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Post by mwalimumkuu on Dec 5, 2014 16:18:22 GMT 3
News just in: The International Criminal Court at the Hague has dropped charges against President Kenyatta for lack of evidence. More to follow
~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~
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jpl
New Member
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Post by jpl on Dec 5, 2014 18:26:58 GMT 3
Are you sure about this..my Bead,Beans,Gourd,Monkey Skin,Spear and Shield do not agree...
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Post by mzalendo on Dec 5, 2014 20:09:31 GMT 3
Bad news for Kenya, Bad news for Post election victims.
So those prayer meetings at the Hague have paid off,The Sonko's theatrics at the Hague have paid off. This is going to hurt so much the credibility of the court.
An embarrassment to the OTP.Ocampo should carry the blame, He should have been around to wipe this rotten egg from the face of the OTP.What a shame.
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jpl
New Member
Posts: 31
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Post by jpl on Dec 5, 2014 20:21:35 GMT 3
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Post by jakaswanga on Dec 5, 2014 21:02:53 GMT 3
On MARCH 20 2014, I told myself thus NB: The report on the daily nation linked by b6k earlier today mentions the Iringo/Kimemia theft spree at a tune of ksh 2.8 bn. That is a wrong figure, try ksh. 8.3 bn for sooth.
But Ouru Kenyatta can not, for all exhortations to patriotism and loving Kenya, turn around and DIRECT the head of prosecutions and CID to arrest the Kimemia-Iringo duo. I mean, how does he and his coterie of upstart 8-4-4 courtiers imagine his ICC case was done in? –-Kimemia, he was there when the s/o Jomo needed him most; and he rewarded himself handsomely off Wanjiku's purse. Or some of you thought it is the whiteman QC Kay who did the heavy lifting? Nope, triggers had to be pulled, assassins had to be paid, and Kimemia, he had the guts to even the score.
Ouru Kenyatta better know the way the chips fall, and the cookie can crumble, this day that Ocampo/Bensouda has been conquered by the mirthless steel of John Michuki. Puppets must know their place and watch their fates.
Essentially we, as a nation, are back to square one with this 'acquital'. We have to construct a fictitious narrative about a disorganised, unorchestrated violence, a spontaneous explosion. The victims of PEV, therefore, can not lay any claim to structured compensations. (If Ruto is found guilty, I think something shall give which will shock us even more!)
Given the current political situation, I do not think we can face the truth of PEV --nor of anything else for that matter (eg TJRC and its KipLAGAT report, nor Ndung'u land report, nor the Kroll financial audit!) what remains is therefore FICTION AND MORE FICTION to try fill the vacuum of dormant facts. That is a perfect picture of social rot --the denial of reality, and somewhere down the line the correction must of course come. Illusions must crash sooner than later, and we can not run away from ourselves as a nation for that long.
Kenyatta = Innocent, Ruto = Innocent. (Oh? a dropped, non prosecutable case does not mean one is innocent? then the court has no option but to return a verdict of not guilty on William Ruto. Otherwise....)
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Post by b6k on Dec 5, 2014 22:53:32 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, Kenyatta = Innocent, Ruto = Innocent? No! 1 + 1 > 2....
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dineo
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by dineo on Dec 5, 2014 23:53:45 GMT 3
I wonder what Hassan Omar is thinking?
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Post by podp on Dec 6, 2014 9:09:53 GMT 3
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Post by kamalet on Dec 7, 2014 15:43:18 GMT 3
Having been moving up and down our troubled continent, I have finally looked at the notice of withdrawal by madam Bensouda. If compared with the withdrawal notice of the Muthaura case, once cannot help feel a tinge of hurt in the poor woman. In the Muthaura case she still blamed her inability to prosecute to missing witnesses, recanting witnesses and an unco-operative government. Reading the Kenyatta case withdrawal, she laments the same reasons for being forced to withdraw the charges. Perhaps the only difference between the two notices, is the rider in the Kenyatta one that it is without prejudice to the prosecutor's option to institute the charges again when new evidence becomes available.
I find that quite speculative and perhaps the prosecution statement at the last status conference that the case be adjourned until Uhuru stopped being in power is sufficiently telling. Someone suggested that the withdrawal with this condition only served to getting a middle ground exit for the prosecutor who should never have brought the cases as they were.
The most surprising thing is that Bensouda has not seized the opportunity in the Kenya cases to demonstrate that her ICC department would review and change its ways to ensure that when charges are brought to court they are properly investigated and the witness procurement system cleaned out. The people who died in Naivasha will not get justice for the simple reason the prosecution made the mistakes that led to the total collapse of the "PNU" case at the ICC. The "ODM" side of the case proceeds but in a manner that shows a trail of liars for witnesses and a badly prepared prosecution case. There runs a great fear that the victims of Kiambaa might also not get justice if the court system was true to itself purely based on the evidence before it.
That is how sad this withdrawal in that the prosecution does not seek to redeem itself for the injustice it brings to victims but prefers to hide behind excuses of its own failures.
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Post by jakaswanga on Dec 7, 2014 17:08:22 GMT 3
Having been moving up and down our troubled continent, I have finally looked at the notice of withdrawal by madam Bensouda. If compared with the withdrawal notice of the Muthaura case, once cannot help feel a tinge of hurt in the poor woman. In the Muthaura case she still blamed her inability to prosecute to missing witnesses, recanting witnesses and an unco-operative government. Reading the Kenyatta case withdrawal, she laments the same reasons for being forced to withdraw the charges. Perhaps the only difference between the two notices, is the rider in the Kenyatta one that it is without prejudice to the prosecutor's option to institute the charges again when new evidence becomes available.
I find that quite speculative and perhaps the prosecution statement at the last status conference that the case be adjourned until Uhuru stopped being in power is sufficiently telling. Someone suggested that the withdrawal with this condition only served to getting a middle ground exit for the prosecutor who should never have brought the cases as they were.
The most surprising thing is that Bensouda has not seized the opportunity in the Kenya cases to demonstrate that her ICC department would review and change its ways to ensure that when charges are brought to court they are properly investigated and the witness procurement system cleaned out. The people who died in Naivasha will not get justice for the simple reason the prosecution made the mistakes that led to the total collapse of the "PNU" case at the ICC. The "ODM" side of the case proceeds but in a manner that shows a trail of liars for witnesses and a badly prepared prosecution case. There runs a great fear that the victims of Kiambaa might also not get justice if the court system was true to itself purely based on the evidence before it.
That is how sad this withdrawal in that the prosecution does not seek to redeem itself for the injustice it brings to victims but prefers to hide behind excuses of its own failures. Personally, for some private reasons, mostly to do with actual experience of the the so-called international community, I never invest my emotions in such things as the ICC as carriers of justice. But I accept such expensive shows are necessary stand-up comedy's, or bouts of farce, to try and pacify emotions which otherwise would fester and search for their own eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth Humurabbi takes on justice. If 'justice' coincides with the interests of some super-power, of course the culprit, even if a head of state –-a Muthamaki or King of Kings like Gadhafi, or a washed-up ex head of state like Slobodan Milosevic, will be stitched up and hanged in no time! And there will always be a section of natives howling with pleasure, like hounds at a juicy bone. Well, Uhuru Kenyatta has firmly pledged his loyalty and carefully steered off a public discourse featuring the l ook-east madness of his predecessor. And here is his reward. If he did not blink and profess tail-swinging love to New Rome, the Yankees who run a fine-comb information gathering system (as their eavesdropping of Merkel of Germany and Hollande of France shows) would definitely have helped the incompetent ICC duo of Bensouda and Ocampo out. NB: In Metadata analysis, the NSA records ''media'' of any who is who in the world. Politics or finance. Plus suspected terrorists of course. But here was the American Stanley Collymore at Safaricom claiming that company has no records of any phone calls of any Kenyan in any period! No, if we Kenyans want justice, lets shape our own courts and system to deliver it to us and our fellows. All that money and process to revise our judicial system and inSTALL the super-stud Mutunga as CJ, and then we all invest our hopes in that sh!t house called the ICC in far away Holland!? Come on! Let us get to work and do a 'Birgen' on our Judiciary and police apparatus! NB: Anybody out there who remembers who Birgen was? (while he lasted!) Kamalet: the test now is the level of scorch-earth drive Uhuru Kenyatta will bring to bear, to have William Ruto free. That is the elephant in the room now. Bensouda can now go get more Fat-ou on dutch cheese and other Benelux delicacies like, if I remember correctly from my days in Brussels, frita belgica with mayo and pinda-sate! And '' uitsmijter!'' with a conc glass of ''drop-shot'' (Yenever)! hmmm! |
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Dec 8, 2014 0:00:06 GMT 3
Having been moving up and down our troubled continent, I have finally looked at the notice of withdrawal by madam Bensouda. If compared with the withdrawal notice of the Muthaura case, once cannot help feel a tinge of hurt in the poor woman. In the Muthaura case she still blamed her inability to prosecute to missing witnesses, recanting witnesses and an unco-operative government. Reading the Kenyatta case withdrawal, she laments the same reasons for being forced to withdraw the charges. Perhaps the only difference between the two notices, is the rider in the Kenyatta one that it is without prejudice to the prosecutor's option to institute the charges again when new evidence becomes available. I find that quite speculative and perhaps the prosecution statement at the last status conference that the case be adjourned until Uhuru stopped being in power is sufficiently telling. Someone suggested that the withdrawal with this condition only served to getting a middle ground exit for the prosecutor who should never have brought the cases as they were. The most surprising thing is that Bensouda has not seized the opportunity in the Kenya cases to demonstrate that her ICC department would review and change its ways to ensure that when charges are brought to court they are properly investigated and the witness procurement system cleaned out. The people who died in Naivasha will not get justice for the simple reason the prosecution made the mistakes that led to the total collapse of the "PNU" case at the ICC. The "ODM" side of the case proceeds but in a manner that shows a trail of liars for witnesses and a badly prepared prosecution case. There runs a great fear that the victims of Kiambaa might also not get justice if the court system was true to itself purely based on the evidence before it. That is how sad this withdrawal in that the prosecution does not seek to redeem itself for the injustice it brings to victims but prefers to hide behind excuses of its own failures. Very well argue. Yes, Bensouda and Ocampo before her have taken a whacking in these cases, and rightly so. Many of us here and elsewhere argued fervently from the beginning that, these cases ought not to have at the ICC. The crew that disappeared from Jukwaa and later vanished into the thin cyber air lectured us here day and night through long-winded essays on how the amigos before ICC were as guilty as charged. Well, several years down the line, ICC has become to the common mwananchi in Kenya what many of us thought it was long time ago, a kangaroo court! Even as we continue to flog Bensouda, questions should also be asked of the quality of judges at the ICC especially those who presided over the cases at the pretrial chamber, except the late Judge Hans Kaul. If it was very clear to me here at Mukibis that these cases did not have anything in them, how did such glaring facts escape the eye and mind of a judge at such a high level as the ICC? Doesnt this provide credence to the views that ICC as an institution and all her staff are controlled from elsewhere and that they are persuaded by other parties not present at the Hague? As the curtain finally fall on the Kenyan cases, ICC must have an introspection. Its image has been battered badly. There is no one in Kenya right now, PEV victim or otherwise (and outside Kenya)that thinks this court has what it takes to be termed 'international'. In fact, I dare say, majority of Kenyans will take Mutunga court anytime over the ICC. For now ICC as constituted can only survive in dysfunctional states, unfortunately, there are not so many such states out there. ~~ Mwalimumkuu @nyumbakubwa ~~ |
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Post by OtishOtish on Dec 8, 2014 8:00:52 GMT 3
Well, Uhuru Kenyatta has firmly pledged his loyalty and carefully steered off a public discourse featuring the l ook-east madness of his predecessor. And here is his reward. If he did not blink and profess tail-swinging love to New Rome, the Yankees who run a fine-comb information gathering system (as their eavesdropping of Merkel of Germany and Hollande of France shows) would definitely have helped the incompetent ICC duo of Bensouda and Ocampo out. I'm not big on "geo-political" stuff, and I don't see Kenya as important to the rest of the world as Kenyans---quite rightly, of course!---think it is. But this is one of those "very logical" questions that must come to mind, and Gaynor (the Victims' Rep in the case) did ask. I'd have to go back and take a detailed look, but it is in there someplace ...either in the transcripts of a status conference or in written submissions. Gaynor's question, to the OTP was straightforward: "The Americans were here, there, and everywhere, and recording everything. Have you talked to them about what they recorded during that period?" Americans: "no comment". OTP: "we do not discuss our investigative strategies". Plain English: "We can't own up to doing that to our friends!" and "we know that they know that we know"? |
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Post by omundustrong on Dec 8, 2014 9:02:14 GMT 3
We shall still as country,need to institute local investigations to establish who exactly did what during the post-election violence to fix responsibility.The balancing act by Ocampo of picking three from ODM and three from PNU has come a cropper.The clashes have always been there from 92,97,and the mother of it all in 2007/2008.In all the cases the violence has been fanned by politicians allegedly to remove "madoadoa" from the areas.For the victims,they need to sue the state for failure to protect lives and property as this is a cardinal requirement of any Government.
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Post by b6k on Dec 8, 2014 12:41:02 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu, I had no idea our friends who left to deeply vegetate elsewhere have disappeared from cyberspace. It's ironic that some who claim not to believe the geo-political angle(s) in the sham cases invested heavily in the erroneous belief that the ICC would provide the silver bullet to stop their political enemies in their tracks. Regime change by NGO & the international community as it were. I suppose people really do see only that which they want to see... Looking back at how the Ocampo-6 have been reduced to the Bensouda-2, it's been taking about 1 year from charges being dropped from one case to the next. So long as Ruto can avoid the possibility of being convicted by the testimony of a single witness (a scenario I've heard only possible at the ICC & no other court in the world!) expect him to walk by latest December 2015. As for the quality of judges, don't forget the very sober Dutch justice, Christine Van den Wyngaert who pulled out of the case last year. Her castigation of the OTP was so damning that it must be repeated again to show that it's no accident Uhuru is now free: “I fully concur with the elucidation in the decision of the prosecution’s rights and obligations under article 54(1) (a) of the statute. However, I would have gone further in that I am of the view that there are serious questions as to whether the prosecution conducted a full and thorough investigation of the case of the accused prior to confirmation,” said Wyngaert. “In fact I believe that the facts show that the prosecution had not complied with the obligation under article 54 (1) (a) at the time when it sought confirmation and that it was still not even remotely ready when the proceedings before this Chamber started.” www.standardmedia.co.ke/mobile/?articleID=2000082449&story_title=Even when such a glaring condemnation of the OTP was presented to the proponents of the ICC (& I must stress again that some of us initially rallied our support behind the court but soon lost faith in it as Ocampo's incompetence was unveiled & the cases hobbled along) they dismissed us as naysayers. The fat lady has now sang her song & our lack of confidence in the court has now been vindicated. Indeed I hazard a guess that even the strategy of not giving Uhuru a full acquittal is more of a self preservation strategy by the ICC to make it appear like the case remains open ended not because they even remotely believe that new evidence will emerge but to forestall any ideas UK may have of suing them. After all if Muthaura spent 700 million shillings in his defense, I wonder how much has been spent on Uhuru's defense up to now... |
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Post by jakaswanga on Dec 8, 2014 19:25:58 GMT 3
Mwalimumkuu, As for the quality of judges, don't forget the very sober Dutch justice, Christine Van den Wyngaert who pulled out of the case last year. Her castigation of the OTP was so damning that it must be repeated again to show that it's no accident Uhuru is now free: “I fully concur with the elucidation in the decision of the prosecution’s rights and obligations under article 54(1) (a) of the statute. However, I would have gone further in that I am of the view that there are serious questions as to whether the prosecution conducted a full and thorough investigation of the case of the accused prior to confirmation,” said Wyngaert.
“In fact I believe that the facts show that the prosecution had not complied with the obligation under article 54 (1) (a) at the time when it sought confirmation and that it was still not even remotely ready when the proceedings before this Chamber started.”www.standardmedia.co.ke/mobile/?articleID=2000082449&story_title=Even when such a glaring condemnation of the OTP was presented to the proponents of the ICC (& I must stress again that some of us initially rallied our support behind the court but soon lost faith in it as Ocampo's incompetence was unveiled & the cases hobbled along) they dismissed us as naysayers. The fat lady has now sang her song & our lack of confidence in the court has now been vindicated. Careful folks, you are developing a convincing case, of the dismissal of the Muigai charges, or the semi acquittal of His Excellency the defendant by the ICC thingy, as more the inevitable result of investigative incompetence and prosecutorial laziness. That is, a much more thorough, professional and tenacious team –-like that guy who nailed Al-Capone, would have collected Uhuru Kenyatta's scalp speed time! NB: b6k, you said something which has jarred me ablaze. 1. The quality of the Judges. 2. Blame the game not the player. --It reminds me of D'Angelo Barksdale in one of his contemplative moments. Remember the Wire? it starts with a court scene, an acquittal after witnesses recant; after others have run into bullets and their damning truths lost forever. An indomitable bad, Nutty cop confronts the learned Judge and reads him the situation. The FARCE he has just presided over, fool that he be! So, what will the judge do? given his salary is guaranteed either way!? NB2: Our much hyped Oga-Chief, Big brain who understands African realities, instead of him showing some calibre and grit, even a mock awareness of the said African political realities of power, mentally collapsed and recussed himself into a coiled millipede -- okolo modwong' style. He proved himself an intellectual hoax and fraud who, like a large dick that passed a porno audition only to prove helplessly flaccid in the face of spread, gaping pu-ssy, went to sleep over the hidden motives of recanting witnesses or ones who lost their tongues forever. He is not our Phelan is he? Our Oga Chief-O with some kind of Northern drawl! |
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Post by jakaswanga on Dec 8, 2014 19:53:21 GMT 3
We shall still as country,need to institute local investigations to establish who exactly did what during the post-election violence to fix responsibility.The balancing act by Ocampo of picking three from ODM and three from PNU has come a cropper.The clashes have always been there from 92,97,and the mother of it all in 2007/2008.In all the cases the violence has been fanned by politicians allegedly to remove "madoadoa" from the areas.For the victims,they need to sue the state for failure to protect lives and property as this is a cardinal requirement of any Government. I have always sought to qualify my hostility to these foreign courts whose inner mechanisms chime to other laws than justice for the people of the African continent. A thing like PEV is our mess. And one way or another we gotta clean it up ourselves. We can not outsource such a fundamental question to foreigners. ---One will remember how the Jewishh power structure outsourced the eradication of their major irritation, the self-proclaimed Messiah aka son of God Jesus Christus, to the Roman prefect. I believe Pontius Pilatus he went by name. Pilatus was a wily man, a trained Roman who understood intrigue. ' 'I find in him no crime!'', he grinned. ''However, why do you not do with him as you please!?'''GURE URU! GURE URU!'' (CRUXIFY HIM! CRUXIFY HIM!) The mob thundered. The grin on the face of the wily Roman spread. Yes, this self-make-believe God-son would die the usual way. But his blood would not be on Rome's hand! His own people had condemned him to death! And so there is an alternative reading to the ICC judgement: Wily like Pilato, they are not going to do out dirty job for us! Take him back and do with him as you wish, fwacking Kenyans! And unlike the Jerusalem jewish crowd who shouted cruxify him! cruxify him! we yell: OURU FOREVER! OURU FOREVER! and we dance our legs lame. well, we used to sing Kenya nchi yetu hakuna matata! and those who believed those lyrics may still wonder where the matata of 2007/2008 aka PEV came from? Yes, as a nation we are not at ease deep down our hearts. that is the tic-toc-tic-toc we have to diffuse, so that these words --raha tupate na ustawi (within our borders) can ring true forever! |
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Post by jakaswanga on Dec 8, 2014 19:59:34 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, Kenyatta = Innocent, Ruto = Innocent? No! 1 + 1 > 2.... In that case you propose and argue, are we still really doing our calculations in the decimal base!? --yawa! |
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Post by b6k on Dec 9, 2014 19:39:23 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, Kenyatta = Innocent, Ruto = Innocent? No! 1 + 1 > 2.... In that case you propose and argue, are we still really doing our calculations in the decimal base!? --yawa! Hahaha. No Jakaswanga that's WSR's favorite quote in rallies: "One plus one is greater than two". Let's hope for his sake, now that Uhuru is no longer one with him at the ICC, he doesn't find out that one plus one is less than zero!... |
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Post by kamalet on Dec 10, 2014 10:26:25 GMT 3
We shall still as country,need to institute local investigations to establish who exactly did what during the post-election violence to fix responsibility.The balancing act by Ocampo of picking three from ODM and three from PNU has come a cropper.The clashes have always been there from 92,97,and the mother of it all in 2007/2008.In all the cases the violence has been fanned by politicians allegedly to remove "madoadoa" from the areas.For the victims,they need to sue the state for failure to protect lives and property as this is a cardinal requirement of any Government. Omundu In the gikuyu tradition, there was not much to say about death. They seemed to accept and resign themselves to its finality. SO if you were sick and about to die, your folks took you to the forest with enough food for a couple of days and if you survived you returned to your folks and if you dies you were forgotten and the wild animals would feed on your body. Your folks literary abandoned you. I know this is unlike many communities in Kenya where death rituals are quite elaborate. It is not very common for the traditional gikuyu even today to have memorials and it is perhaps the christian folk that have made an effort of coming back after sometime to 'lay the cross' on the grave. Which brings me to the question on how we as Kenyans should deal with the past. I know of people of gikuyu extraction who moved on after the clashes and went out to start their lives a new. I even know of some charlatans who saw the opportunity to reap where they never sowed and did not even care about those who died - these gikuyus you can never be far from! My point is that Kenya might not want to view the events of 92, 97 and 2007 the way the gikuyu did, but at times it works better for the same of not re-opening wounds! |
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Post by omundustrong on Dec 10, 2014 12:53:56 GMT 3
Kamale,i agree with you to some extent,however,we have to address the issue of property destroyed and illegally acquired.This cuts across all tribes.In 1992 i happened to be in Molo and saw first hand the atrocities that were committed under the guise of clearing madoa doa read, Ford Asili supporters,The same happened to up-country communities in Coast in 1997,the cycle repeated itself in 2007/2008 albeit in monstrous proportions.In all the cases people's property were grabbed,destroyed,lives lost.Somehow we shall have to re-open the chapter,face the festering wound and staunch it once and for all.Even in Rift Valley,the peace currently enjoyed is superficial.When you read the sentiments on social media you get a feeling of a lull before a major storm.
If we claim there is peace what happened to land that was owned by those who fled the clash areas?Are the grabbers ready to return it to the owners?Who are the owners?Are they people who sold it then turned round and said the land was grabbed from them by earlier regimes?We have to face the hard questions and settle this matter once and for all.If memory serves me right, these were some of the agenda 4 items that we have never addressed.
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Post by kamalet on Dec 11, 2014 16:16:58 GMT 3
Kamale,i agree with you to some extent,however,we have to address the issue of property destroyed and illegally acquired.This cuts across all tribes.In 1992 i happened to be in Molo and saw first hand the atrocities that were committed under the guise of clearing madoa doa read, Ford Asili supporters,The same happened to up-country communities in Coast in 1997,the cycle repeated itself in 2007/2008 albeit in monstrous proportions.In all the cases people's property were grabbed,destroyed,lives lost.Somehow we shall have to re-open the chapter,face the festering wound and staunch it once and for all.Even in Rift Valley,the peace currently enjoyed is superficial.When you read the sentiments on social media you get a feeling of a lull before a major storm. If we claim there is peace what happened to land that was owned by those who fled the clash areas?Are the grabbers ready to return it to the owners?Who are the owners?Are they people who sold it then turned round and said the land was grabbed from them by earlier regimes?We have to face the hard questions and settle this matter once and for all.If memory serves me right, these were some of the agenda 4 items that we have never addressed. You are right on the issue of restitution. But if we are repeat what we saw with the 2007-8 IDPs, then we might as well not bother. The fact that the government in its desire to resettle victims of PEV allowed itself to be conned by people that had no land but just masqueraded as IPD shows you the dangers of going into restitution without a plan. There should be no question of resettling people on their old farms, but the evictees would need to be given back something equivalent to what they lost. The 'grabbers' should also face some penalty of being made to pay for land that they grabbed to help government cover the cost of restitution. We have peace and keep the peace if we did the right things. |
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Post by podp on Dec 11, 2014 20:09:54 GMT 3
[quote source="/post/131821/thread" timestamp="1418205236" If we claim there is peace what happened to land that was owned by those who fled the clash areas?Are the grabbers ready to return it to the owners?Who are the owners?Are they people who sold it then turned round and said the land was grabbed from them by earlier regimes?We have to face the hard questions and settle this matter once and for all.If memory serves me right, these were some of the agenda 4 items that we have never addressed. You are right on the issue of restitution. But if we are repeat what we saw with the 2007-8 IDPs, then we might as well not bother. The fact that the government in its desire to resettle victims of PEV allowed itself to be conned by people that had no land but just masqueraded as IPD shows you the dangers of going into restitution without a plan. There should be no question of resettling people on their old farms, but the evictees would need to be given back something equivalent to what they lost. The 'grabbers' should also face some penalty of being made to pay for land that they grabbed to help government cover the cost of restitution. We have peace and keep the peace if we did the right things. [/quote] red highlight soft on national security, capitalizing on the anti-terror fever. www.msnbc.com/msnbc/isis-roars-the-gop-resurrects-the-politics-fearif national security would let county security complement and share resources i.e. cameras in major centers coordinated as shown on television today. the feeling those in Tana, Kapendo, Baragoi, Wajir etc should be same or comparable with that in cities like Nairobi, Kisumu, Mombasa, Voi, etc then peace and justice will live side by side justice keeping the peace |
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Post by mank on Dec 14, 2014 19:33:04 GMT 3
I wonder how long they will drag the other case on. ... too much of the shenanigans we only speculated about in the past is now out in the open to keep the charade going much longer.
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Post by OtishOtish on Dec 15, 2014 2:07:19 GMT 3
I wonder how long they will drag the other case on. ... too much of the shenanigans we only speculated about in the past is now out in the open to keep the charade going much longer. As things stand, and unless there is a sudden & major change, it's hard to see how Ruto could be found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt". But the case could go on for much longer than people imagine. A critical point will be when Ruto's defence files a "no-case-to-answer" motion. It's hard to know how that will go, given that some "sensitive" evidence has been given in "private" sessions. We the public don't know what was said. (In fact, I doubt that much of the public has really been following all the sessions.) Still, on the basis of what I've heard, if I were to place a bet, it would be on a ruling that Ruto-Sang ought to mount a defence. Another point is that the ICC differs from a "normal" court in a very significant way: The latter is primarily concerned with guilt vs. innocence; and if a perp were to say " yes, I did it!; and, yes, I would do it again, if I could !", the next phase would be the sentencing phase. At the ICC, the judges have the authority, in such a case, to still order a trial, because they have a mandate to "get to the truth". I mention the last point because there is, even in Kenya, a great deal that people don't know: Was the burning of those women and children in Kiambaa just a "random" act by a few hooligans? Were Mungiki actions in Naivasha just the "spontaneous" actions of a few crazed criminals? If the court takes seriously its mandate regarding the truth, then, unless the case against Ruto-Sang is really hopeless, the trial will continue. Lastly, even though the case against Uhuru has collapsed, people would still like to know what exactly the prosecutor claimed to have against him to start with. Uhuru's QCs have put up a spirited battle to stop the public from seeing the prosecutor's Pre-Trial Brief, but the judges this week finally ruled that there is no reason why the public should not see it: www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1882796.pdfIt will be available next month. (Additional rulings on other "sensitive/hot" documents are pending.) |
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Post by mank on Dec 15, 2014 6:29:12 GMT 3
I wonder how long they will drag the other case on. ... too much of the shenanigans we only speculated about in the past is now out in the open to keep the charade going much longer. As things stand, and unless there is a sudden & major change, it's hard to see how Ruto could be found guilty "beyond reasonable doubt". But the case could go on for much longer than people imagine. I would not even include the "beyond reasonable doubt." A critical point will be when Ruto's defence files a "no-case-to-answer" motion. It's hard to know how that will go, given that some "sensitive" evidence has been given in "private" sessions. We the public don't know what was said. (In fact, I doubt that much of the public has really been following all the sessions.) Still, on the basis of what I've heard, if I were to place a bet, it would be on a ruling that Ruto-Sang ought to mount a defence. Indeed we don't know what the court heard in closed/private sessions. But I feel confident extrapolating what we have heard in public ... and I have put my my popcorn to the use it was intended. I have heard every word said and recorded in public, up to Dec 5. I don't understand how wananchi lost interest, so fast, in the life drama. Another point is that the ICC differs from a "normal" court in a very significant way: The latter is primarily concerned with guilt vs. innocence; and if a perp were to say " yes, I did it!; and, yes, I would do it again, if I could !", the next phase would be the sentencing phase. At the ICC, the judges have the authority, in such a case, to still order a trial, because they have a mandate to "get to the truth". I hope the judges will find it to be their duty to also try the OTP for allegations of evidence fabrication and witness coaching, if there is an iota of indication that such allegations have basis. But after there was no question for the OTP as to what became of all the "indisputable evidence", in UK's case at dismissals, I have little confidence that the court wants to know the whole truth. I mention the last point because there is, even in Kenya, a great deal that people don't know: Was the burning of those women and children in Kiambaa just a "random" act by a few hooligans? Were Mungiki actions in Naivasha just the "spontaneous" actions of a few crazed criminals? If the court takes seriously its mandate regarding the truth, then, unless the case against Ruto-Sang is really hopeless, the trial will continue.From where I sit, it seems like the court doesn't care about "few hooligans" if there is no connection of them with the accused. So, to me, it seems like the court does not want the whole truth ... unless that whole truth is convenient for convicting a currently accused. Lastly, even though the case against Uhuru has collapsed, people would still like to know what exactly the prosecutor claimed to have against him to start with . Unless Jeff calls the Amigo back to the bench, I doubt that question will be raised to any correct party again!  Uhuru's QCs have put up a spirited battle to stop the public from seeing the prosecutor's Pre-Trial Brief, but the judges this week finally ruled that there is no reason why the public should not see it: www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1882796.pdfIt will be available next month. (Additional rulings on other "sensitive/hot" documents are pending.) Now if they could just tell us how seriously they have thought of the allegations made about OTP fabricating everything! |
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