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Post by b6k on Jun 21, 2014 9:13:00 GMT 3
While Baba was away. Very intriguing indeed...
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jun 21, 2014 12:39:08 GMT 3
With all due respect, Vasco, that is balderdash. Have you been following the proceedings in the National Assembly and the various County Assemblies over the last TWELVE months???!!These are the esteemed ladies and gentlemen who among other things, wanted to abolish the Senate, do away with Women Representatives, lock away gays and lesbians- that is when they were not pontificating on who should fly a Kenyan flag on their gas guzzlers. Check some of these links: These moves go squarely against their public oaths to PROTECT and DEFEND the 2010 Constitution. I expect posters on this forum to respect the INTELLIGENCE of Jukwaa members. We are NOT Nipate, Kenyan Post or Nairobi Exposed. Onyango Oloo Jukwaa Administrator
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Post by vascodagama on Jun 22, 2014 20:38:01 GMT 3
Thanks Onyango Oloo for promoting democracy here but, may I say that the Kenyan National and County Assemblies represent the true nature of the Kenyan people, elected by Kenyans. Even in Europe where I live, legislators make silly legislations, some of which are self serving. And unlike many Kenyans, I have had the privilege of working with and inside many governments, including our own, and can authoritatively state that there is no country free of the types of corruption witnessed in Kenya.
I would like someone to prove to me that there is any developed country that spends the same proportion of its national income on salaries and benefits for its legislators (national and county) as we spend in Kenya. There is, therefore, a possibility that those who think that the Senate is necessary are wrong, just like the civil society was dead wrong when they were castigating former president Moi when he initiated a program to expand access to public universities in Kenya in the late 80's / early 90's. Do you recall the noise that the old man had to endure?
After witnessing the horrors of genocide in Rwanda in 1994, I know the kind of things that can trigger killings of historic proportions in Kenya. We, as learned people, have a duty to correct any misinformation to preserve peaceful coexistence among Kenyans.
Lastly, Kenyans lost the opportunity to enjoy the diversity of our tribes when we buried our heads in the sand and assumed (like Iraqi's have assumed)democracy is only all about the number of voters. Had we given thought to the idea of rotating leadership among tribes / regions when the constitution was under review, we would not be in a position where we are now. See, this reminds me of a man who divorces his wife, then remarries, only to find that the previous wife was better and then divorces again just because he believed they couldn't iron his trouser properly.
To me Muigai and his team are great for Kenya, they mean well for Kenya and given space and time can transform the country very positively in a relatively short time. The sceptics are like the man who married many times... so if as 'they say' some tribes are feeling disfranchised, why are they not calling for rotating presidency?
Africa is diverse, made of tribes - some big while others are small. And Just like in Iraq where the Shia majority can win elections year after year in any democratic election against the Sunni, the solution to their marital problem will be in rotating the leadership of the country and not in a 'cut and paste' form of democracy that ignores the peculiar nature of our diversity. In other words, the divorced man must come to the realization that it his duty to iron the trouser!
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Post by b6k on Jun 23, 2014 8:00:34 GMT 3
Vascodagama I have to agree with you here. Not everyone who looks at proceedings at the National Assembly or MCA's will come to the same conclusions as OO, just like not all witnesses to a mugging can report the same thing. There is a reason why Jukwaa is referred to as Pyongyang in other circles and OO has just shown why.
The rotational presidency is something Jakaswanga and I have ruminated on in the past. It would definitely be a much better solution than the current winner takes all system. The Swiss model is not too bad. The problem with having 42 or so tribes is the next fight would be about who would get to be president first and who in their right mind would volunteer to go last...
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jun 23, 2014 14:45:48 GMT 3
I find it HYPOCRITICAL in the extreme to see some of the MOST prolific posters on Jukwaa turn around and accuse the Administrator of stifling democracy on this forum.
b6k:
Since you use an alias here, how I am to tell that YOU are NOT one of those cowardly imbeciles who hide behind disposable handles to refer to Jukwaa as "Pyongyang" on other online discussion lists?
Onyango Oloo
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Post by b6k on Jun 23, 2014 21:34:37 GMT 3
I find it HYPOCRITICAL in the extreme to see some of the MOST prolific posters on Jukwaa turn around and accuse the Administrator of stifling democracy on this forum. b6k:Since you use an alias here, how I am to tell that YOU are NOT one of those cowardly imbeciles who hide behind disposable handles to refer to Jukwaa as "Pyongyang" on other online discussion lists?Onyango OlooAs Vascodagama is a relatively new member on Jukwaa I take it this response is aimed at yours truly. So let's take it from the top. Just because you begin your first response to Vascodagama using the phrase "with all due respect", following your diplomatic preamble with the charge that " this is balder dash" (sic) shows you meant to show no respect at all. Here's why: balderdash[ bawl-der-dash ] noun 1. senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense. Such a blanket dismissal of a well thought out piece from any other Jukwaaist would be tolerable. However, coming from the Administrator it takes on a very different tone as it smacks of intolerance for an alternative view. You may call Mike Leama's article a lot of things but balderdash is not one of them. As much as you enjoy the limelight and post as OO, I prefer anonymity and my good old alias. Show me any other forum where you have seen the missives of B6k, other than Jukwaa and the late Kumekucha and I will sue the pseudo sniper for copyright infringement...
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jun 24, 2014 11:11:34 GMT 3
b6k:
Apart from participating in Jukwaa, I visit other places in blogosphere, the Twitter demi-monde, Facebook and other places.
My response to Vasco da Gama was equally well thought out because what Vasco said here is a loud echo of the din I hear in other cacophonous spaces.
Politicking is defined us:
When Vasco RECYCLED on Jukwaa a comment that averred that "politicking had stopped" when Raila Odinga was away in the USA for three months was Vasco being literal, factual, mischievous or disingenuous?
Had Kenyan politicians of ALL STRIPES AND PERSUASIONS stopped with activities undertaken for political reasons or ends and only resumed such with the arrival of the former Prime Minister?
I hope you can see my raison d'être for calling those comments "BALDERDASH" MEANING, like you said,"senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense".
I affirm, reiterate and stand by those comments.
And on the question of handles I still insist, that THERE IS NO WAY I CAN PROVE THAT YOU HAVE NOT, USING ANOTHER HANDLE ON ANOTHER FORUM, participated in the heckling of, and mud slinging at, yours truly.
I am sure you, b6k, also extend to Onyango Oloo the same freedom of speech and expression that you claim is in short supply here on Jukwaa.
I look forward to your caustic rejoinder.
Onyango Oloo
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Post by b6k on Jun 24, 2014 14:33:03 GMT 3
b6k:My response to Vasco da Gama was equally well thought out because what Vasco said here is a loud echo of the din I hear in other cacophonous spaces. Politicking is defined us: When Vasco RECYCLED on Jukwaa a comment that averred that "politicking had stopped" when Raila Odinga was away in the USA for three months was Vasco being literal, factual, mischievous or disingenuous?Had Kenyan politicians of ALL STRIPES AND PERSUASIONS stopped with activities undertaken for political reasons or ends and only resumed such with the arrival of the former Prime Minister? I hope you can see my raison d'être for calling those comments "BALDERDASH" MEANING, like you said, "senseless, stupid, or exaggerated talk or writing; nonsense". I affirm, reiterate and stand by those comments. Actually OO, if you read Vascodagama's thread title as well as the link he provided the author is talking about RECKLESS politicking. I hope you can spot the difference as no one ever mentioned politicking coming to an end while Baba was away. As for handles, there can only be one B6k & I don't do anonymous attacks (sans handle, that is)....
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Post by vascodagama on Jun 25, 2014 0:32:33 GMT 3
Am I surprised by the thoughtless attack on me? -absolutely not. But I must leave it to Jukwaa community to make their judgement...
There is no recycled material, and indeed 'reckless politicking had stopped ....'. Read through the links provided above, word by word.
As a social democrat, you must listen to dissenting views as well as views which you agree with. As an administrator of a public forum, you could choose to employ a Nyayo rungu to silence opposing opinion here.
The call is all yours.
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Post by kamalet on Jun 25, 2014 22:54:37 GMT 3
What Vasco Da Gama perhaps sees as reckless politicking may be viewed as very mature politicking. Unfortunately, those of 'mlengo wa CORD' like Oloo will see nothing wrong in a politician calling for a revolution quite contrary to the process provided for in the constitution. That is the thin line Oloo will not see and you really must excuse him and his ilk. Documents like the constitution mean only something when they can be twisted to fit into a narrow view. The bill of rights is read by these people the way some evangelists read the bible!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Jun 26, 2014 14:52:33 GMT 3
I am glad I have contributed to, and promoted, what in the context of Jukwaa, amounts to community dialogue-one of the objectives of this forum
OO
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Post by vascodagama on Jun 30, 2014 1:38:22 GMT 3
See how the boys in the west manage their differences: How about US speaker Boehner planning to file suit against Obama over alleged abuse of executive power.
He hasn't declared a national holiday
He hasn't asked Americans to stop working or engage in mass action
He carried himself with civility, not militancy.
Can you spot the difference?
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Post by jakaswanga on Jun 30, 2014 20:09:28 GMT 3
See how the boys in the west manage their differences: How about US speaker Boehner planning to file suit against Obama over alleged abuse of executive power. He hasn't declared a national holiday He hasn't asked Americans to stop working or engage in mass action He carried himself with civility, not militancy. Can you spot the difference? Is this the Washington where a prosecutor called Star or something like that was hired to inquisitor a Miss Lewinsky over the president's dick, as the republican vowed to impeach him? and is this the Washington where Obama's birth certificate was an issue, with some claiming Hawai, or was it Haiti, isn't exactly the USA when one is born there and is becoming president! You know what they were doing when the federal government nearly shut down on an issue called the ''fiscal cliff''? Washington! the city of filibusters!? gimme a break!
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Post by vascodagama on Jul 1, 2014 0:31:28 GMT 3
Jakaswaga, if I should rephrase my words, I meant that 'cut and paste' democracy is not sustainable democracy. Democracy has to be tailored to suit the peculiar circumstances of a nation and its people, its culture and economy. Real democracy is not cast on stone.
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Post by vascodagama on Jul 1, 2014 0:47:52 GMT 3
I am glad I have contributed to, and promoted, what in the context of Jukwaa, amounts to community dialogue-one of the objectives of this forum OOThanks for not opting for the Nyayo rungu. You could have chosen to employ the rungu in more than one way, including by influencing which posts appear at the top of the home page. But that would have been viewed as corruption. This forum is different; it does not condone such practice. Congrats.
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Post by ebarasi on Jul 1, 2014 2:51:12 GMT 3
Jakaswaga, if I should rephrase my words, I meant that 'cut and paste' democracy is not sustainable democracy. Democracy has to be tailored to suit the peculiar circumstances of a nation and its people, its culture and economy. Real democracy is not cast on stone. Vascodagama, What is this cut and paste democracy you talk about? What was the BOMAS process about? And the Kenyan constitutional referendum of 2010? Who is cutting and pasting democracy in Kenya? And who is this tailor that you want to tailor Democracy to "peculiar circumstances"?, and while at it why not delineate for us what these peculiar circumstances are? If you think that Kenya is historyless, then there is nothing to build on. However, our forefathers had their stories and rites from yore that they passed on to future generations. The general agreement within communities to live after rules that were broadly internally accepted, practice certain rites, and punish after some due process required a sophisticated discourse - Dialogue- followed by consensus. The struggle to break the chains of colonialism, the struggle against the excesses of the Kenyatta and Moi regimes, the struggles to acquire influence over how our taxes are spent, the struggle for equitable inclusion at the national common table, and many other struggles, inform the way Kenyans relate to power, the world, and how we presently relate or would like to relate to each other. By extension, how they would like to live, govern and be governed. How that translates into a "cut and paste" process reamins a puzzle to me? However, I fully agree with you that Real democracy is not cast in stone. It is organic. It springs from experiences in our past and bears our aspirations for the future. In short, it can grow or diminish, it can be nurtured by love or neutered by distrust and hate, and it then becomes a living organism that is under evolutionary pressure - Survive or Perish. The environment/people are the final determinants of that.
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Post by merkeju on Jul 1, 2014 4:04:49 GMT 3
JUBILEE ALMOST IMPLODED WITHOUT RAILA
When Raila Odinga was away in America, the news media had nothing to report about, they were scratching here and there looking for saleable news, and that is where JUBILEE infighting became the main source of news. This made some TNA politicians from even asking in parliament about Raila’s absence, they knew anytime Raila was mentioned it became a diversionary tactics, trying to use Raila’s name to dodge the heat that was brewing within the JUBILEE coalition.
The media became obsessed with the wrangles within JUBILEE and this was bad news to those in power, Alfred Keter was giving Uhuru Kenyatta and Ruto hard time, if it was not the Railway project, it was those who fixed Ruto in ICC and finally the removal of Rugut from NYS. The Kalenjin nation were starting to realize they were being shortchanged, with William Ruto coming out in support of Rugut’s removal and Duale’s comments of “BUBU” that was perceived by the Rift Valley leaders as abusive did not help to cool things down. When he started Alfred Keter was alone but as time went by more and more Rift Valley leaders joined him, that is why Linturi brought the motion to remove Waiguru, the motion was brought to save the coalition because the issue of removing a Kalenjin and putting a Kikuyu was seen as the most arrogantly thing TNA could have done, with the salt added the picture of the president swearing in the new boss was posted.
It is not a surprise that the Governor of Uasin Gishu who is one of Ruto’s sycophants in Rift Valley purported to cancel the CORD rally sitting insecurity, but that was just a cover because people in Rift Valley are realizing that they were duped and reality is sinking, Ruto rode on lies that Raila was the problem, that he fixed him in ICC but now the truth is coming out. The number that showed up in 64 stadium in Eldoret and the one in Ntulele in Narok has send a message to leaders in those areas that they are out of touch with reality.
Raila has help JUBILEE government in diverting their internal problems, now the look united but the problem will not go away soon, Ruto’s popularity in Rift Valley is slowing chipping away. Raila’s silence is doom for TNA/URP marriage.
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 1, 2014 20:02:12 GMT 3
LENKU: ''Opposition trying to give Al-Shabaab some energy, to show there is a problem of insecurity!''
Talk about reckless politicking! Even his audience is shocked! Is Ole lenku an innocent, childish fool, or a sinister tabloid creature, pure poison?
CHECK this response:
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Post by jakaswanga on Jul 1, 2014 20:10:50 GMT 3
Jakaswaga, if I should rephrase my words, I meant that 'cut and paste' democracy is not sustainable democracy. Democracy has to be tailored to suit the peculiar circumstances of a nation and its people, its culture and economy. Real democracy is not cast on stone. Cut and paste democracy! ehe he he! Do you mean outright copying of ''things'' from elsewhere and trying to put them in practice in a different environment!? ---then I get your point. But ponder this: this new constitution we promulgated in 2010! (now the remnants of it)! would you not say there was a lot of ''CUT AND PASTE'' work that went into it ... and perhaps that is why it is proving so unworkable .. AT THE START! ---who knows, may be it is like a bike, nobody is born capable of cycling, but once you learn the ride! you never forget and it is easy!
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Post by vascodagama on Jul 1, 2014 23:11:09 GMT 3
Jakaswaga, if I should rephrase my words, I meant that 'cut and paste' democracy is not sustainable democracy. Democracy has to be tailored to suit the peculiar circumstances of a nation and its people, its culture and economy. Real democracy is not cast on stone. Vascodagama, What is this cut and paste democracy you talk about? What was the BOMAS process about? And the Kenyan constitutional referendum of 2010? Who is cutting and pasting democracy in Kenya? And who is this tailor that you want to tailor Democracy to "peculiar circumstances"?, and while at it why not delineate for us what these peculiar circumstances are? If you think that Kenya is historyless, then there is nothing to build on. However, our forefathers had their stories and rites from yore that they passed on to future generations. The general agreement within communities to live after rules that were broadly internally accepted, practice certain rites, and punish after some due process required a sophisticated discourse - Dialogue- followed by consensus. The struggle to break the chains of colonialism, the struggle against the excesses of the Kenyatta and Moi regimes, the struggles to acquire influence over how our taxes are spent, the struggle for equitable inclusion at the national common table, and many other struggles, inform the way Kenyans relate to power, the world, and how we presently relate or would like to relate to each other. By extension, how they would like to live, govern and be governed. How that translates into a "cut and paste" process reamins a puzzle to me? However, I fully agree with you that Real democracy is not cast in stone. It is organic. It springs from experiences in our past and bears our aspirations for the future. In short, it can grow or diminish, it can be nurtured by love or neutered by distrust and hate, and it then becomes a living organism that is under evolutionary pressure - Survive or Perish. The environment/people are the final determinants of that. Ebarasi, you are trying to kill a pig by overfeeding it! See, assuming you have a bunch of corrupt MPs in a political structure, some really greedy ones, and you imagine that the only way of expanding representation is by increasing the number of MPs, then you are not taking account of the peculiar circumstances in your country. When you go ahead and add even more Senators and MCAs, then haven't you just promoted corruption? MCAs demnd the same salary and benefits as MPs; so who is with the 'people'? All these politicians are a sample representative of what Kenyans are. So, whatever we may not like in them, the only and best way to change it must begin with the realization that we are the problem, not them. The alternative is to bring in some foreigners to 'represent us' or more practically, to reduce the representatives to a mare minimum.
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Post by vascodagama on Jul 1, 2014 23:34:14 GMT 3
JUBILEE ALMOST IMPLODED WITHOUT RAILA
When Raila Odinga was away in America, the news media had nothing to report about, they were scratching here and there looking for saleable news, and that is where JUBILEE infighting became the main source of news. This made some TNA politicians from even asking in parliament about Raila’s absence, they knew anytime Raila was mentioned it became a diversionary tactics, trying to use Raila’s name to dodge the heat that was brewing within the JUBILEE coalition.
The media became obsessed with the wrangles within JUBILEE and this was bad news to those in power, Alfred Keter was giving Uhuru Kenyatta and Ruto hard time, if it was not the Railway project, it was those who fixed Ruto in ICC and finally the removal of Rugut from NYS. The Kalenjin nation were starting to realize they were being shortchanged, with William Ruto coming out in support of Rugut’s removal and Duale’s comments of “BUBU” that was perceived by the Rift Valley leaders as abusive did not help to cool things down. When he started Alfred Keter was alone but as time went by more and more Rift Valley leaders joined him, that is why Linturi brought the motion to remove Waiguru, the motion was brought to save the coalition because the issue of removing a Kalenjin and putting a Kikuyu was seen as the most arrogantly thing TNA could have done, with the salt added the picture of the president swearing in the new boss was posted.
It is not a surprise that the Governor of Uasin Gishu who is one of Ruto’s sycophants in Rift Valley purported to cancel the CORD rally sitting insecurity, but that was just a cover because people in Rift Valley are realizing that they were duped and reality is sinking, Ruto rode on lies that Raila was the problem, that he fixed him in ICC but now the truth is coming out. The number that showed up in 64 stadium in Eldoret and the one in Ntulele in Narok has send a message to leaders in those areas that they are out of touch with reality.
Raila has help JUBILEE government in diverting their internal problems, now the look united but the problem will not go away soon, Ruto’s popularity in Rift Valley is slowing chipping away. Raila’s silence is doom for TNA/URP marriage.
Markeju, you are attempting to crush a mosquito by striking its shadow here. Why are those people who are complaining about service delivery not directing their anger towards the Governors rather that towards Uhurutto? Keter, dialogue, sasa saba etc is all about 'striking at the shadow' - see what is going on in Machakos as the others beat about the bush?
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Post by vascodagama on Jul 27, 2015 20:56:42 GMT 3
So, what has changed in a year since that publication? Many things.....,
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Post by vascodagama on Sept 16, 2015 23:14:38 GMT 3
Vascodagama I have to agree with you here. Not everyone who looks at proceedings at the National Assembly or MCA's will come to the same conclusions as OO, just like not all witnesses to a mugging can report the same thing. There is a reason why Jukwaa is referred to as Pyongyang in other circles and OO has just shown why. The rotational presidency is something Jakaswanga and I have ruminated on in the past. It would definitely be a much better solution than the current winner takes all system. The Swiss model is not too bad. The problem with having 42 or so tribes is the next fight would be about who would get to be president first and who in their right mind would volunteer to go last...
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Post by vascodagama on Dec 10, 2015 12:55:51 GMT 3
From the Daily Nation, Thursday, December 10, 2015:
The leaders snubbed Cord leader Raila Odinga’s tour in Mandera. Mr Odinga travelled to Mandera on Wednesday to visit the family of Isnina Musa Sheikh whose body was found in a shallow grave on Sunday.
..........
On Wednesday, Interior Cabinet Secretary Joseph Nkaissery said the woman had been a cook for the Al-Shabaab in Somalia.
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Post by vascodagama on Jan 30, 2016 12:45:44 GMT 3
Treasury maintains no single cent accrued from Eurobond was lost link
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