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Post by b6k on Feb 24, 2014 23:23:48 GMT 3
Otishotish, how magnanimous of you to have lifted the self imposed "sanctions" you placed upon the land of your birth once the election results came in. What became of your grand scheme to fund projects anywhere else in the region except KE? Did you see the light right around the time your current country's leaders morphed from choices have consequences to essential contacts only & inevitably to yes we can work with KE? no doubt you will save many lives for which "I'm grateful" as Karim Khan would say to the bench over at the august court. Alas, I am attacking the messenger... Over the weekend I happened to watch a documentary called "Inside Job". Narrated by Matt Damon, it explained how the 2008 global economic meltdown originated in the US & ended up bringing most of the "developed" world's economy to its knees. In fact, the US of A very nearly had no economy to speak of had Uncle Sam not decided to "benevolently" bail out a number of the errant banks and Wall Street firms that caused the mess in the first place. I followed that with a dramatization of the same crisis, an HBO movie called "Too Big To Fail" starring William Hurt, James Woods, et al. Why am I telling you this you might be asking? Well, in short, corruption is EVERYWHERE! The greed that your shemejis showed dwarfs ANYTHING a tin pot African dictator, benevolent or otherwise could even dream about. The repercussions were global. Millions lost their life savings, livelihood, standard of living...you name it while the bankers and the Wall Street thugs laughed all the way to the bank. One interesting factoid I learned was that at the time of the meltdown, Tim Geithner was the president of the New York Federal Reserve. Being at ground zero of Wall Street (NYC) he was in the thick of things when it came to arranging all the bail outs that took American Wanjiku's monies out of the public coffers and put them right in the hands of a few private bankers hands. If you recall the bankers promptly forgot the funds were to keep their "businesses" afloat and went on dishing out hefty bonuses to themselves in the tens of millions of dollars. Bargoi massacres you say? Well one doesn't have to watch the news from the US without eventually learning of yet another massacre in a school yard. How many of our brothers are mowed down in the ghettos? How many are packed in US jails, a thriving industry as the US has the highest rate of citizens incarcerated in the world! putting to shame dictatorships such as your friends who you refer to as Kung fu? Don't Americans demand answers from their leaders for the savings & loans scandals, Enron's, sub prime crisis or the slaughter of their citizens at home? "For Jubilee or against Jubilee" you argue. I say you miss the point. There is no difference whether those in Jubilee are in power or those in CORD (or whatever it will be called shortly) are in power because that is as false a dichotomy as the struggle between the Republicans and the Democrats is. We are the 99% and until you see Jubilee and CORD for what they are (a rich man's club with feigned competition between the two) you will never understand why globally it is always SNAFU... I read the lamentations by yourself and Abdulmote about the hopelessness of thinking of ever returning to the land of your ancestors and was left shaking my head. Y'all prefer to take the easy way out to lead comfortable and predictable lives in countries, that can never really be your own, simply because systems work, buses/trains run on time, piped water is available 24/7, blackouts are unheard of (& on the rare occasions they do happen they cause SERIOUS chaos ), rigged elections never turn deadly. I prefer to live in good old East Africa where things work in fits and starts, people are "hustlers" because I know it is a work in progress. I could've stayed on in Les Etats Unis & enjoyed the standard of living offered by other peoples work in progress but I looked upon that option as a cop out. I recommend you watch the two movies mentioned above, if only to open your eyes that Africans do not have a monopoly on greed and corruption. There are much better players of this game in your foster country or others like it. PS: After successfully ensuring his banker friends were well taken care of post bailout, Geithner became Obama's Treasury Secretary. Kazi iliendelea. "Just the good ol' boys"...
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Post by b6k on Feb 24, 2014 23:30:27 GMT 3
Podp, you raise some interesting points. However, so as not to derail ( ) the SGR thread let me address the much maligned RAO question in Jakaswanga's Raila succession thread... podp, b6k, Were you by any chance aware that the prezzo himself had declared his office the HQs of corruption! it does not prove the SGR is corrupt, but is the confessional from the horse's own mouth circumstancial enough for you b6k? Jakaswanga, yes I was aware and that's why I called out the sage of ICC on it because it was too much deja vu for yours truly. As you rightly state, el presidente calling his office the HQ of corruption doesn't mean he believes the SGR deal is corrupt. He clearly said the corruption thrives at OP because of the security contracts which are rarely scrutinized in the light of day due to "national security" concerns...
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 25, 2014 0:29:40 GMT 3
Otishotish, how magnanimous of you to have lifted the self imposed "sanctions" you placed upon the land of your birth once the election results came in. What became of your grand scheme to fund projects anywhere else in the region except KE? Did you see the light right around the time your current country's leaders morphed from choices have consequences to essential contacts only & inevitably to yes we can work with KE? no doubt you will save many lives for which "I'm grateful" as Karim Khan would say to the bench over at the august court. Alas, I am attacking the messenger.. (See my point about "formers" and "residual affection".) I am still not a Kenyan citizen. At the same time, I am nevertheless a Kenyan and an African. For that reason, as well as because of a general interest in humanity, I remain concerned about Kenya and Africa. Starving people are starving people and need help. We here are, as usual, raising money for food, for school fees, for clean water ... In the meantime, over there it's the usual stuff about large-scale theft and corruption and ... In addition to what goes through our government, by way of taxes, we are directly putting in our hard-earned. It would be nice to have some expression of appreciation instead of insolence. And, yes, we do save many lives.
Yes, I have heard this argument. Many times. I can't think of a more stupid one:
First, whether or not there is corruption elsewhere does not solve Kenya's problems. Kenyans keep crying about corruption, and pointing out that it exists elsewhere does not help them. I really shouldn't have to make such an obvious point, but ...
Second, the issue is not whether there is corruption anywhere; we may accept that there is some in every country The issue is the extent to which it affects the everyday lives of most citizen. And I can assure you that the levels of corruption that exist in Kenya are not to be found all over the place.
www.transparency.org/
Corruption in Kenya is finishing Kenya and Kenyans. That is what Kenyans should deal with. Saying "oh, look over there" won't help them. Even your president, while he intends to do nothing about it, seems to realize that it should be a matter of concern, and he has expressed that without telling people "oh, this happens all over the world".
Look, your own president has been going around stating that the place is thoroughly rotten and that the rot starts where he is. Instead of worrying about America, you should start asking your president to do something.
US jails, Enron, ... what exactly does that have to do with the average Kenyan and his or her needs? And if you want to make comparisons with other countries, why not say something about countries that 50 years ago were worse off than Kenyans but today are so much ahead? As with corruption, the ills that afflict Kenya must be acknowledged and dealt with in the Kenyan context. The suffering Kenyans do not suffer any less if they are told that Americans, Europeans, ... also suffer in their own ways. In my view, "it also happens elsewhere" is part of the con. One-third of Kenya's children suffer from malnutrition, many Kenyans suffer from easily-prevented diseases (from a lack of clean water to failure to properly dispose of shit), insecurity, ... , an endless list, and today, here we have corruption. What does any of that have to do with any other country? If you insisting on dragging in other countries, then I suggest that you take, if you can, a much broader view. An example, would be to look at the "human development index", the factors that influence it, and where Kenya is. Start here: hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/reports/14/hdr2013_en_complete.pdf Good for you, buddy. I'm not so sure that it's as good for the majority of Kenyans or Africans. Far too many are led into this sort of thing:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Lampedusa_migrant_shipwreck
and that happens, on a smaller scale, all over the time. This is what we have today:
reliefweb.int/report/spain/100-african-migrants-force-way-spains-Melilla
Work in progress? Go look at Asia countries that were not much better off not too long ago. They have actually made some progress. Talk about real progress, not Vison This & That, work-in-progress silliness.
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Post by akinyi2005 on Feb 25, 2014 0:32:58 GMT 3
Otis fimbo yao
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Post by mank on Feb 25, 2014 7:46:10 GMT 3
.....Go look at Asia countries that were not much better off not too long ago. They have actually made some progress.... Amigo, you seem to be telling us that we, like the Asians, have hope ... yet it seems you are the least appreciative of that message. I know there is a lot of negatives in Kenya as in the Asian countries, but are there any positives? Is Kenya better or worse off than 15 years ago?
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Post by podp on Feb 25, 2014 12:56:53 GMT 3
.....Go look at Asia countries that were not much better off not too long ago. They have actually made some progress.... Amigo, you seem to be telling us that we, like the Asians, have hope ... yet it seems you are the least appreciative of that message. I know there is a lot of negatives in Kenya as in the Asian countries, but are there any positives? Is Kenya better or worse off than 15 years ago? why did Michela Wrong keep going back to the Heart of Darkness in an attempt to understand the puzzle? no man is a caricature, no individual can alone bear the responsibility for a nation's collapse. the disaster Congo (DRC) became, the dull political acquiescence of its people, had roots in a history of extraordinary outside interference, as basic motivation as it was elevated in rhetoric. the momentum behind Congo's free fall was generated not by one man but thousands of compliant collaborators, at home and abroad. www.amazon.com/In-Footsteps-Mr-Kurtz-Disaster/dp/0060934433"Our (South Korean) government does not want restraints in the South Korea-Japan relations. (Japan) is a valuable neighbor with which we should work with," Cho said, adding that it will be hard to mend ties with Japan until some basic conditions are met. In efforts to whitewash its history of wartime atrocities and intensify its military capacities, Japan, under the nationalistic Shinzo Abe administration, has renewed territorial claims to South Korea's easternmost islets of Dokdo. It has also made several moves to withdraw its previous repentance over its wartime atrocities, including the sexual enslavement of South Korean women during World War II. english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2014/02/25/23/0301000000AEN20140225007100315F.htmlso while Japan colonized and subjugated Korea even today the latter talks bitterly of what the former did to it... and in its endevours to become a first world it has never gone back to its rapist for any lessons! that in part explains the difference between the Asians and us (Africans). again Wrong wonders...the spirit, once comprehensively crushed, does not recover easily. the question we are researching on 'is any causal link between Britain's exploitative regime and the excesses of Jomo Kenyatta's to Kibaki's rule, whether a frighteningly efficient kleptocratic system effectively softened up a community for repeat performance'? here we can extend the research later when UhuRuto will no longer be on the scene by asking and answering 'it is possible to be traumatized without knowing why; that indeed, amnesia - whether individual or collective - can sometimes be the only way of dealing with horror, that human behavior can be altered forever without the cause being openly acknowledged'. for the first question use the ethnic enclaves of the PORKs as the study specimen and for the last one Kenyans.
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Post by b6k on Feb 25, 2014 17:58:13 GMT 3
Otishotish, you sure is one funny negro. I see you have latched on to a new "baby" now that the ICC has miscarried, eh? Corruption is so much easier to nag about than "prochured" injustice, I suppose... As a non Kenyan citizen, what hard earned anything are you putting through our coffers? I bet you enjoy tax rebates/write offs in you foster country since you can prove you are assisting starving Turkanas in KE or marauding natives in whatever happens to be the crisis of the day. You may save some lives, but it is yet another switch and bait, money making exercise as you are paid & rewarded for your benevolence, au sio? Not to mention all those brownie points you enjoy as you speak of the despicable things that go on in the old country that you left behind when you kowtow to your shemejis over wine and cheese. "Oh these Africans. They never can learn anything can they? Tsk tsk". If ragging on your former people makes you sleep at night, all power to you, mate. Quantify your statement that corruption found in Kenya is above and beyond corruption found anywhere else in the world. You're a facts and figures guy aren't you? Post the figures right here for all to see and judge the per capita effect of economic shenanigans in the west vs in KE as you claim. If you search through the archives of Jukwaa you will find that praise of the Asian Tigers was covered eons ago by yours truly and others. Lee Kwan Yew in particular got several honorable mentions as the quintessential "benevolent dictator" by yours truly. So what do you suggest we do? Give up and move to the west because we never had a leader of similar caliber? I say nyiet! We can moan and groan all we like but at the end of the day we have to come to terms with the fact that the old adage that a people gets the leadership they deserve is actually true. All our leaders are, after all, 99.9% Kenya born and bred. Few may have had the opportunity to study abroad but at the end of the day our leaders being essentially Kenyan will end up taking the path of least resistance and doing things the Kenyan way. You call it Jua kali, I call it a work in progress. Corruption is "finishing Kenya"? I highly doubt that. Finishing implies finality. Naturally it's not desirable to have a corrupt ruling class but you've shown me little to disprove the fact that our Goldenberg's or Anglo-fleecings differ in a big way from the Enron's or Lockheed scandals of your adopted country. I say again, corruption IS everywhere. So what have you done about it in YOUR country Othisothat? Here in KE we live with it and move on....
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Post by b6k on Feb 25, 2014 18:16:35 GMT 3
[/p] Work in progress? Go look at Asia countries that were not much better off not too long ago. They have actually made some progress. Talk about real progress, not Vison This & That, work-in-progress silliness. [/quote] Otishotish, when it comes to "Vision 2030 silliness" I actually do agree with you: It appears you can get a politician in a monkey suit to say just about anything about the so called Vision 2030, eh?
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Post by podp on Feb 25, 2014 21:05:56 GMT 3
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 25, 2014 21:20:24 GMT 3
I think we need a Kenya Industrialisation Authority, headed by a panel of Engineers. That they concisely explain the technical sides. How much of a technical challenge is it to pimp-up a diesel-engines custom-built SGR into an electrical rail-line? What is the longevity of the diesel locomotives to be bought? It would be a sin to throw them away 2 years into service while their warranty is half a century!
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Post by podp on Feb 26, 2014 7:51:15 GMT 3
I think we need a Kenya Industrialisation Authority, headed by a panel of Engineers. That they concisely explain the technical sides. How much of a technical challenge is it to pimp-up a diesel-engines custom-built SGR into an electrical rail-line? What is the longevity of the diesel locomotives to be bought? It would be a sin to throw them away 2 years into service while their warranty is half a century! last time an Industrialization policy was heard of a draft was ready, but that was during the Nusu Mkate era file:///C:/Users/asua/Downloads/REVISED%20NIP%20DRAFT%20FIVE%20-%20CombiCabinet Secretary for Ministry of Industrialization and Enterprise Developmentned%2018-11-2010%20Revised.pdf there have been nice sounds from the Cabinet Secretary for Ministry of Industrialization and Enterprise Development on launch of industrialization policy
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Post by omundu on Feb 26, 2014 13:32:02 GMT 3
Otishotish, how magnanimous of you to have lifted the self imposed "sanctions" you placed upon the land of your birth once the election results came in. What became of your grand scheme to fund projects anywhere else in the region except KE? Did you see the light right around the time your current country's leaders morphed from choices have consequences to essential contacts only & inevitably to yes we can work with KE? no doubt you will save many lives for which "I'm grateful" as Karim Khan would say to the bench over at the august court. Alas, I am attacking the messenger.. (See my point about "formers" and "residual affection".) I am still not a Kenyan citizen. At the same time, I am nevertheless a Kenyan and an African. For that reason, as well as because of a general interest in humanity, I remain concerned about Kenya and Africa. Starving people are starving people and need help. We here are, as usual, raising money for food, for school fees, for clean water ... In the meantime, over there it's the usual stuff about large-scale theft and corruption and ... In addition to what goes through our government, by way of taxes, we are directly putting in our hard-earned. It would be nice to have some expression of appreciation instead of insolence. And, yes, we do save many lives.
Yes, I have heard this argument. Many times. I can't think of a more stupid one:
First, whether or not there is corruption elsewhere does not solve Kenya's problems. Kenyans keep crying about corruption, and pointing out that it exists elsewhere does not help them. I really shouldn't have to make such an obvious point, but ...
Second, the issue is not whether there is corruption anywhere; we may accept that there is some in every country The issue is the extent to which it affects the everyday lives of most citizen. And I can assure you that the levels of corruption that exist in Kenya are not to be found all over the place.
www.transparency.org/
Corruption in Kenya is finishing Kenya and Kenyans. That is what Kenyans should deal with. Saying "oh, look over there" won't help them. Even your president, while he intends to do nothing about it, seems to realize that it should be a matter of concern, and he has expressed that without telling people "oh, this happens all over the world".
Look, your own president has been going around stating that the place is thoroughly rotten and that the rot starts where he is. Instead of worrying about America, you should start asking your president to do something.
US jails, Enron, ... what exactly does that have to do with the average Kenyan and his or her needs? And if you want to make comparisons with other countries, why not say something about countries that 50 years ago were worse off than Kenyans but today are so much ahead? As with corruption, the ills that afflict Kenya must be acknowledged and dealt with in the Kenyan context. The suffering Kenyans do not suffer any less if they are told that Americans, Europeans, ... also suffer in their own ways. In my view, "it also happens elsewhere" is part of the con. One-third of Kenya's children suffer from malnutrition, many Kenyans suffer from easily-prevented diseases (from a lack of clean water to failure to properly dispose of shit), insecurity, ... , an endless list, and today, here we have corruption. What does any of that have to do with any other country? If you insisting on dragging in other countries, then I suggest that you take, if you can, a much broader view. An example, would be to look at the "human development index", the factors that influence it, and where Kenya is. Start here: hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/reports/14/hdr2013_en_complete.pdf Good for you, buddy. I'm not so sure that it's as good for the majority of Kenyans or Africans. Far too many are led into this sort of thing:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Lampedusa_migrant_shipwreck
and that happens, on a smaller scale, all over the time. This is what we have today:
reliefweb.int/report/spain/100-african-migrants-force-way-spains-Melilla
Work in progress? Go look at Asia countries that were not much better off not too long ago. They have actually made some progress. Talk about real progress, not Vison This & That, work-in-progress silliness. Thank you Otish I thought i was the only one who found it strange that someone now uses America to justify the unjustifiable. Basically, what he is saying is, "yes, we know it is wrong, but the fact that america does it, sort of justifies the wrong" Its called 'self justification' which enamates from that unpleasant feeling that sociologists call cognitive dissonance
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Post by podp on Apr 3, 2014 20:32:15 GMT 3
In the country, he reiterated the government’s efforts in ensuring that all parts of the country have developed adequate roads, affordable electricity supply and clean drinking water to satisfy all basic infrastructural needs. Also he underscored measures taken by the East African Community (EAC) to prioritise development of key regional transport corridors to support trade and investments. This includes infrastructural projects like the rehabilitation and expansion of the Northern Corridor connecting the port of Mombasa with Kampala, Kigali, Bujumbura and the Eastern parts of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) and the improvement of the Central Corridor connecting the port of Dar-es-Salaam with Bujumbura, Kigali and the DRC. “Further, we believe that the entry point into developing a comprehensive continental infrastructure hinges on regional integration and cooperation, which is high on the political agenda of Africa,” added Mr Kenyatta in his capacity as EAC’s chairman. The President welcomed continued collaboration between Africa and the European Union in achieving the continent’s development goals. “Together we can realise the vision of developing Africa’s regional and continental infrastructure and promote socio – economic development and poverty reduction across the continent,” he added. www.nation.co.ke/business/infrastructure/Support-infrastructure-investment-Uhuru-tells-EU-Africa-Summit/-/1959776/2268742/-/sxhhb3z/-/index.htmlthis is very positive reporting. we need to know what African countries came out with
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 7, 2016 20:35:11 GMT 3
This is what others are saying about the project. Omundustrong, it is three years later and some reports say the SGR is steaming ahead of time to early completion. But others are saying this: The World Bank's history of stupid, stupidly expensive and failed (white elephant) projects in Africa does not make the organisation one of the more quotable authrotites, unless one flips it upside down and infers they --the WB, are such weather-beaten experts on over-inflated projects in Afria and beyond they know one when they see one! They are only regretting they are not the party ripping us off! But it would be nice to have out institute of econometrics publish their own analytical data. it would be nice to quote a Kenyan expert on a Kenyan thing --which is not rockeet science! NB: I actually know Bad Boy Ndii from the start was of the opinion REHABILITATION the now bush-colonised Uganda Railway tracks was a fairer option! it is a pity we are looking at 80km/hr top speed. That is mkokoteni. I have done TGV Brussels to Marsailles just for the experience, and I would have loved Mombasa Nairobi at the slow march of 180km/hr. Kisumu Nairobi has some corrugated rift valley challeges and would require alpine engineering techniques to sustain even a 100km/hr stretch.
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Post by jakaswanga on Aug 17, 2016 20:02:14 GMT 3
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 3, 2017 20:26:34 GMT 3
Good to keep in the archives of Jukwaa, a perspective! To be continued!
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Post by jakaswanga on May 31, 2017 22:21:01 GMT 3
MADARAKA EXPRESS OPENS FOR SERVICE No, there was no Joho at the launch on May 31-2017! It pleased the heart of Uhuruto to pretend Governor 001 is a nobody in Mombasa! What an anti-climax! The governor of the country at which the Madaraka express was launched, was barred from the official function attended by the President and his vice. Even on an occasion where pettiness should be avoided, Don Quixote and Pancha come out full in regressive attire! www.nation.co.ke/news/Hassan-Joho-blocked-from-SGR-launch-in-Miritini/1056-3949220-15k0ixl/ Anyway a Chinese firm will be operating the railway until they recover the costs and interests. That is at least 10 years --unless of course we find some other way to pay faster. This prudence on the part of the Chinese is the big story. I read in an eastern quarterly that the Kenyans and their state are not known to run anything successfully. That the company which out-performs all local companies past even total government revenues is called SAFARICOM, and those who own it have never trusted it to a Kenyan, which would point to the need for the Chinese to run the expensive railway themselves if they are not to loose their big money! Now, we cant run our beautiful railway with its 19th century technology, and here we are, the top political leadership fighting amongst themselves who should wave the flag to launch it! ---Wich dinyni gimarach ndi! (infantile antics by Uhuruto, even if they are understandly scare of public scrutiny of the construction cost of the 'exorbitant express'! They say Joho refused to come in like Ababu Namwamba did! so the state hath some fury to meet his way!
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 9, 2018 21:49:05 GMT 3
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 9, 2018 21:57:09 GMT 3
It is an old tale, railway workers and Unions! Our SGR-workers aren't there yet, but they will be, where Markan Singh, Chege Kibicho and the rest were, back in the 1930s of last century! You know, guys like Tom Mboya whose assassination anniversary was 5th July, workers rights was their first love! They were Union men!How did it come to this!? 55 years after independence!? The nation searches her soul, I fear what she might find ticking there!
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 12, 2018 21:44:01 GMT 3
A can of worms!
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Post by jakaswanga on Aug 17, 2019 14:33:41 GMT 3
FOOTNOTE: That we pay TWICE the cost is not China's problem. That is our problem, letting vermin like Thugge and Rotich do the math. Afica will be modernised, even if Africans themselves do everthing to sabotage it. Once you understand this simple fact, you wil be safe. If Africans wont do it, someone else will ---determine Africa's future. Only the African peoples will cry more than they otherwise would, if they were to do it themselves. The SGR will go to Bujumbura, Kampala and Kigali. ----even if M7 and Kagame, like cheap sheep, close their borders to prevent it! They will inflate the price like Jubilee did, get their mandatory cut, and give way to the future.
NB: It was te British who built the first lunatic express. Now the Chinese build the second. Another century and maybe the Africans will build one too!
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