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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 18:17:48 GMT 3
RR, what substantive issues? Elderkin's article is about The Protocols & the "fact" that Raila is a latter day Gandhi, Martin Luther King, or Aung San Suu Kyi. I addressed the Kilonzo dossier earlier by reserving comment until the British under-secretary comes to Kenya. Everything else is neither here nor there. As to comparing Raila with the 3 leaders, even Richard Branson had to backtrack midsentence when he compared Raila to Mandela. Some ridiculous utterances simply don't warrant any comment. In bold - you have explained your attitude. Scurrilous attacks at women are neither here nor there. If you did not find substantive issues in the article, why did you choose to launch a sexist attack? Is that what you do when you cannot decipher substance? In terms of calling for peaceful mass action: That is what Gandhi did. It is what Aung San Suu Kyi did. It is what Martin Luther King did. Whether or not you accept that does not change the fact that they did it. It is also what Raila did faced with dictatorial clampdown. Does this mean Raila is Gandhi, King or San Suu Kyi? Of course NOT. The objective of the comparison is to draw attention to the circumstances and to the FACT that peaceful mass action is a legitimate expression of democratic protest. I will also say this: after reflecting on this article, I now can see it crystal clear the indefatigable Raila makes enormous effort on Kenya's behalf. People underestimate and hardly credit Raila for many things we see but I now learn slowly that a lot of progress on economic and social fronts have his imprint on them: I can't argue with this. Yo b6k RR is right. You pulled the oldest patriarchal trick in the book in your attempts at discrediting and silencing our beloved Sarah Elderkin. Keep trying! Work harder at it ! I was waiting for you to start saying that she is white, like we haven't noticed. I don't know about you, but some of us can have sexual relations and still think, clearly that is! I'm waiting to see your reply to jakaswanga on this one. Or did you and I've missed it? And don't forget that if you start trashing people because of their sex life everyone has sex even those you support. You just think about how juicy it could all get. Juicy enough to entertain us into the next decade. ;D ;D
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Post by b6k on Mar 19, 2012 18:51:05 GMT 3
RR, what substantive issues? Elderkin's article is about The Protocols & the "fact" that Raila is a latter day Gandhi, Martin Luther King, or Aung San Suu Kyi. I addressed the Kilonzo dossier earlier by reserving comment until the British under-secretary comes to Kenya. Everything else is neither here nor there. As to comparing Raila with the 3 leaders, even Richard Branson had to backtrack midsentence when he compared Raila to Mandela. Some ridiculous utterances simply don't warrant any comment. In bold - you have explained your attitude. Scurrilous attacks at women are neither here nor there. If you did not find substantive issues in the article, why did you choose to launch a sexist attack? Is that what you do when you cannot decipher substance? In terms of calling for peaceful mass action: That is what Gandhi did. It is what Aung San Suu Kyi did. It is what Martin Luther King did. Whether or not you accept that does not change the fact that they did it. It is also what Raila did faced with dictatorial clampdown. Does this mean Raila is Gandhi, King or San Suu Kyi? Of course NOT. The objective of the comparison is to draw attention to the circumstances and to the FACT that peaceful mass action is a legitimate expression of democratic protest. I will also say this: after reflecting on this article, I now can see it crystal clear the indefatigable Raila makes enormous effort on Kenya's behalf. People underestimate and hardly credit Raila for many things we see but I now learn slowly that a lot of progress on economic and social fronts have his imprint on them: I can't argue with this. RR, Elderkin is too close to the subject to be objective. There's a reason why wives aren't considered the best witnesses against their spouses. The Raila as a man of peace doesn't fly. His objective was to make KE ungovernable as he waited for Kibaki to be dethroned. Unfortunately the international community decided a Solomonic split was the lesser of two evils. As for the PM's itinerary, maybe he has a thing for per diem. Those trips do come with perks after all
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Post by b6k on Mar 19, 2012 19:08:34 GMT 3
In bold - you have explained your attitude. Scurrilous attacks at women are neither here nor there. If you did not find substantive issues in the article, why did you choose to launch a sexist attack? Is that what you do when you cannot decipher substance? In terms of calling for peaceful mass action: That is what Gandhi did. It is what Aung San Suu Kyi did. It is what Martin Luther King did. Whether or not you accept that does not change the fact that they did it. It is also what Raila did faced with dictatorial clampdown. Does this mean Raila is Gandhi, King or San Suu Kyi? Of course NOT. The objective of the comparison is to draw attention to the circumstances and to the FACT that peaceful mass action is a legitimate expression of democratic protest. I will also say this: after reflecting on this article, I now can see it crystal clear the indefatigable Raila makes enormous effort on Kenya's behalf. People underestimate and hardly credit Raila for many things we see but I now learn slowly that a lot of progress on economic and social fronts have his imprint on them: I can't argue with this. Yo b6k RR is right. You pulled the oldest patriarchal trick in the book in your attempts at discrediting and silencing our beloved Sarah Elderkin. Keep trying! Work harder at it ! I was waiting for you to start saying that she is white, like we haven't noticed. I don't know about you, but some of us can have sexual relations and still think, clearly that is! I'm waiting to see your reply to jakaswanga on this one. Or did you and I've missed it? And don't forget that if you start trashing people because of their sex life everyone has sex even those you support. You just think about how juicy it could all get. Juicy enough to entertain us into the next decade. ;D ;D KK, whenever you greet someone on Jukwaa with the salutation "Yo!", then you're about to come down on them like a ton of bricks. You haven't disappointed . What does patriarchy have to do with my objection of the Elderkin school of thought that Raila was, is, & will ever be the best thing that happened to KE? I don't buy it & never will. As for her being white, now you're really off the deep end. Your point on sex is valid only if those you assume I support are getting down with members of the press. I consider Jakaswanga my blood brother on Jukwaa for several reasons. He was the first I responded to when I allegedly took a stand for patriarchy
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2012 20:33:42 GMT 3
Yo b6k RR is right. You pulled the oldest patriarchal trick in the book in your attempts at discrediting and silencing our beloved Sarah Elderkin. Keep trying! Work harder at it ! I was waiting for you to start saying that she is white, like we haven't noticed. I don't know about you, but some of us can have sexual relations and still think, clearly that is! I'm waiting to see your reply to jakaswanga on this one. Or did you and I've missed it? And don't forget that if you start trashing people because of their sex life everyone has sex even those you support. You just think about how juicy it could all get. Juicy enough to entertain us into the next decade. ;D ;D KK, whenever you greet someone on Jukwaa with the salutation "Yo!", then you're about to come down on them like a ton of bricks. You haven't disappointed . What does patriarchy have to do with my objection of the Elderkin school of thought that Raila was, is, & will ever be the best thing that happened to KE? I don't buy it & never will. As for her being white, now you're really off the deep end. Your point on sex is valid only if those you assume I support are getting down with members of the press. I consider Jakaswanga my blood brother on Jukwaa for several reasons. He was the first I responded to when I allegedly took a stand for patriarchy b6k hello how are you? Is that a better salutation for you? This is what you said about Sarah: On Elderkin's part it was unfortunate she made reference to Raila's "energy", "stamina" & "back-breaking" hard work given the allegations to the intimate nature of her relationship with one RAO. Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=6720&page=1#ixzz1paJHrXtOClearly, Sarah wasn't talking about sex when she made the above observations. Rather she was speaking about Raila's work ethic. And clearly, you were when you (let me repeat) tried to discredit her using her sexual life. And to break it down further for you since you're having such a hard time grasping what I'm saying, it is misogynist to dismiss women using their sexuality rather than countering their arguments. It an old patriarchal tool. That is what I'm saying dear old blood brother of jakaswanga.
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Post by roughrider on Mar 19, 2012 20:34:22 GMT 3
In bold - you have explained your attitude. Scurrilous attacks at women are neither here nor there. If you did not find substantive issues in the article, why did you choose to launch a sexist attack? Is that what you do when you cannot decipher substance? In terms of calling for peaceful mass action: That is what Gandhi did. It is what Aung San Suu Kyi did. It is what Martin Luther King did. Whether or not you accept that does not change the fact that they did it. It is also what Raila did faced with dictatorial clampdown. Does this mean Raila is Gandhi, King or San Suu Kyi? Of course NOT. The objective of the comparison is to draw attention to the circumstances and to the FACT that peaceful mass action is a legitimate expression of democratic protest. I will also say this: after reflecting on this article, I now can see it crystal clear the indefatigable Raila makes enormous effort on Kenya's behalf. People underestimate and hardly credit Raila for many things we see but I now learn slowly that a lot of progress on economic and social fronts have his imprint on them: I can't argue with this. RR, Elderkin is too close to the subject to be objective. There's a reason why wives aren't considered the best witnesses against their spouses. The Raila as a man of peace doesn't fly. His objective was to make KE ungovernable as he waited for Kibaki to be dethroned. Unfortunately the international community decided a Solomonic split was the lesser of two evils. As for the PM's itinerary, maybe he has a thing for per diem. Those trips do come with perks after all Hehehe - I think I am coming to the end of this. You simply cannot explain why you launched a sexist attack on Sarah Elderkin because of what she wrote. I gave you several chances to redeem yourself but you have failed terribly. Sometimes it is easier to say, I was wrong to attack her with sexual innuendo based on 'rumours'. It was grossly unfair and I regret my words. Often, it is that simple. So in your world being ‘too close’ to a subject makes one subjective? That is a sweeping if meaningless statement. In academia, the closer you are to a subject, the more you are considered specialist. You waffle too much – why don’t you expose that alleged subjectivity instead of merely declaring it? Please explain what ‘too close’ means in your world. Is it the sexual stuff that you have been heavy on? I can put some of your statements to ignorance of what really happened around the PEV period. It is not in my place to educate you. It is interesting that all you saw in the quoted text was an 'itinerary' and 'per diem' opportunities.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 19, 2012 20:54:25 GMT 3
Do you folks know who listverse.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/ianpaisley-tm.jpg?w=286&h=350[/img] the Rev. Ian Paisley is? Probably the most right wing politician from Northern Ireland. Get this excerpt: Ian Paisley is a Northern Ireland politician and leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) as well as being the Moderator (leader) of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, as well as being a member of British Parliament and of the Northern Ireland Assembly for the constituency of North Antrim. Like Chick, Paisley is well known for his vicious anti-Catholicism.
Paisley frequently refers to Roman Catholicism as “popery” and founded the European Institute of Protestant Studies to promote his own particular brand of anti-Catholicism. In 1988, he attacked Pope John Paul II at the European Parliament (of which he was a member), shouting “I Denounce you as the AntiChrist!” at the Pontiff while holding up a sign accusing him of being the Antichrist, causing him to have to be manhandled out of the hemicycle by several other MEPs. In 1963, Paisley organized a protest against the lowering of flags following the death of Pope John XXIII. He also stated that seat no. 666 in the European Parliament is reserved for the Antichrist and praised Slobodan Milosevic for fighting a “Vatican conspiracy” to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church.SOURCE:listverse.com/2010/02/12/10-terrible-bigots-in-modern-history/Check out these links: www.bookrags.com/biography/ian-k-paisley/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Force_%28Northern_Ireland%29www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953237,00.html
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 19, 2012 21:04:04 GMT 3
Ndugu Oloo: You might want to clarify that both the father and the son are called Ian Paisley and that some of the links you have are actually about the father, whereas it is the son who wrote that article. The son has always managed to get all sorts of media to carry his stuff simply on the basis of who his father is; he never fails to remind people of that.
The son's main claim to fame is a short stint as junior minister, which stint ended when it was found he had two government jobs, one of which involved working as a ghost employee in a position to do with the father.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 19, 2012 21:07:17 GMT 3
Thanks for the clarification.
oo
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Post by b6k on Mar 19, 2012 21:51:26 GMT 3
KK/RR, shooting the messenger is allowed if it's conventional wisdom that a reporter is unabashedly in a politician's camp. Haven't Jukwaaists dismissed Kwendo Opanga's articles for passed alleged misdeeds of being on someone's payroll? RR, you may believe you know all there is to know about PEV but you ain't seen nothing yet.
Paisley jnr should differentiate himself from senior somehow. I was taken aback that the old geezer could find Kenya on a map until I read the postscript after the article. That said, OO would his being right wing necessarily make his views wrong? Do we condemn junior for the sins of the father? His article seemed balanced enough on its own merit & the tactics used by the British to keep the Irish bogged down in the courts shouldn't be dismissed outright. Successful strategies in one place are often copy-pasted in another. That is how empire is won.
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 19, 2012 22:16:42 GMT 3
Both father and son should be "approached with caution". They have such a fondness for finding British conspiracies behind every bush that one wonders where they when they ever get the time to do anything else. Do some homework on the son before you assume he is anything other than his father's real son. Hmmmm .... On second thoughts, they have managed to make careers and good livelihoods out of "its the Brit's fault"; so they might be onto something.
It's actually something of a large-scale version of what some of our local politicians are doing, which makes Raila indispensable to them: I got caught for crimes? Raila. Problems with the UN, World bank, etc.? Raila. Money problems? Raila. Drought in the land? Raila. One has diarrhea? Raila. Rila, Raila, Raila. Talk about The Real Makmende!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 20, 2012 4:34:45 GMT 3
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Mukwhasi
Full Member
Justice will live on ..
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Post by Mukwhasi on Mar 20, 2012 5:09:42 GMT 3
The same people who cry sovereinty all the time are now the same ones drooling because a mzungu has written a shallow article on the goings on in kenya ,note that he does not rope ruto in on his allegation ,Raila did not order for anyone to be arrested he only reminded the suspects not to take their freedom for granted because under kenyan laws murder and rape are not bailable offences and the two are accused of more heinous crimes in the name of crimes agianst humanity .I think mr Paisley will agree that kenya is such a country where "the government is hostage to one section of society" and that is exactly why we need these warlords to be tried at the Hague.Mr uhuru's supporters have never claimed that there boy is innocent of what he has been accused of ,they go around calling him a hero who saved the day ,well two wrongs dont make a right and i hope Jeff Koinange will be ready to testify that "mumgiki stopped the madness",Ruto on the other hand has been caught with pants down and now the mwizi has been mulikwad!washindwe tena sana Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6720#ixzz1pcPgnQOe"
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Post by kasuku on Mar 20, 2012 12:56:13 GMT 3
I have read enough about him to even waste a minute reading what he was given to publish about Raila. The people here praising the “WHITE MP” (sounds like you would fall on the ground in front of him) ... do you honestly think for a minute that Mr. Paisley cares about Kenyans or knows who Raila is? Possibly he has a piece of land in Kenya or was promised one and that’s as far as he would care about …. Hold it! I have an explanation why i pointed out the “WHITE MP” Uhuru and Co think that the common Mwananchi is a primitive goat herdsman who is intimidated by the White skin. They believe that a word of a white man is feared and thus, I truly believe that they would pay one a lot of money to put an Article in a newspaper. My goodness, a big part of Kenya has being sleeping all this 50 years since in depended if there are many Kenyans thinking this way.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 20, 2012 16:26:31 GMT 3
The hypocrisy of Jukwaa knows no bounds!!!
Now Ian Paisley is being painted as a "White Man" Uhuru/Ruto supporters are worshipping!
It would appear our love for the white man is only good (and believable!) if he says something that seems to support our point of view.
Just look at how many believe the British High Commission when it says some dossier is a fake wnd when another Briton seems to suggest the same might be true, his character and acti-catholicism is highlighted! Is it not strange that the same people sucking up to the BHC refuse to support a key Unionist in N Ireland who shouts for the same crown upon which the BHC disclaims the dossier???
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Post by OtishOtish on Mar 20, 2012 18:58:11 GMT 3
The hypocrisy of Jukwaa knows no bounds!!! Now Ian Paisley is being painted as a "White Man" Uhuru/Ruto supporters are worshipping! It would appear our love for the white man is only good (and believable!) if he says something that seems to support our point of view. Just look at how many believe the British High Commission when it says some dossier is a fake wnd when another Briton seems to suggest the same might be true, his character and acti-catholicism is highlighted! Is it not strange that the same people sucking up to the BHC refuse to support a key Unionist in N Ireland who shouts for the same crown upon which the BHC disclaims the dossier??? When I was younger I had a great deal of problems with religous teachings, despite my yearnings to the contrary. I remember feeling some slight envy for those who simply refused to let facts, reality, and common sense get in the way of what they wished to believe.
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Post by mank on Mar 21, 2012 3:26:46 GMT 3
[/img] the Rev. Ian Paisley is? Probably the most right wing politician from Northern Ireland. Get this excerpt: Ian Paisley is a Northern Ireland politician and leader of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) as well as being the Moderator (leader) of the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster, as well as being a member of British Parliament and of the Northern Ireland Assembly for the constituency of North Antrim. Like Chick, Paisley is well known for his vicious anti-Catholicism.
Paisley frequently refers to Roman Catholicism as “popery” and founded the European Institute of Protestant Studies to promote his own particular brand of anti-Catholicism. In 1988, he attacked Pope John Paul II at the European Parliament (of which he was a member), shouting “I Denounce you as the AntiChrist!” at the Pontiff while holding up a sign accusing him of being the Antichrist, causing him to have to be manhandled out of the hemicycle by several other MEPs. In 1963, Paisley organized a protest against the lowering of flags following the death of Pope John XXIII. He also stated that seat no. 666 in the European Parliament is reserved for the Antichrist and praised Slobodan Milosevic for fighting a “Vatican conspiracy” to destroy the Serbian Orthodox Church.SOURCE:listverse.com/2010/02/12/10-terrible-bigots-in-modern-history/Check out these links: www.bookrags.com/biography/ian-k-paisley/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Force_%28Northern_Ireland%29www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953237,00.html[/size][/quote] OO, I have not been paying much attention to the claim by the British MP, just as I have not been paying much attention to the many stories that are cluttered all over about the ICC cases. I find these stories to be unworthy dead weight because we cannot tell fact from fiction in any of them. I wait to pay attention to what the ICC decides is worth the attention. On your posting here though, I am curious. Are you suggesting that the background information you have posted above is enough basis to dismiss what the British MP alleges? If that's the case, I would disagree. There are enough reasonable people with very dark views of the Catholic Church - with reasons! Having disdainful theories about the Catholic church may be about the Catholic Church rather than the bearer of the theories. But even if its about the bearer, what's the connection between such a trait and an allegation of mischief by Britain in the Kenyan case? Besides, the guy behind the clips was born in 1926. What's really the point you are trying to make? Does the man's picture really tell us about the man himself, or is it about the mind of the author of the article you sourced it from? Is this the picture someone would author if the story was an honest depiction of Paisley? What impression do we make in our minds when we see similarly gory pictures of Obama, or Raila (as often posted by Corsi's)? Is it a message about Obama or Raila we as analytical people see , or a message about the authors of the pictures? I do not know the first thing about the allegation the MP makes, but I think your way of approaching it is unfortunate.
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Post by kasuku on Mar 21, 2012 16:50:42 GMT 3
While at it. Let’s call a spade a spade. The Kenyan society is widely brain washed and who brain washed them? And which color was the foreign missionary when he came to our country?
No matter how high educated many Kenyans are, no matter how wealthy (Uhuru) are, no matter how travelled many Kenyans are, mostly are suffering from Inferiority complex when they are confronted by the foreign white man.
This is not the fault of the foreign white man. It is a problem with the Kenyan who refuses to free himself from his Uncle Tom identity.
By obviously paying some Foreign MPs to plant some articles in Foreign Newspapers, where they yet again accuse RAILA for their being called to justice in the ICC for crimes against Humanity, and after the “Prayer” rallies have being exhausted, the Ocampo 4 with their Inferiority Complexes - and Uncle Tom behaviors are turning attention to mimesis of national disasters, trying to confuse the society with yet some more meaningless words. Again and again mentioning that the Presidential election contest between them and Raila is the reason that took them to the ICC, it is obviously an attempt to brainwash the pev memories from the mwananchi.
But imagine that Kenyans aren’t stupid and know where the truth lies. They just don’t want to touch it. It is too hot. No one wants to take responsibility for it. Again a big case of Inferiority complex confused with loyalty (How can you be loyal to a leader who kills your children?)
Kenyans have got to free themselves from this Inferiority Complex that has become a culture in the country. Freedom comes from hard work. Hard working with one self comes with taking responsibility and that’s where Kenyans weakness lies.
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Post by amadain on Mar 23, 2012 5:15:32 GMT 3
A member of the British Parliament has accused the International Criminal Court (ICC) of being used by foreign governments — including his own — to clear the way for Prime Minister Raila Odinga to ascend to power.
Irishman Ian Paisley cautions that because of the ICC intervention, Kenya was heading towardls a “dangerous impasse”. I've just come across this thread now so have yet to read through the hefty text, but allow me to just correct this opening statement at least. Ian Paisley is not an Irish man. He is British.
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Post by Dumekenya on Mar 23, 2012 9:42:24 GMT 3
Please take your head out of the gutter. I credit you with maturity so don't disappoint me. It is only Mashada where anything goes. I don't believe that is where you belong. Here, my experience is that we make attempts at decorum, accuracy and balance. It is so easy to attack somebody that you do not know with false hood and innuendo. It is even easier to attack that person if she is a woman by questioning her morals and character. Generally this kind of sleazy, misogynist attacks are the product of insecure males confronted by intelligent women. I WELCOME any JUKWAAIST who has a CLEAR WELL ARTICULATED ARGUMENT WITH ANY FACTS OR ARGUMENTS raised by SARAH in her piece. BUT I reject SCURRILOUS baseless attacks that have little to do with reality and more to do with inferiority and insecurity. RR, it's all well & good throw the mysogynist tag around but I see Makau Mutua attacked every other week on Jukwaa & no one says it's because he's a man. Biased & skewed reporting is clear for what it is. Propaganda. Imagine if it turned out that Oprah had had an affair with Obama back in her early Chicago days? Wouldn't that put her passionate campaigning for him in '08 in a new light? A media personality who's had a personal relationship with a politician whose agenda they then keep highlighting is compromised. Period! You also fail to appreciate the irony in Elderkin waxing lyrical about everybody going on about Raila, Raila, Raila & er, Raila yet week after week all SHE writes about is Raila! Just because her missives paint him in a positive light doesn't make it any less Raila this, Raila that. I even get amazed when people believe Muthamaki isn't worthy of stepping on Jaramogi's compound, yet the same group do not even bat an eyelid when accepting the same Muthamaki's stolen blood money when he sponsors their local FC. Irony & hypocrisy galore! Let us be factual and truthful. Sometimes people need to learn how to moderate their vents. I mean is there something wrong with a section of Kenyan political divide. If you hate me just late it stop at that and when i speak the truth just accept it as it is. Vilification of facts and truths will only make matters worse for the opiners. Be careful you will be held accountable every bit of letters that proceedeth from thy mouth.
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