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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 20:42:32 GMT 3
Ain't nothing funny about these cases, but we can afford a laugh or two when reading such: Also, contrary to what Uhuruto proponents say, there wasn't anything that came out of the Ruto/Sang trial to allow anyone of them to gloat gloat gloat about how they are winning. I couldn't tell how the case will unfold given the two days of hearings. Rather than wait, they want to make out as though Ruto (they don't care about Sang) is already winning the case. Not so. I suggest that you hold your horses, don't show off too much and don't think that just because you say something enough times, it becomes the truth. While the 20 or so MPs who accompanied Deputy President William Ruto the Hague were spending their evening hours up and about in various places of interest, Kiharu MP Irungu Kang'ata was making arrangements to attend a reggae concert by Gyptian, the Jamaican roots reggae/dancehall singer who was scheduled to perform Saturday at a club in Rotterdam which is 29 kilometers from the Hague where he and other MPs are staying. Kang'ata was overhead telling his colleagues that he had assured his wife that he would not visit some 'special streets' in Amsterdam but would pull all the stops to attend the concert which will be taking place on Saturday, the same day they are scheduled to leave for home. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-135714/corridors-power#sthash.Y32HVEr2.dpufStill in Hague, Kapseret MP Oscar Sudi could afford to doze off in the courtroom public gallery despite being on the front row, a few metres from the judges. Sudi leaned on his seat and dozed off forcing the security guards to come and tap him on the shoulder to wake him up. He was the fourth on the front row after Ruto's wife Rachel, daughter June and Kenya's ambassador to Netherlands Rose Makena. Several MPs also had to be told to keep quiet as they loudly chatted inside the courtroom. - An exuberant first time MP is a distraught man after the leader of his party in Parliament stopped him from making the 'solidarity trip to the Hague.' The man was among the most vocal when it came to the discussion on what they should do. He had declared that he and other MPs would camp in the Netherlands for as long as the case was being heard. His overall excitement at the prospects of the trip seemed to have raised concerns among his party leadership who summoned him and told him not to make the trip. He was given no reasons for this and has now retreated to drowning his disappointment in drink. - See more at: www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-135714/corridors-power#sthash.Y32HVEr2.dpuf
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Post by mank on Sept 12, 2013 20:55:22 GMT 3
Fortunately, KK, no Jukwaa members are before the court at the Hague. I don't know where gloating for "winning" is. Personally I get a kick when I see unfoldings that seem to validate my projections. It doesn't mean I pray that Ruto wins ... he's still suspect, and I am eager to hear the truth .. . not coached fabrications. One can of course be faulted for analyzing speck in a lake of information ... the case is just began. More interestingly the position of the OTP has not been given much light here (I mean by audio, because I don't have the time for reading all this lit). Here then is a start:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 21:31:31 GMT 3
Fortunately, KK, no Jukwaa members are before the court at the Hague. I don't know where gloating for "winning" is. Personally I get a kick when I see unfoldings that seem to validate my projections. It doesn't mean I pray that Ruto wins ... he's still suspect, and I am eager to hear the truth .. . not coached fabrications. One can of course be faulted for analyzing speck in a lake of information ... the case is just began. More interestingly the position of the OTP has not been given much light here (I mean by audio, because I don't have the time for reading all this lit). Here then is a start:
mankThere's lots of gloating going on. Funny you haven't noticed. Oh the case is lost, oh the OTP has no evidence oh, oh, oh. Please, I'll wait to see how the case unfolds. Nothing in the videos you've posted leaves me thinking that the OTP hasn't got a case. I assume that they didn't get those jobs being stupid and will surely provide the necessary evidence to back up their claims. Should they fail, then we'll know that the ICC is messed up and can't help stop violations anywhere in the world. Then your peeps will be home free and Kenya will continue as Kenya has for the past 50yrs. The image of those 50yrs of independent Kenya,conjure up the worst nightmare one can have.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 21:48:54 GMT 3
Meanwhile, the man ICC loves to hate, Dr. David Matsanga is on fire: After today's witnesses' debacle, I must say the man knows a thing or two about these cases. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ mankthis right here is an example of the gloating going on with TNA quarters. At least publicly, bravado is what they've decided is a useful public relations strategy seeing as humility is a notion that doesn't exist for them. God, and with people like Matsanga being the public face of team "I hate the ICC for calling me on my shit. Don't they know who the fack we are?, we'll just have to see how that goes.
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Post by mank on Sept 12, 2013 22:13:46 GMT 3
Fortunately, KK, no Jukwaa members are before the court at the Hague. I don't know where gloating for "winning" is. Personally I get a kick when I see unfoldings that seem to validate my projections. It doesn't mean I pray that Ruto wins ... he's still suspect, and I am eager to hear the truth .. . not coached fabrications. One can of course be faulted for analyzing speck in a lake of information ... the case is just began. More interestingly the position of the OTP has not been given much light here (I mean by audio, because I don't have the time for reading all this lit). Here then is a start: ... There's lots of gloating going on. Funny you haven't noticed. Oh the case is lost, oh the OTP has no evidence oh, oh, oh. Please, I'll wait to see how the case unfolds. Nothing in the videos you've posted leaves me thinking that the OTP hasn't got a case. I assume that they didn't get those jobs being stupid and will surely provide the necessary evidence to back up their claims. Should they fail, then we'll know that the ICC is messed up and can't help stop violations anywhere in the world. Then your peeps will be home free and Kenya will continue as Kenya has for the past 50yrs. The image of those 50yrs of independent Kenya,conjure up the worst nightmare one can have. Kathure, I did not post those clips so you can say that OTP does not have a case. Quite in the contrary, I put it there as an exclamation that there are two sides to the case, each of which needs attention if you want to know how the case is shaping out. Listening to one side of the story one trivially comes out feeling like the other side is outwrestled. Now, those are not just any clips, but exactly the words and visuals to the court.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2013 22:21:13 GMT 3
Kathure, I did not post those clips so you can say that OTP does not have a case. Quite in the contrary, I put it there as an exclamation that there are two sides to the case, and that listening to one side of the story you trivially come out feeling like the other side is outwrestled. We've waited all these years, and we'll just have to wait a bit more. Once again (being as I'm so nice) let me caution the gloaters. Take it easy, we shall see if Wanjiku will be victorious or whether we'll have to keep trying to get any powerful people in Kenya held accountable for their machinations.
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 12, 2013 22:21:47 GMT 3
As we all may be aware, the Hague trials of the Kenyan cases kicked off today. I was lucky to listen-in to the last minutes of the opening statements of the parties involved at the ICC's Ruto and Sang case, and to say that there is a case at the Hague for the two is to be very dishonest with oneself, even though very early in the day. The picture painted today with the opening statements is that of a court and its operatives on trial. I was particularly taken a back by the OTP's request for a week's adjournment apparently to allow her first witness travel from Nairobi to the Hague. This coming from an office that has insisted on starting the trials immediately and talked very strongly against any delays caught everyone by surprise and obviously spoke to the difficulties of holding a lie together for long. The coming days will be very interesting as the future of this court seems to largely depend on the Kenyan cases. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu, having watched the first day's proceedings (aka opening statements) I must admit I am considering drafting a lengthy apology letter to you & WSR. Somewhere in the archives of Jukwaa I intimated that UK should take on the services of one Karim Kahn as his counsel if he wants to beat this rap. His current mzee QC, although very sound in matters of law isn't digital enough, or aggressive enough to handle his case. His assistant, the young blonde one (who is not a QC if I recall Sadik's input back in the day), is much better at putting points across than her senior. Now that WSR hired Karim Kahn (KK ), he is already appearing to be innocent of all charges against him. Bensouda was left to initially rolling her eyes in consternation against attacks of her office (with special mention to her predecessor, one Louis Moreno Ocampo) not investigating the KE situation independently as any decent OTP should do & then eventually wondering what freight train just hit her! That said, it was a brilliant day for the WSR defense I always assumed would be doomed. Kahn's use of the OTP's own video evidence (which they used without sound) that he later presented with sound against the OTP proving that WSR was pro-cosmopolitanism in the Rift Valley & not a warmongering Kalenjin warrior was a clincher! He also clearly has a better grasp of KE politico-socio-dynamics when he expanded the cause of the conflict beyond a two dimensional Kalenjin vs Kikuyu thing to a general hodge-podge, multi-ethnic competition for limited resources that covers even Kisiis, Luhya's & other communities on both sides of the divide KE. What people like Njakip need to realize is as a defense lawyer all he need do is sow the seeds of doubt (aka show reasonable doubt). I don't think that Bensouda has the evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt (& this is purely on opening statements & preliminary evidence) when you compare the two. Karim Kahn's only moment of weakness was when he aired a video clip (& he relied too much on Jeff Koinange "On The Bench" clips) of Ruto talking about owning only the 100 acres he acquired illegally from IDP Mr Muteshi that he recently gave back after paying a fine. All in all, it seems the KE dynamic duo have done their homework & attempted to fill in the gaps (such as correcting the 100 acre land acquisition in our revamped KE judiciary recently) before going into the ICC trials. As I have said before, Kenyans are running rings around this predominantly western run/owned court... Moonki, over to you.... b6k, Let us keep things in perspective here before this thread degenerates into a gang-bash on the head of Njakip! You people are going on as if his wish is to see Uhuruto nailed by Bensouda! I always understood him to mean he wanted them to appear before a competent and independent court, and if they make their case well, then acquittal be it! But the tenure of your post, or jibe, seems to be, Moonki, or is it Njakip, wants these people roasted. NB: Sang: as somebody who believes in freedom of expression, and is ready to appreciate the excesses real or imaginary as a necessary evil, I believe Sang should not even have appeared in the envelop of 20. It is a travesty! it is pure persecution!
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 12, 2013 22:35:19 GMT 3
If the PEV in the rift-valley WAS NOT ORGANISED, IN WHICH CASE SPONTANEOUS. --How do we explain its mechanical efficiency? But if it was organised, by who then? assuming it was not Ruto and his ODM bandwagon? And if it was organised, would it not mean the ethnic cleansing was independent [in plan] of the Elections of 2007? since the rigging could not have been foreseen in the period of planning, long before the elections. So, if the elections had not been rigged, what would have happened to the plans? Jakaswanga, if you are going to do anything well then you must practice. Having seen land clashes in RVP every 5 years coinciding with the election cycle since 1992, wouldn't you say some sort of organized mass action could be efficient by 2007? Just musing.... This is an intriguing hypothesis, b6k, the earlier clashes as dry-runs, imbuing collective wisdom which then is banked, waiting for large-scale occasion materialise into perfection! A mass instinctively recognising what to do!? Would the court buy it? and what do we do with all these names of ex-Moi servicemen attending war-council-like meetings? fiction?
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Post by mank on Sept 12, 2013 23:33:02 GMT 3
We've waited all these years, and we'll just have to wait a bit more. Once again (being as I'm so nice) let me caution the gloaters. Take it easy, we shall see if Wanjiku will be victorious or whether we'll have to keep trying to get any powerful people in Kenya held accountable for their machinations. Kathure, We have indeed waited many years ... or if the allegations of "the gloaters" are fact, we have been going the wrong direction all these years and deceiving the victims. Whether this case presents an opportunity of Victory to Wanjiku is an issue in question. Both Ruto and Sang have so far claimed that they are also victims of the violence, in their case, through the unmitigated muscle of the OTP. If that is true, then this case is really not a test of whether Wanjiku can get victory against powerful people. To claim otherwise is to assume that the accused are guilty and the only question therefore is whether the court will conclude so. Such a position is one that is often by people who don't care about the details - who don't really seek reason but wish to go by cliches. We are in the process I was waiting for. This is the process I value more than the end. I don't just wait for the decision by the court. I want to listen to everything the court hears, so that at the end, I am not just taking a court's position, but also using the opportunity the court has given me (all of us), to follow the case. The court is public, and is even extending its process to youtube. I took off this afternoon just so I can follow the case. Right now I am listening to Katwa Kigen. He's hard to follow ... I hope the court gets a transcript. Nevertheless, his defense for Sang sounds firm and a tough challenge to OTP. ... Once again ( being as I'm so nice) let me .... Bwaaaha aha ha haa ... that choked me a little. Could you set me up like that again tomorrow, as a weekend treat?
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Post by mank on Sept 12, 2013 23:46:02 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, ... Would the court buy it? and what do we do with all these names of ex-Moi servicemen attending war-council-like meetings? fiction? Amigo, nudge me when evidence to such is aired in the court. I am not judging that there were no such meetings, rather I am implying that I am tired of waiting for OTP to bring up anything that authoritatively backs the charges ... actually I remember someone pointing out an askari to me in Nakuru, and saying "he is one of those who used to go kill people in the 2007 violence." So, it seems to me that there are facts on the ground that should nail someone on the court's cross ... if it is Ruto/Sang, I don't know. But if OTP does not rise up to connecting Ruto/Sang to the apparent facts on the ground, then it will be a clear failure and abuse of office on the part of the OTP. Perhaps we should not submit to the temptation to claim that simply because OTP has not met the expectation so far, then it cannot meet it ... but its human to grow impatient. ... fortunately it won't be long before they have to say it all or fold up.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 0:17:51 GMT 3
Kathure, We have indeed waited many years ... or if the allegations of "the gloaters" are fact, we have been going the wrong direction all these years and deceiving the victims. Whether this case presents an opportunity of Victory to Wanjiku is an issue in question. Both Ruto and Sang have so far claimed that they are also victims of the violence, in their case, through the unmitigated muscle of the OTP. If that is true, then this case is really not a test of whether Wanjiku can get victory against powerful people. To claim otherwise is to assume that the accused are guilty and the only question therefore is whether the court will conclude so. Such a position is one that is often by people who don't care about the details - who don't really seek reason but wish to go by clishes. We are in the process I was waiting for. This is the process I value more than the end. I don't just wait for the decision by the court. I want to listen to everything the court hears, so that at the end, I am not just taking a court's position, but also using the opportunity the court has given me (all of us), to follow the case. The court is public, and is even extending its process to youtube. I took off this afternoon just so I can follow the case. Right now I am listening to Katwa Kigen. He's hard to follow ... I hope the court gets a transcript. Nevertheless, his defense for Sang sounds firm and a tough challenge to OTP. I long for justice. That is follow the legal process and let's see where it takes us. What I'm trying to highlight (as have many others), is the fact that rich and powerful people in Kenya do not get held accountable by anyone let alone the courts. Remember that is how this case ends up @ the ICC. Which brings me to the fact that Ruto for one wanted just what he's gotten. Be careful what you wish for! Your claim that the court is unmitigated is contradicted by your own words when you concede that "the court is public...." It is also contradicted because with our own eyes and ears, we can see the OTP being held to account by the judges whenever they step out of line. Akina Uhuruto are throwing fits because they aren't used to answering to anyone and spoilt brats that they are, always get their way. No? Unlike you mank, I shall not pretend that I haven't an opinion on the accused persons innocence or lack thereof. I believe that they did what they are accused of. What I pray for is that this time, they will not get away with murder. One can be guilty and found innocent, you could tell us about Travon Martin. This time they have to stand before the world, and defend the indefensible in a court that they can not intimidate nor buy. On another note, I wonder if they've sent people to Gambia to see if at all possible they can buy out Fatou, or are they just relying on bashing her using people like Matasanga? See how they got the former ICC guy to join them. dirty, dirty, dirty. And anyways, let me also remind you that this conversation starts with me encouraging team "we hate the ICC" to slow down and let things run their cause. No need to keep yelling everywhere about how they are winning on the 1st and 2nd freaking day of the case. Just like how they like to dish out advice to ODM about how not to screw themselves over, is the same way I want to help your team mank ps what is clishes?
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Post by mank on Sept 13, 2013 0:51:07 GMT 3
I long for justice. That is follow the legal process and let's see where it takes us. What I'm trying to highlight (as have many others), is the fact that rich and powerful people in Kenya do not get held accountable by anyone let alone the courts. Remember that is how this case ends up @ the ICC. Which brings me to the fact that Ruto for one wanted just what he's gotten. Be careful what you wish for! Your claim that the court is unmitigated is contradicted by your own words when you concede that "the court is public...." It is also contradicted because with our own eyes and ears, we can see the OTP being held to account by the judges whenever they step out of line. Akina Uhuruto are throwing fits because they aren't used to answering to anyone and spoilt brats that they are, always get their way. No? Fair enough. I was referring to the the power of the prosecutor in bringing matters to the court without challenging the accused to provide their version of events. Unlike you mank, I shall not pretend that I haven't an opinion on the accused persons innocence or lack thereof. I believe that they did what they are accused of. What I pray for is that this time, they will not get away with murder. One can be guilty and found innocent, you could tell us about Travon Martin. This time they have to stand before the world, and defend the indefensible in a court that they can not intimidate nor buy. On another note, I wonder if they've sent people to Gambia to see if at all possible they can buy out Fatou, or are they just relying on bashing her using people like Matasanga? See how they got the former ICC guy to join them. dirty, dirty, dirty. I shared your opinion till the point when it became clear that much of what was alleged "evidence" was the common talk that we get on Kenya's streets. My confidence of malpractice was with regard to Muthaura's case initially, but with time it started to appear that much of the approach that gave OTP such an unfounded case for Muthaura was shared with Ruto/Sang case. However I still do consider a possibility that Ruto did some of what he's accused for, but that cannot be just him and Sang (Sang seems set to go home anytime, in my view). What I question is whether the OTP will show it. There is a clip that Khan plays, where Ruto whispers "peaceful", that I think was placed there not so much for the whisper but to tell OTP ... I suspect we'll be seeing that clip again (in Uhuru's case, for sure). The import of it in Ruto's case is to say "OTP, you would have built a much better case if you did not rely on evidence from political opponents Quite different message ...... clishes ... Cliches. I corrected the spelling already.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 13, 2013 0:54:15 GMT 3
mank alisema "Bwaaaha aha ha haa ... that choked me a little. Could you set me up like that again tomorrow, as a weekend treat?" Glad I entertained you so. We could all use a good belly laugh, it's therapeutic you know. I promise that tomorrow being as it's friday, I shall be here to entertain you some more. You know us merus are super nice people until we're provoked... i'll let you finish that my meru brethren. Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8680/njakips-trial-beigins-hague?page=2#ixzz2eiWx1cin
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Post by mank on Sept 13, 2013 5:37:55 GMT 3
mank alisema "Bwaaaha aha ha haa ... that choked me a little. Could you set me up like that again tomorrow, as a weekend treat?" Glad I entertained you so. We could all use a good belly laugh, it's therapeutic you know. I promise that tomorrow being as it's friday, I shall be here to entertain you some more. You know us merus are super nice people until we're provoked... i'll let you finish that my meru brethren. Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8680/njakips-trial-beigins-hague?page=2#ixzz2eiWx1cinOh my! This is a great week I would go to the Reggae concert too, if I was in that crowd. Why waste an evening when a great event is going on just half an hour away? Poor Ruto, I am sure he would wanted to go too, but it would be a bad choice in the circumstances. Perhaps better to wonder why is he in the congregation in the first place, all the while noting that he might be financing his tour. ... those guys can afford to take a tour to Europe once in a while just for a concert. It sounds like Kenya is making a mark in that court ... travel all the way from Kenya to doze when the process one travelled for is under way ... or make noise in the court. Something makes me think they are treating that court as a Kangaroo court. In Kenya people get fined even for breaking the wind ... so most people would make sure not to doze, just to be on top of things. But this is the Hague.
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 7:35:27 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu, when you drive at night in an area that has wild game, if you come across an antelope or a dik dik in the middle of the road it will freeze and just look towards your headlights, oblivious to the danger it's exposing itself to vis a vis your vehicle moving towards it. The "deer in the headlights" syndrome is what you are seeing from the civil society types & Njakip Moonki Otishotish. Tick tock, tick tock has become tock tick, tock tick as we wait for their witnesses to appear. The dik diks are silent 'coz they still don't know what the heck has hit them now that Ruto is back home,still, a free man. Their "slam dunk" case(s) will come back to haunt them. Moral of the story: don't take petty KE politics to the global arena...
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 8:02:34 GMT 3
Mank, I watched the first day's proceedings almost in full but for Sang (Katwa Kigen's) opening statement I only managed to catch the last hour or so over the radio (Chamgei FM) to be specific. It's a lot better catching it on tv or live-stream on a PC/laptop as you get to see the various players expressions, but alas the work schedule does not allow. I didn't post what I did above because it was news as such but as a public service for those Jukwaaists who may have access only via a hand-held device (especially during working hours) & may not have WiFi or sufficient data bundles to watch a 30 minute interview on their cell phones. Capturing a highlight as above can at least keep them informed until they catch the 7 o'clock or 9 o'clock news bulletins. Like you I doubt the OTP will really require the 7 months she requested to go through her evidence in the Ruto case, if it as weak as what her opening statements outlined. Hell, it may just take 7 months for her witnesses to start arriving at the rate they are going! I've always thought it would be just a matter of time until the cases (especially Uhuru's which I watched more of during the Pre-Trial Chamber stage) get dropped. I must admit I didn't imagine the OTP's house of cards of a case would come crashing down from day one!!!! .... If what these witnesses who have since dropped off the case are saying is true, then Bensouda is just going to take a right royal beating from the "pit bull" that Karim Kahn is in a court of law:.... B6K, I get you now, about that Matsanga news. I agree, it is newsworthy in the current context. My first take was a surprise because in some way it seemed as if it was only now that you were paying attention to the allegations ... we still have to treat them as allegations. I also listened to the Chamgei FM (if we are talking about the same thing, that's where Sang did his own talking). I think the strategy to have Sang speak at this stage of the case is risky. He comes across very persuasive, but at the same time many of his strongest points may not be as apparent to the players in that court as to you and I who, with the cultural background, don't need a lot of words to get the import of any of his statements. For example, when Sang wonders "I was in Nairobi, and .... I was coordinating ethnic attacks in Eldoret? ... My wife was in Eldoret, my 3 (yr or month) old was in Eldoret ... living in a Kikuyu house." ... that argument really needs to be broken down and delivered systematically, knowing that many people in that court do not have the benefit of realities in Kenya to see the arguments hidden there. I doubt the court can grasp the powerful arguments well enough when stated in such a passing manner. By breaking down I mean giving the court a visual image of how far Eldoret was from Nairobi (to assume that they know this from maps is to ignore the fact that driving an emotion home is as important, if not more important, than expressing facts when you are on the dock), explain the housing arrangement of the wife in El D (not just mention "living in a Kikuyu hse"), and perhaps go to some extent into his own and family turmoil coming through the chaos given the situation they were in. A man with knowledge of what was going to happen in Eldoret would certainly have made sure his wife and child were out of there before things started to happen .. . and if you are the one providing directives over the air, you have the schedule of the mess right before you before it happens. The bigger risk is that later in the case he might find himself contradicted .. . for example, it could well be that after the clashes broke he did travel to EL D to secure his family, or that he got them to travel out by themselves, somehow. .. I just can't help but wonder whether he did nothing about it. If my family was in Eldoret I would have found a way of getting them out of there, and I anticipate he did. If details come out that he did, then they will be coming out in the prosecutor's version, as contradiction of what he presented (even though they need not be). I am totally entertained by Khan! Mank, that's absolutely right & it's what I have been trying to tell Otishotish in his numerous threads praising the ICC & the locking up of "criminals & murderers". Both sides are still just making allegations until the judges rule upon them. To celebrate the fact that you have a particular individual in court before you have secured a conviction is sheer folly. Only time will tell... I agree with you that having Sang make a statement now may have been premature. As I caught the proceedings on radio while he was speaking I initially assumed they were playing a video of him speaking somewhere. Maybe Katwa Kigen is borrowing a leaf from UK's defence team strategy in the Pre-Trial Chamber stage. It worked well for Uhuru, until Nguyayi undid his good work, but may come back to haunt Sang. Already the prosecution made some noise about his statement not being a "sworn" statement (oaths are taken seriously even outside of KE). Can he repeat the same performance with the same passion & conviction when he's actually sitting in the dock staring straight into the judges' eyes? (Incidentally Karim Kahn has already played so much video footage of WSR that he may not need to call him to the stand. The guy is a legal genius!) Before 9-11 certain people in the loop were alleged to have locked in the value of their shares in American Airlines (whose aircraft featured prominently in the various hijackings)by utilizing "put options" in a frenzied way on the eve of the "unforeseen" attacks. Just as people value their money, the assumption is they value their families as well & will keep them safe if they have foreknowledge of impending doom. A lot of KE nuance will lost to the oderos at the ICC. As we have already seen from the opening statements the OTP just doesn't seem to understand KE...
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 8:17:26 GMT 3
Ain't nothing funny about these cases, but we can afford a laugh or two when reading such: Also, contrary to what Uhuruto proponents say, there wasn't anything that came out of the Ruto/Sang trial to allow anyone of them to gloat gloat gloat about how they are winning. I couldn't tell how the case will unfold given the two days of hearings. Rather than wait, they want to make out as though Ruto (they don't care about Sang) is already winning the case. Not so. I suggest that you hold your horses, don't show off too much and don't think that just because you say something enough times, it becomes the truth. Kathure, no one has said "we" are winning. All we have said is you appear to be losing . It's early days yet but the defense did sure put its best foot forward whilst the OTP just put its foot in it! Besides, if it ain't so, where has Othishothat disappeared to?
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 8:33:26 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu, having watched the first day's proceedings (aka opening statements) I must admit I am considering drafting a lengthy apology letter to you & WSR. Somewhere in the archives of Jukwaa I intimated that UK should take on the services of one Karim Kahn as his counsel if he wants to beat this rap. His current mzee QC, although very sound in matters of law isn't digital enough, or aggressive enough to handle his case. His assistant, the young blonde one (who is not a QC if I recall Sadik's input back in the day), is much better at putting points across than her senior. Now that WSR hired Karim Kahn (KK ), he is already appearing to be innocent of all charges against him. Bensouda was left to initially rolling her eyes in consternation against attacks of her office (with special mention to her predecessor, one Louis Moreno Ocampo) not investigating the KE situation independently as any decent OTP should do & then eventually wondering what freight train just hit her! That said, it was a brilliant day for the WSR defense I always assumed would be doomed. Kahn's use of the OTP's own video evidence (which they used without sound) that he later presented with sound against the OTP proving that WSR was pro-cosmopolitanism in the Rift Valley & not a warmongering Kalenjin warrior was a clincher! He also clearly has a better grasp of KE politico-socio-dynamics when he expanded the cause of the conflict beyond a two dimensional Kalenjin vs Kikuyu thing to a general hodge-podge, multi-ethnic competition for limited resources that covers even Kisiis, Luhya's & other communities on both sides of the divide KE. What people like Njakip need to realize is as a defense lawyer all he need do is sow the seeds of doubt (aka show reasonable doubt). I don't think that Bensouda has the evidence to prove beyond reasonable doubt (& this is purely on opening statements & preliminary evidence) when you compare the two. Karim Kahn's only moment of weakness was when he aired a video clip (& he relied too much on Jeff Koinange "On The Bench" clips) of Ruto talking about owning only the 100 acres he acquired illegally from IDP Mr Muteshi that he recently gave back after paying a fine. All in all, it seems the KE dynamic duo have done their homework & attempted to fill in the gaps (such as correcting the 100 acre land acquisition in our revamped KE judiciary recently) before going into the ICC trials. As I have said before, Kenyans are running rings around this predominantly western run/owned court... Moonki, over to you.... b6k, Let us keep things in perspective here before this thread degenerates into a gang-bash on the head of Njakip! You people are going on as if his wish is to see Uhuruto nailed by Bensouda! I always understood him to mean he wanted them to appear before a competent and independent court, and if they make their case well, then acquittal be it! But the tenure of your post, or jibe, seems to be, Moonki, or is it Njakip, wants these people roasted. NB: Sang: as somebody who believes in freedom of expression, and is ready to appreciate the excesses real or imaginary as a necessary evil, I believe Sang should not even have appeared in the envelop of 20. It is a travesty! it is pure persecution! Jakaswanga, from one honorary gang-banger to another, the gist of the thread IS a gang-bang of Njakip! Just read the subject heading, mate. Count the numerous threads he has started RE ICC, the number of times he has denigrated indictees as if they were already convicted criminals, his "burning"of his KE passport & ID after the general elections to placate his mzungu wife, his freezing of his personal "aid" projects in KE because we are led by thugs (as if the US & the UK are not!) his snide tick tock of 90 years whizzing past in hyper-speed & then tell me why he doesn't deserve a bit of a can of whoop a$$ on his behind. Ok Kathure, I suppose I am gloating. Take me to The Hague!
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 8:43:57 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, if you are going to do anything well then you must practice. Having seen land clashes in RVP every 5 years coinciding with the election cycle since 1992, wouldn't you say some sort of organized mass action could be efficient by 2007? Just musing.... This is an intriguing hypothesis, b6k, the earlier clashes as dry-runs, imbuing collective wisdom which then is banked, waiting for large-scale occasion materialise into perfection! A mass instinctively recognising what to do!? Would the court buy it? and what do we do with all these names of ex-Moi servicemen attending war-council-like meetings? fiction? Jakaswanga, trust me even back in '92 the clashes were not dry runs. People died. It's just that casualty figures were not tallied given we had a real African Big Man in power ruling with an iron fist. Some of us spent sleepless nights as attacks were directed at our homes on a daily basis usually at night. The Nderu Nduru was a daily occurrence. ODM just tapped into a can of worms that only remained unopened in the heady elections of 2002 when EVERY Kenyan felt satisfied with the outcome. I have been trying to find that "Power Point presentation" (as Karim Kahn put it) of the "Kalenjin network" to analyze it more but no one seems to have uploaded it as of now...
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Post by b6k on Sept 13, 2013 9:00:42 GMT 3
I long for justice. That is follow the legal process and let's see where it takes us. What I'm trying to highlight (as have many others), is the fact that rich and powerful people in Kenya do not get held accountable by anyone let alone the courts. Remember that is how this case ends up @ the ICC. Which brings me to the fact that Ruto for one wanted just what he's gotten. Be careful what you wish for! Your claim that the court is unmitigated is contradicted by your own words when you concede that "the court is public...." It is also contradicted because with our own eyes and ears, we can see the OTP being held to account by the judges whenever they step out of line. Akina Uhuruto are throwing fits because they aren't used to answering to anyone and spoilt brats that they are, always get their way. No? Unlike you mank, I shall not pretend that I haven't an opinion on the accused persons innocence or lack thereof. I believe that they did what they are accused of. What I pray for is that this time, they will not get away with murder. One can be guilty and found innocent, you could tell us about Travon Martin. This time they have to stand before the world, and defend the indefensible in a court that they can not intimidate nor buy. On another note, I wonder if they've sent people to Gambia to see if at all possible they can buy out Fatou, or are they just relying on bashing her using people like Matasanga? See how they got the former ICC guy to join them. dirty, dirty, dirty. And anyways, let me also remind you that this conversation starts with me encouraging team "we hate the ICC" to slow down and let things run their cause. No need to keep yelling everywhere about how they are winning on the 1st and 2nd freaking day of the case. Just like how they like to dish out advice to ODM about how not to screw themselves over, is the same way I want to help your team mank ps what is clishes?Kathure, as the court cases run their course to their logical conclusion(s), ponder what will happen in KE when the Dynamic Duo return as free & vindicated men when the OTP's cases collapse. They would have done their duty to the international community by answering questions they normally do not answer to in KE & gotten away with it, not because they are not guilty but because your civil society pals provided lousy evidence to the OTP which in turn is presenting a lousy case. If the case is flawed, would it be just to convict a man because it is the right thing to do? Isn't that contrary to the rule of law where everyone (Dynamic Duo included) is presumed innocent until proven guilty? What I have been telling Otishotish all along is not to expect "justice" (& for him that means a conviction) from this court because it's cases are not sound. There is another duo of geriatric politicians who rightfully belong in that dock, before you come down to their spanner boys...
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Post by mank on Sept 13, 2013 16:06:34 GMT 3
b6k, Let us keep things in perspective here before this thread degenerates into a gang-bash on the head of Njakip! You people are going on as if his wish is to see Uhuruto nailed by Bensouda! I always understood him to mean he wanted them to appear before a competent and independent court, and if they make their case well, then acquittal be it! But the tenure of your post, or jibe, seems to be, Moonki, or is it Njakip, wants these people roasted. NB: Sang: as somebody who believes in freedom of expression, and is ready to appreciate the excesses real or imaginary as a necessary evil, I believe Sang should not even have appeared in the envelop of 20. It is a travesty! it is pure persecution! Jakaswanga, from one honorary gang-banger to another, the gist of the thread IS a gang-bang of Njakip! Just read the subject heading, mate. Count the numerous threads he has started RE ICC, the number of times he has denigrated indictees as if they were already convicted criminals, his "burning"of his KE passport & ID after the general elections to placate his mzungu wife, his freezing of his personal "aid" projects in KE because we are led by thugs (as if the US & the UK are not!) his snide tick tock of 90 years whizzing past in hyper-speed & then tell me why he doesn't deserve a bit of a can of whoop a$$ on his behind. Ok Kathure, I suppose I am gloating. Take me to The Hague! B6K, You have put across several valuable arguments that were either seconding mine, or which I would second. What you say about Sang is particularly interesting. Katwa Kigen put to the OTP a vivid challenge to justify having Sang in that court. If the OTP has come back with an explanation, I have not heard it. The unfolding raise a lot of questions about the Waki job that we all thought was golden. We don't see OTP presenting any info of the kind we expected to be what excited Waki so much. On the gestures you extend to KK and O, oh buoy, I will just prepare the challase later and follow. You asked what will happen in Kenya if the cases collapse. My hope is that Ruto will feel more challenged to become the person he presents himself in the court to be - working for Kenya's people, seeking to solve Kenya's problems. I read somewhere that Raila will be in the race for the top office in 2017. That, in my view, is one project that should be put off if these cases collapse. Other projects will have benefitted tremendously from this publicity ... if Sang has political aspirations, then that would be the time. There are infinite imaginations ... I will leave it there. Kathure, as the court cases run their course to their logical conclusion(s), ponder what will happen in KE when the Dynamic Duo return as free & vindicated men when the OTP's cases collapse. They would have done their duty to the international community by answering questions they normally do not answer to in KE & gotten away with it, not because they are not guilty but because your civil society pals provided lousy evidence to the OTP which in turn is presenting a lousy case. If the case is flawed, would it be just to convict a man because it is the right thing to do? Isn't that contrary to the rule of law where everyone (Dynamic Duo included) is presumed innocent until proven guilty? What I have been telling Otishotish all along is not to expect "justice" (& for him that means a conviction) from this court because it's cases are not sound. There is another duo of geriatric politicians who rightfully belong in that dock, before you come down to their spanner boys... That's where the clip Karim Khan was showing about "a whisper" comes in. I keep thinking there are things Ruto would love to say, but he has to be very selective. ... Anyways, the good thing is, whether someone is locked up or not, the case has demonstrated that there can be a cost to pay for slanderous politicking. Which is why Kenyans should be up on their feet against Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statute. We need to stay there, and take credit for some reforms in the ICC process. I can't imagine that OTP will fail to take notes of its failings in the Kenya case.
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Post by b6k on Sept 14, 2013 8:25:13 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, from one honorary gang-banger to another, the gist of the thread IS a gang-bang of Njakip! Just read the subject heading, mate. Count the numerous threads he has started RE ICC, the number of times he has denigrated indictees as if they were already convicted criminals, his "burning"of his KE passport & ID after the general elections to placate his mzungu wife, his freezing of his personal "aid" projects in KE because we are led by thugs (as if the US & the UK are not!) his snide tick tock of 90 years whizzing past in hyper-speed & then tell me why he doesn't deserve a bit of a can of whoop a$$ on his behind. Ok Kathure, I suppose I am gloating. Take me to The Hague! B6K, You have put across several valuable arguments that were either seconding mine, or which I would second. What you say about Sang is particularly interesting. Katwa Kigen put to the OTP a vivid challenge to justify having Sang in that court. If the OTP has come back with an explanation, I have not heard it. The unfolding raise a lot of questions about the Waki job that we all thought was golden. We don't see OTP presenting any info of the kind we expected to be what excited Waki so much. On the gestures you extend to KK and O, oh buoy, I will just prepare the challase later and follow. You asked what will happen in Kenya if the cases collapse. My hope is that Ruto will feel more challenged to become the person he presents himself in the court to be - working for Kenya's people, seeking to solve Kenya's problems. I read somewhere that Raila will be in the race for the top office in 2017. That, in my view, is one project that should be put off if these cases collapse. Other projects will have benefitted tremendously from this publicity ... if Sang has political aspirations, then that would be the time. There are infinite imaginations ... I will leave it there. That's where the clip Karim Khan was showing about "a whisper" comes in. I keep thinking there are things Ruto would love to say, but he has to be very selective. ... Anyways, the good thing is, whether someone is locked up or not, the case has demonstrated that there can be a cost to pay for slanderous politicking. Which is why Kenyans should be up on their feet against Kenya's withdrawal from the Rome Statute. We need to stay there, and take credit for some reforms in the ICC process. I can't imagine that OTP will fail to take notes of its failings in the Kenya case. Mank, you have made a two part response to two of my posts. As far as the first one goes, keep in mind Tuesday & Wednesday's preceedings were just opening statements allowing all parties to give a synopsis of the case they want to present. There was no right of reply expected or even granted except to the OTP because a defense team "mis-represented" the number of witnesses they intend to call forward. When Bensouda's side-kick tried to expand the right of reply to matters covered by Karim Khan, he was quickly corralled into discussing only matters around the number of victims by Justice Osuji. The back & forths will come later...once the OTP presents their witnesses in the actual court session... That whisper ("PEACEFULL"! <mass action>) by WSR is a shot across Rayila's bows. If I were Rayila I would be a very worried man. WSR it seems is more than prepared to cast his former boss in a bad light at the ICC. In the Uhuru case, on the other hand, the worst he may say is "I was not running for the presidency in 2007") which is a veiled hint that Kibs is their man. But UK will not directly cast aspersion on his former boss & godfather (in both the Catholic sense & the mafiosi one). The community which is infamous for oathing cannot gvie away one of its own due to strict omerta modus operandi. Having broken away from ODM & being from different communities now on opposite sides of the political divide, WSR isn't bound by any such omerta. Ruto will sell out Rayila in a heartbeat! Expect Ruto's defense to pull out a lot of evidence that will incriminate Rayila while at the same time diminish Ruto's responsibility in all matters PEV. Rayila may find his name & person tarnished to the point he may even want to voluntarily present himself to the ICC to clear it lest he find his reputation is so tattered that 2017 will be nothing more than a pipe dream....
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 14, 2013 9:42:19 GMT 3
Otishotish,
There is a point Matsanga stretches which needs some adressing: the recruitment of NGOS to fish for evidence, and that became a procurement racket --'eating' kenyan style as you usually put it. matsanga says he was interviewed by the ICC, and he proved the 'procurement' and all Khan and the rest have to do is subpoena the files --which they wont do now, because they would be removing bread from their mouths!
have you ever heard of the contents of this OTP-Matsanga deal? that in court, if revealed, would unravel the cases?
2. How important do you think it is, that Ocampo has no POST-MOTERM files of the victims? showing causes of death? I mean that fire in a Kiambaa church in Eldoret, how about if a lawyer proved it had been a gas-explosion accident as the family had a picknich in church? nothing to do with marauding Kalenjin warriors?
I am wondering whether in genocide too, bodies have to be 'harbeas corpused' in some way!
But if you remember the Bosnia Hercegovina case, forensic scientists waded through mass graveyards looking for pieces the broken skulls or retrieving bullets and catridges to beef up the case. A very gruesome business. Why did not ocampo do that in Kenya?
Is our case different, I mean the Kenyan cases?
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 14, 2013 9:47:37 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, from one honorary gang-banger to another, the gist of the thread IS a gang-bang of Njakip! Just read the subject heading, mate. Count the numerous threads he has started RE ICC, the number of times he has denigrated indictees as if they were already convicted criminals, his "burning"of his KE passport & ID after the general elections to placate his mzungu wife, his freezing of his personal "aid" projects in KE because we are led by thugs (as if the US & the UK are not!) his snide tick tock of 90 years whizzing past in hyper-speed & then tell me why he doesn't deserve a bit of a can of whoop a$$ on his behind. Ok Kathure, I suppose I am gloating. Take me to The Hague! Indeed, it would appear bashing is exactly what our sadistic headteacher had in mind when he opened this pandora's box of a thread! But Njakip is a mean puncher, prepare to wear glasses after your encounters. The return jabs will be wicked. yes, otishotish, for selling the Kenyan passport to a Somali al-something, that one I owe you a rib-cracking punch! Umefanya fujo, lazima utaona! NB: I fault Ruto for completely abandoning Sang at the Hague!
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Post by mank on Sept 14, 2013 18:31:23 GMT 3
Mank, you have made a two part response to two of my posts. As far as the first one goes, keep in mind Tuesday & Wednesday's preceedings were just opening statements allowing all parties to give a synopsis of the case they want to present. There was no right of reply expected or even granted except to the OTP because a defense team "mis-represented" the number of witnesses they intend to call forward. When Bensouda's side-kick tried to expand the right of reply to matters covered by Karim Khan, he was quickly corralled into discussing only matters around the number of victims by Justice Osuji. The back & forths will come later...once the OTP presents their witnesses in the actual court session... Good point! I have to confess that I listen to OTP with lots of impatience ... its impatience developed since the debate about OTP4 and the subsequent coming to the open that Muthaura was being framed (and in my view OTP was willing to go any route to keep him there, even knowing that he was being framed). Since then I have continued to wonder whether OTP turned any alleged "evidence" down as "clear garbage," or if anyone who volunteered a story against the accused got on the Hague ticket! My impatience hit new heights when I heard Bens' side-kick say "... this will show the attacks were not random events, rather, that they were organized events ..." That line was valuable at the pre-trial sessions, but by now I would expect it to be replaced everywhere by " it will show that the accused organized these events." I worry that OTP is hoodwinking Kenya that it has a case, and is just going to be making these teasy statements till the judge calls cases to a halt. This is not the movie I have been waiting for. ... That whisper ("PEACEFULL"! <mass action>) by WSR is a shot across Rayila's bows. If I were Rayila I would be a very worried man. WSR it seems is more than prepared to cast his former boss in a bad light at the ICC. I had chosen to stay on that one, but now that we are in it ... that's my read too. Further, I sense that Ruto wishes he was free to say some things about the chaotic times, but he's forced to stay zip rather than destroy himself in the process of destroying someone else. ... should it reach a point where Ruto starts to look guilty, hey, my bet is we start seeing new characters in the script, and just like that, we got some movie here! If you are familiar with computer programing languages you will therefore understand that I see Ruto as a macro character in the script ... at the right moment it will open up and write in new characters.... alas, you had already preempted me on that one, here: .... Ruto will sell out Rayila in a heartbeat! Expect Ruto's defense to pull out a lot of evidence that will incriminate Rayila while at the same time diminish Ruto's responsibility in all matters PEV. Rayila may find his name & person tarnished to the point he may even want to voluntarily present himself to the ICC to clear it lest he find his reputation is so tattered that 2017 will be nothing more than a pipe dream.... In the Uhuru case, on the other hand, the worst he may say is "I was not running for the presidency in 2007") which is a veiled hint that Kibs is their man. But UK will not directly cast aspersion on his former boss & godfather (in both the Catholic sense & the mafiosi one). The community which is infamous for oathing cannot gvie away one of its own due to strict omerta modus operandi. Having broken away from ODM & being from different communities now on opposite sides of the political divide, WSR isn't bound by any such omerta. For the Uhuru scene of this movie, I have set aside enough pop corn to take me through the Nguyai-driven part, however long it takes. Talk about Rayila having a reason to be afraid ... I hope His Excellency is relaxed and in good health ... there are sweating days ahead, if you recall the suspense left by Nguyai.
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