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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 25, 2012 20:28:05 GMT 3
Jakaswanga! I am surprised that an otherwise well-informed man should have missed the boat on ohangla, in the choice of both artist and artistry. Here is a new-and-improved reference: otishotish,It was the Kar-Chakne which was the 'national anthem'! in Nyanza. It dethroned Nyadundos 'Isanda gi Hera' which had no politics! NB: Papa Jey's delivery was at an inspired level which is dubbed 'gi juogi'. If you heed the synthesizer, you will notice he is on a 'high' throughout. otishotish, the panel which declared Onyi a god on that track was pretty thorough. You will notice 'Nyadundo's 'mediated passion' in this post of yours! That is, he is not possessed of the 'juogi' spirit here. technically good, but lacklustre in passion.
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Post by Omwenga on Jun 25, 2012 20:28:59 GMT 3
But there is enough common sense and trust within the society to reduce these extremes to marginal phenomenons. So marginal they are, that they can be contained, and become merely curio. I therefore would like you to consider the possibility that, in reasoning to curtail the freedom of expression, the implication is that your opinion of your fellow citizens is that they are a gullible lot, weak-minded, easily swayed by nonsense, incapable of generating alternative counter viewpoints to debunk the nonsensical hate. Actually mentally very simplistic and mediocre. So you need to protect their undeveloped minds, like say, you do when you ban your kids from watching porno. I am from a school which trusts the average fellow, say every Onyango Kamau and Mutiso, to be able to separate nonsense from sense. Even in music." . Jakaswanga,Let me further add to my position on this which, even though I agreed with Mugabe 100% who went the opposite direction with you regarding artistic expression, it doesn't mean I also disagreed with you 100% ;D for their is a point of convergence I mostly agree with you and that is, freedom of expression should and must be allowed to flourish critical or unacceptable it may be to some or others at one time or another. Where we differ is your apparent believe--and correct me if I am wrong that these expressions, especially the most vile of them in terms of their stoking tribal based animosity and hatred or even notions of superiority could be repelled an/or shunned by people you deem to not to be " a gullible lot, weak-minded, easily swayed by nonsense, incapable of generating alternative counter viewpoints to debunk the nonsensical hate [or]mentally very simplistic and mediocre."By that argument alone, you are almost as the optimist I am in my belief our people are now more informed and by large numbers are shedding the backwardness of tribalism and tribalism politicians have milked for decades for their own selfish gain but I am far from believing all society or even most of it has embraced this progressive thinking. In a close election as this one is gearing up to be unless certain tectonic movements take place in which case it will be once again a sweep by Raila and ODM, a good number of the very gullible and mindless you speak of can buy the nonsense and deny the victory train the votes necessary to get over the hump precisely for this backward reasoning and mind control and thus the reason we must all condemn this type of divisive and hate based politics. Thus, much as we shield and protect our children from being exposed to porn, to use your analogy, we must in the same vain protect some of these people from being easily swayed or influenced by rhetoric or nonsense like this. UK is quoted as having said on his Facebook, “A certain blogger brought this to our attention and we would like to strongly point out that if this is what certain vernacular musicians are doing, regardless of the language and community, we truly stand against it!”[/i] I commend him for this statement and unlike those who may doubt his sincerity, I give him full benefit of doubt that he means it and this is a remarkable improvement of what we have seen from him in the past relating stoking racial animosity and division. Indeed, coupled with his recent statement that he is seriously considering bowing out of the race, don't be surprised if the man altogether endorses Raila after all as I previously predicted. You would, too, if it becomes obvious the man is unstoppable and you believe he is the only one who can save your skin from being nailed and that's not to say he will. It's called leveraging the odds in one's favor.
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 25, 2012 21:07:01 GMT 3
Omwenga,I am also happy with the denunciation from Uhuru. And I will not question his sincerity neither. (He is a politician, so if he lies in public that is not a big deal!) But this is what I would like. NOT BANNING THESE ARTISTIC OUTPUTS, BUT CONDEMNING THEM AND EXPLAINING WHY! And leaders distancing themselves from them. Giving them no sanction of legitimacy. They can then actually be laughed at as jokes, and kept in the archives to remind future generations of just how far we are coming from! ON KIBUNJA AND HIS MISSION IMPOSSIBLES: I can not think of anything more primitive than the idea of bureaucrats meddling in the content of artistic productions, creative scripts. Mind control. No, let them kibunjas do that at the curriculum foundation where the schools syllabus is set. they can choose their tame literature their, tailored to keep the students in mental inertia. In the free world outside offices, reality is a terrifying phenomenon which dictates total exposure to the full range of the acts of the human mind. Mostly criminal!!! HERE ARE TWO FUNNY STORIES TO DO WITH MUSIC. The epic track Sole Candidate {Candidat na biso] by Franco and TPOK Jazz, popularly known as Mobutu. Artistically powerful and was a run away best seller even amongst Mobutu haters! The words are all trash to the latter. --(Though somebody taught us that between the lines reside codes of heavy satire lost on hasty listeners. In other words, the song also says if you believe Mobutu is a godsend, you are barmy, but he has given me good money to say so, so I say candidate na biso! You would have to understimate greatly, the intelligence of geniuses like the Poet Simarro, if you think they can praise Mobutu to the heavens without irony! while they could see with their very eyes Zaire was a piece of dung republic. But it requires a study of the work. This is why when I hear Kibunja is going to use 'CERTIFIED GIKUYU TRANSLATORS' I just laugh. Total idiocy and the standard mediocrity of the Kenyan bureaucracy. The work of an artist can be a maze. Every re-reading or re-listening, revealing yet a layer, like onion sheets.Do you know why the song 'Moi songa na-mbele tojenga kenya yetu', (which was repeatedly being played on Kenya radio after the Ochuka coup was crushed) was dropped after a couple of hours? It was because some swahili linguists raised the alarm that it also could mean: Moi get the hell out of here we want to build Kenya without you!It is called having your cake and eating it! only possible in art! Wonderful But there is enough common sense and trust within the society to reduce these extremes to marginal phenomenons. So marginal they are, that they can be contained, and become merely curio. I therefore would like you to consider the possibility that, in reasoning to curtail the freedom of expression, the implication is that your opinion of your fellow citizens is that they are a gullible lot, weak-minded, easily swayed by nonsense, incapable of generating alternative counter viewpoints to debunk the nonsensical hate. Actually mentally very simplistic and mediocre. So you need to protect their undeveloped minds, like say, you do when you ban your kids from watching porno. I am from a school which trusts the average fellow, say every Onyango Kamau and Mutiso, to be able to separate nonsense from sense. Even in music." . Jakaswanga,Let me further add to my position on this which, even though I agreed with Mugabe 100% who went the opposite direction with you regarding artistic expression, it doesn't mean I also disagreed with you 100% ;D for their is a point of convergence I mostly agree with you and that is, freedom of expression should and must be allowed to flourish critical or unacceptable it may be to some or others at one time or another. Where we differ is your apparent believe--and correct me if I am wrong that these expressions, especially the most vile of them in terms of their stoking tribal based animosity and hatred or even notions of superiority could be repelled an/or shunned by people you deem to not to be " a gullible lot, weak-minded, easily swayed by nonsense, incapable of generating alternative counter viewpoints to debunk the nonsensical hate [or]mentally very simplistic and mediocre."By that argument alone, you are almost as the optimist I am in my belief our people are now more informed and by large numbers are shedding the backwardness of tribalism and tribalism politicians have milked for decades for their own selfish gain but I am far from believing all society or even most of it has embraced this progressive thinking. In a close election as this one is gearing up to be unless certain tectonic movements take place in which case it will be once again a sweep by Raila and ODM, a good number of the very gullible and mindless you speak of can buy the nonsense and deny the victory train the votes necessary to get over the hump precisely for this backward reasoning and mind control and thus the reason we must all condemn this type of divisive and hate based politics. Thus, much as we shield and protect our children from being exposed to porn, to use your analogy, we must in the same vain protect some of these people from being easily swayed or influenced by rhetoric or nonsense like this. UK is quoted as having said on his Facebook, “A certain blogger brought this to our attention and we would like to strongly point out that if this is what certain vernacular musicians are doing, regardless of the language and community, we truly stand against it!” [/i] I commend him for this statement and unlike those who may doubt his sincerity, I give him full benefit of doubt that he means it and this is a remarkable improvement of what we have seen from him in the past relating stoking racial animosity and division. Indeed, coupled with his recent statement that he is seriously considering bowing out of the race, don't be surprised if the man altogether endorses Raila after all as I previously predicted. You would, too, if it becomes obvious the man is unstoppable and you believe he is the only one who can save your skin from being nailed and that's not to say he will. It's called leveraging the odds in one's favor.[/quote]
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 25, 2012 21:32:03 GMT 3
Omwenga,I am also happy with the denunciation from Uhuru. And I will not question his sincerity neither. (He is a politician, so if he lies in public that is not a big deal!) Of course, he's lying; hasn't' he been, through "prayer" rallies etc., been milking tribe as though someone had threatened to delete it from the dictionary? But it is a "good", "leadership-quality" lie.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 25, 2012 21:48:19 GMT 3
Jakaswanga! I am surprised that an otherwise well-informed man should have missed the boat on ohangla, in the choice of both artist and artistry. Here is a new-and-improved reference: otishotish,It was the Kar-Chakne which was the 'national anthem'! in Nyanza. It dethroned Nyadundos 'Isanda gi Hera' which had no politics! NB: Papa Jey's delivery was at an inspired level which is dubbed 'gi juogi'. If you heed the synthesizer, you will notice he is on a 'high' throughout. otishotish, the panel which declared Onyi a god on that track was pretty thorough. You will notice 'Nyadundo's 'mediated passion' in this post of yours! That is, he is not possessed of the 'juogi' spirit here. technically good, but lacklustre in passion. Many years ago, I listened to Bob Marley explain the basis of real reggae. According to him, it is a music of sufferation. He gave a weed-addled explanation of the difference between sufferation and suffering, which I, fortunately being a weed-addled youth at the time, managed to get. But one need not be stoned to appreciate the difference: anyone with a good knowledge of African-American blues music knows that, contrary to popular image, it is not about suffering---the sad stuff about wayward lovers, women of easy virtue, unemployment, poverty or whatever---and, indeed, there are happy blues. Ohangla is like real reggae or the blues: It started out as a music of suffering (in the funeral dirges etc.) and then morphed, to used the 21st vernacular, into a music of sufferation, which was its peak. It has since been twisted ("abused" for the less generous) into all sorts of things. My point: Just looking at your hero, he appears to have known neither sufferation nor suffering, both of which require some living. Definitely entertaining, but, done right, music is about much more than entertainment. Had it not been for the fact that "passing cloud" has problematic connotations for Kenyans, I would have described your youthful hero as a passing cloud.
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Post by mank on Jun 25, 2012 21:54:32 GMT 3
Mank
Kwani where have you been? These songs that promise to kill and maim certain communities have been aired right here in Jukwaa causing divisive behavior much worse than calls for "uprooting of sangari or even the madoadoa" days! I admit I have been living under the rock because I did not see/hear them ... but to be honest I can be on Jukwaa quite long without clicking some links. I will try to dig them out for first hand info ... any body care to sneak me some leads through a private message? I see there is a bit to put me in the context right here.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Jun 25, 2012 22:16:46 GMT 3
Mank
Kwani where have you been? These songs that promise to kill and maim certain communities have been aired right here in Jukwaa causing divisive behavior much worse than calls for "uprooting of sangari or even the madoadoa" days! I admit I have been living under the rock because I did not see/hear them ... but to be honest I can be on Jukwaa quite long without clicking some links. I will try to dig them out for first hand info ... any body care to sneak me some leads through a private message? I see there is a bit to put me in the context right here. Mank, The music is at the beginning of this thread, the first post of the thread. I found it to be very inspiring and just fit for the campaign period.
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 25, 2012 22:46:50 GMT 3
Had it not been for the fact that "passing cloud" has problematic connotations for Kenyans, I would have described your youthful hero as a passing cloud. Oo I wouldn't consider it a bad word. --Passing cloud. Popular music is a cut-throat business, with hit releases every other month. That is why a man is only crowned King or god for a quarter [short period of time]. Pop is a business of 'passing clouds'! By the way Nyadundo's ground-breaking isanda gi hera, was suppose to have been isanda gi sianda! would you have an idea why the original title did not pass the censor? ;D
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 25, 2012 23:30:15 GMT 3
Had it not been for the fact that "passing cloud" has problematic connotations for Kenyans, I would have described your youthful hero as a passing cloud. Oo I wouldn't consider it a bad word. --Passing cloud. Popular music is a cut-throat business, with hit releases every other month. That is why a man is only crowned King or god for a quarter [short period of time]. Pop is a business of 'passing clouds'! By the way Nyadundo's ground-breaking isanda gi hera, was suppose to have been isanda gi sianda! would you have an idea why the original title did not pass the censor? ;D Be careful; you might get an invitation to take a vacation of a few months, even though the reality is that sianda always sandas many. To get back to ohangla .... one of Nyadundo's finest is about another jakaswanga!---a "praise song" of a type that seems to be vanishing.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jun 26, 2012 0:20:20 GMT 3
omwenga & jakaswanga,
The one thing we need to agree on is that hate is not a form of art. People cannot hide under the banner of artistic freedom to preach hatred and ethnic violence.
It would be funny if it was something being done in a vacuum but in Kenya tribal hatred has led to massacres, people being roasted in churches and in their homes, heads chopped off and more terrible things done and these are not things we read as part of our folklore. These are fresh things that we are still dealing with as a country. That is why some people are going to The Hague where they can listen to those songs for eternity.
So the issue is not about banning or punishing art. The isue is banning hate. Whether it is hate speech by irrate drunks in a bar, hate in books or music, or the endless hate speeches in political rallies, hate is hate and it is dangerous.
In Canada we have very strong anti hate speech laws and they too are based on real problems. This country has a history of very well organised hate groups. In fact here in Toronto a small group of racist hate group was operating legally for a long time. Then a group of progressive militants who were fed up with the government handling them with soft gloves decided to take the battle to them, burned some of their houses down and were ready to make them past tense.
Since then anti-hate laws are implemented. Hate groups and even sometimes people who only have strong views on hot issues like the Palestinian/Israeli conflict are rarely allowed in public forums or any such places.
I think it is important to understand that there is no such thing as freedom of hatred or to promote hatred for others just because you don't like them. You are free to be stupid and primitive in your thinking. Nobody is asking that stupidity be declared illegal. We wouldn't have enough jails to lock folk up. All we are saying is that if you use your stupidity to promote hartred of others you should not get away with on the grounds that you actually used an artistic form to express your hatred.
The other thing we are forgetting is that this is a case of art imitating life and both feeding on each other. The songs those folks are singing could very well be lifted from Uhuru's campaign speeches where ethnic chauvinism and tribal incitement have been promoted into a new religion after the CCC brought down the hammer. Those songs mimic the very words of the same leaders they are praising. Does that surprise anybody? Of course NOT. And that is the problem.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 26, 2012 1:08:46 GMT 3
Adongo: This is a topic on which I have had lengthy and interesting discussions with all sorts of people, and often I think it even goes beyond the law.
I remember one case in which some Muslims were threatening to kill a person who had supposedly insulted Mohamed. My wife was surprised when I said "serves them right", because it appeared not to fit with our "family values". What I told her was that freedom of expression does not necessarily extend to freedom to engage in dangerous insults. The Muslims were absolutely wrong to threaten the man, because what he did was in fact perfectly legal and the law had an obligation to protect him. But, at the end of the day, when you know that you are offending a person to the extent that he will kill himself (suicide style) in order to get you, is it really bright to keep going? Even in our personal and private lives, do we simply do or say as we please, or do we try to be sensitive to others? In order to create a decent society, we often must look beyond merely what is prohibited by the law. The law is just the extreme where external interference is needed to ensure restraint some from unduly harming others. It is not the starting point, nor is it the ideal point.
Another case I remember is one that was even tested in law; this was in an organization that I worked for for quite a few years. Some guy engaged in racial abuse, outside the working place, and in his own time. Word got back, and he was fired. He sued, citing his freedom of expression and that this had nothing to do with his job. He lost because he had not paid sufficient attention to the type of organization we were working for and, in particular, to the little clause in his contract that stated that he could be fired for "bringing the organization into disrepute". I should here add that my adopted Western country is very "liberal"---the most rights, to the most people, all the time, freedom of everything, whenever, however, etc.
I fully understand the rights of people to freely express themselves, the "need" for "avante-garde" artists to "stretch the envelope", etc. etc. etc. But, surely, things must be taken in context and with an understanding of what sort of society or country we are trying to build.
In talking to Kenyans, reading here and there, ... I am amazed that so little seemed to have been learned from the 2007-2008 PEV. There are those who think that was an aberration that could not happen again. What they do not seem to realize is that the seed was planted a long time ago and the plant has been growing steadily ever since. 2007-2008 was the flowering and things can get much worse. These things---Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Rwanda, etc.---don't just suddenly come out of nowhere. They always happen small small. Whether it's the lone serial killer or the glorified "national-leader" mass killer, nothing ever just appears out of the blue. If one looks carefully---and it can go back as early as childhood, whether it's the "childhood" of an individual, or of a group, or of a nation ...---it's never the case that it's suddenly popped up. The seeds are always there. So we have to be very vigilant about where Kenya is going and where it has been going for quite some time.
We can engage in all sorts of abstract discussions about this and that, but we all know the reality of today's Kenya. Even those musicians, when they are home alone, late at night, know exactly what they are doing. Even Uhuru knows exactly what it's all about, which is why, even while he is resurrecting GEMA, he has to lie through his teeth and condemn it.
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Post by mank on Jun 26, 2012 1:20:57 GMT 3
Unfortunately, unless a singer is outright asking listeners to take arms or kill so and so, it is hard to silence this kind of literature and yet grow a democracy.
The government has to confront this kind of risk from a broad approach, which should not even include silencing of singers. Any time a government attempts to silence opinions it is faced with growing enthusiasm to express those opinions and even more.
The response should be more to educate than to tame, although those who act violently must be held individually accountable for their actions. People should be talked to, about being reasonable citizens - who can listen to a painful song and not be pushed to action. Singers too can be talked to, to think deeply about their language.
We shall be on a slippery slope if we decide that art will be sensored because it is dangerous. Watch out what power you give government over issues as abstract as ideas or artistic expressions. It is not everything we dislike or are uneasy with that should be criminalized. To think otherwise one must believe (against everthing we know) that government is an all-caring and impartial enforcer of laws.
Watch out the booby traps of a democracy!
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 26, 2012 1:36:06 GMT 3
Unfortunately, unless a singer is outright asking listeners to take arms or kill so and so, it is hard to silence this kind of literature and yet grow a democracy. The government has to confront this kind of risk from a broad approach, which should not even include silencing of singers. Any time a government attempts to silence opinions it is faced with growing enthusiasm to express those opinions and even more. The response should be more to educate than to tame, although those who act violently must be held individually accountable for their actions. People should be talked to, about being reasonable citizens - who can listen to a painful song and not be pushed to action. Singers too can be talked to, to think deeply about their language. We shall be on a slippery slope if we decide that art will be sensored because it is dangerous. Watch out what power you give government over issues as abstract as ideas or artistic expressions. It is not everything we dislike or are uneasy with that should be criminalized. To think otherwise one must believe (against everthing we know) that government is an all-caring and impartial enforcer of laws. Watch out the booby traps of a democracy! This actually has very little to do with democracy. Hate is Hate. Given all the tribal hatreds that have long existed in Kenya, to argue or think that this is about democracy or freedom of anyting is a lie or illusion that will only lead us into worse problems. Any Kenyan who listens to such songs knows exactly what is going on, whether they admit it or not. As a matter of fact, as we have become more democratic, it has become less acceptable to say or be open about such things, whence UK's denying the river from which he draws water. We must recognize that this country has not even got beyond the 2007-2008 PEV, which sent us to the edge of the abyss. We must not delude ourselves with abstract ideas, noble though they may be. And even when we look to other countries where "democracy" and "freedom of expression" work, we must keep in mind the protections accorded to people are at the receiving end of "freedom of expression".We can either learn the hard way, or we can learn the easy way. For the latter, history provides many precedents, even in the 20th and 21st centuries.
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Post by Omwenga on Jun 26, 2012 1:38:43 GMT 3
I fully understand the rights of people to freely express themselves, the "need" for "avante-garde" artists to "stretch the envelope", etc. etc. etc. But, surely, things must be taken in context and with an understanding of what sort of society or country we are trying to build. In talking to Kenyans, reading here and there, ... I am amazed that so little seemed to have been learned from the 2007-2008 PEV. There are those who think that was an aberration that could not happen again. What they do not seem to realize is that the seed was planted a long time ago and the plant has been growing steadily ever since. 2007-2008 was the flowering and things can get much worse. These things---Nazi Germany, Pol Pot's Cambodia, Rwanda, etc.---don't just suddenly come out of nowhere. They always happen small small. Whether it's the lone serial killer or the glorified "national-leader" mass killer, nothing ever just appears out of the blue. If one looks carefully---and it can go back as early as childhood, whether it's the "childhood" of an individual, or of a group, or of a nation ...---it's never the case that it's suddenly popped up. The seeds are always there. So we have to be very vigilant about where Kenya is going and where it has been going for quite some time. We can engage in all sorts of abstract discussions about this and that, but we all know the reality of today's Kenya. Even those musicians, when they are home alone, late at night, know exactly what they are doing. Even Uhuru knows exactly what it's all about, which is why, even while he is resurrecting GEMA, he has to lie through his teeth and condemn it. Otishotish,I completely agree with what you have said. The only thing I would add is "is wrong" after "they [musicians] know what they are doing and after "Uhuru knows exactly what [the musician's songs are about]" for emphasis and clarity that these people know exactly the odiousness of what they are up-to and are hoping they can get away with it but they won't, shield from others as they may try the divisive mongering. Fortunately, unlike the past where these types of things would circulate quietly within communities, not anymore with the advent of the Internet and other alternative media, namely, blogs the culprits are forced to either embrace or condemn as in this case even though Uhuru was rather coy in his condemnation: he issued a blanket condemnation against all musicians in all communities who may be engaged in the same type of condemnable subtle and not so subtle divisive mongering.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 26, 2012 3:26:21 GMT 3
Omwenga: Yes, absolutey right about the emphasis and clarity.
I really do hope you are right in what you say in your second paragraph. A lot of what I hear and read---I think Jukwaa is atypical, even if a good example--gives me much worry.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jun 26, 2012 4:16:36 GMT 3
Unfortunately, unless a singer is outright asking listeners to take arms or kill so and so, it is hard to silence this kind of literature and yet grow a democracy. The government has to confront this kind of risk from a broad approach, which should not even include silencing of singers. Any time a government attempts to silence opinions it is faced with growing enthusiasm to express those opinions and even more. The response should be more to educate than to tame, although those who act violently must be held individually accountable for their actions. People should be talked to, about being reasonable citizens - who can listen to a painful song and not be pushed to action. Singers too can be talked to, to think deeply about their language. We shall be on a slippery slope if we decide that art will be sensored because it is dangerous. Watch out what power you give government over issues as abstract as ideas or artistic expressions. It is not everything we dislike or are uneasy with that should be criminalized. To think otherwise one must believe (against everthing we know) that government is an all-caring and impartial enforcer of laws. Watch out the booby traps of a democracy! mank,Finally you seem to have listened to the songs and still claim that unless someone asks for others to be killed it is OK. Now I ask you what does this song say? Don't they ask for people to be killed? Have people not been killed for the same reasons these singers are talking about, namely ethnic chauvinism? Do we want more? If so then let's so say with authority as the singers are saying. I like people who are straight foward Here are the lyrics of the song: Hague Bound – Muigai Wa Njoroge and MuhikoTranslated snippets: Question: If it was you who is being pushed to The Hague what would you do? Answer: I would call my family and divide up my property and then ask my mother to pray for me. Question: What if you knew that Hague you are being pushed there by an uncircumcised man who wants to push you there and take over your wife and all your wealth? A man who can do anything to ensure you are in problems. Answer: There it is better to die. Things for a man are not governed by an uncircumcised man. I would kill him. Its better they increase my charges.Question: What would you tell your crying supporters as you are being shipped to Hague? Answer: I would tell them to pray for me and know I am being persecuted for my love of my community. Question: When you get to Hague how you would ensure the white man does not cheat you? Answer: I would ask for proceedings to be done in Kikuyu. Question: When on the dock what would you be thinking of the uncircumcised man who is the source of your predicament? Answer: I would ask God to forgive him. I would also ask that he gets circumcised so that he matures mentally. I would also ask Kenyans to be very wary of that man. mank,Sometimes defending the indefensible can be a very hard job. As you have read here in Jukwaa some people are very inspired by these songs and I am not talking about folks at the Mathare hospital. But let me say this for the blogger called moderatekenyan. With his or her honest look at hatred in these songs and the willingness to challenge it without apologies he or she has caught the imagination of many Kenyans. This is quite refreshing actually. Even Uhuru Kenyatta who made speeches very similar to the sentiments in those songs has been forced to condemn them at least during the day. In just about every Kenyan website the story is raging. It is an interesting debate. In the more deranged websites where hatred is a formidable currency in debates and the yelling they do in those places the hate mongers are quite comfortable with this. There are a few folks there trying to drill sense into them but it might be much easier flying on a donkey into outer space than putting any sense into some of those lunatics. In fora like the KPTJ where normal and sensible people address issues the matter has been taken with absolute seriousness and folks from all ethnic groups are unequivocally condemning the hate mongering business we see not just in these songs but in the political developments and culture of the day. That is good. In jukwaa, we are a mixed house. We have our lunatics and we let them be. That is democracy I suppose. It seems that was your main concern.
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Post by mank on Jun 26, 2012 4:23:45 GMT 3
Unfortunately, unless a singer is outright asking listeners to take arms or kill so and so, it is hard to silence this kind of literature and yet grow a democracy.
The government has to confront this kind of risk from a broad approach, which should not even include silencing of singers. Any time a government attempts to silence opinions it is faced with growing enthusiasm to express those opinions and even more.
The response should be more to educate than to tame, although those who act violently must be held individually accountable for their actions. People should be talked to, about being reasonable citizens - who can listen to a painful song and not be pushed to action. Singers too can be talked to, to think deeply about their language.
We shall be on a slippery slope if we decide that art will be sensored because it is dangerous. Watch out what power you give government over issues as abstract as ideas or artistic expressions. It is not everything we dislike or are uneasy with that should be criminalized. To think otherwise one must believe (against everthing we know) that government is an all-caring and impartial enforcer of laws.
Watch out the booby traps of a democracy! This actually has very little to do with democracy. Hate is Hate. Given all the tribal hatreds that have long existed in Kenya, to argue or think that this is about democracy or freedom of anyting is a lie or illusion that will only lead us into worse problems. Any Kenyan who listens to such songs knows exactly what is going on, whether they admit it or not. As a matter of fact, as we have become more democratic, it has become less acceptable to say or be open about such things, whence UK's denying the river from which he draws water. We must recognize that this country has not even got beyond the 2007-2008 PEV, which sent us to the edge of the abyss. We must not delude ourselves with abstract ideas, noble though they may be. And even when we look to other countries where "democracy" and "freedom of expression" work, we must keep in mind the protections accorded to people are at the receiving end of "freedom of expression".We can either learn the hard way, or we can learn the easy way. For the latter, history provides many precedents, even in the 20th and 21st centuries. [/size] [/quote] I would not have bothered to contribute here if I expected that we are looking at this only as a practice occuring only in the pro-Uhuru side. I would not expect objectivity in such a conversation. I assumed the other songs I have heard, in Languages that I do not understand, have epithets that could be classified with the Kikuyu songs that I have listened to. The thing is when I listen to the songs I have found here, I do not find anything as alarming as the songs are being made here. I am finding people expressing hard feelings about what is going on around them, and what they think about it. I do not have to like everything they are saying, but they do not have to keep quite because I do not like it either. I have heard nothing that I would call "incitation to violence". Of course I have not heard everything there is to hear, but I am making a distintion between uncomfortable noise and criminal noise. The other day in the US there was this ugly scene where republicans staged a toilet as Obama's office, and it was riddled with bullet holes. It was irritating, and alarming. It suggested to me that the Republicans were intentionally enticing some loyal lunatics to try their chance at the president. It would have made sense to say "those behind the scene should be tried for incitation to a criminal act." But no one made that call, except the action was widely condemned. Of course if they called on another to go do what I thought is what they were suggesting with their art, then I would be thinking they should all be rounded up and tried. What they did just causes discomfort.
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Post by OtishOtish on Jun 26, 2012 5:06:01 GMT 3
And even when we look to other countries where "democracy" and "freedom of expression" work, we must keep in mind the protections accorded to people are at the receiving end of "freedom of expression". [/size] [/quote][/color][/b] The other day in the US there was this ugly scene where republicans staged a toilet as Obama's office, and it was riddled with bullet holes. It was irritating, and alarming. It suggested to me that the Republicans were intentionally enticing some loyal lunatics to try their chance at the president. It would have made sense to say "those behind the scene should be tried for incitation to a criminal act." But no one made that call, except the action was widely condemned. Of course if they called on another to go do what I thought is what they were suggesting with their art, then I would be thinking they should all be rounded up and tried. What they did just causes discomfort.[/quote] Yes, discomfort. And the law would take a very dim view if they went beyond mere discomfort or uncomfortable noise or criminal noise. Now, let's look at Kenya. Violence around elections has been going on for quite some time. In the 1990s, it "went to another level"; in fact one person who brought serious money-making and university-level organization to electoral violence now finds himself in rather hot soup. Less than five years ago, Kenya reached an unusually high level of discomfort. Over a thousand people were killed, more than half a million displaced, women and children were burnt alive in churches, men had their members cut off, women were raped ... I should not have to go on. HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUNISHED OVER THAT? WHAT GUARANTEE OF SECURITY SHOULD THE AVERAGE KENYAN FEEL? Slice and dice it whichever way you like, but we all know how we got there. And a great part of it has to do with tribal hatreds that are always being nurtured and then used for evil ends. We can lie to ourselves all we want, but if we really want to change our country, then at some point we will have to deal squarely with the truth. You may say that you did not hear any "incitation to violence"; but you know how it is, we know how it is, you know that we know, and we know that you know. With all that knowing, why bother with the b.s.? You mention the US and this and that. At election-time, I'd rather be in the USA than in Kenya. I know I won't get killed or get my dick cut off because of how I voted or what my perceived connection is to some candidate.
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Post by mank on Jun 26, 2012 5:33:04 GMT 3
[/color][/b] The other day in the US there was this ugly scene where republicans staged a toilet as Obama's office, and it was riddled with bullet holes. It was irritating, and alarming. It suggested to me that the Republicans were intentionally enticing some loyal lunatics to try their chance at the president. It would have made sense to say "those behind the scene should be tried for incitation to a criminal act." But no one made that call, except the action was widely condemned. Of course if they called on another to go do what I thought is what they were suggesting with their art, then I would be thinking they should all be rounded up and tried. What they did just causes discomfort.[/quote] Yes, discomfort. And the law would take a very dim view if they went beyond mere discomfort or uncomfortable noise or criminal noise.
Now, let's look at Kenya. Violence around elections has been going on for quite some time. In the 1990s, it "went to another level"; in fact one person who brought serious money-making and university-level organization to electoral violence now finds himself in rather hot soup.
Less than five years ago, Kenya reached an unusually high level of discomfort. Over a thousand people were killed, more than half a million displaced, women and children were burnt alive in churches, men had their members cut off, women were raped ... I should not have to go on.
HOW MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PUNISHED OVER THAT? WHAT GUARANTEE OF SECURITY SHOULD THE AVERAGE KENYAN FEEL?
Slice and dice it whichever way you like, but we all know how we got there. And a great part of it has to do with tribal hatreds that are always being nurtured and then used for evil ends. We can lie to ourselves all we want, but if we really want to change our country, then at some point we will have to deal squarely with the truth. You may say that you did not hear any "incitation to violence"; but you know how it is, we know how it is, you know that we know, and we know that you know. With all that knowing, why bother with the b.s.?
You mention the US and this and that. At election-time, I'd rather be in the USA than in Kenya. I know I won't get killed or get my dick cut off because of how I voted or what my perceived connection is to some candidate. [/quote] Well, trying to silence all opinionated expressions will only be a different way of starting it up. Here on Jukwaa we have had lots of expressions that are more hateful than the songs I heard by following one link from this thread, and I have not heard anyone saying that those who uttered them were inciting anything. Cool down and just accept the fact that others have just as much right to express themselves as you do ... you see how you are addressing me on this one? The songs I heard from the link I mention were not as provoking as your language.
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Post by mank on Jun 26, 2012 5:52:55 GMT 3
Unfortunately, unless a singer is outright asking listeners to take arms or kill so and so, it is hard to silence this kind of literature and yet grow a democracy.
The government has to confront this kind of risk from a broad approach, which should not even include silencing of singers. Any time a government attempts to silence opinions it is faced with growing enthusiasm to express those opinions and even more.
The response should be more to educate than to tame, although those who act violently must be held individually accountable for their actions. People should be talked to, about being reasonable citizens - who can listen to a painful song and not be pushed to action. Singers too can be talked to, to think deeply about their language.
We shall be on a slippery slope if we decide that art will be sensored because it is dangerous. Watch out what power you give government over issues as abstract as ideas or artistic expressions. It is not everything we dislike or are uneasy with that should be criminalized. To think otherwise one must believe (against everthing we know) that government is an all-caring and impartial enforcer of laws.
Watch out the booby traps of a democracy! mank,
Finally you seem to have listened to the songs and still claim that unless someone asks for others to be killed it is OK.
Now I ask you what does this song say? Don't they ask for people to be killed? Have people not been killed for the same reasons these singers are talking about, namely ethnic chauvinism? Do we want more? If so then let's so say with authority as the singers are saying. I like people who are straight foward
Here are the lyrics of the song:
Hague Bound – Muigai Wa Njoroge and Muhiko
Translated snippets:
Question: If it was you who is being pushed to The Hague what would you do?
Answer: I would call my family and divide up my property and then ask my mother to pray for me.
Question: What if you knew that Hague you are being pushed there by an uncircumcised man who wants to push you there and take over your wife and all your wealth? A man who can do anything to ensure you are in problems.
Answer: There it is better to die. Things for a man are not governed by an uncircumcised man. I would kill him. Its better they increase my charges.
Question: What would you tell your crying supporters as you are being shipped to Hague?
Answer: I would tell them to pray for me and know I am being persecuted for my love of my community.
Question: When you get to Hague how you would ensure the white man does not cheat you?
Answer: I would ask for proceedings to be done in Kikuyu.
Question: When on the dock what would you be thinking of the uncircumcised man who is the source of your predicament?
Answer: I would ask God to forgive him. I would also ask that he gets circumcised so that he matures mentally. I would also ask Kenyans to be very wary of that man.
mank,
Sometimes defending the indefensible can be a very hard job. As you have read here in Jukwaa some people are very inspired by these songs and I am not talking about folks at the Mathare hospital.
But let me say this for the blogger called moderatekenyan. With his or her honest look at hatred in these songs and the willingness to challenge it without apologies he or she has caught the imagination of many Kenyans. This is quite refreshing actually.
Even Uhuru Kenyatta who made speeches very similar to the sentiments in those songs has been forced to condemn them at least during the day.
In just about every Kenyan website the story is raging. It is an interesting debate. In the more deranged websites where hatred is a formidable currency in debates and the yelling they do in those places the hate mongers are quite comfortable with this. There are a few folks there trying to drill sense into them but it might be much easier flying on a donkey into outer space than putting any sense into some of those lunatics.
In fora like the KPTJ where normal and sensible people address issues the matter has been taken with absolute seriousness and folks from all ethnic groups are unequivocally condemning the hate mongering business we see not just in these songs but in the political developments and culture of the day. That is good.
In jukwaa, we are a mixed house. We have our lunatics and we let them be. That is democracy I suppose. It seems that was your main concern. Adongo, AS I have said, I do not necessarily like the music, but I do not like many things I read on Jukwaa either ... or what I hear politicians say. I do not oppose condemnation of the literature. What I warn about is forceful gagging. These things won't go away if the government trys gagging. They will only take another more dangerous dimension, and get invigorated by the sense of being an opposition to power. So, my main concern is not just democracy as you suggest - it is that trying silencing the singers could heighten the hatred and lose democracy. Plus opportunist governments will use the gagging laws to impose themselves unnecessarily. And by the way, no, I do not read from the snippets you have posted that the song is asking anyone to kill anybody else.
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Post by Fahari on Jun 26, 2012 8:30:55 GMT 3
The hypocrisy on jukwaa knows no bounds apparently its perfectly alright to suggest that kikuyus are baboons as was done on the "bim en bim" number and strangely not a word of condemnation has come from those who were pouring fire and brimstone on the kikuyu musicians. I have the feeling that they wish Jakswanga would take a long vacation and we never get a full translation and unfortunately my lakeside friends have taken a vow of omerta on this one tsk tsk
The bottom line is that there are no innocents in kenya!!
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Post by stibin on Jun 26, 2012 11:05:42 GMT 3
Mank, Are you suggesting that stopping hate speech is tantamount to gagging and therefore a danger to democracy? I really don’t see why it is so difficult to accept there is always some sort of censorship in all forms of public communication. Whether in the business of writing, filming, performing e.t.c there is always a limit on the information you can feed to the public and I honestly don’t think music should be an exception. Right here in Jukwaa, for example, there are rules that govern what one can write about.
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Post by b6k on Jun 26, 2012 11:18:42 GMT 3
Fahari, if you can't beat the omerta, Google it. Here's a link to a translation found online with a swift Google search followed by the "full"translation as seen on the link. May the Tractor plough on ;-) : www.africambiance.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8372&sid=508d0c66b60044f5636a3bbb394ecae1&view=printAuthor: Wuod Kwatch [ Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:03 pm ] Post subject: Re: The Song That Landed Him in The Slammer tutulu Here is the translation - finally oh yes At this time that I am speaking to you Please listen to me People of the lake Now, I am speaking to all of you,, the wild game in the wilderness , to the family of birds , those of the fish family in the water, and to the creatures which crawl on their bellies. I want to tell you this Anything man has built using his hands, be it a ship, an airplane, a house, a motor bike, in the end it will cease to function and break down. That’s its destiny. And what Jehovah God has created, be it man, wild game, a flying creature, a creature in the water, a human being, in the end it will die. There is a type of wild animal created to resemble man, but arent human at all. One of them is the baboon, and then we have others like the chimpanzee, monkeys that look like amazingly like human beings. But they are not human beings at all. Now let me address baboons Baboons are baboons They may be be domesticated baboons, they may be wild baboons, but it doesn’t matter, they still retain their inbred ape-like heritage. You may cook for 'him', you may give 'him' ripe bananas and papaya fuit, but when you are serving the food or fruits, the baboon will try to snatch it by force, and claim it. And as you are feeding it, the baboon looks you straight in the eye, so it can take more food, some for later. And when the baboon sees that you want to share the food with another being, it will instantly want to kill you. So a baboon is a baboon. And with the baboons, there is never a time when the well being and personal wealth/belongings of another being makes 'him' content with his. But some of these baboons we have helped , were in the house of monitor lizard and yet others were in the place of healing (visiting with healers) - ……………….note how DO Misiani takes the rather long pause at 2.51min mark as he deeplyi contemplates his message about these ungrateful baboon ingrates. DO Misiani continues…… And then the baboon left his habitat, and came to live with us, amidst midst of our dogs and sheep. and it messed us up. We had helped the monkeys when the baboons were busy killing them, You now hear the monkey calling calling his wife 'Akelo, Akelo, pick up the basket' and the wife demures and replies 'no I wont'. One day I was strolling in the wild bushes I met a baboon who had been mercilessly beaten up by the monkeys. He had fractured neck and limbs. He was left for dead, and like a good samaritan I took him to hospital and then to my place and nursed him to health and gave him place to stay. In return I asked the baboon to look after my homestead. The baboon was like a baby who could not even clean up after themselves for personal hygiene purposes. But after a while the baboon summoned his 'people' (fellow baboons, i.e) who lived in the wild, who were voiceless and powerless, and they now run roughshod over my in my homestead! They are eating up my bananas and other fruits recklessly. And when the baboons see me its war. They shout to each other - ooh ohh ohh. Baboons are baboons!!!. They have now taken over the land. Its like they have got independence and freedom they never had. They can now talk and say anything they want (talk smack he he he). Man, those past years, when we were running around, looking for these fruits, where were these baboons? Where were they? As I am talking to you now, I am a 'small' man who cant help much, and i dont have the ability to do much. I am not respected that much. I thought I was helping out the people and the land when I helped out the baboon, but I ended up spoiling for people. But let me tell you, fish spawn only fish, and animal is an animal and gives birth to the same animal. I never heard of a cow cross breeding with donkey, or a goat with a sheep, or a dog with a pig or a buffalo with rhino. A baboon is a baboon. Baboons do not give birth to a monkey. (He then gives examples of different animals and birds and fish that only spawns the same breed) DO Misiani then concludes by saying that although he is not respected nor wanted and does not matter in the big scheme of things, he will continue talking to us. He says he talks a lot and sings a lot of songs without meaning. He says you may disrespect his message, but he is the one who helps the land, and the Tractor still ploughs the land. So we are O.K he says. Then he goes into the 'sha sha sha' tail end of the song. This video is a masterpiece, extremely well done. It shows the various animals he is referring to as he sings/talks, it captures his nuanced emotion as he narrates this master piece. The animals obviously are a metaphor for the greedy land grabbers who are still in power today in Kenya. How is it that the son of the first president and his family owns land the size of the province where I come from, in which 4-5 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS, and wild life find sustenance? How can one family of less than 100 people own that much land? Unfathomable greed indeed. But as DO Misiani says, all that is man made will perish! The tractor reference in the last portion of the song is obvious to any Kenyan with two brain cells wired together. Misiani says that the land - our country, is O.K because the tractor still ploughs. What a song. I attended many live concerts by DO Misiani. I never recognized his genius till I left the country and started parsing his lyrics. He is a master story teller, a satirist with searing wit, and he speaks in unfathomable parables and metaphors in a lot of cases. There are some animals he mentioned in luo that I am unable to 'translate' into English Soko mutwe?
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Post by stibin on Jun 26, 2012 13:10:30 GMT 3
Sincerely I can’t detect hate speech in this mastery piece by Omisiani! (I am not the hypocrite someone talked about).
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Post by kamalet on Jun 26, 2012 13:13:31 GMT 3
Mank, Are you suggesting that stopping hate speech is tantamount to gagging and therefore a danger to democracy? I really don’t see why it is so difficult to accept there is always some sort of censorship in all forms of public communication. Whether in the business of writing, filming, performing e.t.c there is always a limit on the information you can feed to the public and I honestly don’t think music should be an exception. Right here in Jukwaa, for example, there are rules that govern what one can write about. Stibin Just what is you definition of hate speech and how does that fit in with the songs? My definition of hate speech is when I say because swazi girls go bare breasted, they are primitive and should have their boobs chopped off. In this case I am hating on the swazi and suggesting harm. What is yours?
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