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Post by commes on Apr 5, 2011 18:59:31 GMT 3
We can surely not pretend to talk for the UNSC. The argument here and all ODM fora have been that this thing is dead. Does it not surprise you how it keeps on raising its ugly head every now and then? My point really is that the UNSC has been polite and did not wish to embarrass our esteemed government. I guess we did not understand the signals. Like it is said here on Jukwaa, for free, when the UNSC meets over this Kenya thing, they will only confirm to us that it is dead. I will cash on that ahead of their decision. Kamale, These people have their heads in the sand as usual. We will never tire to remind them that this is Mau phase II. We shall be here to compare notes. I would however wish to hail your earlier post on Mau Mau II. Kenya’s democracy is growing stronger by the day. On a fairer and just platform that is the new constitution, Mau Mau Phase II is unnecessary as it is irrelevant. Kenyans are beginning to win small battles and witness unilateral and uncouth forms of governance failing. The noose is tightening on impunity, its agents and its networks. I am sure that is what you are making reference to. Yes, I agree that those who have not accepted a new dawn in Kenya have their beaks digging deeper in the sand. |
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Apr 5, 2011 19:05:14 GMT 3
We can surely not pretend to talk for the UNSC. The argument here and all ODM fora have been that this thing is dead. Does it not surprise you how it keeps on raising its ugly head every now and then? My point really is that the UNSC has been polite and did not wish to embarrass our esteemed government. I guess we did not understand the signals. Like it is said here on Jukwaa, for free, when the UNSC meets over this Kenya thing, they will only confirm to us that it is dead. I will cash on that ahead of their decision. Kamale, These people have their heads in the sand as usual. We will never tire to remind them that this is Mau phase II. We shall be here to compare notes. I would however wish to hail your earlier post on Mau Mau II. Kenya’s democracy is growing stronger by the day. On a fairer and just platform that is the new constitution, Mau Mau Phase II is unnecessary as it is irrelevant. Kenyans are beginning to win small battles and witness unilateral and uncouth forms of governance failing. The noose is tightening on impunity, its agents and its networks. I am sure that is what you are making reference to. Yes, I agree that those who have not accepted a new dawn in Kenya have their beaks digging deeper in the sand. You sure I talked about Mau Mau? |
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 5, 2011 20:35:35 GMT 3
commes,
Ask the guy about Mau Mau I and he will tell you about Kenyatta and Kapenguria. They don't know a damn thing about Mau Mau. From the way they are worshiping home guards like Muchuki, Mr. Kimendeero (crusher) who excelled in castrating mau mau fighters and crashing their skulls you get a sense in which side people like mwlimumkuu and probably their parents are.
The home guards own them and use them like cheap handkerchief. They run around like maniacs for the Muchukis who don't even give a shit about them. They are very brave when burning little children in houses but cry like little babies when faced with the hands of justice. shauri zao.
As for the UNSC matter, this is rubbish. Typical Kenyan media. Colombia holds the presidency of the UNSC and can list anything to be discussed. If there are no votes such item is just ignored. If these fools want to know how things get done at the UNSC let them look at how the French got the vote on Libya.
The French were the first to ask for the military option. The rest were satisfied with sanctions. Then the Brits joined the French saying Gadhafi needed some heat and not words and sanctions alone. Germany refused at first. Germany is a big stick in NATO, without them you can't get NATO involved. The Americans were wavering. They were OK with the sanctions but given their mess elsewhere were nervous about the military option.
Then the best thing that could happen, happened. Gadhafi went nuts. He was bombing all cities from air, land and sea. Gadhafi was screaming (louder than Uhuru in Kiambu) that he was going to exterminate all the vermins and rats in Bengazi. The Americans panicked and said yes to the military option. With that the French managed to get Germany to join. The Arab League then had no choice but to join even though it is only Qatar that has availed its fighter jets.
Now that is how tough it is to make a decision where thousands of lives were at stake and Gadhafi was at the gates of Bangazi. You have to line all your darts and work around the clock with all the key players to get anything done. You cannot bring jua kali politics to the UNSC, lie to member states about an impending war which you are yourself manufacturing and expect to be taken seriously. There is a difference between working the diplomatic cycles to get things done and whipping up ethnic animosities to protect wanted criminals.
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Post by commes on Apr 5, 2011 20:46:08 GMT 3
commes,Ask the guy about Mau Mau I and he will tell you about Kenyatta and Kapenguria. They don't know a damn thing about Mau Mau. From the way they are worshiping home guards like Muchuki, Mr. Kimendeero (crusher) who excelled in castrating mau mau fighters and crashing their skulls you get a sense in which side people like mwlimumkuu and probably their parents are. The home guards own them and use them like cheap handkerchief. They run around like maniacs for the Muchukis who don't even give a shit about them. They are very brave when burning little children in houses but cry like little babies when faced with the hands of justice. shauri zao. As for the UNSC matter, this is rubbish. Typical Kenyan media. Colombia holds the presidency of the UNSC and can list anything to be discussed. If there are no votes such item is just ignored. If these fools want to know how things get done at the UNSC let them look at how the French got the vote on Libya. The French were the first to ask for the military option. The rest were satisfied with sanctions. Then the Brits joined the French saying Gadhafi needed some heat and not words and sanctions alone. Germany refused at first. Germany is a big stick in NATO, without them you can't get NATO involved. The Americans were wavering. They were OK with the sanctions but given their mess elsewhere were nervous about the military option. Then the best thing that could happen, happened. Gadhafi went nuts. He was bombing all cities from air, land and sea. Gadhafi was screaming (louder than Uhuru in Kiambu) that he was going to exterminate all the vermins and rats in Bengazi. The Americans panicked and said yes to the military option. With that the French managed to get Germany to join. The Arab League then had no choice but to join even though it is only Qatar that has availed its fighter jets. Now that is how tough it is to make a decision where thousands of lives were at stake and Gadhafi was at the gates of Bangazi. You have to line all your darts and work around the clock with all the key players to get anything done. You cannot bring jua kali politics to the UNSC, lie to member states about an impending war which you are yourself manufacturing and expect to be taken seriously. There is a difference between working the diplomatic cycles to get things done and whipping up ethnic animosities to protect wanted criminals. Hee hee. What more can be said. Let me ( Wuod Gem) enjoy a glass of juice next to a picture of a beach, right here in Nairobi as the old system self-destructs  |
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 5, 2011 21:02:33 GMT 3
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Post by dola121945 on Apr 5, 2011 21:30:01 GMT 3
Na mambo bado, hawa wajamaa, watakiona cha mtema kuni, kulia kila wakati eti ... we will go to the Hague because we have nothing to hide and then when we get back, we'll send off the real culprits on the next planes... this is just the tip of the Ice berg. As Atwoli said, Hague sio mchezo, they were warned, they will see efficiency and justice met to them just as they had requested. It is interesting reading from the nation report especially 'In a ruling on Monday, the ICC judges also rejected a request by Kenya that the Chamber convenes a status conference involving all parties to discuss the Kenyan application. Instead, the ICC judges have requested the Prosecutor, the Defence and Victims to make written submissions on the Kenyan government application before April 28 at 4pm.
“In response, the Chamber, being keen to expedite the proceedings and avoid any unnecessary delay, deems it sufficient to confine the engagement of the parties in the article 19 proceedings to providing written observations as dictated by rules 58(3) and 59(3) of the Rules. Accordingly, the Chamber considers that the Government’s Second Request should be rejected,” the judges said.'
They can clearly see the delay tactics being employed by the said government of Kenya. This part was also interesting, Moreover, the fact that the Government of Kenya is a party to the article 19 proceedings does not mean per se that it is a party to the criminal proceedings against the suspects, which would allow its participation during the initial appearance hearing,” said the judges.The goverment seems to be treating itself as a suspect, while clearly the suspects have been named. There must be something else rather sinister for them to be so into protecting some of the O-6. let the games begin ... tick tock...one more day! |
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 5, 2011 22:37:18 GMT 3
Hehehehehehe. Here is Gado. He can be brutal but of course the truth is always brutal. |
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Post by tnk on Apr 5, 2011 22:38:47 GMT 3
adongo quite right its breathtaking efficiency, quite refreshing here is the document if you have seen it yet - man that single judge is definitely on top of the game. basically they are being told to leave at the door their politics (ya pesa nane) and delaying tactics (remember uhuru in that interview with Juli?? (sp) talks about the "ICC politics" sheeeshh www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1050886.pdfmeanwhile here is another one that might have been under the radar the decision on the petition by muthaura, uhuru for prosecutor to change wording on the summons as to who the defence can contact or not www.icc-cpi.int/iccdocs/doc/doc1050804.pdf== a) decides to retain condition (i) as set out in the 8 March 2011 Decision while ordering the Defence and the VWU to comply with the modalities to be observed and as set out in part II of this decision; b) orders that any difficulties in the implementation of this decision shall be brought immediately to the attention of the Single Judge; c) rejects the request of the Defence dated 1 April 2011 to reply to the Prosecutor's Response == |
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 6, 2011 0:09:19 GMT 3
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Post by tnk on Apr 6, 2011 0:20:39 GMT 3
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Apr 6, 2011 0:32:05 GMT 3
I am not surprised that the Moi-Raila media is conniving to spread such naked lies. This was only a pre-condition for Sang to qualify for the legal assistance he had applied for. How that can be turned on its head to mean all the six is beyond any basic understanding. But what else can one expect from Raila propaganda? They will try very hard, but this one is really beyond them. |
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Post by politicalmaniac on Apr 6, 2011 0:39:02 GMT 3
Can we begin to breakdown who is who in this article? |
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 6, 2011 2:18:32 GMT 3
I am not surprised that the Moi-Raila media is conniving to spread such naked lies. This was only a pre-condition for Sang to qualify for the legal assistance he had applied for. How that can be turned on its head to mean all the six is beyond any basic understanding. But what else can one expect from Raila propaganda? They will try very hard, but this one is really beyond them. mwalimumkuu Stop embarrassing yourself, please. Read the ICC rules about freezing of assets and how and when it is done. If you can't get the info, let me know. I can download them for you. This is serious business. The chokora politics of crying Raila 24/7 is not viable here. Read the procedures and tell us if Raila wrote them too. |
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Post by merkeju on Apr 6, 2011 3:15:00 GMT 3
Raila this way, Raila that way, this can be a good song for Uhuru and company.
All their problems, its Raila
please enough is enough.
Yeah, now Uhuru and Ruto might be popular as they go to Hague, their supporters will jam the airport, but for how long?, will they be there every time they go to Hague and come back?, which will be more than one time, i don't think so, curiosity will cease and people will get tired of their excuses then their true skins will be seen.
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Post by mwalimumkuu on Apr 6, 2011 4:58:39 GMT 3
I am not surprised that the Moi-Raila media is conniving to spread such naked lies. This was only a pre-condition for Sang to qualify for the legal assistance he had applied for. How that can be turned on its head to mean all the six is beyond any basic understanding. But what else can one expect from Raila propaganda? They will try very hard, but this one is really beyond them. mwalimumkuu Stop embarrassing yourself, please. Read the ICC rules about freezing of assets and how and when it is done. If you can't get the info, let me know. I can download them for you. This is serious business. The chokora politics of crying Raila 24/7 is not viable here. Read the procedures and tell us if Raila wrote them too. No, my friend, there is no embarassment at Jukwaa because it is a learning forum, and I am more than happy to learn day-in day-out. So I oblige give the downloads and show the links that indicate that Ocampo 6 have been ordered to declare their wealth. |
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 6, 2011 20:05:50 GMT 3
These ICC judges are something else. They are ruthlessly efficient. No jokes, no bull. I think whichever side wins or loses they will have to accept the verdict. Interesting that even the dissenting judge is on board on this preliminary ruling. There is this sad history I want to share with you, as to why the International court does not take Africans seriously. It is called ICTR, International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. In ten years they handled 20 procedures only, at a cost of 600 million Euros. Every trick known was used to delay [increasing employment and pay]. Proceedings were done severally without translators, rendering them null and void, and to be repeated. Then translators were hired into the wrong language! and only discovered a year later! Files dissappeared, clerical officers disappeared with keys! Professionals with premium on their time abandoned the court, mediocrity reigned, nepotism reigned. Your fellow canadian, the judge Louise Arbour, having caught a senegalese or some french-speaking west african junior judge sleeping several times, couldn't take it anymore and blew up! The africans ganged up against him, calling him a cheap racist! he quit in disgust. An internal UN audit of the court intimates Africa lacks also the intellectual infrastructure for such a court! I nearly fainted when I heard this --I was in Burundi then. The ruthless efficiency is also based on economics. They do not have an endless source of cash to pay employees at the Hague. -------- When Milosevic of Serbia wanted to take years speaking at the court. The judge had the audacity to inform him: justice also has a price in real dollars. Nobody will pay me forever to listen to you forever! So shut up! I wonder whether that is a miscarriage of justice! I am told Holland is very organised, and they Kenyans will find out that even going to the toilet is timed and controlled! Urinating 7 minutes for men, shitting, 15 minutes! |
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 6, 2011 20:21:57 GMT 3
One beef I have to cut with Miguna is this:
Internationally, dealing with other governments or International institutions like the World Bank or UN, there is only recognition of the Kenya government position. The fine points of deferal contra referal with respect to ODM vs PNU, is one holy mess to them. So ODM merely bolts the stable-door, after the horse has galloped off. I mean the position Kalonzo articulated in his wanderings abroad, is the Kenyan position.
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Post by job on Apr 6, 2011 20:47:15 GMT 3
One beef I have to cut with Miguna is this:
Internationally, dealing with other governments or International institutions like the World Bank or UN, there is only recognition of the Kenya government position. The fine points of deferal contra referal with respect to ODM vs PNU, is one holy mess to them. So ODM merely bolts the stable-door, after the horse has galloped off. I mean the position Kalonzo articulated in his wanderings abroad, is the Kenyan position. [/b][/i][/quote] The fundamental question that will surely be asked at the UN Security Council consultation on Friday will be - what is Kenya's official position? Security member states have a right to critically examine that question from their own respective perspectives, but one suchmember - the US - has already asserted its recognition that Kenya's is a coalition government (with NARA embedded in the constitution), and as such, any protest by a coalition partner will be considered, an official protest. Check at time 2:45 minutes. Thus, on the debate menu, will be served both, a Kenya position, and an official protest position....that makes good fodder for the UN Security council members to chew on. |
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Post by tnk on Apr 6, 2011 20:48:31 GMT 3
One beef I have to cut with Miguna is this: Internationally, dealing with other governments or International institutions like the World Bank or UN, there is only recognition of the Kenya government position. The fine points of deferal contra referal with respect to ODM vs PNU, is one holy mess to them. So ODM merely bolts the stable-door, after the horse has galloped off. I mean the position Kalonzo articulated in his wanderings abroad, is the Kenyan position.maybe not == Trade minister Chirau Ali Mwakwere is said to have blamed the PM for what he described as an embarrassing moment he had endured during a meeting between a government delegation and the United Nations Security Council members. During the meetings to discuss Kenya’s request to have cases facing the Ocampo Six deferred, some Council members had demanded to know which wing of the government they represented. == www.nation.co.ke/News/politics/Michuki+fires+the+first+salvo+as+differences+mar+Cabinet+talks+/-/1064/1139634/-/86oxc2/-/index.html |
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 6, 2011 22:29:02 GMT 3
JOB & TNK,
Thanx alot. But this is news to me in international law! The implication is that, before a Kenyan official signs any external trade or economic aggreement purporting to be fully mandated, the other party must first authenticate concurrence between the two coalitional bedmates! Lest he be swindled: in a dispute, the attorney general could later argue that he only dealt with one wing, as such the whole government and the people are not legally bound!
This means alot of official business is in enertia now, as others try to figure things out! When it comes to financial dealings transacted by the ministry [like negotiating loans internationally] it means there is a special section of small print, making sure it is Kenya who shall carry the can, should the internal political wrangling lead to a debacle.
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 6, 2011 23:06:11 GMT 3
JOB & TNK, Thanx alot. But this is news to me in international law! The implication is that, before a Kenyan official signs any external trade or economic aggreement purporting to be fully mandated, the other party must first authenticate concurrence between the two coalitional bedmates! Lest he be swindled: in a dispute, the attorney general could later argue that he only dealt with one wing, as such the whole government and the people are not legally bound! This means alot of official business is in enertia now, as others try to figure things out! When it comes to financial dealings transacted by the ministry [like negotiating loans internationally] it means there is a special section of small print, making sure it is Kenya who shall carry the can, should the internal political wrangling lead to a debacle. You are just mixing apples and oranges, I don't know for what purpose. Kenya is not going to the UNSC members to sign a trade deal. They are going there to convince the community of nations that as a country they are committed to solving the PEV problem and they have the capacity to do so. To do that they need to show they are a united country, a united government working towards one purpose. This is not rocket science. It is foolish for the Kibaki chaps to play " we are the government" card and try to impose their "better thief" philosophy on member states of the UNSC and more so through the desperate lies of Kenya's rep to the UN Mr. Kamau. It is wiser and more sensible for the Kibaki chaps who are the ones trying to promote impunity by getting a deferral to stop the chest thumping bullshit of "Kalonzo's position is the government position". That can work in Kenyan rallies but it is sure to fail in the arena of international diplomacy. It just won't work. |
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Post by jakaswanga on Apr 7, 2011 19:15:20 GMT 3
Adongo,
The issue of a cabinet minister on official duty in a foreign country or before and international body being asked to specify his coalitional loyalties intrigues me! As to mixing fruits: if members of the UNSC do it, why wouldn't a body like the World Bank or IMF do it? That is a deductive posibility by logic, and that is why I say by implication.
Then this: if we ascertain by Mwakwere's alleged humiliation, and the US ambassador's quips, that the Kalonzo position was not the government position afterall, then I think the legal question must be raised in Kenya, as to the legality of the PNU wing using massive tax-payers money to further a parochial party cause.
For Kalonzo's lobbying was obviously a PNU affair and not a state affair.
But I have already seen that in the last cabinet meeting, Kalonzo told Raila, that Raila stabbed him in the back, since he Raila had agreed to the purpose of the lobbying! SOMEBODY IS LYING BIG, AM YET TO FIGURE OUT WHO IT IS!
Maybe you can ask your friend Miguna to advice the PM to ask PNU to refund the 32 million Kalonzo blew away on his private trips! If it was not a cabinet thing, it looks a straigtfoward case of embezzlement to me!
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Post by adongo23456 on Apr 7, 2011 21:36:43 GMT 3
jakaswanga
First of all, Mwakwere should not be complaining to the PM about being humiliated in New York by UNSC member states, he should be complaining to the idiots who sent him there in the first place.
There is nothing to ascertain. We all know the deferral joke was a Kibaki business working in cahoots with the suspects. The nonsensical claim by Kalonzo that the PM agreed to this or that is just the usual crybaby from Kalonzo. Raila spoke publicly many times about the futility of the deferral and distanced himself from it many times. One hopes Kalonzo at least had a little time between meeting African dictators to read newspapers. This is not some big secret we are going to unearth somewhere.
As for Kibaki robbing tax payer money to support suspected mass killers, I don't think it is just the business of the PM to ask Kibaki to refund the money. It is the business of all Kenyans and I am pretty sure that this money thing will come back to haunt Kibaki and his band of 40 thieves. At some point Kenyans are going to question why their money is being squandered on defending people accused of committing terrible crimes against Kenyans.
The embezzlement claim is interesting. Given that the new constitution allows private citizens to sue if they feel violated by the government don't be surprised if at some time this matter ends up in court. We know for a fact that the thieves cannot provide any cabinet minutes authorizing any of these activities and the use of tax payer money to fund them. Stay tuned my friend.
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Post by mzee on Apr 7, 2011 23:32:11 GMT 3
AO, don't worry about the PANU nonsense. These guys keep blaming Raila for everything as if that would solve their problems. They keep doing foolish stuff and hoping to actually succeed. How many times did we tell them that they would fail with shuttle diplomacy. They did not listen, now that they have failed its Railas mistake.
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Post by mzee on Apr 7, 2011 23:32:58 GMT 3
AO, don't worry about the PANU nonsense. These guys keep blaming Raila for everything as if that would solve their problems. They keep doing foolish stuff and hoping to actually succeed. How many times did we tell them that they would fail with shuttle diplomacy. They did not listen, now that they have failed its Railas mistake.
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