|
|
Post by destiny on Nov 5, 2011 16:07:27 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by destiny on Nov 5, 2011 16:15:16 GMT 3
Personally I think Kibunjia and his NCIC are unfair since every town has it's fair share of hired goons. The only way to stem this tide of violence and mindless thuggery as the one Tuju encountered is to create job opportunities for our youths. You simply don't condemn xenophobia while demonising an entire community. That careless statement from the cohesion watchdog will only make investors shun the beautiful city of Kisumu thus create more poverty and joblessness. That's just absurd and how on earth did they arrive at such a conclusion?
|
|
|
|
Post by kamalet on Nov 5, 2011 17:22:48 GMT 3
Personally I think Kibunjia and his NCIC are unfair since every town has it's fair share of hired goons. The only way to stem this tide of violence and mindless thuggery as the one Tuju encountered is to create job opportunities for our youths. You simply don't condemn xenophobia while demonising an entire community. That careless statement from the cohesion watchdog will only make investors shun the beautiful city of Kisumu thus create more poverty and joblessness. That's just absurd and how on earth did they arrive at such a conclusion? Destiny Valid point. But does it not then remove the need for a leadership change which means that Tuju is surplus to requirements? |
|
|
|
Post by mwalimumkuu on Nov 5, 2011 20:44:43 GMT 3
Tuju needs to learn and learn very fast; you do not take thirsty donkey to the river and force it to drink water.
|
|
|
|
Post by joblesscorner on Nov 6, 2011 4:12:39 GMT 3
Some comments on facebook about this....
"When RAO was kicked out of a hotel owned by a relative to the first family just before 2007 elections was there demand on the part of the president to reign on his supporters and relatives? Tuju's predicament yesterday should not be ascribed to RAO, the radical mentality of the people from the lake has been there since the 60s, when mzee Jomo Kenyata was stoned with rotten eggs in Kisumu after the assasination of Tom Mboya, RAO was not in politics then. Leave RAO alone because Tuju cannot win even a councillors seat in RARIENDA. Let his sponsors elect him since he regrets being born a Luo. I fear for Luos because this man will revenge against them if he becomes presso"
|
|
|
|
Post by einstein on Nov 6, 2011 4:18:35 GMT 3
Seriously, I do not understand Tuju. Here is a true Kenyan in the real sense of the word, that is, Kenyan first and tribe somewhere down the hierarchy. With this mentality, Tuju should be able to win the presidency without relying on the Luo Nyanza vote!!
My question is, why is Tuju continuing to cause unnecessary pain to Luo Nyanza residents when he actually does not need their vote to win the presidency?
Last time in 2005, during the referendum, when he visited Luo Nyanza together with Martha Karua in the name of liberating Luo Nyanza, the whole visit resulted into deaths of the same people he wanted to liberate. The same people rejected him.
Now again, he goes there under the same mantra and he gets rejected with the result that the people he wants to lead get hurt in stone-throwing incidents and many vehicles in his convoy get damaged!!
Honestly, I do not get Tuju's logic. The whole country apart from Luo Nyanza is ready for his presidency. That should give him enough mandate to rule the whole country!
He could spare Luo Nyanza this unnecessary conflict since the rest of Kenya is ready for him. After all, even Jesus Christ was rejected by his own community and yet today Jesus Christ rules sovereign in the whole world!!
Jesus Christ is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
What is Tuju's problem?
|
|
|
|
Post by jakaswanga on Nov 6, 2011 10:37:53 GMT 3
Good politics and common sense in the light of a thing called second liberation, demands leaders, especially leaders from Nyanza where this stone-throwing at candidate Tuju is likely to recurr, must come out and condemn this thuggery. They must strongly defend principle. The principle of freedom of movement [and campaign] for all candidates. There are no pre-reserved areas for certain candidates however much they aspire. I remember some Gikuyus reminded Uhuru Kenyatta of this, when he was crowned Muthamaki, and some of his die-hard supporters warned especially Karua to stop soiling the pond, or she would be forcefully married off!
A loud silence from the political leaders of Nyanza will indicate tacit approval of this once favourite sport of Gor Mahia fans! Now, who will stand up and be counted?
On Jukwaa, definately not my brother Einstein!
|
|
|
|
Post by roughrider on Nov 6, 2011 14:16:18 GMT 3
Good politics and common sense in the light of a thing called second liberation, demands leaders, especially leaders from Nyanza where this stone-throwing at candidate Tuju is likely to recurr, must come out and condemn this thuggery. They must strongly defend principle. The principle of freedom of movement [and campaign] for all candidates. There are no pre-reserved areas for certain candidates however much they aspire. I remember some Gikuyus reminded Uhuru Kenyatta of this, when he was crowned Muthamaki, and some of his die-hard supporters warned especially Karua to stop soiling the pond, or she would be forcefully married off! A loud silence from the political leaders of Nyanza will indicate tacit approval of this once favourite sport of Gor Mahia fans! Now, who will stand up and be counted? On Jukwaa, definately not my brother Einstein!Perhaps you missed the press reports of leaders from Nyanza welcoming Tuju's candidature and urging the residents to listen to his policies. It was all over the news. I was in Kisumu recently and my impression is that Tuju's problems there have nothing to do with any incitement or organised thuggery from other politicians. As his campaign said, the problem was caused by youth who had wanted jobs in his campaign but were rebuffed. Tuju supporters dismissed the attack saying it was organised by youth who had earlier demanded jobs as Tuju security detail. So why are we talking of 'loud silence'  |
|
|
|
Post by moesha on Nov 6, 2011 17:08:46 GMT 3
This was all very well calculated and right after the KKV saga. Tuju and his handlers knew they would encounter hostile reception on that part of town (kondele), and yet decided not to beef up security, why?
This is exactly what he wanted, a win-win situation. If he recieved a warm welcome, it would have been a win over Raila, if he recieved a hostile welcome, shows the rest of the country that Raila's home turf is a no go zone, gets sympathy votes, makes Raila look bad, still a win for Tuju.
He got a warm welcome on the other parts of Nyanza, why are we not seeing that in the media? Politics as usual.
|
|
|
|
Post by destiny on Nov 7, 2011 16:42:07 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by destiny on Nov 7, 2011 17:49:03 GMT 3
|
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Nov 7, 2011 19:30:03 GMT 3
Talk about fifteen minutes of fame. If this is how Tuju is going to win the presidency he better find another country where he can be president. Kenya may not be that country. Running around with some nut case stone throwers in Kondele is not going to take Tuju very far. What exactly is Tuju's plan before we all scream sore about stone throwers. Raphael Tuju is a good man and a terrible politician. He is going nowhere, stones or no stones. Oh yeah, we fully and thoroughly condemn the stone throwers! Don't laugh now, this is a serious matter.
|
|
|
|
Post by mwalimumkuu on Nov 7, 2011 20:29:35 GMT 3
Talk about fifteen minutes of fame. If this is how Tuju is going to win the presidency he better find another country where he can be president. Kenya may not be that country. Running around with some nut case stone throwers in Kondele is not going to take Tuju very far. What exactly is Tuju's plan before we all scream sore about stone throwers. Raphael Tuju is a good man and a terrible politician. He is going nowhere, stones or no stones. Oh yeah, we fully and thoroughly condemn the stone throwers! Don't laugh now, this is a serious matter. These fellows are just picking from where they signed off in 2008. NO RAILA NO PEACE. |
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Nov 7, 2011 20:34:55 GMT 3
Talk about fifteen minutes of fame. If this is how Tuju is going to win the presidency he better find another country where he can be president. Kenya may not be that country. Running around with some nut case stone throwers in Kondele is not going to take Tuju very far. What exactly is Tuju's plan before we all scream sore about stone throwers. Raphael Tuju is a good man and a terrible politician. He is going nowhere, stones or no stones. Oh yeah, we fully and thoroughly condemn the stone throwers! Don't laugh now, this is a serious matter. These fellows are just picking from where they signed off in 2008. NO RAILA NO PEACE. hehehehehe. Just tell Kibaki or whoever not to rob elections and start killing people. If they try that Kenyans will whip them again and again and Uhuru can send his mass killers and rapists right from the Hague jail cells and get a double life sentence. That is his problem. Tuju is a practical joke. Poor Raph. Where is the daddy now of Raph my son! |
|
|
|
Post by mzee on Nov 7, 2011 21:10:33 GMT 3
Jukwaa,
I was at Kondele in Kisumu when the stoning of Tuju took place. I had gone there to monitor some development projects I have in the area when i found myself in the middle of the incident. I arrived at the spot that he was supposed to address people 20 minutes before he arrived. Youth were already talking of teaching him a lesson inspite of the fact that the police were around. I got out of the car and stood around waiting to hear what he had to say. But that was not to be. What I heard before stones started raining was “ ero obiro, janek” (here comes the murderer) .
Since then I have seen the media spread lies that he was stoned because people perceive him as a spoiler for the PM. Truth be told, the youth were saying that they were teaching Tuju a lesson to avenge the death of a young man “he killed “a few years ago. The young man from Kondele was shot dead by the police guarding Tuju when he took his PPP campaign to Kisumu. The people of kondele claimed that Tuju talked very carelessly after the incident. He infact praised the police for the shooting. For this reason, they have made kondele a no go zone for him. Remember that even William Ruto has addressed people in kondele without incident. So the stoning had nothing with Raila to do. Afterall Tuju addressed people in Kibuye without incident on the same day.
|
|
|
|
Post by tnk on Nov 7, 2011 21:28:14 GMT 3
Jukwaa, I was at Kondele in Kisumu when the stoning of Tuju took place. I had gone there to monitor some development projects I have in the area when i found myself in the middle of the incident. I arrived at the spot that he was supposed to address people 20 minutes before he arrived. Youth were already talking of teaching him a lesson inspite of the fact that the police was around. I got out of the car a stood around waiting to hear what he had to say. But that was not to be. What I heard w before stones started raining was “ ero obiro, janek” (here comes the murderer) . Since then I have seen the media spread lies that he was stoned because people perceive him as a spoiler for the PM. Truth be told, the youth were saying that they were teaching Tuju a lesson to avenge the death of a young man “he killed “a few years ago. The young man from Kondele was shot dead by the police guarding Tuju when he took his PPP campaign to Kisumu. The people of kondele claimed that Tuju talked very carelessly after the incident. He infact praised the police for the shooting. For this reason, they have made kondele a no go zone for him. Remember that even William Ruto has addressed people in kondele without incident. So the stoning had nothing with Raila to do. Afterall Tuju addressed people in Kibuye without incident on the same day. thanks mzee its this kind of grassroots reporting/information that we desperately need and forget about the so called mainstream media and its prejudices i knew something wasn't right with the other reports, there was absolutely no reason for the stoning since the guy is considered a political lightweight. its like stoning eugene wamalwa. folks will castigate you for "wasting" rocks. |
|
|
|
Post by merlin on Nov 7, 2011 23:30:29 GMT 3
Jobless or Money motivated?
Hecklers and supporters are often purchased by politicians though build-up disappointed the feeling of hopelessness or the fun reward of hooliganism can lead to situations as seen by Tuju’s vist to Kisumu.
Whatever the motivation it is illegal / criminal behaviour and condemned.
In case of paid hecklers the police should take action and discover the funder / sponsor and charge them for creating a felony.
In this way the hypocrisy of politicians who selectively complain about disturbances could be stemmed down.
However not all disturbances can be controlled. A better understanding of the motivation and involvement of youngsters should be sought by creating additional job posts for Social youth workers.
Personal experience.
I once have been in a similar situation as Tuju driving a campaign bus in a sensitive area and got stoned by youth. However I went back to the area on foot and got in contact with their leadership. We both came to mutual understanding and I became their trust person for issues between them and government authorities.
|
|
|
|
Post by jakaswanga on Nov 8, 2011 0:05:37 GMT 3
Perhaps you missed the press reports of .....{} It was all over the news. {} .............. [ b]So why are we talking of 'loud silence'[/b] [/quote] RR,Now the condemnations are coming thick and fast... to break the LOUD SILENCE I was sickened by. Though I notice the absence of the Nyanza MPS from the condemnation. Maybe the were waiting for Agwambo to yawo pap, to lead them! Now he has, the herd will surely bleat along. |
|
|
|
Post by adongo23456 on Nov 8, 2011 0:16:26 GMT 3
Perhaps you missed the press reports of .....{} It was all over the news. {} .............. [ b]So why are we talking of 'loud silence'[/b] [/quote] RR,Now the condemnations are coming thick and fast... to break the LOUD SILENCE I was sickened by. Though I notice the absence of the Nyanza MPS from the condemnation. Maybe the were waiting for Agwambo to yawo pap, to lead them! Now he has, the herd will surely bleat along.[/quote] hehehehehehe, Jakaswanga, this was a non-event. His excellency Raph my son, just wanted a little fun to spice up the campaign to nowhere. Tuju knows the youth marauders were waiting for him. As mzee says Tuju is accused of being responsible for the death of some youth who was shot by cops protecting Tuju I guess during his failed campaign to be the new king of Nyanza. Remember how that flopped completely and the dude couldn't even keep his Rarieda seat. Now you have a bunch of rowdy chaps baying for your blood and you go there to address 20 people while you can tansverse the whole of Kibuye market and meet thousands of people or visit my beloved Bondo City and have uji in the market and talk to my uncle the tailor at one of the shops who spends more time talking to folk sitting around than minting suits. If Tuju really wants to be elected for anything he should talk with Kibaki and try the Othaya seat which is falling vacant. Let kibaki walk the talk with his son. Otherwise wake me up when Tuju needs help at the swearing in ceremony at State House. I will come with bulls to be chinjad for the occassion. Tuju after all is my neighbour and heh is in good standing with me. Hell I could try to buy a country for that guy to run. I am already talking with some fellow from Mauritius and they may need help down there. |
|
|
|
Post by mzalendo on Nov 8, 2011 15:52:52 GMT 3
RR,Now the condemnations are coming thick and fast... to break the LOUD SILENCE I was sickened by. Though I notice the absence of the Nyanza MPS from the condemnation. Maybe the were waiting for Agwambo to yawo pap, to lead them! Now he has, the herd will surely bleat along. hehehehehehe, Jakaswanga, this was a non-event. His excellency Raph my son, just wanted a little fun to spice up the campaign to nowhere. Tuju knows the youth marauders were waiting for him. As mzee says Tuju is accused of being responsible for the death of some youth who was shot by cops protecting Tuju I guess during his failed campaign to be the new king of Nyanza. Remember how that flopped completely and the dude couldn't even keep his Rarieda seat. Now you have a bunch of rowdy chaps baying for your blood and you go there to address 20 people while you can tansverse the whole of Kibuye market and meet thousands of people or visit my beloved Bondo City and have uji in the market and talk to my uncle the tailor at one of the shops who spends more time talking to folk sitting around than minting suits. If Tuju really wants to be elected for anything he should talk with Kibaki and try the Othaya seat which is falling vacant. Let kibaki walk the talk with his son. Otherwise wake me up when Tuju needs help at the swearing in ceremony at State House. I will come with bulls to be chinjad for the occassion. Tuju after all is my neighbour and heh is in good standing with me. Hell I could try to buy a country for that guy to run. I am already talking with some fellow from Mauritius and they may need help down there. Adongo, That is very hilarious |
|
|
|
Post by justfacts on Nov 8, 2011 22:56:07 GMT 3
Tuju’s strong points are his eloquence, his face, lack of corruption and his standing up to RAO dominance in Nyanza.
Eloquence is a good thing but only if it can reach the masses in their language. His attempt to dumb down through Sheng fell flat on the first step and was on the wrong platform, how many Mashinani folks check out stuff on Youtube?
His face (read: youthfulness and some say handsomeness-which had a bad ricochet on Kalonzo) can bag him a few votes from urban middleclass who admire his finesse, American style campaign bus and who dare to live out their pretence of tribe neutrality.
As far as it is known in the public domain he is Mr. Clean, like many before him this could be lack of opportunity. I distinctly remember Kibaki inauguration (the daylight one) where he said corruption will stop being a way of life in Kenya. Look where we are now!
And also in that event one Daniel Moi was pelted with projectiles before international media and delegates- but I guess he was our pet hate then and so no need for a raised finger.
Has Tuju built a coalition of point men who can move their weight to meet the minimum votes spelt in the constitution countrywide? Is he intending to go to the trenches? The weekend funerals, engage in the to and fro heated sound bites with other contenders? And stop by for some roadside gathering in Kimwarer. I find all this too low class for his taste.
Final verdict! this guy is majoring in the minor. An elitist snob who is just but an untainted and refined version of Ruto, only closer to Bondo. Remove RAO and his agenda is lost. My only question to him would be WHO SENT YOU? Maybe this is what Kisumu residents wanted to know and went about it the hooligan way- totally out of line.
About NCIC? -Just another ineffectual bunch of busybodies bleeding the budget just like Brand Kenya, Government spokesman, Vision 2030 et al.
|
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Nov 9, 2011 11:12:45 GMT 3
Tuju’s strong points are his eloquence, his face, lack of corruption and his standing up to RAO dominance in Nyanza. Eloquence is a good thing but only if it can reach the masses in their language. His attempt to dumb down through Sheng fell flat on the first step and was on the wrong platform, how many Mashinani folks check out stuff on Youtube? His face (read: youthfulness and some say handsomeness-which had a bad ricochet on Kalonzo) can bag him a few votes from urban middleclass who admire his finesse, American style campaign bus and who dare to live out their pretence of tribe neutrality. As far as it is known in the public domain he is Mr. Clean, like many before him this could be lack of opportunity. I distinctly remember Kibaki inauguration (the daylight one) where he said corruption will stop being a way of life in Kenya. Look where we are now! And also in that event one Daniel Moi was pelted with projectiles before international media and delegates- but I guess he was our pet hate then and so no need for a raised finger. Has Tuju built a coalition of point men who can move their weight to meet the minimum votes spelt in the constitution countrywide? Is he intending to go to the trenches? The weekend funerals, engage in the to and fro heated sound bites with other contenders? And stop by for some roadside gathering in Kimwarer. I find all this too low class for his taste. Final verdict! this guy is majoring in the minor. An elitist snob who is just but an untainted and refined version of Ruto, only closer to Bondo. Remove RAO and his agenda is lost. My only question to him would be WHO SENT YOU? Maybe this is what Kisumu residents wanted to know and went about it the hooligan way- totally out of line. About NCIC? -Just another ineffectual bunch of busybodies bleeding the budget just like Brand Kenya, Government spokesman, Vision 2030 et al. Dear Mr. Tuju, I am not sure if you are going to read this and if you happen to read it, I am not sure if you will think about it live alone doing it. Nonetheless, I will go ahead and demand as a jentleman that you APOLIGISE to the people of Kisumu. What happenned during your tour of Kondele was uncalled for but that should not overshadow the fact that the people of Kisumu 'welcomed' you wholeheartedly and stopped going their activities to listen to you. Kondele was just one out of the many places you visited in Kisumu and does not even make 10% of your visit. To totally and intentionally rubish the reception and corperation you received from the residents of the lakeside town just because some few youths tried to confront you in Kondele is a kin to destroying the bridge that helped you cross the river. Am sure even the Al-Shabaab of Kismayu can not do that. We the peaople of Kisumu County and by large Luo Nyanza has undergone untold humiliation, abuse and redicule for a mistake that was totaly not our doing and in the eye of other communities, we are warmongers and hoolligans. Being a Luo brother, you must have known how proud a people we are, proud of our tribe, proud of our city of Kisumu and Damn proud to be luos. The people of Kisumu city are not hoolligance, the people of Kisumu County are not hooligans, And, by God, the people of Luo Nyanza are not hoolligance. We are not going to allow that one issolated insident be used to insult our kindness, hospitality and tollerance. For this and many more reasons, WE DEMAND THAT YOU UNCONDITIONALY APOLOGISE TO USE and promise to work with us with mutual respect and understanding for the betterment of our county and the larger Country. PS. Please tell Kibunja that we are waiting for his apology and he better do it soonest. Dear Mr. Tuju, I am not sure if you are going to read this and if you happen to read it, I am not sure if you will think about it live alone doing it. Nonetheless, I will go ahead and demand as a jentleman that you APOLIGISE to the people of Kisumu. What happenned during your tour of Kondele was uncalled for but that should not overshadow the fact that the people of Kisumu 'welcomed' you wholeheartedly and stopped going their activities to listen to you. Kondele was just one out of the many places you visited in Kisumu and does not even make 10% of your visit. To totally and intentionally rubish the reception and corperation you received from the residents of the lakeside town just because some few youths tried to confront you in Kondele is a kin to destroying the bridge that helped you cross the river. Am sure even the Al-Shabaab of Kismayu can not do that. We the peaople of Kisumu County and by large Luo Nyanza has undergone untold humiliation, abuse and redicule for a mistake that was totaly not our doing and in the eye of other communities, we are warmongers and hoolligans. Being a Luo brother, you must have known how proud a people we are, proud of our tribe, proud of our city of Kisumu and Damn proud to be luos. The people of Kisumu city are not hoolligance, the people of Kisumu County are not hooligans, And, by God, the people of Luo Nyanza are not hoolligance. We are not going to allow that one issolated insident be used to insult our kindness, hospitality and tollerance. For this and many more reasons, WE DEMAND THAT YOU UNCONDITIONALY APOLOGISE TO USE and promise to work with us with mutual respect and understanding for the betterment of our county and the larger Country. PS. Please tell Kibunja that we are waiting for his apology and he better do it soonest. |
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Nov 9, 2011 11:16:42 GMT 3
Dear Mr. Tuju,
I am not sure if you are going to read this and if you happen to read it, I am not sure if you will think about it live alone doing it. Nonetheless, I will go ahead and demand as a jentleman that you APOLIGISE to the people of Kisumu.
What happenned during your tour of Kondele was uncalled for but that should not overshadow the fact that the people of Kisumu 'welcomed' you wholeheartedly and stopped going their activities to listen to you. Kondele was just one out of the many places you visited in Kisumu and does not even make 10% of your visit.
To totally and intentionally rubish the reception and corperation you received from the residents of the lakeside town just because some few youths tried to confront you in Kondele is a kin to destroying the bridge that helped you cross the river. Am sure even the Al-Shabaab of Kismayu can not do that.
We the peaople of Kisumu County and by large Luo Nyanza has undergone untold humiliation, abuse and redicule for a mistake that was totaly not our doing and in the eye of other communities, we are warmongers and hoolligans.
Being a Luo brother, you must have known how proud a people we are, proud of our tribe, proud of our city of Kisumu and Damn proud to be luos. The people of Kisumu city are not hoolligance, the people of Kisumu County are not hooligans, And, by God, the people of Luo Nyanza are not hoolligance.
We are not going to allow that one issolated insident be used to insult our kindness, hospitality and tollerance. For this and many more reasons, WE DEMAND THAT YOU UNCONDITIONALY APOLOGISE TO USE and promise to work with us with mutual respect and understanding for the betterment of our county and the larger Country.
PS.
Please tell Kibunja that we are waiting for his apology and he better do it soonest.
|
|
|
|
Post by hunter on Nov 9, 2011 11:53:04 GMT 3
After writing an open letter to Mr. Tuju demanding an apology and posting the same on his official facebook page. I am so pained that Mr. Tuju did not find it necessary to reply my letter but instead deleted my letter, removed me and parmanently blocked me from accesing his page.
This is intolerance of the highest level and I wish to appeal to wana Jukwaa who might be able to log into Tuju's website or facebook page to help get the opology for the people of Kisum county.
Thank you guys.
|
|
|
|
Post by jakaswanga on Nov 9, 2011 19:38:47 GMT 3
hehehehehehe, Jakaswanga, Now .....()() ...or visit my beloved Bondo City and have uji in the market and talk to my uncle the tailor at one of the shops who spends more time talking to folk sitting around than minting suits..... , Ei Yawa! Sorry to be irrelevant a bit here, oyadha, but I cannot desist, after that comical story of your uncle and his singer [ charan] under a shade in Bondo market! The world sure is small! I had a similar uncle in Homa Bay, a charcoal dealer, under an oak tree next to a bus stage. Those were the days of no mobiles, radio broadcasts in dholuo for 1 hour per day, OTC bus to far-off Nairobi where letters took 7 days to go, and newspapers, if any, arrived one week later! The man was nicknamed fwambo to keyo, a kind of news gathering and broadcasting service. As passengers dropped or waited, he would engage them and he would be the first to know of the news from far-away Kampala where Amin was busy killing our people, Nairobi or Kisumu. And as the day progressed, locals would log-in or lurk around the oak tree for the news from around the world! Let us say selling charcoal was not his major business under that tree! He had opened a bar of talk! [Ocassionally someone would forget a newspaper, and he would send for me from the primary school to come and read and translate for him!] So I sometimes wonder whether Oloo's Jukwaa is not a version of that oak tree club. I log in or lurk to keep abreast with posts from all corners of the thinking world!  |
|
