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Post by Omwenga on Dec 29, 2013 21:08:41 GMT 3
In this week’s Star column Why President Uhuru's ICC Case Won't Stand, I remind everyone what I have been saying all along about these ICC cases, which has been very consistent notwithstanding accusations to the contrary that this is a recent conversion of yours truly ascribed to various motives or reasons that are all actually false. Since arriving on the ground to this point, everyone I am running into has been asking the same questions several have fielded in my Inbox for several weeks as to why am I now “suddenly” supporting Uhuru and Jubilee but my answer has been very much the same as I have said in the past and that’s I call things the way I see them. But everyone has their reasons thy ascribe to me nipende nisipende! Indeed, I heard so many of these reasons, especially from those who are now calling me all manner of names–even to my face (albeit jokingly when you know they mean it), I decided to pen this column to remind people of how wrong they are. Even a prominent Jukwaiist I met in Nairobi told he was hearing the same things I have been hearing. Sometimes you just have to call a spade, a spade and this is what I have done with respect to this issue. Interestingly, someone defending me at some joint in one of the social gathering I happened to be in Nairobi a few days ago when the issue was rather loudly raised, said I have become a nationalist. He said this hardly moments after he himself had accused me of being driven by some of the same fake reasons others were raising in low tones elsewhere within the vicinity–but nothing I hadn’t heard before. I therefore wasn’t sure whether he was being sarcastic or real but I did say in response to him and everyone there within earsight I have always been a nationalist and anyone who follows my writings would readily attest to that if intellectually honest. There couldn’t be a better time for all of us to be nationalists for once than this very period we’re in. Let’s hope we’re.
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on Jan 30, 2014 22:36:37 GMT 3
www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/press%20and%20media/press%20releases/Pages/pr980.aspxOne of the judges in the Uhuru Kenyatta’s trial at the International Criminal Court (ICC) has requested to withdraw from the case. The ICC Presidency announced that following a request from Judge Chile Eboe-Osuji to withdraw from the case, the Trial Chamber will be re-constituted to replace Judge Eboe-Osuji with Judge Geoffrey Henderson, a native of Trinidada and Tobago. Looks like Madam Bensouda made a calculative move to have the trial postponed cos the New Judge now needs to be brought upto speed on this. Right now shuttle diplomacy can now take off as has been the case in the past. mobile.nation.co.ke/News/Kenya+gave+us+46+oil+wells+claims+Nigerian++Petroleum+minister+/-/1950946/1993006/-/format/xhtml/-/147wfmf/-/index.htmlKenya gave us 46 oil wells, claims Nigerian Petroleum minister.Nigeria’s Minister for Petroleum Resources Diezani Alison-Madueke told the State-run News Agency of Nigeria after the Kenyan visit that the concession was given in talks preceding an investment forum held in Nairobi on September 6. This was, however, not made public during the three-day visit that started on September 5.
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Post by podp on Jan 30, 2014 23:17:52 GMT 3
www.icc-cpi.int/en_menus/icc/press%20and%20media/press%20releases/Pages/pr980.aspxOne of the judges in the Uhuru Kenyatta’s trial at the International Criminal Court (ICC) has requested to withdraw from the case. The ICC Presidency announced that following a request from Judge Chile Eboe-Osuji to withdraw from the case, the Trial Chamber will be re-constituted to replace Judge Eboe-Osuji with Judge Geoffrey Henderson, a native of Trinidada and Tobago.Looks like Madam Bensouda made a calculative move to have the trial postponed cos the New Judge now needs to be brought upto speed on this. Right now shuttle diplomacy can now take off as has been the case in the past. mobile.nation.co.ke/News/Kenya+gave+us+46+oil+wells+claims+Nigerian++Petroleum+minister+/-/1950946/1993006/-/format/xhtml/-/147wfmf/-/index.htmlKenya gave us 46 oil wells, claims Nigerian Petroleum minister.Nigeria’s Minister for Petroleum Resources Diezani Alison-Madueke told the State-run News Agency of Nigeria after the Kenyan visit that the concession was given in talks preceding an investment forum held in Nairobi on September 6. This was, however, not made public during the three-day visit that started on September 5. the English here will be changed from Queens to TT (Trinidad and Tobago) and the remaining witnesses will be hunted down and when one is dead (killed by human hand or natural causes) the Prosecutor will again proclaim witness has withdrawn. when you deal with dark forces you need to be darker to overcome them. any idea why Silva Kiir the illustrious PORSS of South Sudan deemed it clever to release his detainees to our PORK?
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Post by kamalet on Jan 31, 2014 11:37:07 GMT 3
The good judge has had three previous excusal requests rejected by the presidency and the new TT judge presented the opportunity to ask to be excluded. All this information is in the detailed decisions
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Post by mank on Jan 31, 2014 18:27:16 GMT 3
. I think the verdict of that move will be best judged by the court's oratory of February 5. In the meantime I find it difficult to imagine a calculative move in an event where the prosecutor declared in public that she has committed a man to trial without sufficient evidence to sustain trial.
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on Jan 31, 2014 20:25:27 GMT 3
The good judge has had three previous excusal requests rejected by the presidency and the new TT judge presented the opportunity to ask to be excluded. All this information is in the detailed decisions I do think that is wishful thinking. He owes his election as a judge to President Goodluck. The link explains. www.thisdaylive.com/articles/nigerian-emerges-icc-judge/105290/......In an election that also threw up the age-long Anglophone and Francophone dichotomy in Africa, top officials of the Nigerian Mission to the UN, including the officer incharge of elections at the Mission, Mr. Richard Adejola, engaged in high-level diplomacy throughout the week to ensure that Nigeria, and indeed Africa, clinched one of the available six slots on the ICC bench. In a brief interview with THISDAY in New York on Saturday, Eboe-Osuji, described his victory as a "humbling experience", and thanked President Goodluck Jonathan, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Olugbenga Ashiru, Attonney General of the Federation, Mohammed Adoke, and the Permanent Representative to the UN, Prof. Joy Ogwu, for their support. Eboe-Osuji, whose candidacy, and that of Mauritius, were endorsed by the African Union had served as Legal Advisor to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights in the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights in Geneva, Switzerland, and also worked at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda (ICTR), where he served as Principal Legal Adviser to the Chambers between 2008 and 2009.
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Post by Omwenga on Jan 31, 2014 23:47:38 GMT 3
It's very obvious what must be going on is the parties are trying to find the best way to conclude the case against Uhuru without a trial and with as little noise as possible. The substitution of the judges is only a tip of the goings on (read struggles) both inside and outside--way outside even as far as New York and Nairobi.
In the end, it wouldn't matter as all three shall walk free.
Let me advance a new thinking I have about this for the record:
While it's becoming more and more clear that Uhuru may not even be tried at all,or is tried but found not guilty, Ruto may find himself acquitted but facing a decision of the court which accuses him of having committed crimes that don't fall within the jurisdiction of the ICC.
One can only imagine what bearing such finding will have on the political interests of either or both of these leaders.
That being said, the money is on Ruto being acquitted outright with Uhuru not even being tried at all.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 2:38:24 GMT 3
Interesting and amusing stuff, from Bensouda being tricky to deep and heavy calculations going on all over the place. And, "quite rightly", those in the know will not even attempt sketchy explanations as to why we should buy. Here is what the rest of us, mere mortals, know***:
(1) A critical OTP witness (#12), who claimed to have been present at a key State-House meeting, has now stated that he made it up or got it from somebody who was there. Or something. And his buddy (#11), also a critical witness, has suddenly developed cold feet.
That creates obvious problems for the prosecutor, and, if suitable replacement cannot be found, one need not strain the neurons to see that the case could collapse, regardless of whether or not the court grant's the OTP's request for a delay.
(2) As Kamale points out, Eboe-Osuji, apparently citing workload issues, has been trying to get off the Uhuru case for quite some time. ( It is, however, not unreasonable to assume that there might be an adjournment solely to give the new guy some time to get up to speed. Who knows.)
***Our "evidence" consists of publicly available court records, although I do not rule out the possibility that wanyee will find a vast conspiracy behind such records.
Sometimes things really are as they appear to be ...
I read the Star article that "gave birth" to this thread. Uhuru's name appears three times, in three short sentences, and with the last appearance, we get the explanation alluded to in the "why" of the title.
"If Ruto walks free, Uhuru does as well on that basis alone. It’s just inconceivable that the ICC can convict the president after acquitting Ruto. It’s that simple."
Precisely. That's it. If we cannot imagine something, how could it possibly happen? Inconceivable. I like the word.
In other news: Kenyatta Kenya thanked the African Union, made a $1 million donation (for "peace"), and asked that the battle against the ICC continue. One million. That's a lot of dog-meat for starving Kenyans ... Kazi iendelee. Accept and move on.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Feb 1, 2014 4:06:29 GMT 3
Omwenga,
Good stuff born of good thinking. The truth is, ICC is struggling with these cases, its image is at stake and her officers too are beginning to fear for their reputation outside and beyond the ICC. No judge worth his/her credentials and name would want to preside over such a case. A case, which they know deep down does not hold anything, but have to nonetheless wait for a call advising them accordingly. One only needs to listen to the ongoing Ruto and Sang trial to understand how embarrassing it must be for these judges. I am not surprised with Judge Eboe-Osuji's decision.
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 8:06:41 GMT 3
Omwenga, Good stuff born of good thinking. The truth is, ICC is struggling with these cases, its image is at stake and her officers too are beginning to fear for their reputation outside and beyond the ICC. No judge worth his/her credentials and name would want to preside over such a case. A case, which they know deep down does not hold anything, but have to nonetheless wait for a call advising them accordingly. One only needs to listen to the ongoing Ruto and Sang trial to understand how embarrassing it must be for these judges. I am not surprised with Judge Eboe-Osuji's decision. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Yes, no greater stuff could be born of greater thinking. I salute all. Truth. Fear. Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment.Indeed. Exciting. But before we look at those, we should get the facts out of the way ... (1) This thread appears to be about Uhuru's case, and the presiding judge in the Uhuru case is Ozaki. (2) Ozaki asked to be taken off the Ruto-Sang case on the grounds that she already had her hands full, and she was taken off the case. A new judge (Fremr) had just joined the court, so the load could be transferred It is astonishing that the wanyees did not get so excited over that one: "the substitution of the judges is only a tip of the goings on (read struggles) both inside and outside--way outside even as far as New York and Nairobi."(3) Late last summer, Oga Chief-Oh, the presiding judge in the Ruto-Sang case, starts asking to be taken off the Uhuru case. And to support his case, he says: " look at how it went with the Ozaki!". Fast forward, fast forward, ... a new judge has just joined the court, so ... (4) The replacement or re-assignment of judges is not unknown at the ICC, in cases other than the Kenyan ones. In fact that sort of thing happens all the time, in courts all over the world. Alright, that takes care of the basic facts. Let's now live dangerously ... Applying Wanyee Logic, we get: (5) If a judge asks to be replaced in a Kenyan case, it signals the collapse of the case. Truth. Fear. Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment. Good stuff born of good thinking. And we know that: (6) A judge in one Ruto-Sang case has asked to be taken off the case, and a judge in the Uhuru case has asked to be taken off that case. (7) A brief conversation secretly recorded by a Jukwaaist ... Ozaki-san: " Chief-oh, I am the presiding judge in the other case, and I want out of this one because it is collapsing". Oga Chief-Oh: " No, no, no. This case is fine. I know that because I am the presiding judge. But I want out of your case because it is collapsing." (8) From which we deduce, by Special Logic, that the cases have indeed collapsed. But wait! There's more! Apparently the Americans (NSA etc.) have been recording all sorts of stuff, all over the place. Let's say you---I mean "you" in the general sense, not you, you reading this right now ... you would never do it. But let's say you were on, say, a Skype or phone conversation, and you farted loudly. And a real stinky one at that. News: the Americans could have it recorded, with all sorts of other details included. And scientists have for some time been working on what I am told is an "electronic nose". So sooner or later, they will be able to smell it. And they know who you are, what you did, and where you are. Yes, I can "hear" the question in your mind: what does this have to do with collapsing cases? For my safety---and yours as well---I can't tell you too much. I wish I could tell you more, but there are other considerations ... Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment. But take this from me: there are all sorts of things happening between New York and Nairobi. Inside and outside. Up and down. Big things. Even small things for small defendants. All sorts of struggles. And the Americans are recording all of it ... Stay well, but be careful about where you fart. Someone, somewhere can smell it ... or will eventually be able to.
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Post by jakaswanga on Feb 1, 2014 10:36:01 GMT 3
Gentlemen! There are two issues I always need to hear argued. Why cases collapse, and other reasons for acquittal. In our Kenya I always feel uneasy when people explain collapsing cases without the obvious. You lawyers, help me out here.
1. Has there been widespread, provable elimination of -ICC- witnesses in Kenya? 2. Has there been numerous disappearances of the same? Though the causes are debatable. 3. The competence of the investigation process: How defining or determining is a shoddy investigation? Especially when faced with good caliber lawyers.
One thing I am ready to argue –comparatively looking at the forensic details availed from Bosnia Hercegovina during the trials of the ethnic kingpins there like Karadcic and Milosevic, is that Ocampo was technically a hoax. He really lacked in instruments to investigate, and his chosen methodology foolishly underestimated his brief, which was an attempt to decapitate a section of the Kenyan ruling class who owned the state apparatus.
Even in Serbia of former Yugoslavia, it was only after Slobodan Milosevic had been uprooted by his own people, that he was wheeled off to the Hague. And General Mladic was effectively protected by commando units of the Serbian army for over ten years, before he was sold by a new generation of politicians facing a severe economic crisis. The EU handed Servia a total bail-out package in exchange, because Mladic at his peak, had overrun and arrested NATO soldiers and tied them to walls to prevent a NATO bombing campaign. It was very humiliating and hilarious actually. Maldic feeding juicy pawpaw to French soldiers bound to lamp-posts! And ordering a dutch major to drink with him and toast to Christian brotherhood! It was more theater than war! NATO swore revenge at any price.
These judges of ours, how independent are they? They try to be I am sure, but they can not just be puppets of political pressures, for that will indeed ruin not only their individual reputations, but also discredit the ICC. And there is still enough international political traction not to destroy the institute completely.
The Kenyan case drastically reveals the structural limitations of the court in this model. ---The model without a real investigative arm. The model where it depends on the cooperation of the possible criminals to collect evidence against themselves. ---There is a right for one not to incriminate themselves, and so, that the Kenyan state refused to cooperate would be a foregone conclusion.
But on the upside is: the mess becomes ours completely. The wound festers within our body politic, and the resolution will come, our own style, whatever evil or holy absolution form it takes.
When did the Oga chief realise his workload is too great? The Uhuru case has been postponed several times, living him with lots of room in his agenda! The man should have had a better sense of his abilities to concentrate on two cases long ago, and saved everybody the trouble of speculation. Now, it is reasonable to think, he is just throwing in the towel, under AU duress.
Not that that duress is not highly profitable.
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Post by einstein on Feb 1, 2014 12:33:47 GMT 3
Omwenga, Good stuff born of good thinking. The truth is, ICC is struggling with these cases, its image is at stake and her officers too are beginning to fear for their reputation outside and beyond the ICC. No judge worth his/her credentials and name would want to preside over such a case. A case, which they know deep down does not hold anything, but have to nonetheless wait for a call advising them accordingly. One only needs to listen to the ongoing Ruto and Sang trial to understand how embarrassing it must be for these judges. I am not surprised with Judge Eboe-Osuji's decision. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Yes, no greater stuff could be born of greater thinking. I salute all. Truth. Fear. Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment.Indeed. Exciting. But before we look at those, we should get the facts out of the way ... (1) This thread appears to be about Uhuru's case, and the presiding judge in the Uhuru case is Ozaki. (2) Ozaki asked to be taken off the Ruto-Sang case on the grounds that she already had her hands full, and she was taken off the case. A new judge (Fremr) had just joined the court, so the load could be transferred It is astonishing that the wanyees did not get so excited over that one: "the substitution of the judges is only a tip of the goings on (read struggles) both inside and outside--way outside even as far as New York and Nairobi."(3) Late last summer, Oga Chief-Oh, the presiding judge in the Ruto-Sang case, starts asking to be taken off the Uhuru case. And to support his case, he says: " look at how it went with the Ozaki!". Fast forward, fast forward, ... a new judge has just joined the court, so ... (4) The replacement or re-assignment of judges is not unknown at the ICC, in cases other than the Kenyan ones. In fact that sort of thing happens all the time, in courts all over the world. Alright, that takes care of the basic facts. Let's now live dangerously ... Applying Wanyee Logic, we get: (5) If a judge asks to be replaced in a Kenyan case, it signals the collapse of the case. Truth. Fear. Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment. Good stuff born of good thinking. And we know that: (6) A judge in one Ruto-Sang case has asked to be taken off the case, and a judge in the Uhuru case has asked to be taken off that case. (7) A brief conversation secretly recorded by a Jukwaaist ... Ozaki-san: " Chief-oh, I am the presiding judge in the other case, and I want out of this one because it is collapsing". Oga Chief-Oh: " No, no, no. This case is fine. I know that because I am the presiding judge. But I want out of your case because it is collapsing." (8) From which we deduce, by Special Logic, that the cases have indeed collapsed. But wait! There's more! Apparently the Americans (NSA etc.) have been recording all sorts of stuff, all over the place. Let's say you---I mean "you" in the general sense, not you, you reading this right now ... you would never do it. But let's say you were on, say, a Skype or phone conversation, and you farted loudly. And a real stinky one at that. News: the Americans could have it recorded, with all sorts of other details included. And scientists have for some time been working on what I am told is an "electronic nose". So sooner or later, they will be able to smell it. And they know who you are, what you did, and where you are. Yes, I can "hear" the question in your mind: what does this have to do with collapsing cases? For my safety---and yours as well---I can't tell you too much. I wish I could tell you more, but there are other considerations ... Reputation. Credentials. Embarrassment. But take this from me: there are all sorts of things happening between New York and Nairobi. Inside and outside. Up and down. Big things. Even small things for small defendants. All sorts of struggles. And the Americans are recording all of it ... Stay well, but be careful about where you fart. Someone, somewhere can smell it ... or will eventually be able to. OtishOtish,This retort is simply brilliant and very friendly at the same time!! How can the Wanyees of this world be so shallow?!
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Post by Omwenga on Feb 1, 2014 14:25:43 GMT 3
Omwenga, Good stuff born of good thinking. The truth is, ICC is struggling with these cases, its image is at stake and her officers too are beginning to fear for their reputation outside and beyond the ICC. No judge worth his/her credentials and name would want to preside over such a case. A case, which they know deep down does not hold anything, but have to nonetheless wait for a call advising them accordingly. One only needs to listen to the ongoing Ruto and Sang trial to understand how embarrassing it must be for these judges. I am not surprised with Judge Eboe-Osuji's decision. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ Mwalimumkuu,There's no denying Judge Eboe-Osuji's opting out has a lot to do with the collapsing case against Uhuru than anything else which in turn has something to do with a divided ICC court that must vote on certain issues such as what to do with the cases. The current composition of the court is such that Uhuru only needs one judge to flip and the whole thing will be history in his favor. That's assuming the case proceeds further instead of being thrown out as it now likely will. It's understandable those in denial will try and find every conceivable logic and presupposition to maintain their sanity or feed their hunger for the impossible but there's nothing wrong with that; an element of soothing is necessary in such cases and if that's chest-thumbing that one has dissected a rat successfully when they haven't, everything considered, then good for them in as far as maintaining their sanity or feeding their hunger for the impossible. The rest of us must call it as we see it and right now it's as we're saying it is, namely, a scramble to find the quickest way and less noisy way to dispatch Uhuru's case--and no, NSA has nothing to do and neither would it have any effect on deliberations to that effect that for sure must be going on between and among the key players relative to this issue in the Hague, New York, Nairobi and of course, Washington. Soon, all this shall all come to pass in a manner not inconsistent with the large, bold writings on the wall screaming what we're saying here and have been saying for some time and that's forget about having any of these leaders convicted. Justice for the victims must be had elsewhere and I have been saying that must be at home and I am here not talking about criminal justice for the train left the station on that a long time ago question is where is the destination and how long before it gets there. Not the Hague for "justice" will never be had there no matter the outcome. I say so and put "justice" in quotation marks because I know fully well for some--indeed, many, justice is the trial and conviction of Uhuru while for others it's the conviction of Ruto while yet others it's the conviction of both after trial which will not happen as others like us continue to maintain. Peace, reconciliation and unity is the way to go now. ICC as it relates to the Kenya cases is a already a thing of the past in my view.
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Post by mank on Feb 1, 2014 19:45:50 GMT 3
I honestly don't think the cases are caving for any international pressure - and if there is any international pressure at all, it is either redundant, or the ICC is never about truth. Let's be honest to the process!
The great stories of responsibility that were heard through the mouths of OTP going into these cases have collapsed on themselves. It is more interesting that the cases are still going on than that they seem to be coming to an end! One just needs to pay attention to the twists and turns that have unfolded in "witness evidence"!
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 20:39:51 GMT 3
There's no denying Judge Eboe-Osuji's opting out has a lot to do with the collapsing case against Uhuru than anything else which in turn has something to do with a divided ICC court that must vote on certain issues such as what to do with the cases. The judge's first request to be replaced was made in Aug 2013, and the second one was made in Oct 2013. What evidence can one cite to justify any claim that the cases were collapsing or near-collapsing then? If they were made because the case was collapsing, then he must be a very strange man, given what he had to say, in Dec 2013, on the Defence's antics to stop the case: I have observed once before that the Defence Counsel in this case are jointly and severally among the most experienced in the practice of international criminal law. If it had truly appeared to them that the case they make in these applications could conceivably attract the very drastic and exceptional remedy of permanent stay of proceedings, it surely must have occurred to them that they could—more profitably—convert their complaint into a strategy of a criminal defence that is aimed at raising reasonable doubt on the merits of the case. But they seek, rather, a strategy the aim of which is to abort trial—amidst widely publicised extra-judicial manoeuvres that were similarly aimed at aborting trial on the merits.Sounds very much like a guy who thinks the trial should go on, and, presumably, he has good reason to believe that they should. Now, the cases could collapse for any number of reasons. We accept that. What we do not accept is the claim that certain people have deep, inside knowledge of things going that mere mortals do not know: " It's very obvious what must be going on is the parties are trying to find the best way to conclude the case against Uhuru without a trial and with as little noise as possible. The substitution of the judges is only a tip of the goings on (read struggles) both inside and outside--way outside even as far as New York and Nairobi."And there is no getting around a very simple fact: other judges in other cases at the ICC have asked to be replaced, and it has happened. There was never any indication that the cases were collapsing or near-collapsing. By all means, let's have Big Opinions expressed here. But let's try and back them with some facts---and " there's no denying" won't do. Give us at least the details of the "tip" of the "struggles" rather than just tell us that the "tip" is there, somewhere between Nairobi and New York. Otherwise, all there is something like a con or a Star article. Likewise, if we are invited to read "why Uhuru's ICC case won't stand", we expect facts and solid reasoning, not a lengthy article whose conclusion for the "why" is: " If Ruto walks free, Uhuru does as well on that basis alone. It’s just inconceivable that the ICC can convict the president after acquitting Ruto. It’s that simple." To say something can't happen because "it's just inconceivable" borders on superstition. It's more than just simple, as you put it; it is simple-minded as well. (Until Jukwaa has a resident witchdoctor, I propose that we stay away from superstition.) And another thing: you actually keep shifting positions, to fit changing circumstances, even as you maintain that "this is what I have been saying all along about these ICC cases". For example, in the recent Star article that gave rise to this thread, your reasoning is that what happens in Uhuru's case is very much dependent on what happens in Ruto's case. You then discuss Ruto's case before leaping inconceivably to Uhuru's case. Now, we are told that Uhuru's case won't stand because of all sorts of struggles whose tip is somewhere between New York and Nairobi. Uhuru's case, if it collapses, will collapse because of the huge problems that the OTP has with certain aspects of the case, and the OTP has told us exactly what those problems are. None of them have anything to do with the Ruto-Sang case.
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Post by podp on Feb 1, 2014 20:48:08 GMT 3
Gentlemen! There are two issues I always need to hear argued. Why cases collapse, and other reasons for acquittal. In our Kenya I always feel uneasy when people explain collapsing cases without the obvious. You lawyers, help me out here. 1. Has there been widespread, provable elimination of -ICC- witnesses in Kenya? 2. Has there been numerous disappearances of the same? Though the causes are debatable. 3. The competence of the investigation process: How defining or determining is a shoddy investigation? Especially when faced with good caliber lawyers. One thing I am ready to argue – comparatively looking at the forensic details availed from Bosnia Hercegovina during the trials of the ethnic kingpins there like Karadcic and Milosevic, is that Ocampo was technically a hoax. He really lacked in i nstruments to investigate, and his chosen methodology foolishly underestimated his brief, which was an attempt to decapitate a section of the Kenyan ruling class who owned the state apparatus. Even in Serbia of former Yugoslavia, it was only after Slobodan Milosevic had been uprooted by his own people, that he was wheeled off to the Hague. And General Mladic was effectively protected by commando units of the Serbian army for over ten years, before he was sold by a new generation of politicians facing a severe economic crisis. The EU handed Servia a total bail-out package in exchange, because Mladic at his peak, had overrun and arrested NATO soldiers and tied them to walls to prevent a NATO bombing campaign. It was very humiliating and hilarious actually. Maldic feeding juicy pawpaw to French soldiers bound to lamp-posts! And ordering a dutch major to drink with him and toast to Christian brotherhood! It was more theater than war! NATO swore revenge at any price. red high lights the case of being uprooted by own people is something that happens all the time. sometimes it is stage managed as the case of the ex President... Slobodan Milosevic who died on 11th March 2006 in Hague had the dubious distinction of being the only European Head of State (ex-president of Yugoslavia) to be charged with genocide and war crimes at the specially constituted International Criminal Tribunal at Hague. ‘From 1991 to 1999,’ says the Guardian in its obituary, ‘he presided over mayhem and mass murder in south-eastern Europe.’ ‘He left a legacy of more than 200,000 dead in Bosnia’ continues the Guardian, ‘and 2 million people (half the population) homeless. He ethnically cleansed more than 800,000 Albanians from their homes in Kosovo.’ The evil that men do is catalogued by the Guardian for the benefit of mankind ‘Milosevic was first indicted for war crimes in Kosovo by Louise Arbour, the Canadian chief prosecutor in The Hague, in March 1999. Arbour’s successor, the Swiss campaigner Carla Del Ponte, extended the charge sheet to include indictments on Croatia and Bosnia, in the latter case accusing him of genocide for his alleged collusion in the massacre of more than 7,000 Muslim males at Srebrenica in July 1995.’ blogcritics.org/slobodan-milosevic-and-the-tragedy-of/so our own indictees,now PORK and deputy PORK will celebrate as our neighbouring Sudan President does...for a while Milosevic inherited a tortured legacy of Yugoslavia, a nation torn by nationalistic forces and deepening economic crisis. To add to his tale of woes, he could not push through the economic reforms suggested by the IMF/World Bank as he encountered resistance from Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Macedonia. Even though Milosevic favoured the structural adjustment programmes initially he was forced to abandon it as it became increasingly clear that it would lead to mass unemployment. The political costs were untenable and soon his party was perceived by free market ideologues as being opposed to the reform process which meant that the socially owned assets would not be replaced by privately owned capital. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25923102Mr Karadzic, 68, faces 11 charges, including genocide relating to the Srebrenica massacre in July 1995. At Tuesday's hearing, his lawyer argued that Mr Mladic was "the one person in the whole world who knows best what happened in the war in Bosnia" and that Mr Karadzic was asking him to do his best to testify and to tell what had occurred. Ratko Mladic, 71, initially refused to take the oath, saying: "Your subpoenas, your platitudes, your false indictments, I do not care one bit about any of it." He added: "This is a satanic court, which is putting on trial us Serbs because we are defending our people from you."
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 21:34:14 GMT 3
3. The competence of the investigation process: How defining or determining is a shoddy investigation? Especially when faced with good caliber lawyers.
Good caliber lawyers, helped by presidential and other powers. Consider the following. In 2012, the OTP, as part of its investigation asked for some telephone records:
Kenyan phone companies: "Sorry, we don't keep those for more 3 years."
In 2013, Uhuru's defence team asked for phone records:
Kenyan phone companies: "Well, what do you know! We have them going as far back as 2007!"
And the telephone companies did not stop there. In addition to providing the Defense team with actual records, they also helpfully manufactured some for the Defence (as determined by the appointed "joint expert" for both teams). Naturally, after the phone companies' "belated" discovery, the OTP has renewed its requests; but it has also highlighted an obvious question: will they get genuine records, or will they get the product of "subcontractors" on River Road?
Much earlier ... the OTP asked for the minutes of NSAC meetings on certain days during the PEV.
GOK: "Sorry, no can provide. National security and other big things."
So, imagine the OTP's surprise when Muthaura, as part of the material provided for his defence in Confirmation hearings, included some of those same big, national-security minutes!
And so on, and so forth.
Shoddy investigations? I don't think so. Perhaps naïve in dealing with GoK? Possibly, given that this was about the Chief Mandarin (who knows where the bodies are buried) and the Prince (who is one of the Owners).
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Post by b6k on Feb 1, 2014 21:44:38 GMT 3
The judge's first request to be replaced was made in Aug 2013, and the second one was made in Oct 2013. What evidence can one cite to justify any claim that the cases were collapsing or near-collapsing then? [/quote] Whoa there Otishotish, methinks your moonlighting over at the Justice in Conflict blog is playing tricks with your mind! Allow me to jog your memory for you a tad. As early as May 29, 2013 yours truly started this thread on Jukwaa: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8466/uhuru-icc-case-collapse-prosecutorBeing our resident ICC aficionado (weren't you the witchdoctor with gourds & beads?), you dismissed Kaufman's analysis of the case against Uhuru by inferring that he simply intended to join the gravy train by making the right noises that camp Uhuru wanted to hear. Last I checked he has neither joined the Uhuru nor the Ruto defence teams. With hindsight, don't you think Kaufman was closer to the truth than you were then (or now fir that matter) with your gung-ho support of what now appears a moribund case? For the record, I even had an earlier thread about The ICC Cases Floundering. As much as you may like to re-write history, please don't come on Jukwaa with tripe that no one saw these cases for the farce that they were before December 2013. The ICC KE Situation has been dead in the water for a long time now, tick tock sound effects notwithstanding. Now over to you and your battle with Wanyee & Oyominto Omwenga...
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 22:01:08 GMT 3
Whoa there Otishotish, methinks your moonlighting over at the Justice in Conflict blog is playing tricks with your mind! Allow me to jog your memory for you a tad. As early as May 29, 2013 yours truly started this thread on Jukwaa: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8466/uhuru-icc-case-collapse-prosecutorBeing our resident ICC aficionado (weren't you the witchdoctor with gourds & beads?), you dismissed Kaufman's analysis of the case against Uhuru by inferring that he simply intended to join the gravy train by making the right noises that camp Uhuru wanted to hear. Last I checked he has neither joined the Uhuru nor the Ruto defence teams. With hindsight, don't you think Kaufman was closer to the truth than you were then (or now fir that matter) with your gung-ho support of what now appears a moribund case? For the record, I even had an earlier thread about The ICC Cases Floundering. As much as you may like to re-write history, please don't come on Jukwaa with tripe that no one saw these cases for the farce that they were before December 2013. The ICC KE Situation has been dead in the water for a long time now, tick tock sound effects notwithstanding. Now over to you and your battle with Wanyee & Oyominto Omwenga...
b6k:
Mwalimu and Kamale had already reported in. I was wondering where you were ...
Have there been people saying all along that the cases will collapse? Sure; even right here on Jukwaa. Nowhere have I stated anything to the contrary; so I don't see the basis of any claim that I am re-rewriting history. If what you want to state is that you made such a statement, then just go ahead and directly state so, and I will promptly give you your points.
If the cases collapse, will they be able to say that they were right? Absolutely. The problem I have had with such claims is not merely that they are made. It is that they are almost always accompanied by either sloppy reasoning or no reasoning at all. I generally prefer facts and solid reasoning to mere guesswork, even if the guesswork ultimately turns out to be correct.
That is why I have been dissecting Mr. Star's position ... as he puts it, the way one would dissect a rat. If you have any issues with the Dissection Report, then feel free to state them; otherwise, I don't see the relevance of your particular points. P.S. The gourd and beans (not beads!) provide only pointers to which facts are critical and what line of argument. Once we have those we endeavor to supply them, along with the prediction and with proper acknowledgement of the inspiration. We don't just say that "the gourd+beans say it's inconceivable" or that "the gourd+beans say the tip is here or there". In other words, there's a difference between scientific witchdoctoring and blind superstition.
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Post by b6k on Feb 1, 2014 22:31:11 GMT 3
Pardon me, Otishotish. I suppose I misunderstood the part where you were saying there was no evidence the case was doomed in August 2013, yet clearly there was enough evidence in May for Kaufman to say what he did then.
The ICC situation has been an interesting case study for the law of unintended consequences. We have gone from doom & gloom "choices have consequences" lectures at the pre-election stage to "essential contact" only diplomacy at the post-election stage. Now we are fully at the stage where good ol' Barry invites Uhuru with 47 other African heads of state for a barbeque at the Whitehouse...as long as Mugabe & Al-Bashir don't tag along. So much for the pariah state prophecies. If those are the consequences we were warned about, don't expect the "owners" of KE to kowtow to the west anyday soon...
Dissect the rat by all means. Just keep it real.
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Post by b6k on Feb 1, 2014 22:40:40 GMT 3
P.S. The gourd and beans (not beads!) provide only pointers to which facts are critical and what line of argument. Once we have those we endeavor to supply them, along with the prediction and with proper acknowledgement of the inspiration. We don't just say that "the gourd+beans say it's inconceivable" or that "the gourd+beans say the tip is here or there". In other words, there's a difference between scientific witchdoctoring and blind superstition. Copy that, on the gourd & beans. Let's keep in mind that even your favourite weather forecaster claims to have some scientific background yet they rarely give an accurate prediction that's little better than chance. In short, don't put too much hope in ANY outcome, one way or the other. You'll be less disappointed in life...
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Post by Omwenga on Feb 1, 2014 22:43:55 GMT 3
The judge's first request to be replaced was made in Aug 2013, and the second one was made in Oct 2013. What evidence can one cite to justify any claim that the cases were collapsing or near-collapsing then Whoa there Otishotish, methinks your moonlighting over at the Justice in Conflict blog is playing tricks with your mind! Allow me to jog your memory for you a tad. As early as May 29, 2013 yours truly started this thread on Jukwaa: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8466/uhuru-icc-case-collapse-prosecutorBeing our resident ICC aficionado (weren't you the witchdoctor with gourds & beads?), you dismissed Kaufman's analysis of the case against Uhuru by inferring that he simply intended to join the gravy train by making the right noises that camp Uhuru wanted to hear. Last I checked he has neither joined the Uhuru nor the Ruto defence teams. With hindsight, don't you think Kaufman was closer to the truth than you were then (or now fir that matter) with your gung-ho support of what now appears a moribund case? For the record, I even had an earlier thread about The ICC Cases Floundering. As much as you may like to re-write history, please don't come on Jukwaa with tripe that no one saw these cases for the farce that they were before December 2013. The ICC KE Situation has been dead in the water for a long time now, tick tock sound effects notwithstanding. Now over to you and your battle with Wanyee & Oyominto Omwenga... b6k,I am often amazed and at times simply amused at how in efforts to be cute intellectually, one actually ends up saying something that's simply dumb, contradictory, misplaced or simply stupid, especially when subjected to any level of analysis. A good example is this witchcraft and superstition nonsense raised in a one sided intellectual discourse, what you say about the witchdoctor with guard and beads is so comically right even as it points out all these inherent deficiencies in the logic behind the misplaced assertion there's nothing more to add to it besides laughing some more.
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Post by Omwenga on Feb 1, 2014 22:58:46 GMT 3
Meanwhile, 61% of Kenyans Want ICC Cases DroppedPublic opinion leaders on the side of terminating the cases including yours truly take credit for this as well as good efforts by Ambassador Amina and team making the case the right thing to do at this juncture of these cases is to simply do away with them and locally find other solutions for the PEV victims. Interestingly, the latter argument (finding a local solution) may soon lose luster as the cases collapse on other grounds.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 23:15:44 GMT 3
A good example is this witchcraft and superstition nonsense raised in a one sided intellectual discourse, what you say about the witchdoctor with guard and beads is so comically right even as it points out all these inherent deficiencies in the logic behind the misplaced assertion there's nothing more to add to it besides laughing some more. Omwenga: I have clearly pointed out the issues I have with your statements and shifting positions. A good response would be to clearly indicate where I am wrong or where you have problems with my reasoning. As I have indicated, even when referring to gourds and beans, I have generally given facts and reasons. If there are "deficiencies in the logic" in how I have tackled your fly-by-night stuff, then weka them hapa hapa, so that we can all see them and I can respond to the claims. And try to do better than "it's inconceivable" and "there's no denying". This is not The Star.
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Post by OtishOtish on Feb 1, 2014 23:34:00 GMT 3
Pardon me, Otishotish. I suppose I misunderstood the part where you were saying there was no evidence the case was doomed in August 2013, yet clearly there was enough evidence in May for Kaufman to say what he did then. Until your entry, my statements on this thread were specific and limited---to what Hero Omwenga had to say. In particular, his claim that Oga Chief-Oh's request to be taken off the case is because "there is no denying" that it's because the case is collapsing. Against that I pointed out that: (a) ICC judges in other cases have asked to be replaced and it has happened. Why should it be that in this case "there is no denying" that it must be because the case is collapsing? That is a clear question that Omwenga could answer, if he has an answer. (b) Any answer to the question in (a) should take into account (i) when Oga Chief-Oh made his requests and (ii) his various statements in favour of the cases going on. (Let's save Kaufman for later, as it will be a distraction; but the problem I had with his statement was as I have stated above: I saw no reason to believe that it was anything but guesswork. We can dissect his statement after we finish with The Local Hero.) My views (which should be somewhere in the archives) going back to 2012, were that "pariah state", "economic sanctions", etc. would not happen. In any case, there is an "out" for the True Believers, because "essential contacts" have always been OK.
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