Raila Odinga grounded in protecting criminals. The nonsense that one has to pretend that they will not assist in the arrest of convicted killers should that be necessary as a clever tool to get to the presidency makes a mockery of the country itself. Why on earth do we need possible future presidents to promise to perpetuate impunity as a way to get to power? And we call that clever? Please. But yeah, your issue with the DN which seems increasingly to be the officicial propaganda tool for the indicted suspects is right on the money. If you notice the DN so far has not even made any ettempts to show that the forged document produced in the National Assembly as proof of Raila's work with ICC and UK was a complete whack job with spelling errors and all. They reported the nonsense, they have an obligation to look at the evidence of fraud involved there. So they far they are trying to run away from the story probably because it doesn't work that well anymore for Uhuru and company. As a matter of fact it is an outright disaster for their chaps. Adongo,I hear what you are saying and you make a lot of sense. I both laughed and sympathized with Prof. Anyang' Nyong'o yesterday when he essentially said he had had it with the media's constant spinning things in the negative and this is where I am coming from in my response here as well, especially as it relates to DN. I'll also try and find out about this statement which seems to me to have been a response to the forgeries produced in Parliament the other day and corresponding lies uttered in support thereof but parts of it have been leaked to the media.
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Post by b6k on Mar 12, 2012 0:19:39 GMT 3
Omwenga, for godssakes do not post your how Ruto can walk missive until 72 hours before his verdict is due. Let him sweat it out! Besides why bother giving his defence team pro bono advice on the internet?
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Post by furaha on Mar 12, 2012 0:35:43 GMT 3
Has anyone considered another potential outcome of the ICC process? Let's assume for argument's sake that Uhuru & Ruto get so bogged down in ICC litigation, or better yet are convicted say in 2014. President Raila Amollo Odinga has been running the country with a much changed ODM (following Mudavadi's departure before the GE) while under siege from all quarters internally, when the ICC summons from Ms Bensouda eventually arrives at State House after allegations from suspect William Samoei Ruto that RAO was personally involved in the planning & financing of the PEV pan out. b6k, I have no problem with such an outcome. Let the law follow its course. But your scenario begs the question why Ruto has thusfar not been successful in trying to implicate Raila. If he has solid evidence why would he wait to present it until after the elections? I think he would want to present it as fast as he can, also in order to exonerate himself. Why has he not done so yet? If you have the answer, please let us know. And we have to bear in mind that there are four who according to Ocampo bear the greatest responsibility. They are now the Ekaterina 4. But there are many, many others who also bear responsibility and grave responsibility. While their crimes may fall short of the high treshhold of crimes against humanity, I hope and expect that the trial proceedings will expose them as participants who aided and abetted those now charged. And I think that is part of the reason for the present circus, the lies and fabrications. Many of those rallying around Uhuruto know what they did before and during PEV. They will go very far to try to stop the trials because they know that they themselves will also be exposed.And I expect that these will be folks in both the PNU and ODM camps. That is how it should be. And let the DPP and the judiciary get ready to try to these people locally with complete disregard for political affiliation. You are wrong to assume that everyone who contributes here is either pro PNU or pro ODM. Try to get used to the idea that for many of us seeing justice done is the overriding concern. furaha
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 12, 2012 0:38:06 GMT 3
omwenga & othersNow we have the NSIS saying all these are works of criminal alements trying to manipulate the ICC process. So when is the DPP starting the investigations or these are official crimes of state friendly elements? It is amazing to hear that the NSIS says they know of all these forged letters and they warn the government about them and that is all. This is the same thing that happened with the PEV. The NSIS says they knew everything that was cooking and all that could be done was to give reports later at the the Waki Commission. Have we learnt a damn thing yet? You can't just let criminals run amok and wait to give reports. It will be too late then. We have conmen forging dangerous letters invoking the name of the president of the country, invoking the name of the PM of the country, formenting hatred between Kenyans, conspiring to malign foreign countries that are our friends and even producing such forgeries in parliament and it is all OK. Are these not criminal acts with possible terrible consequences? Yes they are. These are not prayers. They are designs for a national meltdown to protect the suspected mass killers. If there is one thing we need to talk about it is the issue of the government of Kenya doing its job at least of investigating and taking action in such criminal activities. At least they can do that, or may be not. Here we go: www.the-star.co.ke/national/national/66235-nsis-dismiss-uk-letter-as-forgeryNSIS DISMISS 'UK LETTER' AS FORGERY Saturday, 10 March 2012 00:02 BY WALTER MENYA THE National Security Intelligence Service advised government earlier this week that alleged British government documents due to be tabled in Parliament were forged. The alleged restricted briefing document said the UK was planning to have President Kibaki indicted at the Hague and Deputy Prime Prime Minister Uhuru Kenyatta and Eldoret North MP William Ruto arrested in April. The documents were tabled in Parliament by Yatta MP Charles Kilonzo on Thursday. “The NSIS Director called yesterday (Thursday) and said they knew of the existence of these letters and confirmed that they were fake,” the source at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs disclosed.The documents contain multiple spelling errors including spelling the name of the British High Commissioner as 'Peter Tibb' instead of Peter Tibber; Somalia ambassador as 'Matt Bough' instead of Matt Baugh; 'demenish' instead of diminish; ‘prosection’ instead of prosecution; 'influencial' instead of influential; ‘cooperations’ instead of cooperation; and many other spelling and grammatical errors. "A document like this would have gone through at least 20 people before being released. It is impossible that any Foreign Office document could contain such elementary errors," said a British diplomat yesterday. The document was allegedly authored by Chloe Hamborg, head of Horn of Africa Strategy at FCO, and apparently addressed to senior officials including Foreign Secretary William Hague. The second letter was allegedly written on February 6, 2012 by Kenya Desk Officer Edward Inglett yet he left that post in 2011. It also contains spelling and grammatical errors. Yesterday sent an official protest note to the Kenya government over the forged documents. "The policy of Her Majesty’s Government is not to comment on leaked documents. However, having seen copies of the documents in question, we would like to assure the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that these are not genuine. Evidence of this includes both the misleading and implausible content and a plethora of spelling and grammatical mistakes," states the note from High Commissioner Peter Tibber. "We are concerned that this is a smear campaign which aims to destabilise our bilateral relations and to damage the political atmosphere ahead of the Kenyan elections. As the British Government has made clear in both public and private, the UK has no interest in any particular outcome in the General Election and is not backing any particular candidates or parties. We support transparent, credible, peaceful elections which produce results that the people of Kenya, of whatever political persuasion, accept as the legitimate expression of the will of the people. We are and will remain non partisan," the protest note insisted. The protest note arrived as it emerged that an MP had filed a notice of motion seeking to discuss the role of UK in the ICC process as well as the next election. Yesterday Kilonzo said the errors in the letters are normal and promised to unleash more documents in due course. “It is not for you to determine whether or not it has typos. That’s normal,” the Yatta legislator said. “Let the UK respond to the contents but I can bet they will not grant you an opportunity to question them,” he said claiming that the documents had been leaked from the British High Commission. Yesterday Ndung’u Wainaina, Executive Director of International Center for Conflict and Policy said the documents were a forgery by an MP and the presidential hopeful in their battles with the UK and US. “He (the MP) has been able to manufacture so many documents. So when I saw the letter yesterday, I laughed. My take is that this is an extension of his war with the British. It is a game plan,” said Ndung’u.According to Ndung’u, the MP has consolidated several MPs whom he wants to sponsor in the next election and was using them to help fight his wars. “By including President Kibaki’s name in the forgery, they knew they would score big against the British but all they managed were convoluted arguments centred on severing diplomatic ties with the British,” Ndung’u observed.
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Post by Titchaz on Mar 12, 2012 0:44:26 GMT 3
I want Agwambo to state categorically that he wants Ouru and Ruto detained. Because they deserve it, no need to dilly-dally and let The PNU mouthpiece daily Nation do the talking for them. It's clear they wanted a response from Uhuruto who's plan now is to destabilize Kenya politically. They've started doing that by forging diplomatic documents. Nothing to fear Agwambo twende kazi. deyiengs,Welcome back ndugu... ;D ;D ;D ...habari za madayz?
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