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Post by roughrider on Jul 8, 2012 22:43:59 GMT 3
B6k - I don't want to say any more on this subject. So this is my last. Are you trying to incite Oloo? I spoke plainly of things that anybody can observe. The things I speak of have been the subject of public demonstration. To compare me with the hateful musicians is to be clever by half. If people paid heed to my advice there would be betterment all round. If people listened to the musicians there would be trouble.
Sometimes a wildfire rages so bad that only another fire can stop it. Sometimes when a heart stops - even hard one like the octogenarian Mubarak's heart - only the force of electric voltage can jump-start it. I kid you not. It is not as if Kalenjins, Luhyias, Luos and Kurians do not have men and women who can compose music.
Oloo did not set up Jukwaa to gag people or cultivate a community of wimps. If you cannot stand the heat, then get the hell out of the kitchen!
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Post by b6k on Jul 8, 2012 23:19:35 GMT 3
B6k - I don't want to say any more on this subject. So this is my last. Are you trying to incite Oloo? I spoke plainly of things that anybody can observe. The things I speak of have been the subject of public demonstration. To compare me with the hateful musicians is to be clever by half. If people paid heed to my advice there would be betterment all round. If people listened to the musicians there would be trouble. Sometimes a wildfire rages so bad that only another fire can stop it. Sometimes when a heart stops - even hard one like the octogenarian Mubarak's heart - only the force of electric voltage can jump-start it. I kid you not. It is not as if Kalenjins, Luhyias, Luos and Kurians do not have men and women who can compose music. Oloo did not set up Jukwaa to gag people or cultivate a community of wimps. If you cannot stand the heat, then get the hell out of the kitchen! RR, alas I wield no such power over OO to assume that I can incite him to take any action. Indeed OO usually tends to stay above the melee & cracks down only on the least incidious of contributors on the board. If even the likes of Job or Adongo couldn't get him to pull Jakaswanga's Luo leadership thread, do you honestly believe he would listen to your's truly? You confuse moderator I had in mind with our administrator in this case. Time zone allowing, I am waiting to see the swift reaction from said moderator ;D
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Post by einstein on Jul 9, 2012 21:42:16 GMT 3
Ethnic radio stations are fuelling a culture of intolerance in this country By RASNA WARAHMahatma Gandhi was not circumcised. Nor was Winston Churchill. And I am willing to bet my last shilling that India’s Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has not experienced “the cut”. Nor has British Premier David Cameron. Yet I have never heard a Kenyan refer to these men as “boys” who are unfit to lead. Of course, it would be very different if these men were Kenyan. Then they would have been dismissed as juveniles. And ethnic radio stations might have even castigated them for not being man enough to take on the job of president. Kenyans might be surprised to learn that an estimated 70 per cent of males around the globe are not circumcised and that in some African countries, such as Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Namibia and Swaziland, male circumcision is prevalent in less than 20 per cent of the population. Circumcision is most rare in Europe and Latin America but is most prevalent in the Muslim world, parts of South-East Asia, the United States, the Philippines, Israel and South Korea. I am not trying to advocate against male circumcision; I am just trying to highlight the double standards of Kenyans. I actually believe that male circumcision is a good thing. Various medical studies have shown that circumcised males experience fewer health problems than those who are not circumcised. In Kenya, even Luo men have started to get circumcised because circumcision has shown to reduce the chances of HIV infection. The recent cases of hate speech related to songs about male circumcision and the ones that were rampant prior to the 2007 election should be a wake-up call for the government, which, in its haste to liberalise the airwaves, failed to enforce a code of conduct on radio stations, and failed to bring to book those stations that violated people’s rights and dignity. The bigger question, I believe, is what level of responsibility individual musicians and radio stations should take for songs aired. Is the radio station that plays a hateful song as guilty of hate speech as the person who sang it? I should think so. One of the unintended consequences of the liberalisation of the airwaves and the proliferation of vernacular FM stations is that that the notion of “nationhood” has evaporated and negative ethnicity has become even more entrenched. One might argue that vernacular stations promote cohesion within ethnic communities and impart important information about these communities’ culture and history. But what if the radio station is used to undermine equal opportunities and impose a kind of apartheid in society? For instance, a popular Hindi-language radio station regularly airs classified ads for jobs that require that the applicant be fluent in Gujarati. Now Gujarati is one of several hundred languages of the Indian sub-continent and is neither a national language in India nor in Kenya. Going by this requirement, neither I nor the majority of my fellow Kenyans are eligible to apply for these jobs. It is clear to anyone listening to these commercials that the intention of the potential employers/advertisers is to hire someone from their own “tribe” (i.e. someone whose origins are in the state of Gujarat in India). This excludes Punjabi speakers like myself and the rest of Kenya’s more than 40 ethnic groups. These ads are not only racist, they are exclusive – they deny equal opportunities to Kenyans of all races and ethnic groups. The other thing that irritates me about these so-called Asian FM stations is that their point of reference is almost always India or Pakistan, not Kenya. The hosts will spend a lot of time talking about Bollywood gossip, and the goings-on in India, but hardly ever refer to events taking place in this country. It is highly patronising – and short-sighted – for the hosts and owners of these stations to assume that their audiences have no interest in local affairs. Moreover, instead of fostering greater understanding and tolerance between races, these stations are fostering ethnic cocoons. I have yet to hear a Kiswahili or Kikuyu song played on these stations or a host who is not of Indian or Pakistani origin. This is a scenario that should no longer be tolerated. rasna.warah@gmail.com. www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/-/440808/1448862/-/lpnnanz/-/index.html
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Post by Fahari on Jul 9, 2012 23:56:16 GMT 3
Fahari, I am afraid we have to ignore my brother Einstein, and proceed with answering the question you have posed. This borderline is currently holding the attention of the nation in court, where gikuyu benga musicians are being used as an example to terrify others. Deterrence yes, like when Idi Amin allegedly pulled out the tongue of another poet and sent it to Okot p'Bitek: one more word against me, and you will be singing no more like him! thank you! Take a look at your fellow citizens. Well-dressed, likely middle and upper cs, and have paid to be entertained in this manner. From the way they laugh, react and recognize, I will say this stand-up is good. And this guys and dames in the audience are getting value for their money. This is a popular art form so 'value for money' is a pillar, since satisfaction not guaranteed, entry wont be paid, 'n artist starves. Here is a Kenyan artists having a successful night in his line of business. And the unity of performer and audience is a certification. The audience which I surmise is cross-cultural, mixy-mixy, is emmensely enjoying themselves. Fahari this is art: you start thinking people who make others laugh should be curtailed, then you know you no longer human. And this is not the haughty, emotionally disconnected laughter of jeer, --the one found in a lynching mob spectator. But then, if you would have an idea of what COMEDY NIGHTS look like in our respective languages! what stand-up comedians serve, when they hit the button b6k calls the OTHER!you would definitely faint if you think this is extreme!Across the nation, wherever people celebrate their cultures in their own languages which still have an oral bend, word-smiths like linguists, comedians, musicians, preachers, are busy poking the middle finger at Kibunja every second of the day. What do you think a gikuyu all night comedy before an all gikuyu audience looks like? Well, it looks like the all Luo comedy night, Joluo kendgi'! where ream after peal after ream of laughter is shed at the expense of [eg] 'jamwa' ma raywom'! Jakaswanga, I will take your advice and ignore the one who consistently fails to live up to his handle. Jukwaa has become so very civilized, everyone is so nice and polite, gone are the bloody duels of the yore, so I have to follow suit I believe in the freedom of speech and I'm completely averse to censorship of political thought. I am yet to be convinced otherwise in spite of some very good arguments by TNKMy initial aim was at highlighting the bigotry on this forum. It only becomes ‘hate speech’ when “our” side is disparaged or when our “dear leader” is ridiculed but turns into art when “other” side is artistically dehumanized. The sides may be political, ethnic or gender based. I have been to many comedy nights in Kenya and most if not all of the humour is ethnic based and is often quite hilarious. Ethnic humour may even be considered cathartic in the sense that, when we laugh at others, we may feel better about ourselves and hate them less, but that's another argument all together. The clip in question celebrates violence and I do not consider any form of violence funny. Jakaswanga, you claim its art but I would remind you that at the height of Roman civilization it was considered entertaining and a form of art, to have a lion maul a man to death. Today, its considered barbaric. That video clip falls under the barbaric category. (barbaric art perhaps?) It raises the issue on whether that line of comedy is art, "hate speech" or sheer bad taste aka pedestrian humour. People were actually laughing at a mans battered and scarred face! Although some in the audience were squirming, as you pointed out, they did not walk out. I view the NCIC action on the musicians as attempting to legislate taste. The salient issue here is; Can we can legislate taste and where would we draw the line? a stasi scenario perhaps with NCIC eavesdropping on our conversations in our kitchens and bedrooms to deter hate speech? In my opinion, those musicians exemplified bad taste they ridiculed, insulted and disparaged “others” which is not a crime. Having a violent thought or expressing it is not criminal; acting on that thought is what constitutes a crime Looting burning killing etc are crimes and people have to be held individually responsible for the crimes they commit. Failure to hold individuals accountable is what perpetuates violence
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Post by einstein on Jul 10, 2012 0:22:21 GMT 3
Fahari, I am afraid we have to ignore my brother Einstein, and proceed with answering the question you have posed. This borderline is currently holding the attention of the nation in court, where gikuyu benga musicians are being used as an example to terrify others. Deterrence yes, like when Idi Amin allegedly pulled out the tongue of another poet and sent it to Okot p'Bitek: one more word against me, and you will be singing no more like him! thank you! Take a look at your fellow citizens. Well-dressed, likely middle and upper cs, and have paid to be entertained in this manner. From the way they laugh, react and recognize, I will say this stand-up is good. And this guys and dames in the audience are getting value for their money. This is a popular art form so 'value for money' is a pillar, since satisfaction not guaranteed, entry wont be paid, 'n artist starves. Here is a Kenyan artists having a successful night in his line of business. And the unity of performer and audience is a certification. The audience which I surmise is cross-cultural, mixy-mixy, is emmensely enjoying themselves. Fahari this is art: you start thinking people who make others laugh should be curtailed, then you know you no longer human. And this is not the haughty, emotionally disconnected laughter of jeer, --the one found in a lynching mob spectator. But then, if you would have an idea of what COMEDY NIGHTS look like in our respective languages! what stand-up comedians serve, when they hit the button b6k calls the OTHER!you would definitely faint if you think this is extreme!Across the nation, wherever people celebrate their cultures in their own languages which still have an oral bend, word-smiths like linguists, comedians, musicians, preachers, are busy poking the middle finger at Kibunja every second of the day. What do you think a gikuyu all night comedy before an all gikuyu audience looks like? Well, it looks like the all Luo comedy night, Joluo kendgi'! where ream after peal after ream of laughter is shed at the expense of [eg] 'jamwa' ma raywom'! Jakaswanga, I will take your advice and ignore the one who consistently fails to live up to his handle. Jukwaa has become so very civilized, everyone is so nice and polite, gone are the bloody duels of the yore, so I have to follow suit I believe in the freedom of speech and I'm completely averse to censorship of political thought. I am yet to be convinced otherwise in spite of some very good arguments by TNKMy initial aim was at highlighting the bigotry on this forum. It only becomes ‘hate speech’ when “our” side is disparaged or when our “dear leader” is ridiculed but turns into art when “other” side is artistically dehumanized. The sides may be political, ethnic or gender based. I have been to many comedy nights in Kenya and most if not all of the humour is ethnic based and is often quite hilarious. Ethnic humour may even be considered cathartic in the sense that, when we laugh at others, we may feel better about ourselves and hate them less, but that's another argument all together. The clip in question celebrates violence and I do not consider any form of violence funny. Jakaswanga, you claim its art but I would remind you that at the height of Roman civilization it was considered entertaining and a form of art, to have a lion maul a man to death. Today, its considered barbaric. That video clip falls under the barbaric category. (barbaric art perhaps?) It raises the issue on whether that line of comedy is art, "hate speech" or sheer bad taste aka pedestrian humour. People were actually laughing at a mans battered and scarred face! Although some in the audience were squirming, as you pointed out, they did not walk out. I view the NCIC action on the musicians as attempting to legislate taste. The salient issue here is; Can we can legislate taste and where would we draw the line? a stasi scenario perhaps with NCIC eavesdropping on our conversations in our kitchens and bedrooms to deter hate speech? In my opinion, those musicians exemplified bad taste they ridiculed, insulted and disparaged “others” which is not a crime. Having a violent thought or expressing it is not criminal; acting on that thought is what constitutes a crime Looting burning killing etc are crimes and people have to be held individually responsible for the crimes they commit. Failure to hold individuals accountable is what perpetuates violence Fahari,Please leave my handle out of it. It may just land you in very BIG trouble. Ask your friend Jakaswanga if you think mine is just but a joke. Always restrict yourself to the topic under discussion and you SHALL NEVER go wrong. My handle is my handle. You got no idea why I chose it. If you fancy the handle, please feel free to give yourself the screen name 'Einstein1' or something of the sort. So, just back off please! And by the way, I do not have to be nice to anybody on this board. I'm not ready to baby-sit anybody here!
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Post by Fahari on Jul 10, 2012 2:35:56 GMT 3
Fahari,Please leave my handle out of it. It may just land you in very BIG trouble. Ask your friend Jakaswanga if you think mine is just but a joke. Always restrict yourself to the topic under discussion and you SHALL NEVER go wrong. My handle is my handle. You got no idea why I chose it. If you fancy the handle, please feel free to give yourself the screen name 'Einstein1' or something of the sort. So, just back off please! And by the way, I do not have to be nice to anybody on this board. I'm not ready to baby-sit anybody here! Einstein I don't take kindly to threats, or lectures!Are you by any chance suggesting that the administrator and moderators do not provide adequate policing or is that you consider them total incompetents who require your services? Whatever the case is, you would be better off addressing OO not me!!
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Post by einstein on Jul 10, 2012 3:55:54 GMT 3
Fahari,Please leave my handle out of it. It may just land you in very BIG trouble. Ask your friend Jakaswanga if you think mine is just but a joke. Always restrict yourself to the topic under discussion and you SHALL NEVER go wrong. My handle is my handle. You got no idea why I chose it. If you fancy the handle, please feel free to give yourself the screen name 'Einstein1' or something of the sort. So, just back off please! And by the way, I do not have to be nice to anybody on this board. I'm not ready to baby-sit anybody here! Einstein I don't take kindly to threats, or lectures!Are you by any chance suggesting that the administrator and moderators do not provide adequate policing or is that you consider them total incompetents who require your services? Whatever the case is, you would be better off addressing OO not me!! Fahari,Of course, it is because you are used to being pampered and you think you can carry that over here to this board? If you do not believe me, then please try again to disparage my personality based on my handle. I can assure you that there will be consequences which might take any of the following forms: Either: I'm kicked out of the board and you remain or you are kicked out and I remain or both of us get kicked out of the board or OO ignores the both of us and life continues. Mind you, I have been kicked out of this board before and as such it would be NOTHING new for me to be shown the door! The choice is yours Fahari! I'm simply tired of folks resorting to attacking my handle just because they cannot cope with the level of discussion on this board. To borrow from Roughrider, if the kitchen is too hot for you then the wise thing to do is to move out of the kitchen. No one is going to attack my handle again and I can bet you my mother's single goat, to borrow from Adongo, that OO is reading this useless exchange between the both of us. I have to address you, since it is YOU who attacked my handle and NOT OO. This is my last response to you in connection to my handle. Jeeeez!
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Post by Fahari on Jul 10, 2012 21:49:44 GMT 3
Fahari,Of course, it is because you are used to being pampered and you think you can carry that over here to this board? If you do not believe me, then please try again to disparage my personality based on my handle. I can assure you that there will be consequences which might take any of the following forms: I'm simply tired of folks resorting to attacking my handle just because they cannot cope with the level of discussion on this board. I have to address you, since it is YOU who attacked my handle and NOT OO. This is my last response to you in connection to my handle. Jeeeez! EinsteinYou can be quite exasperating but I will let you in on a little secret, you disparage yourself,You prove your genius by constructing a sentence such as this: I just noticed that you are in a dearth of well balanced contributions on this board viz-a-viz the political divide in Kenya. Right? You disparage yourself when you litter the thread with unsolicited advice and logic such as this jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=7094&page=10#ixzz20F1PkxCDAnd this jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2175&page=1You disparage yourself over and over again, Einstein.Now, can we go back to discussing bigotry?
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Post by einstein on Jul 14, 2012 21:53:36 GMT 3
Take action on anybody inciting ethnic hatred Once upon a time we were among the world’s most promising Third World countries, not only in economic terms but also in terms of potential quality manpower. How, then, do we explain the Kenyan tragedy? As the biblical prophet used to wonder, how have the mighty fallen? I have lived in many countries throughout the planet. But I have never seen a country like Kenya – where the number of politicians with pinheads for brains is increasing at such a high speed. What happened to Kenya? How is it that, nowadays, every day that the sun rises, senior politicians spew forth words that are increasingly embarrassing by their intellectual vacuity and moral stench? Why can’t even a young university educated man — a presidential candidate into the bargain — drum up even the most elementary sense of logic? In a country which is desperately pining for a political leadership that can save it from the precipice of an ethnic explosion — what sense of responsibility does a politician show when he attacks a government functionary for trying to bring to book anybody who may try to drive a wedge between our ethnic communities? This week, Mzalendo Kibunjia — the man in charge of ensuring our ethnic cohesion — tried to seek redress from certain individuals, accusing them of using words in music that might create ethnic hatred and violence. Since the matter is in a court of law, the details of this particular case will not concern us here. We leave it to the judicial powers. I am concerned only about the MPs – including a senior cabinet minister and potential president – who have pilloried Mr Kibunjia for taking that action. Their problem seems to be that, by taking those youngsters to court, Mr Kibunjia is “targeting” only a certain ethnic group. If it pricks me more than it pricks you, there is a good reason. For I have often been the target of such logical fatuity. There was a time – after the infamous MOU between Mr Kibaki and Mr Odinga – when, every time I criticised the Kibaki government, I would receive e-mail from some Kikuyu readers accusing me of “Kikuyu bashing”. Logic had gone completely haywire! For these individuals – even in a country with approaching 50 ethnic communities – Mr Kibaki was synonymous with Kikuyu. The individuals probably had no idea that, with such bigoted kind of ownership of the President, they were alienating other Kenyans and making it very difficult for those Kenyans to regard Mr Kibaki with very tender hearts. But the desire that Mr Kibunjia will discharge his duties without fear or favour is the reason Kenyans have invested so much hope in him. Indeed, perception that he is not pursuing tribalists, racists, sexists, sectarians, religious bigots and other “hate speakers” with enough vigour is what has earned him the cane in recent days. As soldiers and cultists know, music – because it is the most abstract of all the fine arts – is also the most apt to trigger the most irrational behaviour in an audience.That is why we must act decisively against anybody who might be tempted to use the musical beat to induce us into a national war-dance of the kind that overtook us in 2008. But it seems to some MPs – and even to an individual who might soon be our president – that Mr Kibunjia should implement his mandate selectively. If the “suspect” is a Kikuyu, he must not be touched. I doubt whether the presidential candidate among them would have uttered a single word had the musicians been Giriama, Kisii, Somali or Teso. And yet he wants to be their president! That is why we must condemn him in the strongest possible terms. For our quest is for leaders who pursue with equal vigour everything everywhere in Kenya that undermines our rapid growth towards a single happy nation. ochiengotani@gmail.comwww.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Take+action+on+anybody+inciting+ethnic+hatred+/-/440808/1453976/-/v5bcxnz/-/index.html
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 28, 2017 10:08:59 GMT 3
THE BABU OWINO CASE
The first report is he was arrested for hate speech. This followed utterances at a rally in Kawangware, Nairobi. But it soon came clear to prosecutors, this was a dead end. The national cohesion and integration Comission, NCIC, through Dr. Joseph Onsongo couldn't find the hate in the speech. What remained was for the recalcitrant bureaucracy to make a fool of itself in court, where lawyer Orengo shrugged them off with a bit of a contemptuous lesson on legal definitions.
So humiliated were the authorities, that they decided to go all out to wreck Babu Owino, wherefore they re-arrested him an alleged assault on Jacobs. Jacobs was his last SONU opponent.
But the thing is just how stupid this hate-soeech law is. How it is used by a mentally retarded, say backward adminstration and parochial bureaucracy, to witch-hunt critics, and intimidate would-be critics.
It appears the ire was the hint by Mr. Owino at the historical options of Kenya. Revolution. A mass uprising the type that ejected Gbagbo, Compaore, Milosevic, Gaddafi, Caeaucescu, Mubarak.
Its always important to know the real reason of a political act as opposed to the stated state reason, even if it is the withdrawal of the bodyguards of former VPs and PMs!
The hate speech law is a fool's remedy to a gaping wound. We are apart and at a stalemate, with stinted, clueless leaders. A slow motion walk to Disasterland!
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Post by podp on Sept 28, 2017 22:53:58 GMT 3
THE BABU OWINO CASE The first report is he was arrested for hate speech. This followed utterances at a rally in Kawangware, Nairobi. But it soon came clear to prosecutors, this was a dead end. The national cohesion and integration Comission, NCIC, through Dr. Joseph Onsongo couldn't find the hate in the speech. What remained was for the recalcitrant bureaucracy to make a fool of itself in court, where lawyer Orengo shrugged them off with a bit of a contemptuous lesson on legal definitions. So humiliated were the authorities, that they decided to go all out to wreck Babu Owino, wherefore they re-arrested him an alleged assault on Jacobs. Jacobs was his last SONU opponent. But the thing is just how stupid this hate-soeech law is. How it is used by a mentally retarded, say backward adminstration and parochial bureaucracy, to witch-hunt critics, and intimidate would-be critics. It appears the ire was the hint by Mr. Owino at the historical options of Kenya. Revolution. A mass uprising the type that ejected Gbagbo, Compaore, Milosevic, Gaddafi, Caeaucescu, Mubarak. Its always important to know the real reason of a political act as opposed to the stated state reason, even if it is the withdrawal of the bodyguards of former VPs and PMs! The hate speech law is a fool's remedy to a gaping wound. We are apart and at a stalemate, with stinted, clueless leaders. A slow motion walk to Disasterland! the embers begin to glow PORK is the most dangerous individual in Kenya now to a visitor from outer space RAO is the most visible and probably real power keg DPORK holding PORK's ball and reminding his boss of unfinished business in the Rift V interesting times ahead as our options as a country remain 3
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Post by kamalet on Sept 29, 2017 9:40:57 GMT 3
THE BABU OWINO CASE The first report is he was arrested for hate speech. This followed utterances at a rally in Kawangware, Nairobi. But it soon came clear to prosecutors, this was a dead end. The national cohesion and integration Comission, NCIC, through Dr. Joseph Onsongo couldn't find the hate in the speech. What remained was for the recalcitrant bureaucracy to make a fool of itself in court, where lawyer Orengo shrugged them off with a bit of a contemptuous lesson on legal definitions. So humiliated were the authorities, that they decided to go all out to wreck Babu Owino, wherefore they re-arrested him an alleged assault on Jacobs. Jacobs was his last SONU opponent. But the thing is just how stupid this hate-soeech law is. How it is used by a mentally retarded, say backward adminstration and parochial bureaucracy, to witch-hunt critics, and intimidate would-be critics. It appears the ire was the hint by Mr. Owino at the historical options of Kenya. Revolution. A mass uprising the type that ejected Gbagbo, Compaore, Milosevic, Gaddafi, Caeaucescu, Mubarak. Its always important to know the real reason of a political act as opposed to the stated state reason, even if it is the withdrawal of the bodyguards of former VPs and PMs! The hate speech law is a fool's remedy to a gaping wound. We are apart and at a stalemate, with stinted, clueless leaders. A slow motion walk to Disasterland! Just for the record, Babu Owino is still charged with the first offence for which he was granted a Bond of 500k. The assault case is a second case for which he was also released on a similar bond. I am very confident that you do not intend to imply the second charge is concorted for there must surely have been a complaint by the person he allegedly beat up! I would imagine your beef to be the injustice of a matter reported to the Police on 8th August being raised in court more than a month after the offence was committed! You are right in asking people to look for real political reasons for actions such as SCALING DOWN (as opposed to withdrawal!!) of security guards - a nice reminder that some fellow who is a few months younger than me is actually president and sitting on the 'throne' "na matako yote mbili"
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