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Post by Omwenga on Apr 9, 2012 17:24:07 GMT 3
This thread is a good example of what is wrong with history-starved interlocutors on Jukwaa (this excludes Akinyi, Firaha, , Omwenga). It all makes me believe that OO has, without knowing, stuffed Jukwaa with high school minds totally incapable of informed reflection. I would not mind the level of discourse if the vitriol against jakoyo came from the usual foils ( kamalet, Noway, mwalimkoo, njuguna.. Daniel waweru, etc) on this forum, but this........?? I suppose it would have been OK for Midiwo to go to Iteere and/or Gichangi and whisper into their hearing the insidious intent of some leaders against the person of the PM. had he done so, I can assure you Iteere and co would have come out with details of the alleged plot after a through investigation. Nonsense ! and jakwasanga you are really a disappointment on this. Just read somewhere that even after Jakoyo had had a rendezvous with Bondo police over this matter, a contingent (unknown to Bondo Police) invaded his home. so what if OO chooses to stuff jukwaa with high school minds? Are you questioning his intelligence too? what exactly have i said about midiwo that irks you? AINA Hehehe. Akinyi, You were excluded from those with "high school minds" in Nali's exposition which by the way my reading of it doesn't mean they are not also college educated or even beyond; it's the level of reasoning I think Nali is expressing frustration over, ama? ;D
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 17:28:27 GMT 3
A reliable source tells me Midiwo will be issuing a statement tomorrow let's hope it sheds more light on this issue. Omwenga: I am open-minded about things, and if he issues a statement that clarifies the points I have raised above, then I will retract from my head the idea that he would do well in the "Thursday Night Patrons' Stand-Up Comedy" at my local pub. Then there are those here who want and expect something to be done about this announcement and at the same time state that the authorities are incompetent, corrupt and untrustworthy. I've always been very impressed by people who can simultaneously manage in their heads two totally contradictory viewpoints. (Politicians and the insane excluded.)
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 9, 2012 17:31:49 GMT 3
I don't think much of Jakoyo Midiwo. Most people even in ODM don't. He is loud and noisy and I don't remember anything good he has ever done for the country. Personally I think his statement was reckless. We have a whole bunch of madmen running around the country preaching tribal hatred and hoping for chaos. We do not need Jakoyo Midiwo added into that list. I think some of these loud mouth Luo M.Ps should be locked up in a trailor somewhere until after the elections. They are Raila's worst enemy.
That said I would not be surprised if indeed some folks would rather see Raila dead than at State House. Why do I say that?
1. In the last couple of years we have seen a crusade in Kenya of "anybody but Raila" for the presidency. That has been what drives the political machinations of PNU, G7, URP, and now GEMA and KAMATUSA are in the mix. The more Raila looks like he could win the vote for the presidency the crazier these groups become. Why? What scares these people so much about Raila? What are they willing to do to stop Raila? Is anything beyond these folks in terms of stopping Raila? What are they going to do when they realize they actually cannot stop him?
2. In 2007 we were told Raila was unelectable. That was the catch word peddled even here in Jukwaa by the regular suspects. We were told he is a bad guy. If anything he is a Luo for crying out loud. That is what they told us. They talked about the circumcision stuff. They brought in the Muslims and Sharia Law to try to scare off people. When all that did not work they tried to destroy the country to stop Raila from State House. Some people decided it was better to have a Rwanda situation in Kenya than have Raila at State House. Michuki said that publicly and god knows how close we got to losing the country. Now we are at The Hague precisely for that reason. And guess what The Hague boys are the ones most violently opposed to Raila. These are chaps who have tried to ruin the country already, more than once. What are they going to do next?
3. My theory is that come December and Raila's numbers keep getting better as Kenyans realize at least he stands for something and could be a good transitional leader for the country, the lunatics in power are going to try something. If they have to kill him, they are going to poison him. If I was Raila I would not eat for the next two years but then again I am not Raila so I will continue eating my food with no problems. But seriously we need to lower the hatred in the country. The tribal nonsense is not going to work. Kenyans are fed up with it. Those banking on tribal math are going to be the biggest losers in the next General Elections. People are tired of tribalism. They will come and eat your money but they will not vote for you.
If Raila is smart and focused he will win the presidency. He needs to talk to Kenyans directly and effectionately about their country. Kenyans love their country but they are constantly scared someone is going to ruin it for them. Someone has to convince Kenyans that they own the country. If Raila can do that he will be their president for five years and then he should retire.
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 17:46:17 GMT 3
I see the usual Raila haters trying to convince us that the story is fake. Let's wait for midiwos statement. In fact I saw him shed tears, which means that he might have a major story I was hoping to read somewhere about the deceased and what people at the funeral said about his contributions and the kind of person he was. Instead, it's all about Midiwo. Not only do these guys seem to have hijacked the funeral, they even started crying about other things!
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Post by mank on Apr 9, 2012 17:48:59 GMT 3
But Raila is not the ICC. Why would killing him stop the ICC process? Is chaos not precisely what has led to the ICC? Why would chaos stop the process? Again, no one is sure that Midiwo is without a story ... the issue is his style, and personally I question whether Raila was not part of the style. If I was Raila in that position I my first issue would be with Midiwo. Does it make a difference that Raila was part of the story or not? The fact still remains that unless an investigation is done to disapprove midiwo then he has to be believed never mind the delivery style.
I see the usual Raila haters trying to convince us that the story is fake. Let's wait for midiwos statement. In fact I saw him shed tears, which means that he might have a major storyOf course it makes a difference. If Raila was in the know about what was coming at the funeral then it must be asked why Midiwo claimed that he had not informed Raila. Investigation cannot just start with chasing into the wind when the tactic itself raises questions as to whether there is anything real to pursue or whether it could be pure drama. The investigation starts with the person who claims to know something. Why he would choose to not inform the PM in privacy, only to ambush him with it in public, remains as big a question as "who is involved, why", and "how did Midiwo get to know about it".
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Post by furaha on Apr 9, 2012 17:50:20 GMT 3
This thread is a good example of what is wrong with history-starved interlocutors on Jukwaa (this excludes Akinyi, Firaha, , Omwenga). It all makes me believe that OO has, without knowing, stuffed Jukwaa with high school minds totally incapable of informed reflection. I would not mind the level of discourse if the vitriol against jakoyo came from the usual foils ( kamalet, Noway, mwalimkoo, njuguna.. Daniel waweru, etc) on this forum, but this........?? I suppose it would have been OK for Midiwo to go to Iteere and/or Gichangi and whisper into their hearing the insidious intent of some leaders against the person of the PM. had he done so, I can assure you Iteere and co would have come out with details of the alleged plot after a through investigation. Nonsense ! and jakwasanga you are really a disappointment on this. Nalinali, If you are suggesting that i am part of the 'vitriol' agains Midiwo I suggest you take the trouble of reading what I wrote on the subject yesterday. I am aware of the man's reputation but I did not and will never suggest that anyone with potentially important information about attempts on someone's life contacts the Kenyan police in an effort to redress the situation. Seeking publicity is the better option even if that means that it may never become clear whether or not there truly was a plot. Here is what I wrote and I once again recommend the HRW report to all those who may think that Midiwo should have gone o the police before he went public. Quote In cases like this the last place in Kenya to turn to is probably the police. Who trusts them? Have they given us reason to receive trust? If you want to know how bad it is read the December 2011 Human Rights Watch report 'Turning Pebbles' about police investigations into PEV. I guess we all knew that the investigations by police, Tobiko and others left a lot to be desired, but when you see it all laid out in front of you on the basis of credible research, you emerge shocked. At least I did. www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/kenya1211webwcover_0.pdfNo, if you are aware of a serious threat or even the possibility of one, the best defense is to shout it from the roof tops. Let as many folks as possible know about it. I have no idea where Jakoyo Midiwo got his information from and whether it is credible but, generally, going to the police is likely to yield the opposite of the desired outcome. « Last Edit: Yesterday at 9:05pm by furaha » Report to Mod - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged Unquote
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 17:54:03 GMT 3
Adongo: Someone in Raila's position, in a country like Kenya, must always assume that there are those who wish to do away with him. In his place, I would have my security organized on that basis. That is why I cannot get worked up about any plot, real or imagined, to kill him.
I repeat: There are those who have missed the point that some of us are making, and that is that even outside Jukwaa Midiwo's circus-like performance has now become a major distraction in what might have been a serious piece of information.
As for Midiwo the MP, just ask people in his Gem area. I wonder if he will get back in 2012.
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Post by akinyi2005 on Apr 9, 2012 17:54:13 GMT 3
so what if OO chooses to stuff jukwaa with high school minds? Are you questioning his intelligence too? what exactly have i said about midiwo that irks you? AINA Hehehe. Akinyi, You were excluded from those with "high school minds" in Nali's exposition which by the way my reading of it doesn't mean they are not also college educated or even beyond; it's the level of reasoning I think Nali is expressing frustration over, ama? ;D nalinali, mea maxima culpa!! ;D ;D omwenga thanks for coming to the rescue.
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 17:56:48 GMT 3
I did not and will never suggest that anyone with potentially important information about attempts on someone's life contacts the Kenyan police in an effort to redress the situation. Seeking publicity is the better option even if that means that it may never become clear whether or not there truly was a plot. Again, I ask: Why couldn't he go to the police and still have his public performance? Why does it have to be one or the other?
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Post by furaha on Apr 9, 2012 18:05:54 GMT 3
I did not and will never suggest that anyone with potentially important information about attempts on someone's life contacts the Kenyan police in an effort to redress the situation. Seeking publicity is the better option even if that means that it may never become clear whether or not there truly was a plot. Again, I ask: Why couldn't he go to the police and still have his public performance? Why does it have to be one or the other? Read the HRW report and you will see why it is a complete waste of time. And while the report deals with the PEV of more than four years ago, not much has changed since then. Why do you think crime is underreported in Kenya? Because people know the police station is not the place to go to. see also here. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/1381388/-/item/1/-/10cr9q7/-/index.html
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Post by Omwenga on Apr 9, 2012 18:05:55 GMT 3
A reliable source tells me Midiwo will be issuing a statement tomorrow let's hope it sheds more light on this issue. Omwenga: I am open-minded about things, and if he issues a statement that clarifies the points I have raised above, then I will retract from my head the idea that he would do well in the "Thursday Night Patrons' Stand-Up Comedy" at my local pub. Then there are those here who want and expect something to be done about this announcement and at the same time state that the authorities are incompetent, corrupt and untrustworthy. I've always been very impressed by people who can simultaneously manage in their heads two totally contradictory viewpoints. (Politicians and the insane excluded.) Hehehe. I like your sense of humor Otis; eti you exclude the politicians and the insane from those with ability to simultaneously hold contradictory viewpoints at the same time? You must have Mitt Romney in mind...but that's for another day. Regarding Midiwo, he would have to do something else to earn a patron spot at your said favorite pub as a comedian--I don't think it's this one ;D Let's wait and see what he says tomorrow but it goes without saying we need more of open-minded people as you say you are. I am too to things I am agreeable to. ;D
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Post by mank on Apr 9, 2012 18:07:43 GMT 3
and why not go to Raila first? Was he saving the man from himself?
Doesn't Raila have a security detail? If he does, is that also untrustworthy? What of Raila himsel? Untrustworthy too, or why was he sidelined?
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Post by nereah on Apr 9, 2012 18:08:46 GMT 3
back in the city with some pleasant news amidst this stunning one: the breaking news is that agwambo's numbers are up, over the requisite 50 per cent mark.now, thats as someone points out, makes him a high value target.
my comment as i settle down, is that i fullly agree with midiwo.
food for thought: when muthaura was busted in the secret recording at his office with some ameru students, guess who had the tape way before hand?
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Post by Omwenga on Apr 9, 2012 18:18:41 GMT 3
I don't think much of Jakoyo Midiwo. Most people even in ODM don't. He is loud and noisy and I don't remember anything good he has ever done for the country. Personally I think his statement was reckless. We have a whole bunch of madmen running around the country preaching tribal hatred and hoping for chaos. We do not need Jakoyo Midiwo added into that list. I think some of these loud mouth Luo M.Ps should be locked up in a trailor somewhere until after the elections. They are Raila's worst enemy. That said I would not be surprised if indeed some folks would rather see Raila dead than at State House. Why do I say that? 1. In the last couple of years we have seen a crusade in Kenya of "anybody but Raila" for the presidency. That has been what drives the political machinations of PNU, G7, URP, and now GEMA and KAMATUSA are in the mix. The more Raila looks like he could win the vote for the presidency the crazier these groups become. Why? What scares these people so much about Raila? What are they willing to do to stop Raila? Is anything beyond these folks in terms of stopping Raila? What are they going to do when they realize they actually cannot stop him? 2. In 2007 we were told Raila was unelectable. That was the catch word peddled even here in Jukwaa by the regular suspects. We were told he is a bad guy. If anything he is a Luo for crying out loud. That is what they told us. They talked about the circumcision stuff. They brought in the Muslims and Sharia Law to try to scare off people. When all that did not work they tried to destroy the country to stop Raila from State House. Some people decided it was better to have a Rwanda situation in Kenya than have Raila at State House. Michuki said that publicly and god knows how close we got to losing the country. Now we are at The Hague precisely for that reason. And guess what The Hague boys are the ones most violently opposed to Raila. These are chaps who have tried to ruin the country already, more than once. What are they going to do next? 3. My theory is that come December and Raila's numbers keep getting better as Kenyans realize at least he stands for something and could be a good transitional leader for the country, the lunatics in power are going to try something. If they have to kill him, they are going to poison him. If I was Raila I would not eat for the next two years but then again I am not Raila so I will continue eating my food with no problems. But seriously we need to lower the hatred in the country. The tribal nonsense is not going to work. Kenyans are fed up with it. Those banking on tribal math are going to be the biggest losers in the next General Elections. People are tired of tribalism. They will come and eat your money but they will not vote for you. If Raila is smart and focused he will win the presidency. He needs to talk to Kenyans directly and effectionately about their country. Kenyans love their country but they are constantly scared someone is going to ruin it for them. Someone has to convince Kenyans that they own the country. If Raila can do that he will be their president for five years and then he should retire. Adongo,Its good people like you I had in mind yesterday when I penned in my blog the following: The ODM Chief Whip Hon. Jakoyo Midiwo is not without any number of critics who either trash or don’t care about much of anything he says. Among those close to the PM, the man gets a fair share of name-calling not worth repeating here.
While this may be deemed to be part of politics, there is a time even someone like Midiwo must be taken seriously and one such time is recent saying that there is a plot afoot to eliminate Prime Minister Raila Odinga.
Midiwo even offered to make a statement to the OCPD to this effect.
No amount of political sarcasm can or should lead one to saying Midiwo said this for other than the reason he believes in what he said being true.
I have heard people start theorizing, others saying this is a distraction for ongoing ODM internal wrangles, others saying Midiwo is payukaring and so on.
I doubt Midiwo was payukaring and neither is this politicking as usual.
I noted earlier an impeccable source told me he is poised to issue a statement tomorrow, let's wait and see what he says and perhaps people can understand what's going on or at least try and separate that from him. The reasons you have given for why people would wish Raila were not breathing and definitely not at State House as president are all valid. I particularly like what you have said in #3 regarding reducing hatred (I say ending hatred) and tribalism in the country I may in the future quote it anonymously. This is something I have been preaching and continue to and have been saying Raila wins in 2012, ukabila itaisha the way we have known it and vice versa, meaning, he doesn't it's because tribalism rared its ugly head again. I am very optimistic its the former not the latter we shall experience.
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Post by Omwenga on Apr 9, 2012 18:24:21 GMT 3
Hehehe. Akinyi, You were excluded from those with "high school minds" in Nali's exposition which by the way my reading of it doesn't mean they are not also college educated or even beyond; it's the level of reasoning I think Nali is expressing frustration over, ama? ;D nalinali, mea maxima culpa!! ;D ;D omwenga thanks for coming to the rescue. Anytime my friend; it happens to all of us. I once emptied a clip on someone only to realize it was altogether the wrong person--I had the posts mixed-up; the target was a repeat offender I wished to put away, the victim an ally ;D ;D ;D I see Furaha didn't catch it either ;D
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Post by jules on Apr 9, 2012 18:33:14 GMT 3
I did not and will never suggest that anyone with potentially important information about attempts on someone's life contacts the Kenyan police in an effort to redress the situation. Seeking publicity is the better option even if that means that it may never become clear whether or not there truly was a plot. Again, I ask: Why couldn't he go to the police and still have his public performance? Why does it have to be one or the other?My friend,It seems that you don't live in Kenya.Citizens lost faith in Kenya police ages ago and it is always futile taking any matter to the police. They will mess up the investigations once paid up by the criminals and even participate in the cover up.I'm telling you this from personal experience and am in support of Midiwo going public before police caught wind of this information.
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Post by mzee on Apr 9, 2012 18:33:24 GMT 3
back in the city with some pleasant news amidst this stunning one: the breaking news is that agwambo's numbers are up, over the requisite 50 per cent mark.now, thats as someone points out, makes him a high value target. my comment as i settle down, is that i fullly agree with midiwo. food for thought: when muthaura was busted in the secret recording at his office with some ameru students, guess who had the tape way before hand? You beat me to that. Midiwo has sources. The man has some heavy stuff on Ongeri and co. Sent from my HTC Desire using ProBoards
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Post by reporter911 on Apr 9, 2012 18:34:24 GMT 3
YUP!! so the saga continues...
Orengo has a point...
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 18:42:55 GMT 3
Again, I ask: Why couldn't he go to the police and still have his public performance? Why does it have to be one or the other? My friend,It seems that you don't live in Kenya.Citizens lost faith in Kenya police ages ago and it is always futile taking any matter to the police. They will mess up the investigations once paid up by the criminals and even participate in the cover up.I'm telling you this from personal experience and am in support of Midiwo going public before police caught wind of this information. One more time: I'm not saying that Midiwo should not have gone public.(Of course, I still have issues with the place and time, but that is not the same as saying that he should not have gone public.) What I am asking is why he didn't do other things as well, such as informing Raila beforehand and going to the authorities. Anyone care to tackle that one?If all of the authorities are too incompetent, corrupt, and untrustworthy, then we, the general public should immediately take over investigations, prosecution, and the provision of Raila's security. Also, Midiwo should stop challenging the OCPDs of small towns to challenge him to give a statement. Accordingly, I ask Onyango Oloo to immediately form a "PM's Security Group" consisting of worthy members of Jukwaa. This group can liaise with like-minded groups in the country and rally the nation at this critical junction in our country's history.
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Post by patriotism101 on Apr 9, 2012 18:43:29 GMT 3
You rarely have Kamale and Adongo agree on an issue especially on the same thread- even though they are too far apart to acknowledge when they do so. On this one, both agree Jakoyo is a dunderhead. This is a good step forward. As a country we need to agree to agree sometimes!
I think every one agrees that RAO is a target and there are people who would wish him 9 ft under. To use OO's philosophy on life, RAO should operate as if the "knife" or the bullet will come the next minute- to operate otherwise will not be very prudent. Knowing the history of unsolved deaths in Kenya, how does a proclamation at a funeral without followup stop anyone interested in stoping RAO?
Matters of security, especially high target VIPS are not stuff to payuka at a funeral. To answer Otish, I think RAO should hire an independent security expert, if he does not trust his police security detail- who will do a review of all security procedures around him and make the necessary changes in view of the threats.
5 senti
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 18:51:18 GMT 3
To answer Otish, I think RAO should hire an independent security expert, if he does not trust his police security detail- who will do a review of all security procedures around him and make the necessary changes in view of the threats. 5 senti Ah, now we are getting somewhere. So, now let's wait and see what Raila himself says and does. Of course, right now we have no evidence that Raila does not trust his current security detail.
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Post by reporter911 on Apr 9, 2012 19:00:26 GMT 3
To answer Otish, I think RAO should hire an independent security expert, if he does not trust his police security detail- who will do a review of all security procedures around him and make the necessary changes in view of the threats. 5 senti Ah, now we are getting somewhere. So, now let's wait and see what Raila himself says and does. Of course, right now we have no evidence that Raila does not trust his current security detail.PM already answered watch the You-tube above ;D
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Post by OtishOtish on Apr 9, 2012 19:13:53 GMT 3
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Post by tnk on Apr 9, 2012 21:50:03 GMT 3
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 9, 2012 22:33:40 GMT 3
1. Merely the observed appearance that a politician shed round tears (and looked sad to boot), does not convince me of their genuineness, nor the authencity of the reason given for their rolling. That is why I love my lab reports! when they lie, it is because they are doctored! 2. Political ambition and power transforms psychology --popularly known as power corrupts, such that politicians are always into a performance act in public! So I look at a politician on public stage during campaign with a range of instruments designed to dispell smokscreens. 3. The threat may be real or not. So it is dealt with routinely, unless Midiwo supplies further breakthrough and crucial material which brings this particular threat to the top of the priorities. But the theatrical, tactless and stupid way in which Midiwo went about such an importaint matter --the assassination of Raila can create social strife, would already prejudice any serious investigator. It fits the profile of a fake calls. The wolf syndrome. You know on any given day the desk at the 'tops protection unit' recieves heaps and heaps of leads or tips of possible threats. There is therefore a way of elimination, of priority assessment, of grading credibility. And I am sure Midiwo's delivery makes it a zero priority at the serious desk. [ Ha Ha! he is waiting to be challenged by the local OCPD! Remember the film ghostbusters and its lead song with these lines: There is something bad, in the neighbourhood, who are you gonna call? ---Ghosbusters!The local OCPD really? you are not even going to call him! he has to call, challenge you!]. Imagine you are a cop with other life-saving things to do, like collecting bribes! ' Jogi dwaro negi'! those who speak Luo know that is very specific code! Stupid politicians will say any number of stupid things during a campaign period. How, by the way, did that grenade story at shell-house end? Or Anyang' ---this is not how you run a government-- Nyong'o's run-in at the City Square Post? Or Millie Odhiambo threat at Mbita that late night? Your observation is lumping every politician who cries at a friends funeral as crying crocodile tears or is it as you term it Politician tears, that is absurd one can't just make statements out of think air and insist that they are true.. . I find it insulating that one can blatantly claim that others cry crocodile tears at funerals..[/b] by the way how well do you know the PM and who gives you the right to claim that he was crying crocodile tears at his friends funeral? As for the death threat announce by Midiwo.. why come out shooting it down? what do you know that most Kenyans are unaware of? Al shabaab terrorist are now being blamed for everything including the recent bombing.. anyone planning an assassination has a window of opportunity to blame the terrorist to cover any murder of high level politicians.. I wonder if the plot was against Uhuru or Kibaki what reaction would have been out there? I bet you the police commissioner, CD Boss and every other Top notch police in the country would have been shouting on top of their voices how they were going to get to the bottom of the threat!! ala ! jukwaa would have been RED HOT with people shouting how dare.. just because it it the PM others are ready to brush and shrug the death plot off! utter nonsenses.. fact it is Midiwo announced to the world that a threat on the PM's life is out there.. Kenyans want to get to the bottom of who was involved and what was the planned end game.. A THREAT IS A THREAT AND IT MUST BE FOLLOWED UP!! Reporter!I had forgotten you are the world's worst reader! and clinical logic is far from your taste! What do you think spindoctors do with politicians? and what do you think 5 thousand years of recorded political history tells us about politicians? Giving a politician the benefit of doubt in Kenya, is like trusting a pick-pocket with your pockets! Let me tell you a story. The argument was about the car a leading politician should drive: a fuel-saving, economical, enviroment friendly toyota, or a fuel-guzzler top of the range monster like a hummer? And the spindoctors went to work. The public was profiled, the image to be projected too. And so you can guess which car was bought. I will state that before a politician weeps in public, he consults his spindoctor. Because in that tear drop, a whole image can be deconstructed, and tonnes of work of sleepless nights undone! That is why sciences like the biochemical analysis of tears to define the emotions that precipitated them are interesting! a behaviour exhibited without the emotion. [can there be other scientific proof apart from intuition?] There is a saying in Luo about the tears people shed at a funeral! Even without political theory of public relations, it reminds me of how deep the hearts of men can be in skulduggery! ----------------- Others: when the foreign minister is mentioned in a plot to assassinate the Prime minister of a country, and there is no cabinet crisis, do you not recognize you are viewing a theater of the asurd? There is no understanding here how serious a murder plot is. Everything is a joke in Kenya. But we will sure learn not everything is a joke in reality.
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