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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 18, 2014 13:22:08 GMT 3
Why you ask are they not simply overhauling the existing rail? You sort of answered yourself somewhere above when you spoke of the specter of competition from our neighbors to the south breathing down our necks. TZ will soon have 4 ports, we have one but hope to have 2 if Lamu goes online. They have already got some of their tracks laid out in new SGR format, thanks to help from "Kung-fu" (TZ actually has much closer historical ties with China than anything KE will ever dream of). Only sort of. The more I educate myself on the matter, the more I find it to be odd. EAC's own consultants say that 60 kph on existing lines should be more than enough. So why the standard gauge? My economics are largely limited to small-scale stuff, i.e. household matters. For those, I don't spend on the basis of " how can that be bad?". Instead I look into affordability and benefits. There are many things that " can't be bad", but we do not do them on that basis. Well, if it's just imagination, why not? Still, my own preference when it comes to large expenditure is to see numbers crunched; imagination is sometimes not a good guide. Not me; I am simply curious. In fact, I my curiosity about the project was aroused only when I started to enjoy the comedy of the eating arrangements, e.g. with the two CRBCs. Even the cost does not concern me, as it is Kenyans who will have to pay for it. On comedy ... the Vision 2030 SGR link you provided is great. Just three powerpoint slides? And one labelled "benefits" is completely blank? The other two "slides" seem to have taken all of 10 seconds. Surely, some "hardworking" civil servant could have been found to spend 5 seconds on some "benefits" ... www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197Oh, the two-line "objectives" one is pretty good ... I wonder how long that one took. The in-house magazine too isn't bad. It states that " As part of the Corporation’s commitments to transform the railway transport sector, it has signed an agreement with China Road and Bridge Corporation for the construction of first section of the Standard Gauge Railway line from Mombasa to Nairobi. The rail is expected to reach Nairobi in 2014."
(Said document was produced in late 2012 before any work had started). www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197Far from it; all I am doing is wondering why you don't stick with the existing one.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 18, 2014 13:42:18 GMT 3
Otishotish is really misleading us. in most if not the whole of Europe and Asia plus USA what is in use if of low quality is the SGR or if for speed trains the broad gauge rail line. Broad-gauge railways use a track gauge (distance between the rails) greater than the standard gauge of 1,435 mm or 1.5 m (almost). No, no, no; that won't do. You need to say how I am misleading anyone. In particular, note that I have not commented on what is all over the whole of Europe or Asia. I have made specific comments on Japan, which is the home of high-speed rail---and I mean high speed. Let me repeat them so that you can point out what is misleading: * About 90% of Japan's rail network consists of narrow gauge rail, some of it quite old. * Almost all of the standard gauge rail is taken up by the "bullet trains", for which it was specifically built. [Freight and local trains run on the narrow gauge.] * The speeds currently being quoted for Kenya's SGR (80kph/120 kph) are already being met or exceeded on quite a few of Japan's narrow gauge network. For the other stuff, on EAC's networks, I provided the link to my source. In particular, I note that you have picked out a couple of lines from what I wrote. One of then is this: I was careful to indicate that the sentence was lifted from the slides of the Japanese guy who gave a presentation to the EAC. (I provided the link, and I did not even give my opinion on the statement.) To the extent that you consider it misleading, it is not OtishOtish who is doing the misleading. The other one is this: How that would be misleading is unclear. Alright. Now please explain exactly what is misleading in what I wrote. So you say (although nowhere did I comment on LAPPSET). What you need to do next is argue your case.Going back to this: I understand your statement to mean that in those parts of the world broad gauge is used for speed and standard gauge is used for other stuff. That would be very interesting. Assuming that by "high speed" you really mean high speed, here's a somewhat reasonable summary of what's around: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_by_countryCount the number that are in standard gauge (1435 mm). But if by "high speed" you mean something else, then (a) give your figure (in kph) for what you mean by "high speed", along with an explanation of why you consider it high speed and (b) specify track lines and where in "Europe and Asia plus USA" it is all in broad gauge.
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 18, 2014 21:18:02 GMT 3
My humble take on the main problem we need to tackle as kenyans on this cross border transport. But first, a rejoinder to some of Kamale's points: Yes, the upgraded port may be able to handle 1.4 million by completion as you state but currently, rail transport accounts for a meagre five percent of goods transported from the port. The rest use the road network. The increase in mombasa port handling capacity does not automatically mean the numbers will use the rail network. The problem is not even the hours to transport cargo or people. RVR actually stated that goods from mombasa to nairobi take between six and eight hours (I think I read it on their website) thanks to their 'improved' efficiency. The main problem is us kenyans and our lack of foresight and proper management/maintenance systems. Just have a look at the thika highway if you doubt me. The main issue we need to tackle first is the delays and congestion at the port. That won't be curtailed just by throwing money at new facilities. The reason for the delays and congestion is corruption and further delays at informal stops and checkpoints. Very cumbersome clearance procedures helped in no small part by multi agency demands. There is no streamlined system and the agencies keep shifting blame amongst each other. Even with a new rail system, we are not guaranteed that the problems will go away nor the investment will pay for itself. That seems to be the gist of Ndii's argument and at least he has come up with something to explain himself. All we need is for the uhuruto crew to come up with a counter argument with numbers proving otherwise so we can poke holes in them the same way we are doing to Ndii's arguments. The onus is not on Ndii. It is on the Government to prove to us common folk. But we are met with the L "Mta do ? " Silence. Take RVR for example. It is a private entity that (irregardless of its many issues) was mandated to improve rail transport but our network is still carrying only at half yearly capacity. Infact, under them, cargo transport by rail went down from 15 to 3 percent. Doesn't that tell us that we need to look deeper than just splashing money into white elephants and bottomless pockets ? One of the reasons RVR gave for the below par performance was high tariffs by the Government leaving them with little money for infrastructure improvement. What I am trying to say is there are still a lot of un answered questions about this whole debacle. My father used to say that if you want to eat, don't eat like the hyena who munches on everything, including bones in one seating, leaving nothing for tomorrow. Eat like the leopard, it carries its food up the tree for safety and eats slowly, leaving some meat on the bones for the next day. You are never sure if the herds will be easy to get the next day. It is a nice saying: learning how to crawl before walking! That the narrow gauge railway ---the lunatic express of old, was allowed to totally disappear under the earth in the same periods as the Kenyan population more than quadrupled (thus at least equally raising the demand for railway services), tells the story of a land of inverse priorities, where maintainance is not a virtue. And Omundu’s observations about the RVR lackluster operations too, inspires not much confidence. But there is this model, shameful, but factual. Kenya Airways was all but collapsed, then the dutch KLM took it over, and reformed it into the current pride of Afrika. The Kenya Posts and Telecom was moribund and Kenya Posta Bank dead, then Vodafone entered the market, and these days we are exporting the Mpesa model. Suppose we gave full managerial monopoly to the Japanese Bullet trainers!? (Managerial colonialism?) I mean here is Omundu saying the Thika Highway is not maintained, so, it is true that b6k’s lack of consumer confidence, is far from being just alarmist, faced with a Kenyan train doing SGR at break-neck speeds! B6K: said Indeed we can not transfer our current road carnage to rail carnage. And we kind of can not fool each other on maintainance!
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 18, 2014 21:26:32 GMT 3
Are we criticizing the build simply because it's perceived to be Uhuru's baby or are there genuine concerns that it will be too costly for the nation. Without anything similar to compare to in terms of build costs, the jury's still out on this one... b6k, I do not think anybody in his right mind can criticize this thing merely because it is Uhuru's kid! Some form of Rail transport must come! Gosh, I for one want the Chinese to complete the transcontinentals! 1. Dare-Salaam to Loanda. 2. Maputo to Lagos! After all we talk of the African Union, and without easy transport infrastructure, even Kisii is a light-year from Kakamega! I think we are all agreed we searching for the best deal, the best rail deals. We do not want waste by graft, we do not want excessive debt by loans & interest payments. And we do not want a white elephant. it is a tough call yeah!
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 18, 2014 23:10:48 GMT 3
[Otishotish is really misleading us. in most if not the whole of Europe and Asia plus USA what is in use if of low quality is the SGR or if for speed trains the broad gauge rail line. Podp: Regardless of how you define "high speed" ... I believe that that as far as the USA does, your "broad gauge" claim is very easy to take care of. The "manual gauge-change" (11,500 miles of track) of which I gave a description and a drawing was in fact a change from broad gauge to standard gauge. There is now very, very little broad-gauge to be found in the USA, and, as far as I can tell, nearly all of it is in the very old local-transit systems of some cities. For those, the only broad gauge that appears to exist are legacy systems for streetcars in Pittsburgh, Phiadelphia, New Orleans. I have been able to identify only one modern system: the BART in San Francisco. And it was not build that way for speed; the idea was that broad gauge would provide better stability against crosswinds on a rail bridge that was to be built (but never was built) across the San Francisco bay. Today that is a much-lamented decision. Time-permitting, I will next give you "most if not the whole of Europe.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 18, 2014 23:32:16 GMT 3
Otishotish is really misleading us. in most if not the whole of Europe and Asia plus USA what is in use if of low quality is the SGR or if for speed trains the broad gauge rail line. Podp: Now, we do "most if not all of Europe". If we exclude Russsia, as being part in Europe and part in Asia, as well as the odd "satellite", the use of broad gauge is (except for what might be trivial legacy stuff) in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and Finland. In Britain, for example, the last proper broad-gauge lines were replaced by standard gauge in 1892. A nice map of the old (and fairly extensive) UK broad-gauge network will be found here: www.broadgauge.org.uk/history/bg_what_is.htmlFigure 1 at the link below gives a nice summary for Europe. www.jrtr.net/jrtr14/pdf/f18_ebe.pdfAs you can see most of the folks there have settled on what you call "low quality" SGR. Shall we save Asia for tomorrow?
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Post by podp on Feb 19, 2014 19:05:07 GMT 3
Otishotish is really misleading us. in most if not the whole of Europe and Asia plus USA what is in use if of low quality is the SGR or if for speed trains the broad gauge rail line. Podp: Now, we do "most if not all of Europe". If we exclude Russsia, as being part in Europe and part in Asia, as well as the odd "satellite", the use of broad gauge is (except for what might be trivial legacy stuff) in Spain, Portugal, Ireland, and Finland. In Britain, for example, the last proper broad-gauge lines were replaced by standard gauge in 1892. A nice map of the old (and fairly extensive) UK broad-gauge network will be found here: www.broadgauge.org.uk/history/bg_what_is.htmlFigure 1 at the link below gives a nice summary for Europe. www.jrtr.net/jrtr14/pdf/f18_ebe.pdfAs you can see most of the folks there have settled on what you call "low quality" SGR. Shall we save Asia for tomorrow? many appreciations for you enlightening me on the railway systems. I now appreciate the SGR is not a low quality version. on the question above...what I still think is that.... First, it is a cheaper and faster alternative to the proposed LAPSSET route, as there is already a line from Thika to Nanyuki that only needs rehabilitation. All it would require to make LAPSSET a reality is a container terminal in Nanyuki and a good road from Nanyuki to Juba, as the road to Ethiopia is already under construction. The economic rationale for replicating the Mombasa-Nairobi line when we are struggling to secure funding for the LAPSSET infrastructure has totally escaped me. Second, it would connect both the Northern Corridor and the proposed LAPSSET corridor to both Mombasa and the new Lamu port. Choice for the customer, and competition between the two ports, can only be a good thing. Third, it will stimulate development of the historically marginalised regions along its route. It will carry livestock and livestock products to the ports for export, coal and cement from Kitui, and food from the million acres of the lower Tana that we are about to irrigate. mobile.nation.co.ke/blogs/New-railway-is-not-value-for-money-/-/1949942/2207034/-/format/xhtml/-/qupvukz/-/index.html
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 19, 2014 22:16:28 GMT 3
Podp: You accused me of misleading people. Otishotish is really misleading us. To "support" that accusation, you took the rather odd step of concocting and dishing up some misleading stuff. This many appreciations for you enlightening me on the railway systems. doesn't read like an apology, but I'll take whatever I can get.
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Post by podp on Feb 20, 2014 8:41:55 GMT 3
Podp: You accused me of misleading people. Otishotish is really misleading us. To "support" that accusation, you took the rather odd step of concocting and dishing up some misleading stuff. This many appreciations for you enlightening me on the railway systems. doesn't read like an apology, but I'll take whatever I can get. have had the pleasure or/and pain of travelling on the Nairobi-Butere passenger train when it used to operate. it never went at speed above 50 km per hour have also experienced the high speed train, passing 240 km per hour, running on wider gauge and also standard gauge. high-speed trains normally operate on standard gauge tracks of continuously welded rail on grade separated right-of-way that incorporates a large turning radius in its design. just those two points do not allow us in Kenya to ever have a high speed train on our current track even if it is refurbished on the current line or the proposed single track SGR! that was where I was honestly coming from when I talked of you misleading us. we need double track and not less than SGR, hence my preference to wide gauge being permanently resident in Kenya and only occasionally experiencing what is out there it is natural to reach such a conclusion as the proposed single track SGR will never be a high speed train. however not wishing to have a to and fro exchanges on our persons it occurred to me better throw in the towel early and dwell on the subject matter i.e. Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya?
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 20, 2014 17:06:35 GMT 3
have had the pleasure or/and pain of travelling on the Nairobi-Butere passenger train when it used to operate. it never went at speed above 50 km per hour And nowhere did I claim that such a train ever did. Try to restrict your arguments to what is relevant.
You have not been paying attention, have you? Did anybody suggest running 240 kph trains on Kenya's current tracks?
At first, I thought you had your own idea of what a high speed train is, but it would appear that you do go along with the normal standard. That being the case, read carefully the following statement.
The speeds being proposed for Kenya's SGR are 80kph/120kph. Regardless of whether one considers those high speeds---and they are not what one would consider high-speed---they can be achieved on Kenya's narrow gauge if the lines are refurbished.
So that Kenya cannot "a high speed train on our current track even if it is refurbished on the current line or the proposed single track SGR!" is completely irrelevant.
And you can't seem to make up your mind. Earlier you wrote:
Now you write:
Moving along ... you write:
Please try to make more reasoned arguments, rather than just state preferences:
(1) One can have double-track in any gauge. (And I note that you have actually not attempted to make an argument for why double-track is needed.)
(2) You have not made an argument for standard gauge, given that the speeds and loads being quoted for Kenya's future system can be supported on the current system if refurbished.
(3) "double track and not less than SGR" can be achieved with SGR, by having double track in SGR. So how you then jump to wide gauge is far from clear.
Lastly, I would encourage you to do some homework before you made broad, bold statements, such as
And avoid accusations such as unless you can clearly point out where people are being misled.
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Post by podp on Feb 20, 2014 18:20:18 GMT 3
You have not been paying attention, have you? Did anybody suggest running 240 kph trains on Kenya's current tracks? [/p]
in the footsteps of mr kurtz the colonial lesson from King Leopold was 'Keep your head down, think small, look after yourself'. reading all the above "All I could think about was why the hell did I get involved?".
but the story of the Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya? is too important to make my contributions be subjected to a courtroom drama.
The transformative power of a railway line has already been demonstrated by the current line, its deficiencies notwithstanding. The transport arteries that serve the port of Mombasa’s hinterland; and which form the Northern Corridor; account for over 80 per cent of Kenya’s Gross Domestic Product
www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000103574&story_title=benefits-of-standard-gauge-railway-outweigh-its-cost
so we dwell on Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya? otherwise if you try to study any individual you may make loops around the individual that may or may not dwell on Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya?....and at the end?
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 20, 2014 21:36:19 GMT 3
Podp:
I would not rely on popular newspapers, especially of that quality, when it comes to such large-scale economic matters. I will not bother to point out the obvious flaws in even just the single statement that you have quoted. Instead I will ask this: what do Kenyans who are about to be put into long-term debt really know about the economics of what is involved, and what are their sources of information?
As far as I can tell here is in fact very little solid and detailed economic information that is available to the public. (The Mars Group has tried to help with some related information, but ... ) If you know of any, please let me know; in particular, I am keen to find information that counters the arguments made by the EAC's own consultants on the matter. I have done some extensive searching, especially of GoK websites, and found very little that was helpful. b6k provided a link to the Vision 2030 website. There, after having been described as a "flagship project", instead of details, all one finds are a few lazy sentences; and as b6k too noted, it appears to be too much for anyone to come up with even one lazy sentence for the "Benefits".
Look, it's Kenyans who will pay for it, and, as Uhuru has stated, in response to the objections to the built-in eating component, "bugger the noises; the thing will go ahead". Mine is largely a matter of curiosity that is part of a larger question I frequently ask myself: "given that Africa is supposedly trying to get ahead, why do governments there routinely make questionable decisions?".
I cannot claim to have a definite answer to that one, but here's one I am considering: A large chunk of the funding will come from a Chinese bank. The bank has taken steps to ensure that it will get back its money and then some. (Look at the issues surrounding the insurance of the loan and requests for guarantees of business on the lines.) Now, banks mostly exist to make money, and one way they do that is to lend money and charge interest. So, if a bank has guaranteed returns, should it work to lend as much as possible or should it work to lend as little as possible? And if the bank is working in a place of the world where eaters will happily put the populace into debt ... For eaters too, the bigger the pie, ...
As for loops around individuals, I am mostly concerned with just one---the one who accused me of "really misleading" people. That's you, buddy.
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Post by omundu on Feb 21, 2014 1:09:40 GMT 3
[/p]
in the footsteps of mr kurtz the colonial lesson from King Leopold was 'Keep your head down, think small, look after yourself'. reading all the above "All I could think about was why the hell did I get involved?".
but the story of the Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya? is too important to make my contributions be subjected to a courtroom drama.
The transformative power of a railway line has already been demonstrated by the current line, its deficiencies notwithstanding. The transport arteries that serve the port of Mombasa’s hinterland; and which form the Northern Corridor; account for over 80 per cent of Kenya’s Gross Domestic Product
www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000103574&story_title=benefits-of-standard-gauge-railway-outweigh-its-cost
so we dwell on Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya? otherwise if you try to study any individual you may make loops around the individual that may or may not dwell on Standard Gauge Railway-Which way Kenya?....and at the end?
[/quote] Podp Like otish says, what really are the benefits and are there clear, distinct empirical studies that informed the conclusion that it will be beneficial? We have many examples of reknown bodies who have produced empirical studies showing the folly that is this venture. You can read the links spread throughout this thread. We havnt seen any such study showing otherwise. To give an example of the oroginal lunatic express and its effect on our gdp is a bit unfair because circumstances are very different now than they were historically. One example, amongst others is for many decades, the railway was the only mode of 'modern' transport opening up the hinterland. Management was way better until muafrika entered the scene. I have also worked for companies where we did projections on projects where we sugar coated the impacts to the economy: thousands of jobs to be created during construction and others during the lifespan of the development etc. Many white elephants exist even in europe like the dome or some olympic villages, all because people glossed over flowered presentations like the article you posted and were lazy to delve further into details. There are other ways we can solve our transport issues and it doesn't have to be fixed on a new railway. Just check how much thika highway cost and calculate how far 300 billion will take us if invested in a proper highway from mombasa to malaba even. Killing several birds with one stone. Now, if you were a banker and you are presented with figures showing that over 80 percent of goods and human cargo from the port use the road network into the hinterland. Then you are told the loan will be used to expand and modify the highway all the way into Uganda with a toll gate here and there. Where would you put your money ? Imagine the impact of that on the economy with faster and safer transport with less money spent on repair of vehicles. It is just an example I am throwing out there.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 21, 2014 5:56:35 GMT 3
To give an example of the oroginal lunatic express and its effect on our gdp is a bit unfair because circumstances are very different now than they were historically. One example, amongst others is for many decades, the railway was the only mode of 'modern' transport opening up the hinterland. Management was way better until muafrika entered the scene. The proposed route for the new Mombasa-Nairobi-Malaba/Wherever line shows that it won't be opening up any new hinterlands. So we need not dwell on that one. Did the Lunatic Express have a transformative effect on Kenya's economy. Undoubtedly. What does that have to do with 80% today? I have no idea. I do, however, note that the writer of the article, while using it to argue for the SGR, neatly omits to tell readers what exactly the railway's contribution is. The reference is to a generic " transport arteries". If we try to answer the question, a starting point would be this: " what proportion of freight and passengers do the current railway lines account for?". For freight, the figure appears to be something like 6%-7%. For passengers, anyone who knows Kenya and its transportation system will not be surprised by the sad figures that RVR has been producing for some years. Is it possible that the railway lines are transporting material that have a huge "value-added" factor and passengers with a huge "value-adding" effect as far as the GDP goes? Some of analysis of the EAC networks actually look into what sort of freight is being moved and would be moved in the future. As for passengers ... People can look at the details and make up their own minds. The economic-benefits story? That's standard stuff all over the world. The city I live in regularly comes up with some pretty good stories, but always for government grants and never for bank loans. We learned a good lesson when in one case the government gave a very unhelpful response: " This is an excellent proposal, but we have limited funding. We'll give a grant for 35%, and with those kinds of benefits any bank will be happy to lend you the rest". We then decided that mistakes had been made in computing the economic benefits ...
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Post by podp on Feb 21, 2014 18:04:55 GMT 3
Podp: As far as I can tell here is in fact very little solid and detailed economic information that is available to the public. (The Mars Group has tried to help with some related information, but ... ) If you know of any, please let me know; in particular, I am keen to find information that counters the arguments made by the EAC's own consultants on the matter. I have done some extensive searching, especially of GoK websites, and found very little that was helpful. b6k provided a link to the Vision 2030 website. There, after having been described as a "flagship project", instead of details, all one finds are a few lazy sentences; and as b6k too noted, it appears to be too much for anyone to come up with even one lazy sentence for the "Benefits". Look, it's Kenyans who will pay for it, and, as Uhuru has stated, in response to the objections to the built-in eating component, "bugger the noises; the thing will go ahead". As for loops around individuals, I am mostly concerned with just one---the one who accused me of "really misleading" people. That's you, buddy. [/p][/quote] red high light the original railway line too was paid for by Kenyans. after the European wars of the 1930s and 1940s the soldiers who survived were brought to Kenya en-mass and settled in what is today Central and Rift Valley to farm and have the railway line pay for the cost it had incurred the British companies and government to construct. the manual laborers mainly Indians were offered 2nd class citizenship and the Kenya colony came into being. in Congo hostages were used as porters or sold as slaves to rival tribes in exchange for rybber or ivory, and thousands of orphaned children were marched off to Catholic missions to be trained as soldiers for the Force Publique...if Leopold's agents failed to meet the targets, the Force Publique would descend on a village, burn its huts, kill at random and take womenfolk, children and chiefs prisoners until the villagers came to heel. 'In 1899 the railway works reached a waterhole, one more of all those where Thomson had probably rested to refresh and water his beasts. It was a marshy pond in a place the Maasais knew as Nyrobi. Chief engineer George Whitehouse decided to establish there the main railway station to undertake the works at the Rift Valley. At the end of that same year, the place was already known as Nairobi, and the first adventurers and hunters began to settle there attracted by its good climate. At the same time, the colonial administration resolved to move from Machakos to the new city. The 20th of December 1901, chief engineer Ronald Preston's wife laid the last rail in Port Florence, today Kisumu, at the shores of Lake Victoria. The last stretch from Kisumu to Kampala would follow later on. Thus ended the construction of one of the great engineering works in history, which still today is an essential artery in East African communications. ..... The railroad works also spilt much native blood, of those that reacted to the invasion of their lands: Giriamas, Taitas, Kambas, Kikuyus, Kisiis, Nandis and Elgeyos, all were brutally repressed for their skirmishes against the dominant power. www.kenyalogy.com/eng/info/histo10.htmlhowever between the single track SGR for Mombasa to Uganda via Nairobi my take is the LAPPSET project would have been more interesting and less prone to improper motives as it would have opened up neglected parts of Kenya This will comprise of a new road network, a railway line, oil refinery at Lamu, oil pipeline, Isiolo and Lamu Airports and a free port at Lamu (Manda Bay) in addition to resort cities at the coast and in Isiolo. It will be the backbone for opening up Northern Kenya and integrating it into the national economy. www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/pillars/project/macro_enablers/181as you correctly notes when the dynamic duo aka ICC indictees became PORK and deputy PORK respectively not much has been heard of the LAPPSET and now we are being fed the SGR. last time anything newsworthy on LAPPSET did occur was 'The Standard has seen a copy of the gazette notice in which Shaukat was appointed by Kibaki and copy of Uhuru’s new appointment, which revokes Shaukat’s earlier posting. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000101311&story_title=sacked-lapsset-chairman-speaks-outas they say 'let the games begin' and the motto is the one that brings in most cash before 2017 wins. hence the SGR as it has better prospects of being a 'white elephant' Whereas there are arguments for the construction of the railway — Kenya’s biggest infrastructure project since Independence — some of the country’s finest economists have backed the view that it is not economically viable because the Government will have to subsidise it heavily using taxpayers’ funds. However, there is a growing perception that the Jubilee government is being held captive by a coterie of powerful business interests, and this has removed any objectivity in dealing with this and other matters of monumental national interest. This perception persists despite strong signals from the Executive that it will not tolerate corruption in any form. Generational burden Thursday’s clean-bill-of-health verdict of the rail project by the Kamanda committee failed to answer fundamental questions that have arisen, including the demands of very specific guarantees by the Chinese financier that it will get its money back regardless of whether or not the project proves commercially viable. Fears here in the case of a non-viable project — the onus is on government to prove otherwise — have revolved around the inevitable loading of the loan repayment burden on several generations of Kenyans, as happened with the Kenren fertiliser plant in the 70s. Our view is that whereas there is nothing per se wrong with the so-called government-to-government projects, they should not unduly burden taxpayers. Regardless, it is worrying that the National Assembly can no longer be relied upon to view such projects dispassionately and without the lenses of vested political interest. www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000105124&story_title=Parliament-fails-test-on-proposed-standard-gauge-railway-project
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Post by b6k on Feb 22, 2014 10:51:11 GMT 3
Are we criticizing the build simply because it's perceived to be Uhuru's baby or are there genuine concerns that it will be too costly for the nation. Without anything similar to compare to in terms of build costs, the jury's still out on this one... b6k, I do not think anybody in his right mind can criticize this thing merely because it is Uhuru's kid! Some form of Rail transport must come! Gosh, I for one want the Chinese to complete the transcontinentals! 1. Dare-Salaam to Loanda. 2. Maputo to Lagos! After all we talk of the African Union, and without easy transport infrastructure, even Kisii is a light-year from Kakamega! I think we are all agreed we searching for the best deal, the best rail deals. We do not want waste by graft, we do not want excessive debt by loans & interest payments. And we do not want a white elephant. it is a tough call yeah! Jakaswanga, I don't think you ask for too much. Prove the graft charges & I will join the picket line right by your side....
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Post by podp on Feb 23, 2014 9:09:37 GMT 3
b6k, I do not think anybody in his right mind can criticize this thing merely because it is Uhuru's kid! Some form of Rail transport must come! Gosh, I for one want the Chinese to complete the transcontinentals! 1. Dare-Salaam to Loanda. 2. Maputo to Lagos! After all we talk of the African Union, and without easy transport infrastructure, even Kisii is a light-year from Kakamega! I think we are all agreed we searching for the best deal, the best rail deals. We do not want waste by graft, we do not want excessive debt by loans & interest payments. And we do not want a white elephant. it is a tough call yeah! Jakaswanga, I don't think you ask for too much. Prove the graft charges & I will join the picket line right by your side.... Embedded corruption networks consist of four groups of players, beginning with the private sector (especially brokers whose currency is access to power), and key operatives in the banking and legal fraternities. Second, the networks always include politicians who ironically are the most dispensable of the four groups of players. Elections can be held, key political godfathers of particular deals replaced, but the deals don’t die, political careers, reputations and ambitions do instead. Third, the resilient core of any powerful corruption network is the bureaucracy. Here I speak not of the permanent secretary, but those lower down the ladder who shuffle contract documents from office to office. Finally, no embedded network succeeds without the protection of security sector – police and intelligence. In some countries, for example, a couple in West Africa, the drug trade is overseen by the military. www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-156331/propaganda-perception-and-fight-against-corruptionasking an individual (Jakaswanga) or if s/he is an institution, neither welding Executive, Legislative nor Judicial powers is a long long call. simple logic after reading various inputs here state clearly that the SGR is a 4th option after bypassing 3 other more open (transparency wise), more economical (money wise) and more futuristic (technology wise) one is left with the perception that corruption networks are in charge of what is unfolding before our very own eyes. from the above one can clearly see the weakest link is the political players and hence the weaker player (UhuRuto) were clearly front runners and not the much maligned RAO. UhuRuto are clearly easier to manipulate as they have more baggage (ICC, impatient constituents in form of GEMA and Kamatusa ethnic elites, ....)
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 23, 2014 19:51:57 GMT 3
Kenyans should find comfort that the president has again warned corruption cartels. In fact, one of his sternest warnings has been to those operating in his own Office of The President, which he says is a leader in the "business".
"Time is up!" "Heads will roll!"
Great presidential stuff. At this rate, he will easily reach 100 stern warnings by the end of the year, at which point Kenyans will join picket lines and the corrupt will have no choice but to listen.
In the meantime ... kazi iendelee.
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Post by podp on Feb 24, 2014 18:50:33 GMT 3
Great presidential stuff. At this rate, he will easily reach 100 stern warnings by the end of the year, at which point Kenyans will join picket lines and the corrupt will have no choice but to listen.
In the meantime ... kazi iendelee. As with Kanu, reports of Commissions of Inquiry that point to government complicity in rights abuses or corruption are shelved. Just as before, dereliction of duty, such as we witnessed during Westgate, is not punished. Corruption continues at a steady pace. Political debate, just as in the past, is shrill, sycophantic and often motivated by tribal considerations. Famine in Turkana continues as before. Attempts to restrict media and civil society are echoes of the past, and so on. There is a sense, therefore, based on the high standards set by the Constitution, that the country is standing still or at times moving backwards. As per this constitutional threshold, a slightly better performing cabinet is not enough. A slightly better governance style will be judged a failure. Marginally better roads will not do. A 5% or 7% percent growth rate will be inadequate. An edge over Kibaki ‘s performance will be poor work. The constitutional standard requires that Uhuru and Ruto lead a Singaporean revolution. www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-155866/uhuru-ruto-should-not-emulate-kanu
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Post by podp on Feb 24, 2014 18:53:05 GMT 3
Great presidential stuff. At this rate, he will easily reach 100 stern warnings by the end of the year, at which point Kenyans will join picket lines and the corrupt will have no choice but to listen.
In the meantime ... kazi iendelee. As with Kanu, reports of Commissions of Inquiry that point to government complicity in rights abuses or corruption are shelved. Just as before, dereliction of duty, such as we witnessed during Westgate, is not punished. Corruption continues at a steady pace. Political debate, just as in the past, is shrill, sycophantic and often motivated by tribal considerations. Famine in Turkana continues as before. Attempts to restrict media and civil society are echoes of the past, and so on. There is a sense, therefore, based on the high standards set by the Constitution, that the country is standing still or at times moving backwards. As per this constitutional threshold, a slightly better performing cabinet is not enough. A slightly better governance style will be judged a failure. Marginally better roads will not do. A 5% or 7% percent growth rate will be inadequate. An edge over Kibaki ‘s performance will be poor work. The constitutional standard requires that Uhuru and Ruto lead a Singaporean revolution. www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-155866/uhuru-ruto-should-not-emulate-kanu
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Post by b6k on Feb 24, 2014 20:19:06 GMT 3
from the above one can clearly see the weakest link is the political players and hence the weaker player (UhuRuto) were clearly front runners and not the much maligned RAO. UhuRuto are clearly easier to manipulate as they have more baggage (ICC, impatient constituents in form of GEMA and Kamatusa ethnic elites, ....) Podp, you raise some interesting points. However, so as not to derail ( ) the SGR thread let me address the much maligned RAO question in Jakaswanga's Raila succession thread...
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Post by b6k on Feb 24, 2014 20:23:22 GMT 3
Kenyans should find comfort that the president has again warned corruption cartels. In fact, one of his sternest warnings has been to those operating in his own Office of The President, which he says is a leader in the "business".
"Time is up!" "Heads will roll!"
Great presidential stuff. At this rate, he will easily reach 100 stern warnings by the end of the year, at which point Kenyans will join picket lines and the corrupt will have no choice but to listen.
In the meantime ... kazi iendelee. Otishotish, posting a video from early November 2013 as if it were yesterday's news and "yet another warning" does not become thee. But then again, what can be expected from a rabid anti Jubilee hack. Porojo ianze....
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 24, 2014 22:39:15 GMT 3
Otishotish, posting a video from early November 2013 as if it were yesterday's news and "yet another warning" does not become thee. But then again, what can be expected from a rabid anti Jubilee hack. Porojo ianze.... b6k:
Please don't shoot the messenger who is delivering a message that might help those who are awake and who care. True, it's not a happy message, but still!
Simply calling me a "rabid anti Jubilee hack" is not helpful. For starters, while I have written a fair bit about Uhuru, it's been mainly Uhuru The Criminal. When it comes to other Kenyan matters, other than those that have to do with human rights, I will write very little. In matters such as SGR, corruption, etc, I mainly post (a) for amusement, given the highly circus-like approach that GoK is taking to such things; and (b), as I have indicated, I am primarily interested in why African governments refuse to get off the path to nowhere. Other than being painful for any African (whether in Africa or outside it), the latter is very important for the entire world because it has to keep cleaning up an never-ending string of avoidable large-scale messes.
(I still have issues with the man as a criminal, but that is another matter.)
In matters such as large-scale corruption, I would encourage Kenyans to avoid such a simplistic, "for Jubilee or against Jubilee" mindset. In Kenyatta's case, for example, Kenyans should have asked why he was issuing a warning instead of announcing that he had dealt with the problem. At the very least, he should have told them, clearly, how he would deal with the problem and by when. In my country (and most properly run countries) a president who took to the airwaves to tell the citizens that his office was where the head of the Corruption Snake was to be found would not last a week ... I was staggered that (a) the Kenyan president should in the first place announce that and (b) then promptly go back to business as usual; but, hey, kazi indelee, has to have a concrete meaning, right?
Are you sure you got the point? So, the video is from early November 2013. And since then, he's done exactly what? The real point is not whether it's "news" or not. That's what you should reflect on. That is what Kenyans need to reflect on ...
Anyways ... If you insist on a more recent "time is up! you have been warned!", go to His Excellency's own webpage:
www.president.go.ke/time-is-up-for-corrupt-officials-at-op-president-kenyatta/
"Time is up for corrupt officials at OP –President Kenyatta"
NAIROBI, 7 Feb, 2014 (PSCU) –Time is up for officers who have made corruption a way of life in conducting Government business, President Uhuru Kenyatta has warned.
"“In my office, there are people who think that it is a house for making money. We must agree it has to come to an end,” the President warned."
Maybe that is how things work in Kenya. I don't know. Me, myself, personally, I don't see that as something that requires agreement before it can be brought an end. What it requires is action. In any case, the corruption cartels in that office might not agree ...
And, according to Google, your His Excellency has also been quite busy warning all sorts of other groups. Will not be tolerated! Time is up! Stern warning! To be dealt with! Porojo iendelee.
If I thought Kenya could be salvaged in time my lifetime, I would reclaim my citizenship, as the law allows me to. As it is now, it is more like a first ex-spouse: love from the git-go, but an incorrigible dog of a man or biatch or a woman must, sooner or later, be let go. As with an ex-spouse, there is always some residual "historical affection" for the first one ... On the whole, increasingly I see Kenya as just another piece in the puzzle of Leaderless & Clueless Africa.
Kenya in a very short period has dished up numerous corruption scandals, Baragoi massacre, Tana River clashes, Westgate "home-made" terrorist attack, the discarding of the TJRC report, .... the list is endless. I read (on a near-daily basis) online versions of Kenyan newspapers, and all I can see are more and more signs of an increasingly dysfunctional country. Is there anyone who is in charge? Do Kenyans really care to move their country forward? (And by that I don't mean the bizarre joke that some refer to as Vision 2030.)
If, in the case of Kenya, people their get comfort in looking at it solely it terms of "pro/anti Jubilee", they should go for it. Comfort should never be under-rated. But, for their sake, I hope they will eventually get to actually look at the real issues. Those will never just walk away. Corruption is killing Kenya, as it has been for many years. Mama Mboga bribing somebody for this or that small thing, the local copper collecting his something small on the road, ... county governors who have "devolved" corruption and incompetence ... all the way to the top, where the president says "here is the head of the snake". And, having said that, does he cut off the head as anyone would? No! He warns the snake. And he returns every day to warn it and say that its bites are hurting!
Kenyans need to get out of the lazy comfort-zone of just sucking their own thumbs or things---for the latter they are willing to be bent into the most bizarre of shapes and positions---while dismissing the obvious with "oh, you just hate our-man/our-tribe/our-party/our-..." and their so-called leaders concoct the most absurd stories about "bad foreign elements bent on overthrowing our great & good government ..". Wake up, and get your shit together! Insist on a decent life and society right now. History should tell you that our-man/our-tribe/our-party/our-... will not deliver it solely on the basis that you have put all your faith there. Forget foolish, poorly-founded dreams of Vision This and Vision That when all the signs indicate otherwise. Demand answers and action of your so-called leaders. Alleged leaders, come up with something other than thrice-recycled bullshit!
I have a bit more to say, but, as it turns out, one of the things I have to do this week---and I am starting early---is to send out some letters for a fundraiser ... to help starving Kenyans. It appears that, yet once again, hunger stalks the land. You folks there can worry about laptops-for-babies. We here would rather not wait until filthy, skeletal kids, with flies buzzing all around appear on TVs, with pleas to the "international community" to "please do something". (You can thank me later, after I provide the details.)By the way ... I was amused that your His Excellency, after some of the things he's had to say lately about the Bad West, proudly announced that so many low-income Kenyans would be getting Sh. 2,000/- per month from now on and was praised for it. While stating that this was another of "Jubilee's promises fulfilled", he and Deputy forgot to say who's actually paying for that---the nasty West of course---or that they don't plan to pay indefinitely. Regular stuff ....
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 24, 2014 23:00:28 GMT 3
Kenyans should find comfort that the president has again warned corruption cartels. In fact, one of his sternest warnings has been to those operating in his own Office of The President, which he says is a leader in the "business".
"Time is up!" "Heads will roll!"
Great presidential stuff. At this rate, he will easily reach 100 stern warnings by the end of the year, at which point Kenyans will join picket lines and the corrupt will have no choice but to listen.
In the meantime ... kazi iendelee. Otishotish, posting a video from early November 2013 as if it were yesterday's news and "yet another warning" does not become thee. But then again, what can be expected from a rabid anti Jubilee hack. Porojo ianze.... Hey you two rascals, I know how I can use this video, while pretending it is fresh from the kitchen! I will poach it to the Quixotic thread, and give it a thorough quixotic update and run! In this thread we shall do SGR! By the way, have you guys noticed that Maina Kamanda and his transport committee have long since given the project a clean bill of health, even as Keynan's PIC is still stuck with the bone Kimunya in their throat!? These Mpigs never heard of co-ordination?
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 24, 2014 23:04:55 GMT 3
from the above one can clearly see the weakest link is the political players and hence the weaker player (UhuRuto) were clearly front runners and not the much maligned RAO. UhuRuto are clearly easier to manipulate as they have more baggage (ICC, impatient constituents in form of GEMA and Kamatusa ethnic elites, ....) Podp, you raise some interesting points. However, so as not to derail ( ) the SGR thread let me address the much maligned RAO question in Jakaswanga's Raila succession thread... podp, b6k, Were you by any chance aware that the prezzo himself had declared his office the HQs of corruption! it does not prove the SGR is corrupt, but is the confessional from the horse's own mouth circumstancial enough for you b6k?
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