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Post by adongo23456 on Nov 25, 2011 18:26:32 GMT 3
adongo and all, i may not have been attentive but kindly remind me of the variant of islam that is in somalia. are they shia or sunii and does it matter in the first place on the as say it this affinity informs the ideology,outlook and dispositions of the saudis and iranians regimes? i ask so because i have been of the view that the long term solution to the somalia problem is rooted in its religious identity to the extent that it can be used as unifying force to railroad the disparate groupings into a progressive national force. again all this depends on the variant of islam and its application to the national life. the flip side of this is opening up the somalia society to a secular, capitalist state may be in the mould of new iraq or what libya is likely to turn out.this would mean not just the bibles that kenyans and allied troops are distributing alongside qurans and relief maize but also iconic capitalist enterprises like coke and macdonald. i would therefore be interested to see how you handle the place of civil society in this discourse for a new somalia. i know that the place of the social media like facebook, youtube and twitter which opens up the society into the new frontiers is an interesting component for the anticipated new somalia. but again, wont the deeply entrenched religious identity stand on the way? my pesa nane. nereah,For the most part Somalia has been a secular state starting from 1960 when Somaliland then British Somalia and Somalia the Italian Somalia held a referendum to merge as one country. They formed the Republic of Somalia as a secular state whose population was almost all Muslim. Siad Barre with all his madness maintained and helped to advance the secular nature of the Somali state. The Islamic culture has always thrived in Somalia but at no time did they even contemplate theocracy as a form of government until the rise of the Islamic Courts at the beginning of of 2000's. Before then Siad Barre had some problems with Muslim Sheikhs and scholars who cautioned him against embracing communism which they argued does not mix with religion in the late 1970's. Siad Barre foolishly ordered the public execution of 8 Muslim Scholars to frighten religious leaders. It was a terrible blunder by Siad Barre but soon the whole country was consumed with the war with Ethiopia. The Islamic Courts then became the first institution to try to bring theocracy including Sharia law etc into the public life of Somali people. In reality the Islamic Courts led by Hassan Dahir Aweys (now the leader of Al Shabaab) and Sheikh Sharif (present president of TFG) came to power because Somalis were fed up with warlords. They rallied around the Islamic Courts not so much because of their religious agenda but because they had the capacity to dismantle the warlords which they did in a very short time. (Check Part I of the story at the beginning of this thread for details) Essentially Somalis like their secular system of government but as we have seen in many parts of the world, in chaos and myhem, people turn to religion for shelter and that is what the Islamic Courts and now Al Shabaab have tried to exploit in Somalia. The good news is that the religious extremists have done more harm to the Somali people than anybody else. Killing kids lining up to check the school results is unfathomable for Somalis. Bombing kids and parents in a graduation events and stoning "sinners" to death in gruesome public events all have turned most Somalis against any theocratic form of government. The issue is that Somalia is still a deeply religious society and the one thing they rally around is when they think that identity is under threat from foreigners be they Ethiopians, the US or Kenyans. So they way forward must involve never trying to undermine or antogonize the religious character and sensitivities of the Somali society while creating room for a democratic form of government. The Somali folk I talk to hate the notion of leaders being imposed on them. That is the problem they have with the TFG and many of those other "governments". Romove Al shabaab, bring leaders and communities together and this time let them choose their leaders and sort their problems inside Somalia. No more free pass at 680 hotel for endless chair tosing. Resolve the issues inside the country. The people are there and they are tired of endless chaos. If the Somalis see an opening for peace they are going to grab it. Let's not screw it up this time.
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Post by nereah on Nov 25, 2011 19:20:26 GMT 3
Genius; I tried to investigate this problem by talking to a Muslim scholar. He told me that the Quran teaches conservatism among Muslims and especially women whose bodies must not be exposed. He said that there are no buts or ifs. It is haram for Muslim woman to expose her body except to specific people: Husband, father, brother.... He walked me through Shariah law and even forced me to write quotes from the Quran and Hadith. I think he plans to convert me . Anyway, it is clear that women cannot expose any body part except face and hands. For men it is from the navel (around the belly button) down to the knees. See through clothing and 'tights' are also not allowed. Medical situations are exempted. The theology is dense but it basically derives from the initial problem in the garden of Eden where man and woman (Adam and Eve) discovered shame after Satan lied to them. This has also been a big debate in many countries, for example, over the hijab in public schools. So it is not really an issue of 'patriarchy' as some people are wont to see it. It is more an issue of religion. Unless our resident feminists want to declare that the religion is patriarchal. So you are more likely to see this if you hope to see Somali women on the beach: The scholar also told me that the issue of women Muslim and their beachwear has spawned the design of specific beach attire suitable for women but there is a lot of debate around that. It is called "burqini'. He said that the swimwear is still very revealing and many religious leaders still do not accept it! Muslim ladies running on the beach... Some Islamic teachers still find this too revealing A family having fun in the pool... check out the lady in black So I was quite perplexed at this point and asked him: So what can Muslim women do to enjoy swimming?1. They should only swim in women only pools and even then conservatively. Beach areas that are shielded should be set aside. Or specific days for women to swim. 2. Children should be taught how to swim at an early age but even then must be dressed conservatively in order to avoid them getting used to exposure or nudity. 3. Women should swim in the company of their husbands and close relatives in private pools. rr, i hope you are in nairobi and heading to carnivore for the ramogi night. the delicacies.. aluru, aliya, kuon bel, mito, dek akeyo and my favourite omena are in plenty. now, read your piece and just wondering.aren't there muslim female athletes for international events like olympics? what is their dressing codes? on another note, what is this talk i am hearing in nairobi that eastleigh economy is headed for a huge slump following the war in somalia that is literally choking it of vital supplies including..eer.. the contrabands. those who claim to know whispers that if the war goes on for another three months and the crucial liboi and mogadishu ports are cut of, then nairobi economy is headed for a burst. do you believe this? adongo, job, whats your take on this?
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Nov 25, 2011 22:07:55 GMT 3
People must stop forthwith these condescending and patronising attitude towards Muslims and Islam. I am getting fed up with the useless, baseless and false explanation and description of Muslims depicting them as characters for a different planet! Muslims are not aliens.
Further, Muslims don't need your advice and approval in their lives. Time has come they are left alone. Let them be. What has their life to do with you?
If you want issues to discuss, how about the Aids raven Luo Nyanza - I wonder what those Aids victims wear when they go swimming in Lake Victoria?
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Post by adongo23456 on Nov 25, 2011 22:38:15 GMT 3
People must stop forthwith these condescending and patronising attitude towards Muslims and Islam. I am getting fed up with the useless, baseless and false explanation and description of Muslims depicting them as characters for a different planet! Muslims are not aliens. Further, Muslims don't need your advice and approval in their lives. Time has come they are left alone. Let them be. What has their life to do with you? If you want issues to discuss, how about the Aids raven Luo Nyanza - I wonder what those Aids victims wear when they go swimming in Lake Victoria? Wacha ujinga mzee and grow up. You are a parent for crying out loud. How long will you stay stuck in the mediaval ages? People are having a very mature discussion about the situation in Somalia and all you can see are imaginery condescending stuff. If you are too ignorant to offer anything in this discussion go swim with your hijab and see if we care. We don't need your Taliban porojos. Bure kabisa. By the way the story of Somali folks taking back their beaches started right here. Furaha,A few things are interesting from the NYT story you have posted. It concurs with the ideas we have been concerned about, namely that managing peace has been harder than managing war in Somalia since 1991. It seems every time an opportunity presented itself for peaceful and democratic solutions even worse wars broke out and it has gone on to this day. The NYT article talks about the break down as late as September this year. It could be worse if the present situation is not managed properly. Secondly the evolution of tribes and clans as the centres of political power and armed conflict may look like it has been part of Somali political culture for eternity but in reality as my piece pointed out and partly explained by Wasrah's piece, tribal and clan identity merged with politics in Somalia only after communities faced chaos and threats. People took cover in their tribes and clans as they faced Siad Barre's ruthless wars and given what has followed that shift has taken a life of its own. Now it is a big problem but it still can be solved. Strangely enough Al Shabaab and the Islamic Courts before them are proof positive that faced with a common enemy and infused with a common agenda, Somalis are very capable of coming together across tribes and clans. The Islamic courts united clans and tribes to fight the warlords and succeeded. Al Shabaab too as horrible as their agenda is have no tribe. Uniting against Al Shabaab is something that can bring many Somalis together. I saw pictures of Somali youth pouring into the beaches of Mogadishu for the first time in three years safe in the knowledge that there will be no Al Shabaab bombs dropping on their heads. I am sure those kids come from different tribes and clans but they are all having a great time. That Somali is possible and it is within reach. Most of these young people have been born in the captivity of endless wars. Give them a future and they will change Somalia forever and for the better. They know what it means to live in captivity. Somali Youth Pour Into The Beaches Of Mogadishu For The First Time In Three Years. Finally the one issue that has been raised many times is that peaceful process about Somali often collapse because they are cooked outside and then forced fed to the Somali. I have a suggestion. Once things settle down why can't the key players try a new strategy. Hold Somali peace talks and processes in Somalia. For example in the South let Prof. Gandhi, Madobe etc and their friends and even foes sort their issues in the South and work with the TFG as partners for peace. Let Somali local leaders and delegates make these decisions and choose their interim leaders right inside their country and let them mop up with TFG and form a credible respected national authority that can move the country foward. Last but not least. I am confused about Kenya either having joint operations with AMISOM or other reports of Kenya and Ethiopia joining AMISOM to fight Al Shabaab as this stories suggest: www.standardmedia.co.ke/InsidePage.php?id=2000047130&cid=4&ttl=US%20supports%20Kenya,%20Ethiopia%20joining%20Amisom%20forces www.nation.co.ke/News/Kenya+and+Amisom+plan+joint+onslaught++/-/1056/1277658/-/d2tmo1z/-/index.htmlDoes this mean they are going to change the mandate of AMISOM to become a fighting force with war planes and everything. That makes very little sense. AMISOM has a very specific mandate. It cannot be changed on the fly. But we will see. Somali Youth Pour Into The Beaches Of Mogadishu For The First Time In Three Years. Read more: jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=recent#ixzz1eV0Jk3xNAdongoIt isn't Somali Youth, it is Somali male youth. Did you notice that? Just a thought. So people are free to give their views and you can keep your neanderthal nonsense to yourself. sawa? Now go swim and we will continue the discussion.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Nov 25, 2011 22:55:07 GMT 3
See I have touched a raw nerve. I will continue to hit hard, until people treat others with due respect, civility and dignity. You start fcuking about, I can assure you I know how to do that, too.
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Post by adongo23456 on Nov 25, 2011 23:18:12 GMT 3
See I have touched a raw nerve. I will continue to hit hard, until people treat others with due respect, civility and dignity. You start fcuking about, I can assure you I know how to do that, too. hehehehehehe. I told you to go swim in your hijab and let adults have some discussions. And now you think you have presented the argument of the century. Goodness me. Things can't be this bad for you. I mean some people are genuinely stupid and I accept that as a disability but it is no reason to come to issues you do not have anything to offer. We have a serious debate here my friend and so far you seem completely clueless. Waste of time.
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Post by mzee on Nov 25, 2011 23:53:20 GMT 3
Somalia has obviously many problems as Adongo has already mentioned. But I think that what triggered the current chaos was perhaps the end of the cold war. Siad Barre even though fairly popular in the begging turned into a brutal dictator years, even so the country did not fall apart. The fall of the Berlin wall, also meant that the strategic importance of Somalia started diminishing. The west that was often blind and deaf to the human rights abuses in Somalia, when they were Somalias strategic friends started making all manner of human rights demands on Siad Barre. Barre fearing the he would be ousted responded by entrenching himself further into power by using his clan and relatives. Donors counter reacted by freezing aid to Somalia. This speeded up the collapse of the central government. I don�t want to blame the west, but in a big way, they contributed to the collapse of Somalia and must take lead in restoring the country. I also found this that was very interesting siteresources.worldbank.org/INTSOMALIA/Resources/conflictinsomalia.pdf
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Nov 25, 2011 23:55:15 GMT 3
What discussion? Do you even know what you are talking about half of the time? You confuse Somaliland, Somalia, Puntland despite being schooled by others. You cannot even report accurately what you are told. You are busy listen to your voice - eti advising Somalis, payukaring about which things you have no idea. For example, you did not know where Bossaso was until I painstakingly pointed out to you.
The strife in Somalia has defeated better minds in spite of best efforts by people well placed than you to offer such. Here you are - a bunch of confused Luos - yapping about Muslims and Islam and swimming which has no relevance what so ever to anything other than your putrid views.
I must leave you to your devices as you totter along.
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Post by adongo23456 on Nov 26, 2011 0:02:56 GMT 3
What discussion? Do you even know what you are talking about half of the time? You confuse Somaliland, Somalia, Puntland despite being schooled by others. You cannot even report accurately what you are told. You are busy listen to your voice - eti advising Somalis, payukaring about which things you have no idea. For example, you did not know where Bossaso was until I painstakingly pointed out to you. The strife in Somalia has defeated better minds in spite of best efforts by people well placed than you to offer such. Here you are - a bunch of confused Luos - yapping about Muslims and Islam and swimming which has no relevance what so ever to anything other than your putrid views. I must leave you to your devices as you totter along. Your pathetic attempt earlier on was laughed at by people who actually live in Somaliland. One of them is actually going there next week to do some work with the UNDP for a few months. This is a Prof. of Biology born in the town of Lesanod, Somaliland. Has taught in Somalia and written the Biology standard text books used in all of Somalia. We are actually involved in some very serious things here my friend. Take your street stuff to people who do not know any better. Listen Sadik, I know you are desperate to make sense and you feel bad that we have put you down rather badly and you are trying so hard but you are just too ignorant about the situation. I feel bad for you. I am a human being too and I do not like to humiliate people but in this case there is nothing I can do for you. So please, take your utoto somewhere else and stop bringing your desperate rants here. If you need a baby sitter I can help. But that is as far as my offer goes.
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Post by moesha on Nov 26, 2011 23:36:54 GMT 3
@adongo
Very interesting thread, I learned alot. Except for a few rather childish and for lack of a better word ignorant remarks from one Sadik, I must say Brilliant. Surely, what has this discussion got to do with Luo Nyanza and Aids? Must we always trivialize important issues to that level? Quite disturbing.
I hope you can write one on Kenya.
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Post by jakaswanga on Nov 27, 2011 12:30:36 GMT 3
@adongoVery interesting thread, I learned alot. Except for a few rather childish and for lack of a better word ignorant remarks from one Sadik, I must say Brilliant. Surely, what has this discussion got to do with Luo Nyanza and Aids? Must we always trivialize important issues to that level? Quite disturbing. I hope you can write one on Kenya. Sadik wrote: Here you are - a bunch of confused Luos - yapping about Muslims and Islam and swimming which has no relevance what so ever to anything other than your putrid views. Moesha, Glad the putrid fitina above about omena people has not rendered me chanceless with you! But still on a serious note there is a controversy worthy of contemplation between doctrinal Islam and swimming wear, especially of ladies. It has led to the development of a burqini, a kind of halal swimkit for ladies. [see photo above] Also when you are a boatman, like I used to be ocassionally on the lake, and you are transporting passengers when the lake is rough, you want people to dress in a way which makes swimming easy, or aiding them to swim easy should the boat capsize. In Kendu Bay there was always a hot argument with some muslim women there, as they boarded my boat in heavy wear. Of course I did not help matters by my putrid remarks to the tune of: I want to take a loot at your butts and find out if it will be worth risking my life saving it at high seas!
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Post by phil on Nov 28, 2011 10:12:47 GMT 3
@adongoVery interesting thread, I learned alot. Except for a few rather childish and for lack of a better word ignorant remarks from one Sadik, I must say Brilliant. Surely, what has this discussion got to do with Luo Nyanza and Aids? Must we always trivialize important issues to that level? Quite disturbing. I hope you can write one on Kenya. Welcome to the internet. While you appreciate Adongo's good work at Jukwaa, be prepared to accommodate tripe from sadistic ( pun intended), atrocious, barbaric, heartless, primitive, uncivilized, uncouth, uncultured so called warriors of Kenya.
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Post by mzee on Nov 28, 2011 10:40:55 GMT 3
The tribal lunatic is back and is trying/ hoping to derail this otherwise very informative thread. Please stop it.
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Post by nereah on Nov 28, 2011 14:01:35 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Nov 28, 2011 18:31:24 GMT 3
moesha & others,
This has been an interesting piece alright. Sadik tried to bring his usual inferiority problems but that is not new. To his credit Sadik always goes back to his cave once he finds out the earth is round. He is still waiting for it to be flat again. Poor thing.
The claim about stereotyping Somalis and Muslims is utter nonsense. Somalis and Muslims have read that thread many times and not a single one of them has raised any concerns. I don't care what some Somali or Muslim wannabe thinks or says.
Sadik's obsession with Luos and Aids is not new. He has done the same primitive talk a million times. I am stunned Oloo is still warning him about it. That is a waste of warning. I don't mind his primitive ideas because they say more about him than anybody else.
I had some good discussions with my Somali friends who visited me over the weekend and we had a good laugh at the poor fellow. I told them the price of free speech is to allow all sorts opinions however sick. So they understand. Some of them actually want to participate in Jukwaa discussions and I promised to talk with Oloo to allow a few more people in after being "vetted". I know people are tired of a few more makelele types but we can always find away to bring new people and new ideas otherwise we could be bored to death.
nereah that is an interesting piece from the DN.
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Post by moesha on Nov 29, 2011 1:42:37 GMT 3
@adongoVery interesting thread, I learned alot. Except for a few rather childish and for lack of a better word ignorant remarks from one Sadik, I must say Brilliant. Surely, what has this discussion got to do with Luo Nyanza and Aids? Must we always trivialize important issues to that level? Quite disturbing. I hope you can write one on Kenya. Sadik wrote: Here you are - a bunch of confused Luos - yapping about Muslims and Islam and swimming which has no relevance what so ever to anything other than your putrid views. Moesha, Glad the putrid fitina above about omena people has not rendered me chanceless with you! But still on a serious note there is a controversy worthy of contemplation between doctrinal Islam and swimming wear, especially of ladies. It has led to the development of a burqini, a kind of halal swimkit for ladies. [see photo above] Also when you are a boatman, like I used to be ocassionally on the lake, and you are transporting passengers when the lake is rough, you want people to dress in a way which makes swimming easy, or aiding them to swim easy should the boat capsize. In Kendu Bay there was always a hot argument with some muslim women there, as they boarded my boat in heavy wear. Of course I did not help matters by my putrid remarks to the tune of: I want to take a loot at your butts and find out if it will be worth risking my life saving it at high seas! JakaI dont know who "omena people" are, but for the sake of discussion.... the contoversy over Islam and their ladies swim wear is one worthy of debating without disrespecting each other's communities. I am a firm believer of religious freedoms as per our constitution, so who I am I to dictate ones attire, especially when its so deeply embedded into their religion. Isnt that what we have all been fighting so hard for. As for your passangers, I would advise them to avoid your boat at all costs. The mere fact that you are soo worried about capsizing is highly suspect of not having the necessary safety measures in place to guarantee a safe passage through the waters. I am suprised those women did not slap you upside your face for those remarks. In times of emergency you can swim in anything. The extra clothing can actually help keep you a float longer if you tire easily, and if all else fail just remove them mid stream.
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Post by jakaswanga on Nov 30, 2011 20:55:07 GMT 3
JakaI dont know who "omena people" are, but for the sake of discussion.... the contoversy over Islam and their ladies swim wear is one worthy of debating without disrespecting each other's communities. I am a firm believer of religious freedoms as per our constitution, so who I am I to dictate ones attire, especially when its so deeply embedded into their religion. Isnt that what we have all been fighting so hard for. As for your passangers, I would advise them to avoid your boat at all costs. The mere fact that you are soo worried about capsizing is highly suspect of not having the necessary safety measures in place to guarantee a safe passage through the waters. I am suprised those women did not slap you upside your face for those remarks. In times of emergency you can swim in anything. The extra clothing can actually help keep you a float longer if you tire easily, and if all else fail just remove them mid stream. Moesha,When it comes to boat safety, you have a point. But if you have used boats in the third world --like between islands in the philipines or Indonesia, or, closer to home, on the river Congo, then you ought to know they are usually suicide rides! [Some horrid videos available on youtube]. And when I am the last boat leaving KendU Bay for Mfangano and somebody has business which cannott wait, what options do they have? 3 years ago I convinced my Kalenjin staff-mate to take a look at Migingo in a motorised canoe. On the return journey someone had stolen a bit of our fuel [as we gaped at the latest turn of the female hip in response to crazy ahangla drums] and we stalled mid-lake. Due to shortage of oars, people were asked to paddle with their hands or legs! The man later told me with those kind of stupid risks taken everyday, he could understand why omena people make light talk of condoms and die wholesale of aids! Since then I have fitted our boat with some buoys! But the fishermen wont enter a boat with buoys! they say it brings bad luck, as if you think you are so clever you can cheat death! They say death is death, and when it comes, so be it! So I try the best to teach prevention is smart! A law enforcing boat safety like seatbelts in cars would be welcome I think! Give me Michuki the rattlesnake!
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Dec 1, 2011 11:48:15 GMT 3
On the thread about the threats on Miguna, Adongo lied, and was caught lying, when the following emails were posted at Jukwaa. It seems he knew the content of the emails and deliberately lied when commenting on whether the refusal to publish Miguna’s article by the Star had anything to do with Raila. From the emails, Raila pressured the Star in particular Pike from publishing Miguna’s article. Miguna has asked me to share some correspondence between him and the Star to provide context in the ongoing exchanges. I have decided to limit my excerpt to one exchange-a letter from Mr. Pike and Miguna's response.
From: William Pike <xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: Miguna Miguna <xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2011, 11:02 Subject: Go slow
Miguna
I think we should have a go-slow on the Prime Minister in your column until the dust settles.
There are two reasons for this:
a. Some people are saying that attacking Raila makes you look cheap. You were his adviser and supporter. You were suspended and then you turned against him. I understand where you are coming from but in the public eye it may appear different.
b. The PM is very upset about the KKV article which he says was unfair because it did not refer to his explanations of what happened. He says it was not balanced. I am worried that this thing can snowball and run out of control, and hurt us all.
So let's lay off Raila in the column for a while.
William
From: Miguna Miguna <xxxxxxxxxxx> To: William Pike <xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2011, 18:12 Subject: Re: Go slow
Oh William, I forgot this:
Raila is the Prime Minister of Kenya. That's a public office. He gets paid tons of our money to protect public interests. Therefore, anything Raila does - if he gets sick, stays too long in the toilet, drinks too much, sleeps in public (like he does too much), etc - becomes news and of public interest. You cannot, in good conscience and ethically ask me to go slow on Raila, unless you and the entire Star team has been compromised. Journalistic ethics does not allow you to be concerned about Raila's happiness. Why should Raila be happy with me or the Star? And why should I go slow on him merely because he is unhappy?
This is astonishing. Even the mere fact that you could write this to me is astounding. Think about it. Are you really "fresh, independent and different?" How?
Let's be honest with the people of Kenya for a change.
Phew!
Miguna
It is clear now that actually Pike took the decision to refuse the publication of an article from Miguna because of pressure from Raila, that the PM was upset and Pike feared the consequence of upsetting the PM. Pike says PM did not like it and made Pike know of his dislike. Lying Adongo did not tell us the whole truth about his email little conversation with Miguna. He can’t fool people like that. Shamefully, for him I picked up the deceit and highlighted in my post under Miguna’s threat. Adongo, had written, I didn't go crying that Mr. Pike had refused to publish my article. Secondly, Miguna himself sent me an-email which was a copy of what he sent Mr. Pike. I mentioned that. So while you are venting your bile with mere speculations, adongo ogony actually is in touch with these people. I have the privillege of a whole lot more information than you can have. I have stated my position on the matter very clearly. Mr. Pike published a story from Onyango Oloo on the exact same topic with the exact same position. Why didn't Raila stop that? The same star published another by a Mr. Osman on the same subject form the same perspective. Why didn't Mr. Pike stop that. Miguna himself does not know why Mr. Pike stopped publishing his letter but he is free to speculate just as we are free to question such speculations. Now, it is clear that is not true, far from it, Miguna knew why his article was not published - the reason being the PM was 'upset' - because Pike told him so, and therefore Adongo lied when he wrote the quoted piece above. Shamefully Pike cowed under pressure when he was made aware of the upset, which necessitated the refusal to publish. In other words, Pike was 'pressured' not to publish. Miguna in his rebuttal email questions Pike's independency - quite rightly. This is why Adongo is mad with me, for highlighting his lies. He was caught lying and his lies exposed – making him clearly a liar. If he can lie like that about his friend, Miguna, someone he knew for donkeys years, what credibility does he now have? On a related matter about the condescending treatment of the Somalis by some posters, my positions seems to attract 'hounds' to maul me. The likes of phil, mzee, and others have reared their ugly behind. I was expecting the 'hounds' to come in running, and as usual they don't surprise in their stance! It is important you understand why I said what I said before shooting from the hip, but will be asking too much from these hooligan crowds. No one, be they Somalis fighting among themselves, has to be ridiculed, more so, their religion be mocked. I shall say that whatever it takes, and how ever many times pathetic people need to understand. I'm not in anyway against people discussing maturely issues around Somalia, including their religion - which I share with them. I learn as many do from others on the complex issues involved in Somalia. But, I find it distasteful to malign them simply because people don't understand nor know their viewpoints. I'm concerned that matters of religion seem to be turned into laughable jokes. That, I refuse to accept. So, pathetic hounds can circle as much as they like - I stand my grounds and will not fudge nor compromise. When I raise issues about themselves or their communities, which the same people find distasteful, they are quick to raise hell, but are very busy doing the same to others without flinching an eyelid. It shows the shame and retrogressiveness of their mindsets. That I stand to correct and bring to fore without fear. Rest assured.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Dec 1, 2011 11:52:31 GMT 3
moesha & others,I had some good discussions with my Somali friends who visited me over the weekend and we had a good laugh at the poor fellow. I told them the price of free speech is to allow all sorts opinions however sick. So they understand. Some of them actually want to participate in Jukwaa discussions and I promised to talk with Oloo to allow a few more people in after being "vetted". I know people are tired of a few more makelele types but we can always find away to bring new people and new ideas otherwise we could be bored to death. So it is now fine to disparage others and ridicule their religion because a few of them had tea with you and laughed with you. Would that be the case were a racist whiteman having being racist stated that he had 'black' friends? Does 'having tea with them' obliterate, or even mitigate the heinous prejudices shown I found the excuses given as a cheap innuendoes of an exposed liar, a person with zero credibility/intergrity, simply quite pathetic!
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Post by roughrider on Dec 1, 2011 15:12:38 GMT 3
On the thread about the threats on Miguna, Adongo lied, and was caught lying, when the following emails were posted at Jukwaa. It seems he knew the content of the emails and deliberately lied when commenting on whether the refusal to publish Miguna’s article by the Star had anything to do with Raila. From the emails, Raila pressured the Star in particular Pike from publishing Miguna’s article. Miguna has asked me to share some correspondence between him and the Star to provide context in the ongoing exchanges. I have decided to limit my excerpt to one exchange-a letter from Mr. Pike and Miguna's response.
From: William Pike <xxxxxxxxxxxx> To: Miguna Miguna <xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2011, 11:02 Subject: Go slow
Miguna
I think we should have a go-slow on the Prime Minister in your column until the dust settles.
There are two reasons for this:
a. Some people are saying that attacking Raila makes you look cheap. You were his adviser and supporter. You were suspended and then you turned against him. I understand where you are coming from but in the public eye it may appear different.
b. The PM is very upset about the KKV article which he says was unfair because it did not refer to his explanations of what happened. He says it was not balanced. I am worried that this thing can snowball and run out of control, and hurt us all.
So let's lay off Raila in the column for a while.
William
From: Miguna Miguna <xxxxxxxxxxx> To: William Pike <xxxxxxxxxxxx> Sent: Thursday, 10 November 2011, 18:12 Subject: Re: Go slow
Oh William, I forgot this:
Raila is the Prime Minister of Kenya. That's a public office. He gets paid tons of our money to protect public interests. Therefore, anything Raila does - if he gets sick, stays too long in the toilet, drinks too much, sleeps in public (like he does too much), etc - becomes news and of public interest. You cannot, in good conscience and ethically ask me to go slow on Raila, unless you and the entire Star team has been compromised. Journalistic ethics does not allow you to be concerned about Raila's happiness. Why should Raila be happy with me or the Star? And why should I go slow on him merely because he is unhappy?
This is astonishing. Even the mere fact that you could write this to me is astounding. Think about it. Are you really "fresh, independent and different?" How?
Let's be honest with the people of Kenya for a change.
Phew!
Miguna
It is clear now that actually Pike took the decision to refuse the publication of an article from Miguna because of pressure from Raila, that the PM was upset and Pike feared the consequence of upsetting the PM. Pike says PM did not like it and made Pike know of his dislike. Lying Adongo did not tell us the whole truth about his email little conversation with Miguna. He can’t fool people like that. Shamefully, for him I picked up the deceit and highlighted in my post under Miguna’s threat. Adongo, had written, I didn't go crying that Mr. Pike had refused to publish my article. Secondly, Miguna himself sent me an-email which was a copy of what he sent Mr. Pike. I mentioned that. So while you are venting your bile with mere speculations, adongo ogony actually is in touch with these people. I have the privillege of a whole lot more information than you can have. I have stated my position on the matter very clearly. Mr. Pike published a story from Onyango Oloo on the exact same topic with the exact same position. Why didn't Raila stop that? The same star published another by a Mr. Osman on the same subject form the same perspective. Why didn't Mr. Pike stop that. Miguna himself does not know why Mr. Pike stopped publishing his letter but he is free to speculate just as we are free to question such speculations. Now, it is clear that is not true, far from it, Miguna knew why his article was not published - the reason being the PM was 'upset' - because Pike told him so, and therefore Adongo lied when he wrote the quoted piece above. Shamefully Pike cowed under pressure when he was made aware of the upset, which necessitated the refusal to publish. In other words, Pike was 'pressured' not to publish. Miguna in his rebuttal email questions Pike's independency - quite rightly. This is why Adongo is mad with me, for highlighting his lies. He was caught lying and his lies exposed – making him clearly a liar. If he can lie like that about his friend, Miguna, someone he knew for donkeys years, what credibility does he now have? On a related matter about the condescending treatment of the Somalis by some posters, my positions seems to attract 'hounds' to maul me. The likes of phil, mzee, and others have reared their ugly behind. I was expecting the 'hounds' to come in running, and as usual they don't surprise in their stance! It is important you understand why I said what I said before shooting from the hip, but will be asking too much from these hooligan crowds. No one, be they Somalis fighting among themselves, has to be ridiculed, more so, their religion be mocked. I shall say that whatever it takes, and how ever many times pathetic people need to understand. I'm not in anyway against people discussing maturely issues around Somalia, including their religion - which I share with them. I learn as many do from others on the complex issues involved in Somalia. But, I find it distasteful to malign them simply because people don't understand nor know their viewpoints. I'm concerned that matters of religion seem to be turned into laughable jokes. That, I refuse to accept. So, pathetic hounds can circle as much as they like - I stand my grounds and will not fudge nor compromise. When I raise issues about themselves or their communities, which the same people find distasteful, they are quick to raise hell, but are very busy doing the same to others without flinching an eyelid. It shows the shame and retrogressiveness of their mindsets. That I stand to correct and bring to fore without fear. Rest assured. Are you trying to derail this thread? Your lengthy response would have been better placed in the 'Miguna thread'. But even then, from those messages it is clear Adongo was right. Please re-read the emails, more carefully. Raila complained about an 'unbalanced article', just like we all did. That is about ethics of journalism. He did NOT ask Mr. Pike to cut off Miguna. If Mr. Pike did, it was for his own reasons. I can only speculate that Miguna was cut off because of the rudeness and gross insubordination that is clear in his writing to Mr. Pike. You do not go about writing to the editor of a newspaper that has provided you with visibility in the way Miguna did: it was almost as if he has a right to be published in The Star! Again, I will request that in any responses you make particularly, Sadik, that you desist from insults. They are not helpful. Let us stick to debate, reason and logic.
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Post by roughrider on Dec 1, 2011 15:25:39 GMT 3
moesha & others,I had some good discussions with my Somali friends who visited me over the weekend and we had a good laugh at the poor fellow. I told them the price of free speech is to allow all sorts opinions however sick. So they understand. Some of them actually want to participate in Jukwaa discussions and I promised to talk with Oloo to allow a few more people in after being "vetted". I know people are tired of a few more makelele types but we can always find away to bring new people and new ideas otherwise we could be bored to death. So it is now fine to disparage others and ridicule their religion because a few of them had tea with you and laughed with you. Would that be the case were a racist whiteman having being racist stated that he had 'black' friends? Does 'having tea with them' obliterate, or even mitigate the heinous prejudices shown I found the excuses given as a cheap innuendoes of an exposed liar, a person with zero credibility/intergrity, simply quite pathetic! Sadik; Nobody here disparaged Muslims. The debate followed a natural pattern given that pictures of liberated male Somali youth enjoying beaches were shared. I think Kathure opined that patriarchy was responsible for that gender disparity. Where were the girls, she asked? I was quite concerned. My research showed that there were legitimate issues around conservative religious teaching and swimwear. I shared this. I believe I did this with utmost respect. Where and how have we shown any disrespect? It seems that for many people all it takes is to level accusations and we are supposed to assume they are true. How can we discuss sensitive cultural matters in a respectful way without being branded anti-this or anti-that. I think it helps to let the matter rest and return to the broader and more important issue here! PS: I believe I have not insulted you, Sadik, so I request, with loads of respect that you avoid using insulting language on me or generally any further, here or elsewhere.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Dec 1, 2011 15:29:25 GMT 3
Your provocative subjective reading seeks to elicit my reaction. I shall continue to ignore your rubbish! Feel free to take them to Homabay.
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Post by roughrider on Dec 1, 2011 15:34:16 GMT 3
Your provocative subjective reading seeks to elicit my reaction. I shall continue to ignore your rubbish! Feel free to take them to Homabay. I assure you, nothing would please me more. Certainly you haven't done so in the past. But I would welcome this prospect. I am guessing that this is your last response to me. Great!
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Post by roughrider on Dec 1, 2011 15:36:14 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Dec 1, 2011 17:11:50 GMT 3
RR,
Forget the cave man. I thought he went back to his cave already. We are dealing with a fellow with massive inferiority complex desperate to be acknowledged to save his self esteem. He should go to a therapist for that. We are not in that line of business here. Now he reminds me a two year old fighting for a toy and saying "It is mine", "It is mine" Just because he saw somebody else with one. Just ridiculous.
First the poor guy imports arguments from another thread to come here to help his ego. When you go to that thread you will find him exporting issues from this thread there. That is how sick this dude is.
The Miguna issue is over with. It was a nonsensical issue to begin with. Nobody even remembers the brouhaha anymore. That is how irrelevant it is.
For the record my position was that neither me, Miguna or anybody else for that matter knows whether the PM ordered Mr. Pike, the Star editor, not to publish his story. I based my view on actual e-mails I recieved from Miguna. There are actually about five of them. Sadik has not seen or read any of them. He is not my secretary.
Miguna then released his e-mails indicating that Mr. Pike said the PM was upset and Sadik jumped on that to talk about adongo lying yada yada. Someone being upset and someone ordering a newspaper editor not to publish a story are two different things. It is not the business of Mr. Pike to make the PM happy. It is just false to claim the PM ordered anybody not to publish their story and to his credit Miguna has not made that claim. He has only talked about somebody being upset. So much for that non-issue.
On the Somali story here our Somali wannabe is out to lunch. Like I have said that story, some of it in print form, has been read by many Somali folks including academics, activists and even my workmates and colleagues in the anti-racism and social justice networks that I work with and they have very good and encouraging words about it. In fact the swimming suit issue which Sadik is glued on is a non-issue to them. Most of them find Sadik laughable. So don't bother with the rantings of an ignorant self esteem challenged goof. I told him I am not trying to humiliate him but he seems to be bent on doing that himself. We don't care.
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