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Post by mank on Sept 26, 2013 8:09:49 GMT 3
Kathure, no worries. Over the years, I have become used to the same taunts from the usual suspects. Good grown man needing no protection on Jukwaa, and not willing to be the unsuspecting rock on which an individual seeking attention may parasite, like the green frog that coumouflages on the sorghum tree. Stupidass nasty, frog! Done venting. Good, once again! As we all can agree, Wanjiku does not have to be literate in order to present information that may be useful to understanding her plight. Nor does she need to re-invent the wheel and re-write this information, simply to satisfy a few cynics. No doubt. But while not reinventing the wheel, let it be known what the wheel is! Hope you get me. Regarding the relationship between the MCA and the U.S-led “war on terror”: Does Wanjiku need to understand the details as to how “an operational action plan aimed at ensuring that the goals set by the" United States "national security strategy are reached,” and how this is relevant to Kenya? No, Wanjiku doesn't, but if you bring it up here you need to tell us what exactly you are saying. Clearly your thoughts are uncommon. Don't assume that posting an acre of someone's article is communication. Wanyee, I once wrote a paper titled "The Political Economy of a Public Representative." But perhaps you have seen my writings here, in the same taste. My point is, I am quite a skeptic when it comes to concerns of the goods that the politician can be counted upon to deliver to Wanjiku. .. but I am an objectively skeptic. You man, you are out there! Way off into propaganda sect! Jakaswanga, thank you for your much more useful and insightful contribution. What? Amigo Jakaswanga? Did you say that Westagate was bombed by "poverty errandictors," or what was the point? Help me catch up here. |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 26, 2013 8:50:17 GMT 3
mank,
Why do you sound so bitter? Vuta pumzi...au kitu nyingine...utulie tuli kama maji ya mtungi. Si hio picha ni ya rasta fulani?
In order to "qualify" for "development funds" via the MCA, states need to "co-operate" in the U.S-led "war on terror".
I hope that this is a bit more clear.
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Post by kamalet on Sept 26, 2013 9:09:52 GMT 3
mank, Why do you sound so bitter? Vuta pumzi...au kitu nyingine...utulie tuli kama maji ya mtungi. Si hio picha ni ya rasta fulani? In order to "qualify" for "development funds" via the MCA, states need to "co-operate" in the U.S-led "war on terror". I hope that this is a bit more clear. Finally!!!! So what is the relationship of this with the westgate attack or Kenya's incursion in Somalia? The MCA has only made one payment of $12.7million in 2007 and nothing more since.......relate that with Kenya's intesification of the war on terror in 2011 to date and then tell us the link between the MCA and what Kenya is doing today. Swali tu! |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 26, 2013 10:53:24 GMT 3
kamale and mank,
Have you considered "possible official complicity, in order to benefit" from a tragedy that appears to essentially be "blowback" for the KDF's incursion into Somalia?
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is something along the lines of what Oloo is saying, minus the MCA part)
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Post by kamalet on Sept 26, 2013 11:18:35 GMT 3
kamale and mank, Have you considered "possible official complicity, in order to benefit" from a tragedy that appears to essentially be "blowback" for the KDF's incursion into Somalia? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is something along the lines of what Oloo is saying, minus the MCA part) Wanyee You are the one having the theory of 'official complicity'. I see dead kenyan women and children and cannot for a moment think a government that kills its people so that it can get 12 million dollars to fight corruption! Some arguments am afraid need a bit more intelligence! |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 26, 2013 11:40:06 GMT 3
Isn't Oloo also putting forward the theory of "possible official complicity"?
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Post by wanyee on Sept 26, 2013 11:40:52 GMT 3
kamalet,
Isn't Oloo also putting forward the theory of "possible official complicity"?
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Post by mank on Sept 26, 2013 13:54:09 GMT 3
mank, Why do you sound so bitter? Vuta pumzi...au kitu nyingine...utulie tuli kama maji ya mtungi. Si hio picha ni ya rasta fulani? In order to "qualify" for "development funds" via the MCA, states need to "co-operate" in the U.S-led "war on terror". I hope that this is a bit more clear. , Ho no, no bitterness. It was just some business I had to put on the "done" column. But your wisdom in this is well taken. On the topical issue, I share Kamale's thoughts, below: kamale and mank, Have you considered "possible official complicity, in order to benefit" from a tragedy that appears to essentially be "blowback" for the KDF's incursion into Somalia? (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is something along the lines of what Oloo is saying, minus the MCA part) Wanyee You are the one having the theory of 'official complicity'. I see dead kenyan women and children and cannot for a moment think a government that kills its people so that it can get 12 million dollars to fight corruption! Some arguments am afraid need a bit more intelligence! |
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 26, 2013 19:02:53 GMT 3
Jakaswanga, thank you for your much more useful and insightful contribution. What? Amigo Jakaswanga? Did you say that Westagate was bombed by "poverty errandictors," or what was the point? Help me catch up here. Man-K, I am not sure what you misunderstood. But I said British Prime Ministers and foreign secretaries can have brief as ERRAND BOYS for the BRITISH ENERGY AND OIL-RELATED COMMERCIAL INTERESTS. And I gave the example of Tony Blair's controversial rapproachment with Gaddafi then. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/feb/25/tony-blair-colonel-gaddafi-alexander-chancellor that one in red Amigo, what would that be?  |
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Post by mank on Sept 27, 2013 6:31:07 GMT 3
What? Amigo Jakaswanga? Did you say that Westagate was bombed by "poverty errandictors," or what was the point? Help me catch up here. Man-K, I am not sure what you misunderstood. Nothing I misunderstood amigo. I have not even read your's yet. It is something my friend Wanyee said to suggest that you had joined the propaganda cult .. . so I was reaching out to someone I know can quickly get me to see things zig zag, if he is really converted. I am not convinced that you can have joined ... but what do I know! What were those two up to? Did they do it? ...that one in red Amigo, what would that be? Bwaaahahaa .... yahwah! If bad spelling was a crime, my standard 6 teacher would have had me excecuted by the first quarter of the school year (term 1). But if you ask him today he will tell you that the stuff in red is not typical of Man K's spelling problem. By the way, that is the same teacher who would almost (if not really) always do adult stuff in his garments every time he narrated the events of the 2nd WW and especially when he talked of one Paul von Vorbeck (I hated him for his spelling, and his history! But I liked him as a teacher, and loved him as a person). Man K is a bad speller, but not all that. Westagate attack is inexcusable ... we got to stop this cycle, not rationalize it ... that's for Wanyee. By the way, he claims Oloo too is in the cult. |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 27, 2013 8:35:14 GMT 3
Man-K,
While we wait for kamalet's response to the same question: have you read Oloo's piece and confirmed whether he also suggests "official complicity" in the Westgate attack?
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Post by mank on Sept 27, 2013 16:41:23 GMT 3
Man-K, While we wait for kamalet's response to the same question: have you read Oloo's piece and confirmed whether he also suggests "official complicity" in the Westgate attack? Wanyee, I regret not. I am running a tight schedule but will do today |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 27, 2013 17:13:11 GMT 3
Man-K, While we wait for kamalet's response to the same question: have you read Oloo's piece and confirmed whether he also suggests "official complicity" in the Westgate attack? Wanyee, I regret not. I am running a tight schedule but will do today Having read Oloo's post I could not see your version of official complicity but perhaps a lot more on official incompetence! |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 27, 2013 20:12:33 GMT 3
Kamalet,
These are Oloo's own words:
"Even though the picture which is emerging is one of a lethargic, corrupt and incompetent national spy and counter insurgency network, when one looks at the larger geo-political picture, what one ogles is a more sinister, cynical and malevolent scenario.
What if the security and intelligence mandarins at the helm of the National Intelligence Service purposely chose to turn a blind eye to the looming Westgate Massacre?
What if they deliberately allowed the storming of Westgate; the abduction and killing of unarmed civilians, including small children to happen?
What if some dark forces clinically prayed for Al Shabaab to succeed in their bloody vengeful mission?
I know the choir masters and members of the “We Are One “ Choral Group are quaking, apoleptic with shock and anger at Onyango Oloo’s audacity in even contemplating such a “ disloyal” “unpatriotic” and “treasonous” idea.
Well, in case I was not clear, let me say it again:
IT IS POSSIBLE THAT SOME DARK FORCES STEEPED IN THE DUNGEONS OF IMPUNITY WANTED TO ADVANCE THEIR SELFISH INTEREST BY ENSURING THAT THE WESTGATE MASSACRE TOOK PLACE.
Now who would do such a thing, you may ask.
Let me answer you.
The same folks who want to derail the ICC trials.
The same folks who want Kenya to get out of the Rome Statute.
The same folks who are fighting the implementation of the 2010 Constitution tooth and nail, night and day.
They have everything to gain from the insecurity, fear, paranoia and panic generated by the Westgate tragedy.
Don’t you see some of them clamouring for the passage of the Anti-Terrorism Act?
Don’t you see them shouting about more law, more order, more police, more security, more fascism?"
---
Based on the above, is Oloo suggesting mere incompetence, or complicity?
Man-K, what do you think?
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Post by jakaswanga on Sept 27, 2013 20:15:34 GMT 3
Wanyee, I regret not. I am running a tight schedule but will do today Having read Oloo's post I could not see your version of official complicity but perhaps a lot more on official incompetence! Kenyans seem to be stunned by the possibility that wide sectors of the security services knew this was gonna happen, and let it happen. --The story is too shocking in its implications to bear. For that would be High Treason. Treason with a meaning. The meaning of a ruthless backlash, a total purge and life sentences for the various heads who squashed any preventive security action. This consequence, is why the story is dying down. ---Imagine a security officer warned his pregnant sister to keep away from that mall that saturday, but NOBODY warned the family of the President! The implications of this, atomic explosive. |
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Post by mank on Sept 28, 2013 1:24:40 GMT 3
Kamalet, .... --- Based on the above, is Oloo suggesting mere incompetence, or complicity? Man-K, what do you think? Wanyee, My read of Oloo's that you posted is that in Oloo you have the most likely company. But Oloo is not asserting complicity like you are ... he's just saying "what if?" In other words Oloo is skeptical enough of the politicians that he can imagine them going that far - to let people be blown up, and the country be associated with terror like it is now, for political gains. You on the other hand, seem to be implying various forms of complicity of the government in this terror. There is a big difference between those views at present. For company, you should pray that factors continue to arise that foster Oloo's skeptcism. Be careful t what you pray for though. |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 28, 2013 2:43:21 GMT 3
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Post by mank on Sept 28, 2013 4:55:29 GMT 3
Man-K, Why don't you tell us what exactly it is that I am asserting... .. Wanyee, You truly are one of a kind. How can I tell you what exactly you are asserting when you can't tell me what exactly you are asserting? Remember my first contribution on this thread was to ask you the exact question that you are asking me now? What was your answer? Here is the conversation, not to lose any details: First and foremost, Islam does not sanction such barbarism. ..... , The above is the only clear point I can pull out of your long post. Could you provide as concise pointed summary of the rest of your post? It will be highly appreciated. mank, Let us start with the fact that "al-Shabaab claims allegiance to Al-Qaeda, which has been a CIA front for decades, and plays multiple roles as boogeymen as well as 'freedom fighters', on behalf of US policy." Waonaje? What point are you making about the Westgate attack? mank, It is all summed up very well in the first article: "Indeed, Al Shabaab’s attack in Kenya is abhorrent, unjustifiable terrorism – however, what Kenyans and the world as a whole must remember, is who armed them, who continuously props them up, provides them entire nations (Libya) as safe havens, and swells their ranks and armories with billions in cash and thousands of tons of weaponry at a time in war zones like Syria. Al Shabaab’s continued existence, along with its counterparts AQIM across Northern Africa, LIFG in Libya, Boko Haram in Nigeria, and Al Nusra in Syria, is due entirely to both covert and overt Western military and financial backing. The blood of Kenya’s innocent are on the hands of those within the Kenyan government willfully serving as a proxy for US aggression across Africa, and those across the West using Al Qaeda as a geopolitical tool to achieve their global objectives." No Wanyee ... you cant play games now. You cannot post acreages of online articles, I ask you what point you want me Jukwaa to infer from them, you fail to clarify, then at some point you challenge me to tell Jukwaa what point you are making. There are insinuations of points in your postings, but not real points. |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 28, 2013 10:26:53 GMT 3
Man-K (and kamalet), I have already stated what I am asserting: Possible official complicity, in order to benefit from a terrorist attack. The MCA “development funds” might be handed out as “rewards” for supporting the U.S-led “war on terror”. I have already stated all this, but you keep trying to pull this silly “let’s-take-turns-pretending-that-we-don't-understand-while-repeating-the-same-questions-in-different-ways” tag-team strategy. It is not working. No, it is the two of you who need to stop playing games. These are very SERIOUS times my brothers! Pursuant to the above: 1998 Kenya Bombing: Origins of the U.S-Led "War on Terror"jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terror |
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Post by kamalet on Sept 28, 2013 11:39:40 GMT 3
Man-K (and kamalet), I have already stated what I am asserting: Possible official complicity, in order to benefit from a terrorist attack. The MCA “development funds” might be handed out as “rewards” for supporting the U.S-led “war on terror”. I have already stated all this, but you keep trying to pull this silly “let’s-take-turns-pretending-that-we-don't-understand-while-repeating-the-same-questions-in-different-ways” tag-team strategy. It is not working. No, it is the two of you who need to stop playing games. These are very SERIOUS times my brothers! Pursuant to the above: 1998 Kenya Bombing: Genesis of the U.S-Led "War on Terror"jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terrorI honestly find your argument ludicrous. If the MCA is awarded to countries fighting terror, Kenya's incursion into Somalia to hunt the Al Shabaabure would be the best example of a country fighting terror. Kenya did not need to manufacture an attack on its people to get the money........! |
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Post by mank on Sept 28, 2013 18:01:11 GMT 3
Man-K (and kamalet), I have already stated what I am asserting: Possible official complicity, in order to benefit from a terrorist attack. The MCA “development funds” might be handed out as “rewards” for supporting the U.S-led “war on terror”. I have already stated all this, but you keep trying to pull this silly “let’s-take-turns-pretending-that-we-don't-understand-while-repeating-the-same-questions-in-different-ways” tag-team strategy. It is not working. No, it is the two of you who need to stop playing games. These are very SERIOUS times my brothers! Pursuant to the above: 1998 Kenya Bombing: Genesis of the U.S-Led "War on Terror"jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terrorWanyee, Just try a little benefit-cost consideration ... do you anticipate that MCA handouts to Kenya would exceed all damage done to Kenya by terror? Further, you are the one who told us that MCA was put in place right after 9/11. That was 3 years after Kenya already had its "9/11." Do you still think it is worth the time debating your assertion that it is Kenya that calls in terrorism for MCA tockens? If MCA came after Kenya was under the terrorist's spotlight, where is your evidence that Kenya's appetite for MCA benefits is the cause of terror since the initiation of MCA? When did the causes of the terror of 1998 end to be replaced with the new cause that you suggest? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2013 0:47:46 GMT 3
Saturday, September 28, 2013 - 16:00 -- BY POLITICAL DESK Military officers arrive for the operation at nakumatt westgate. Photo/charles kimani Just who was the military fighting at Westgate on Sunday and Monday? We are told by people who were inside the mall during the siege that there were no terrorists shooting at the officers. We hear that the terrorists were contained on Saturday evening by regular, administration and police reservists who arrived at the scene moments after the attack occurred. Questions are now being asked why the military kicked out everyone else and went on shooting till Wednesday and never showed any body of the terrorists who had been killed. Questions are also being raised on who and why the building was collapsed yet the terrorists had been contained in Nakumatt on Saturday. ==== Still on matters Westgate, why did the military take so long to allow other people, including forensic experts, in? We are told that military also tampered with forensic evidence by busting water pipes, a move that contaminated the scene. Corridors is also wondering why the military wanted to completely demolish the Westgate building despite having declared victory against the terror group. www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-137658/corridors-power |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 29, 2013 7:44:57 GMT 3
Kamalet and Man-K, This is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to your tag-team strategy. We were talking about the issue of official complicity, and now you are both evading this increasingly hot subject. We'll get to the MCA later. Kamalet, let us go back to the post where I referred you to Oloo's words. Incompetence or official complicity? Man-K, while we wait for kamalet's response, can we agree that official complicity cannot be ruled out? See also:1998 Kenya Bombing: Origins of the U.S-Led "War on Terror"SOURCE: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terror |
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Post by mank on Sept 29, 2013 18:46:47 GMT 3
Kamalet and Man-K, This is exactly what I was talking about when I referred to your tag-team strategy. We were talking about the issue of official complicity, and now you are both evading this increasingly hot subject. We'll get to the MCA later. Kamalet, let us go back to the post where I referred you to Oloo's words. Incompetence or official complicity? Man-K, while we wait for kamalet's response, can we agree that official complicity cannot be ruled out? See also:1998 Kenya Bombing: Origins of the U.S-Led "War on Terror"SOURCE: jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terrorWanyee, Suppose someone punched you in the nose, and you saw signs that he would punch you again and again. Now, if you do that which you believe is necessary to deal with such aggression, but the guy punches you in the nose again anyway, is it fair for observers to allege that you were complacent in the second punch because of the steps you took after the first punch? Is that not the form of complacency that you allege of Kenya in her situation with terror? Because Kenya was supposed to do what? Sit down and take it? If that is your definition of complacency, then we can agree. But is that really what you set this thread to be about? To redefine the term complacency so that we agree on the words you post even though we know we are worlds apart on the actual concept? As we talk about the Westgate attack let us not forget that many more terror plans have been foiled - recall all the times we have heard about guns and explosives being intercepted on the roads. Each of those events is likely to have been behind a "Westgate", avoided because Kenya was guarding itself (or being complacent, in your view of things). You brought MCA up but now you say we'll deal with it later? So the common sense question I asked you about it for later? |
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Post by wanyee on Sept 29, 2013 23:19:58 GMT 3
Man-K, "Complacency" and "complicity" are two VERY DIFFERENT words. The definition of "complacency": "a feeling of quiet pleasure or security, often while unaware of some potential danger, defect, or the like; self-satisfaction or smug satisfaction with an existing situation, condition, etc." The definition of "complicity": "associated with or participating in a questionable act or a crime." As you can see, VERY DIFFERENT meanings! Now Man-K, can we agree that official complicity CANNOT be ruled out in the Westgate attack? -- Kamalet, I am still awaiting your response to my last question. See also: 1998 Kenya Bombing: Origins of the U.S-Led "War on Terror" jukwaa.proboards.com/thread/8699/1998-kenya-bombing-genesis-terror |
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