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Post by madgf on Mar 26, 2011 16:44:13 GMT 3
Mank, I second you wholeheartedly here. Hang on a minute. Ritchie uses slander to justify the politics concerning RAO, Mank should know better and he does know better. But you on the otherhand is supposed to be making me waffles, what are you doing here? Get back in the kitchen please. Ritchie, be REAL. Ok.. let's have a look at the premises concerning your numbered assertions.. Kibaki ditched Raila by rubbishing the MoU, fired him shortly after Orange saved Kenya from that Wako mongrel, Ruto is still trying to dismember ODM from within despite the fact he's supposed to be at the Hague, Kalonzo (Judas) bailed out just before Kasarani stealing the ODM name certificate, Balala was tricked by Ruto, Raila stuck up for Ngilu during that water scandal.. I'm sorry but you're not being sober. Ok the next bit is just propaganda. You need to check your facts and present a credible argument as to why RAO is so bad like you try to depict. When RAO was energy minister, the State dwelt with Triton and that other stuff you've tried to intertwine with RAO. I suggest you don't confuse public dealings for private ones. The relation RAO had to that maize scandal was with Ruto. Ruto, not Raila nor his family were in charge of agriculture and that maize. Ruto was a key coalition partner who ditched Raila to sell himself to Kibaki. So why not expose him for corruption. That's just politics. Let me also add Ranneberger was a diplomat endorsed by Bush and did not support an Odinga presidency. The only country really endorsing those cables is America for whatever strategic purpose. They're not credible sources. As far as I'm concerned, RAO leadership and the political direction Kenya has taken because of his unwavering commitment for decades has been nothing short of an enigma. If you have difficulty seeing that, then I suggest you study the political context, check your facts, and understand how things work.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 26, 2011 17:11:49 GMT 3
Ritchie:
Welcome to Jukwaa.
It is amusing to see you exporting to Jukwaa the gunk and junk I see infesting many of the Kenyan mainstream media houses-whether print or electronic.
Railaphobia strictly speaking, makes a lot commercial sense.
If you are a newspaper owner for instance, and want to sell out your copy just put the word "Raila" in the headline.
The unfortunate thing for you is that here at Jukwaa no one makes a single ndururu whether you decide to yodel Ruto's name, heckle Uhuru, skewer Kalonzo, lampoon Kibaki or rail against Raila.
Perhaps it may be more useful if you spent your energies sharing with us cogent, coherent and serious socio-economic and political analysis instead of recycling all the imbecile canards from the anti- Raila political rallies.
I look forward to reading something INTELLIGENT from you.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 26, 2011 17:21:17 GMT 3
Ritchie,blah blah blah etc etc etc...At that point, your salvation may only come through the moderator – OO. The moderator rarely contributes under his OO name, however, I am definite he has another online identity for the debates blah blah blah etc etc and so on and so forth Fellow Jukwaa Member:You startle me with that slanderous, deranged specious untruth. Ati you are "definite" that I have "another online identity for the debates" Huh? I do not know how long you have been part of Kenyan online discussion groups, because if you were a veteran you would know why Onyango Oloo was at one point one of the most vilified posters in the entire cyberspace. For one reason only: Onyango Oloo ALWAYS uses his real name ONYANGO OLOO whether he is online or offline; on television or radio; in the newspapers or in public forums.Why on earth would I NEED a fake identity when I am the founder and administrator of this site? Incidentally, can you hazard a guess as to my alleged alter egos? Wow. Are you from the planet Neptune or thereabouts? Incidentally, I am in a MUCH BETTER POSITION than you to describe the MAJORITY of Jukwaa members. No they are NOT the ODM sympathizers and Raila supporters. Those are in the MINORITY. The majority of Jukwaa members- and remember we are over 1,400- are SILENT LURKERS who NEVER EVER POST ANYTHING ON JUKWAA. Almost everyday on the streets of Nairobi I am stopped by somebody who inquires if I am indeed THE Onyango Oloo ( not to be confused with the OTHER Onyango Oloo-George, the lawyer- who spends a lot of his time hating Raila). When I "plead guilty" to the crime of being Onyango Oloo the first thing I get is praise for Jukwaa followed by this confession: "I am a member of Jukwaa BUT I NEVER POST ANYTHING. I just love reading from you guys." One of those members is a well known ambassador from a certain west European country famous for its soccer wizardry (no, not Germany). Another one is a Kenyan who relocated back home recently from Atlanta, Georgia. Another one is a Generation Y pundit who graduated the other year from a certain British university with a law degree. Yet another one is a South African based angel investor who I met at the Club Kuche Kuche some time last year. Onyango Oloo Jukwaa Adminstrator
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Mar 26, 2011 18:52:34 GMT 3
"Without a doubt" ??!!! What does that say about you Mank? I am getting really tired of these Jukwaa members who abuse the very democratic debating space and discourse platform we have proffered them to keep on trashing Jukwaa.It is very hypocritical. Onyango Oloo Administrator
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Post by mank on Mar 26, 2011 20:28:27 GMT 3
"Without a doubt"??!!!
What does that say about you Mank?
I am getting really tired of these Jukwaa members who abuse the very democratic debating space and discourse platform we have proffered them to keep on trashing Jukwaa.
It is very hypocritical.
Onyango Oloo AdministratorOloo, My thoughts are colliding in my head right now, and I sense I won't fully respond. I am running some errands, and will come back and communicate. I treasure the opportunity to do so with the knowledge that I have your attention.
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Post by merlin on Mar 26, 2011 21:38:15 GMT 3
I am probably a bit late to welcome Ritchie to the board as he is already involved in a discussion with more than 29 contributions.
However when I read the contributions it seems he contributed just one entry only. The other 28 contributions are from experienced JUKWAA members.
Ritchie must have touched on something which opened sore places and emotions of JUKWAA members.
I wonder what is so precious in his contribution.
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Post by tnk on Mar 26, 2011 21:46:51 GMT 3
. The other 28 contributions are from experienced JUKWAA members. Ritchie must have touched on something which opened sore places and emotions of JUKWAA members. I wonder what is so precious in his contribution. the horrendous depth of the emptiness or shallowness see madgf's response ( ignore skip the part where horth ;D ;D is ordered back to do the dishes)
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Post by commes on Mar 26, 2011 22:19:26 GMT 3
. The other 28 contributions are from experienced JUKWAA members. Ritchie must have touched on something which opened sore places and emotions of JUKWAA members. I wonder what is so precious in his contribution. the horrendous depth of the emptiness or shallowness see madgf's response ( ignore skip the part where horth ;D ;D is ordered back to do the dishes) tnk/merlinThe entry bar by Ritchie was far too low. Since it was the chaps 1st contribution, we felt obliged to provide some polite guidance. As for Mank and Horth, I think that madgf has done something in that area. I think Job said that we need some form of quality control in this forum. OO I hope that you are listening. Ever since you kicked out the likes of emkei ( who has since resurfaced here under another handle) and more recently mbuta, law and order seems to have prevailed. There are a few other juvenile irritants and hecklers but I think that we can leave with them for now. Jukwaa should not be about xxxxxxx but about quality. My 2 cents, but I support the views of the progressive and sober minded. I stand to be challedged.
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Post by tnk on Mar 26, 2011 22:38:50 GMT 3
commes
i concur
was talking about how shallow ritchie's maiden (at least under that handle) post was, and pointing out that madgf was gracious enough to spend time and went ahead to debunk whatever myths were being propagated, some of us simply ignore the rants pretty much the same as we have to do when someone who should know better passes gas in a public and not so appropriate location. i usually call this burping from the wrong end, knowing that even burping with the designated orifice is still considered rude in some cultures
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Post by reuben on Mar 27, 2011 0:48:25 GMT 3
Thread starter, You made sweeping allegation about Raila but you failed to analyze your empirical material. You wrote that Raila cannot be right because he had conflicts with people in the parties he has been in. You listed them but not the context in which those political decisions were made. I think that every political strategist will tell you that you have to read the spirit of time in order to achieve your goals. In as much as I dislike Kibaki, he too has been a master of using parties and moving on as soon as they became a burden. The difference is that Kibaki does it quietly and Raila does it with drums and gongs.
It must be noted that those people who Raila disagreed with all lost at the end but he has remained relevant. They read the signs wrongly and the lost.
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Post by gemagema on Mar 27, 2011 1:00:00 GMT 3
Ritchie,blah blah blah etc etc etc...At that point, your salvation may only come through the moderator – OO. The moderator rarely contributes under his OO name, however, I am definite he has another online identity for the debates blah blah blah etc etc and so on and so forth Fellow Jukwaa Member:You startle me with that slanderous, deranged specious untruth. Ati you are "definite" that I have "another online identity for the debates" Huh? I do not know how long you have been part of Kenyan online discussion groups, because if you were a veteran you would know why Onyango Oloo was at one point one of the most vilified posters in the entire cyberspace. For one reason only: Onyango Oloo ALWAYS uses his real name ONYANGO OLOO whether he is online or offline; on television or radio; in the newspapers or in public forums.Why on earth would I NEED a fake identity when I am the founder and administrator of this site? Incidentally, can you hazard a guess as to my alleged alter egos? Wow. Are you from the planet Neptune or thereabouts? Incidentally, I am in a MUCH BETTER POSITION than you to describe the MAJORITY of Jukwaa members. No they are NOT the ODM sympathizers and Raila supporters. Those are in the MINORITY. The majority of Jukwaa members- and remember we are over 1,400- are SILENT LURKERS who NEVER EVER POST ANYTHING ON JUKWAA. Almost everyday on the streets of Nairobi I am stopped by somebody who inquires if I am indeed THE Onyango Oloo ( not to be confused with the OTHER Onyango Oloo-George, the lawyer- who spends a lot of his time hating Raila). When I "plead guilty" to the crime of being Onyango Oloo the first thing I get is praise for Jukwaa followed by this confession: "I am a member of Jukwaa BUT I NEVER POST ANYTHING. I just love reading from you guys." One of those members is a well known ambassador from a certain west European country famous for its soccer wizardry (no, not Germany). Another one is a Kenyan who relocated back home recently from Atlanta, Georgia. Another one is a Generation Y pundit who graduated the other year from a certain British university with a law degree. Yet another one is a South African based angel investor who I met at the Club Kuche Kuche some time last year. Onyango Oloo Jukwaa Adminstrator To my esteemed Administrator Onyango Oloo,I must say it feels quite surreal reading a comment from you that directly responds to my post. Actually I feel honoured. Mr Administrator, I may have judged you harshly, more particularly as regards your online identity. But, I stand by my argument, because, how was I supposed to know. Most bloggers and online contributors revel in the functionality of anonymity, and that is why they freely write and express what they would never do on a face to face communication. So, pole sana. At least you mention a reason that i can easily use as an escape root for my allegations about you. You reckon that if one has been long enough on the kenyan online discussion scene, they would know you by now. Truth be said, I knew your online presence only during the 2007 campaigns and elections. As an administrator and a founder of Jukwaa, i do believe that you are privileged to know the jukwaa membership better than me. But do not underestimate my judgement too. Anyways, I am also one of those Kenyans who passively followed Jukwaa and other political blogs as a spectator for a long time. After a long wait, I thought, why not, i can happen an active gig on Jukwaa and other blogs too. Therefore, i morphed from passivity into active participation by joining Jukwaa. Participatory democracy at work. Sooner or later, I will, like you, also learn to operate in my real identity, and when that time comes, you will come to know who I am. Hata hivyo, you are a good administrator. You have some seriousness in you that invokes discipline. Lakini usiwe mkali sana. Allow us to exist on Jukwaa without fear. You know, I want to be able to discourse on Jukwaa without fear of being kicked out. Jukwaa is a nice platform. Have a nice weekend Ni mimi, gemagema
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Post by mank on Mar 27, 2011 4:21:49 GMT 3
To Oloo, with all due respect, You asked me this: "Without a doubt"??!!! What does that say about you Mank? I am getting really tired of these Jukwaa members who abuse the very democratic debating space and discourse platform we have proffered them to keep on trashing Jukwaa.
It is very hypocritical.Onyango Oloo Administrator Let me first trace where this response is coming from, to put my answer in perspective: Ritchie,
Welcome to Jukwaa. You certainly started on the wrong footing.
If you wanted to be cheered rather than booed you should have spent a tenth of the time to dig out negatives on
Uhuru or Ruto. You might want to try that. In other words, refocus. Lots of audience is waiting to burst in
rhythmic praise. mank
is this your (honest) assessment of jukwaa? So to answer your question what this response says about me is that I perceive the democratic rights to which we aspire at Jukwaa to be gagged by a popular strategy by a significant membership. To be clear, my words have nothing to do with my value in what Ritchie said in his opener thread, and everything to do with my perception of a very effective undemocratic partisan culture in the way various postings are handled here. I think I explained it better here: mank
from what you wrote, you appear to herd this jukwaa noob to an us vs them mindset, and not towards a broad perhaps semi/quasi objective mindset. why ? TNK,
Good you noticed that. It is not an objective mindset. If you called it a submissive mindset you would be closer to the truth. I mean, really, look through out the discussions here and judge.
When Miguna comes uttering the stupidest things a grown man can utter, it becomes wisdom. Reason being that for us Miguna is talking down the politically correct people for a talk-down. Kuria comes and talks stupid stuff, less stupid I must say than Miguna (who triggered Kuria in the first place), and Kuria is despicably stupid. Now, that's the most recent thing. We could roll back in history if you really want to postmortem my syndrome.
For as long as I have been a member of Jukwaa I have never felt this low. I have faced tides I thought worth fighting. This time it feels different. Different in the sense I imagine it felt to my grandfather generation as they were incarcerated and castrated by white GoK. They fought like hell, and as they were winning, they were losing what mattered the most. It feels the same today from where I sit. As a nation we ain't winning and you know it! Its a rearrangement of the system, and in the process more is being lost that is being gained, except those who think themselves to be the winners can care less what is lost by us all. It is sickening!
By the way, personally I have no sides, except the side of Kenya. I have not known power in Kenya that was on my side, and I do not expect it in my lifetime. So, the fact that I am not praising Raila every day does not mean that I am praising Uhuru, Ruto or Kalonzo.
To be honest with you I would rather see Raila as president than Uhuru. But that is not enough reason to think I am a Raila person either. The fact is the Jukwaa mass does not have room for non-partisans like I man. Nudge me the day we can honestly analyze Raila Odinga's strenghts and weaknesses without calling each other names, and I might change my view.
Raila Odinga is not the problem. The problem is those who think they are doing him a service with the stubbornest war since Berlin. We have an unfair representation of them here.In my perception, Miguna's recent rant of how Uhuru has never amounted to anything is as trashy as Ritchie's piece. See this: Uhuru Should Focus On His Defence At ICC- Miguna Miguna .... Uhuru .... has never lacked anything in life. I have done some research on this son of Jomo and discovered nothing compelling. There isn’t anything remarkable about Uhuru; no achievement worth mentioning. From nursery school to college, the son of Jomo performed below average. As far as I can gather, he was neither good in sports or academics. He wasn’t a gifted speaker or debater either. Nor is he now. ... ...Credit is due to Uhuru, however, for excelling in other extra-curriculum activities like smoking and drinking. At Njiiri’s High School in Murang’a where I did my Advanced Levels, I used to punish those who belonged to Uhuru’s league. But Njiiri’s was a public boarding boys’ school, which also happened to have earned the national trophy for discipline throughout the period that I was there. I suspect that the situation was very different at the expensive St. Mary’s private school in Nairobi where Uhuru and other privileged kids were sequestered. ......
Miguna is the PM’s advisor on Coalition Affairs. The views expressed here are his own.
www.the-star.co.ke/opinions/miguna-miguna/18163-uhuru-should-focus-on-defending-himself-at-the-hagueWhat was the reaction? Here: wait for it
here comes kamale hee hee, I could not wait any longer. Let me chip in for him.
Probably he may be persuaded to abstain or defer his dismissing comments on this one.
It may go something like this, “yet another Miguna worshipper”. “There is nothing remarkable about this post”.
Point has been made Uhuru and Ruto ganged up and had the Special Tribunal Bill rejected by Parliament. They demanded the ICC. They got the ICC.Does that reaction sound like a pre-emptive silencer of potential "Kamales" of this topic? To me it does, and it is not an isolated occurrence. It is a strategy that is repeated over an over to dwarf the airing of a certain class of views. It is the new way of making people with certain views " to lie low like an envelop". That culture relies on two main tools to gag the intended democratic space of Jukwaa: - drag authors who post negatives on Raila in mud (go for the author's juglar especially when the material is not contestable). - convolute discussions of other topics with non-topical nonsense, such as "we did not tell your guys to go kill ... etc etc" What I was saying therefore, is that had Ritchie been for Raila, or against the anti-Raila brand, he would get the same standing ovations Miguna gets. It's a statement of my perception of an anti-democratic culture that gives Jukwaa a character very unlike what you intend and believe the space to be. It is irreconcillable that Miguna's trash is praised while opposition to it is used to label members with hair crosses and pre-emptively silence them. We can claim to be democratic all day, but this is a not an attribute of democracy.
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Post by kamalet on Mar 27, 2011 9:10:29 GMT 3
Ritchie for all that it is worth, had some potent accusations against the PM's family especially scams in the oil industry. Now those informed of the goings on in that industry will readily confirm that fact.
What is typical of this forum was to go for the writer for the sin of dragging Raila's name into the story.
But the hypocrisy that we know permeates this forum gets well shown when there are people who will readily list out companies of the Kenyatta or Kibaki families, allege corruption and without batting an eyelid, many followers come screaming crucify them! crucufy them!
If someone wants to make a case defending Raila, the best they can do is show how cleant the deals involving the family of Raila are. Nope - we shall not do that! So we end up crucifying poor Ritchie and not countering his allegations. They then remain appering like the truth for as long as no one counters them.
For this reason, I am honestly surprised at the reaction by Oloo and can only agree with the message Mank is trying to pass through to Jukwaa.
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Post by Horth on Mar 27, 2011 9:47:46 GMT 3
Madgf,
Waffles? I love them with sautéed chicken lips with honey. Let’s invite tnk for some.
My support of Mank has nothing to do with Ritchie’s juvenile ranting on the negative issues of Raila. His piece, in my opinion, is driven more by the loathing he feels for Raila the person than anything to do with helping move Kenya forward as a country. His post is simply to bury Raila, nothing more. That’s why I cannot bring myself to defend his post nor respond to it. Waste of time and brain cells.
On the other hand, what Mank wrote is something I see being played out here under the guise of “open and honest” debate on the future of Kenya. From where I stand, Raila is merely human, and like Mank wrote, he has human strengths and, most importantly, human weaknesses. His strengths are openly debated even glorified. His weaknesses are generally camouflaged using intellectual deceit. Refusing to acknowledge them puts one in the same boat as Kibaki supporters. Yes, Kibaki may have done well for Kenya in the past however that has all been wiped out by his utter stupidity, greed for power, and leadership by brinkmanship “qualities”. Just imagine if we as a country had honestly analyzed Kibaki the man in 2002, instead of blindly following our tribal kingpins. Would things have been different? We’ll never know but what we can know is that we might have avoided a ton of bloodshed. Kibaki has never changed since he entered politics. He’s a basket case. We refused to see and acknowledge that until it was too late.
So when it comes to Raila as a future presidential candidate for 2012, I will look and see how he’s handled himself as a leader before I give him my single vote. I’ll not just listen to him; I’ll consider how he’s performed as a party leader and as the PM. Has the PM’s office been run properly? Has massive corruption, which he’s promised more than once to get rid off, being reduced in the ministries run by ODM? Has he sided with and protected corrupt politicians to achieve his desired goal…PORK? These and many more are the questions I’ll consider before making my mark on the ballot. Not just for myself, but for our future generations.
Does all this mean that I don’t acknowledge the sacrifices Raila has made for Kenya? No, not at all. Unfortunately, these sacrifices alone are not the only qualifications required for PORK nor are his years long quest to become PORK. More is required. Much more, as the reign of good ol’ Jomo who talked sweetly before independence showed us. Is Raila power hungry, trying to become PORK? Doesn’t an Olympic contestant compete for gold? They both want to get to the top. Nothing wrong with that. That’s the “gold” in his discipline. For both of them to get the “gold medal”, they have to earn it. As Lucy wisely told Kalonzo, there are no shortcuts to power.
But, and this is a big but, if there is no other option on the ballot box, which is currently the case right now (I’m not precognitive….yet), Raila currently is the best choice from a bad lot for PORK. And, as a responsible citizen, I’ll keep on calling out his failures and/or weaknesses when I see them. It’s my, nah, our duty for this is our only country.
As the old saying goes, “Before careful what you wish for; you might get it”.
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Post by tnk on Mar 28, 2011 1:15:34 GMT 3
Madgf,Waffles? I love them with sautéed chicken lips with honey. Let’s invite tnk for some. breakfast with both of you? am afraid i'd be toast ;D kind of put me in the jam ;D ;D nah, i wont let you guys have me for breakfast -
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Post by mzalendo on Mar 28, 2011 10:27:52 GMT 3
mank from what you wrote, you appear to herd this jukwaa noob to an us vs them mindset, and not towards a broad perhaps semi/quasi objective mindset. why ? I can attempt to think because as apropagandist, hot air blower. he wont need objectivity. objectivity in propaganda is like mixing oil and water.
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