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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 12, 2005 1:45:59 GMT 3
Daily Nation story by STEPHEN MBURU
Publication Date: 10/12/2005[ Cabinet ministers Raila Odinga and Kiraitu Murungi are at each other's jugular once again over the executive powers in the proposed new Constitution. In an interview with Nation's STEPHEN MBURU, Mr Murungi says fears that the draft seeks to take the country back to a ''strong-man syndrome" are unfounded. ] Excerpts: Daily Nation: Why has the issue of the Executive generated so much political heat?
Mr Kiraitu Murungi: This because of just one person; Raila Odinga. All the heat we have is because of his personal ambitions to ascend to power. He has tried various strategies in the past. In 1997, he abandoned us and went to cooperate with (former President) Moi. He thought instead of confrontation, he could get to power by cooperating with Moi. When that route was not possible he came to cooperate with Kibaki. And now he thinks Kibaki will go to 2012, he has decided it is time for Kibaki to go.
The heat we have now is nothing else. It is for Raila to satisfy his ambition to rule this country.
Q: Mr Odinga says he is always ready to serve as a President or Prime Minister under any Constitution that has the support of most Kenyans. Why would proponents of the Yes or Banana vote continue to accuse him of seeking executive powers through the back door?Mr Murungi: Who would believe him. Today he says he is not interested in Prime Minister. Tomorrow he leads his own (Orange) Movement against the Constitution because of the issue of PM.
He tried to become president in 1997. He failed. The reason why he has been going for a strong PM is because he knows he cannot win presidential elections. He is looking for other ways of ruling without being elected.Q: Mr Odinga argues the draft seeks to create an imperial President What is your reaction?Mr Murungi: Some months back, Raila and his team called me a chameleon over this Constitution. It is coming out very clearly now Raila is the biggest chameleon. When we went to Naivasha, he agreed we should have a PM Tanzanian style. Why this issue has come back after Naivasha, I don't understand.Q: Mr Odinga argues that a strong President can kill multi-party democracy as he will have a free hand to appoint non-MPs to his Cabinet even without consulting party chairpersons. Is that correct?Mr Murungi: The proposed Constitution has clear provisions for the growth of multi-party democracy, including public funding of all political parties and how members of the parties would behave.
I don't think the new Constitution will be creating a paper multi-party democracy. Only 20 per cent of Members of Parliament shall be nominated as ministers outside Parliament. The idea was to improve the quality of the Cabinet. We might have, say, a top economist, political scientist or engineer, who can never get into politics through the electoral process, but can contribute greatly to this country. The President is given a window to improve the quality of the Cabinet and management of the country by allowing 20 per cent to come from the civil society and religious leaders who are not in the electoral system. Raila supported that proposal when we were at Naivasha. We don't know when, again, he changed his mind.
Q: There is also the argument that since the document does not limit the number of Cabinet ministers and assistants, a President can dominate Parliament by appointing most MPs to the government.
Mr Murungi: It is quite clear that either those advancing such argument have not read the Constitution, or are deliberately refusing to understand it. The Constitution says Parliament will fix the number of Cabinet ministers. The president has no powers to fix the size of the Cabinet.
Kenya has many communities. For us to have a stable society it is important to have a government that represents various communities. We the left that (the fixing of the number of Cabinet ministers) to Parliament to look at various sectors within the society so that when fixing the number of ministries that is taken into account.Q: How effective will constitutional commissions be in keeping checks and balances on the President, yet their chairpersons would be presidential appointees?Mr Murungi: Have you forgotten under the new Constitution, there will be no presidential appointee. It would be a joint appointment by the president and Parliament. These fears are unfounded.Q: What are the advantages of a presidential system as opposed to the parliamentary system as far as the executive powers are concerned?Mr Murungi: The criticisms we have been receiving is that the new Constitution will create an imperial president. It is true we have divided a presidential system. A system where with checks and balances and a system where power is devolved between the President and Parliament, the President and commissions, and between the central and district governments.
The tyrannical imperial presidency we have witnessed in the past is going to be a thing of the past under the new Constitution. I challenge the Orange team to tells us a single African country where there is a parliamentary system.
The contest between a President and PM has always been the cause of instability in fledging African democracies. As we (the Government) said at Bomas, we can never support a system where we have two centres of power. We are not going to accept this so as to please just one person. We have to put Kenya first.Q: Would you agree with the argument that imperial presidents have bred dictatorship resulting in instability and bloodshed in most African countries?Mr Murungi: The imperial president, in the days of 'Presidents-for-life,' the likes of Kamuzu Bandas, were creatures of single-party rule. In the new multi-party democracy, such immense powers have been checked. We are not talking about an imperial president but a democratically-elected one.Q: Why should we have a Prime Minister who will only be an errand boy in Parliament? Mr Murungi: The PM will be the leader of government business in the Parliament and perform other duties as assigned to him by the President. The President can assign him to coordinate ministries and government affairs. The President can assign him to chair the Cabinet when he is not there. So I don't know where the idea of errand boy comes from. Q: Mr Odinga says the ‘political tsunami’’ he had predicted is now with us. Could it be the reason why the Government now seems to have softened its stance on land issues?Mr Murungi: We don't see a 'political tsunami.' We see a storm in a tea cup in the Orange campaign.
Q: Do you see the Banana vote carrying the day at the referendum?Mr Murungi: Obviously, Kenyans are going to overwhelmingly vote for the Banana. The noise you hear and the huge crowds you see at the Orange rallies will not translate into votes. People might attend these rallies for entertainment.
It has happened in the past. In 1992, when we were in Ford Kenya with Raila, we run very spirited campaigns countrywide. We were cheered everywhere we went. But we never got votes.
Q: Your crucial message at the moment?Mr Murungi: First is to my friend Raila. I was his lawyer when he was in detention. We have struggled together against oppression and dictatorship for a long time. As I go to bed, I always wonder whether he remembers what we have gone through under the old Constitution, which he now says that we should adopt by rejecting the new one. I appeal to him not to conduct his politics like a rolling stone; rolling from the big FORD, (Forum for the Restoration of Democracy), Ford-Kenya, NDP (National Development Party), Kanu, Narc.
We have struggled for a new Constitution for the past 15 years. Let us all join hands and give our country a new future and forget the dark past.
I appeal to all Kenyans to turn out in large numbers at and vote Yes at the referendum. |
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Post by kamalet on Oct 12, 2005 12:12:07 GMT 3
A rolling stone gathers no .....!!
Perhaps to back up Kiraitu on Raila being without msimamo, last wednesday on KTN, Luois Otieno asked Raila to name 3 persons still with him from his days of the 'struggle' and he could name only two whom even Luois doubted, i.e. Wanyiri Kihoro and Adhu Awiti!
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Oct 12, 2005 12:35:59 GMT 3
Check out my list of the 15 Biggest Banana Blunders elsewhere on this board...
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Post by roughrider on Oct 12, 2005 16:12:28 GMT 3
Kamale: I listened to that same programme… I distinctly heard another name: Edward Oyugi, quite obviously kamale did not. But of course we all know how few the ones that have stuck onto the straight and narrow are…
Beyond that Raila has outlined the issues of contention in that Kilifi mongrel clearly and eloquently. perhaps Kiraitu shopuld spend longer dealing with those GLARINGT unanswered issues... I was hoping to see logical, well argued rebuttals but I see none. Instead we are being offered a menu of 'reassurances' and things like 'the intention is' and a tired dessert of personal attacks on just one man, Raila.
Kenyans know who has changed their principles and who has not. But we need not go there; the people will make it clear on 21st of November (If the government does not engineer postponement in shame – already the president is being advised to do so to avoid humiliation)
No amount of personal attacks can alter a flawed constitution.
Raila stuck to the issues in the constitution; Kiraitu chose to talk about personal conflicts and politics. I like that because we know the difference
The only reason I’m writing is to respond to this particular fallacy:
Q: Do you see the Banana vote carrying the day at the referendum?
Mr Murungi: Obviously, Kenyans are going to overwhelmingly vote for the Banana. The noise you hear and the huge crowds you see at the Orange rallies will not translate into votes. People might attend these rallies for entertainment.
It has happened in the past. In 1992, when we were in Ford Kenya with Raila, we run very spirited campaigns countrywide. We were cheered everywhere we went. But we never got votes.
Take that again:
The noise you hear and the huge crowds you see at the Orange rallies will not translate into votes
Hehehehe - just 3 years ago, that NOISE and those HUGE CROWDS put Mwai KIbaki into state house. And leading the movement was the same Agwambo.
But there is more:
It has happened in the past. In 1992, when we were in Ford Kenya with Raila, we run very spirited campaigns countrywide. We were cheered everywhere we went. But we never got votes.
In 1992?
In 1992 Moi RIGGED mercilessly. Is DP planning to RIG mercilessly? And by the way, when I say Moi rigged, I am quoting a very old magazine that is quoting one Kiraitu Murungi. That magazine is called Finance.
In 1992, there was FORD-Asili and there was DP. The opposition was hopelessly fragmented. Not so with the referendum. There is only YES and NO. It’s tragic isn’t it? We can’t use ‘divide and rule’ can we?
And Kiraitu? When did Kiraitu ever become the campaigner alongside accomplished giants like Raila?
But this is besides the point. This Katiba is flawed in content and process.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 12, 2005 17:21:40 GMT 3
RR,
On the 1992 elections, I am struggling to agree with you on the issue of rigging. What Moi did and was very successful in doing was to splinter the original FORD between Jaramogi and Matiba and then of course you had Kibaki in the background! That was all he needed since a united Ford would have won the election!
If Moi rigged, then it was his success in splitting FORD into two and not vote stealing!
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Post by kariukiwamathira on Oct 12, 2005 17:50:30 GMT 3
K,
I was wondering whether anyone else noticed that Raila was uncomfortable when questions on those he has carried along with him in all his struggles were asked .... the answer to his constant realignments is sooo easy .... it was supplied by one of his kinsmen very recently .... and was 'blood is thicker than water' ......... In a nutshell we are tribal beings even if we say otherwise and the upcoming referendum will bear me witness.
wa Mathira
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Post by job on Oct 12, 2005 18:02:51 GMT 3
Kamale,
I'll confirm my identity by stating that I'm Job (of Washington DC) & not Miguna. If I'm not wrong Miguna is actually based in a neighbouring country, Toronto, Canada.
Since you didn't rebutt on my points, I'll just briefly comment in response to some observations you just made. It is an Irony for Kiraitu to claim that Raila is a "rolling stone that gathers no moss".
The yard stick of measuring consistency to reforms is definitely not - how few political Parties one has affiliated with, otherwise Moi will be the undisputed & ultimate reformist in Kenya. It is Moi who's ladden with most moss in this respect.
The Irony lies in the fact that it is actually Kiraitu who has flip-flopped & taken a sudden U-turn with regard to reforms...hence "Rolled totally over". Note that Murungi has rolled so badly, that he is now bereft of any "moss", as he has lost majority national support.
Raila's consistency as a reformist is reflected in the massive solidarity he enjoys today, having accumulated "moss" in this respect, through many years of principled & sometimes defiant steadfastness.
To ask a rhetoric question, "Whose fault is it that Raila has lost many comrades in the liberation struggle?". Are you insinuating that if Raila can only remember names of Wanyiri Kihoro & Adhu Awiti as compatriots, then he has a problem?
C'mon buddy, he just lost one in Kiraitu Murungi after NAK tasted the fruits of power. Many followed suit. Koigi, Mirugi, Kibwana, Kuria, Kituyi, et al soon "rolled" with Murungi to abandon the liberation movement.
They formed a ferocious gang that "eats" the peoples honey and rebukes real reformists that opted to stick with the peoples demands. That's why we don't have the new constitution we proposed to the CKRC, a.k.a. Bomas Draft, to date.
Lastly, on a lighter note, you may wanna correct your spelling of the KTN anchor's name, lest somebody thinks .........other things. Louis Otieno may be different from LuoIs Otieno.
unedited.
Job.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 12, 2005 18:08:12 GMT 3
Wamathira
I would have actually gone into the details of how many times Louis asked him " name just three..." but the point was very well made.
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Post by kamalet on Oct 12, 2005 18:39:15 GMT 3
Kamale, I'll confirm my identity by stating that I'm Job (of Washington DC) & not Miguna. If I'm not wrong Miguna is actually based in a neighbouring country, Toronto, Canada. Since you didn't rebutt on my points, I'll just briefly comment in response to some observations you just made. It is an Irony for Kiraitu to claim that Raila is a "rolling stone that gathers no moss". The yard stick of measuring consistency to reforms is definitely not - how few political Parties one has affiliated with, otherwise Moi will be the undisputed & ultimate reformist in Kenya. It is Moi who's ladden with most moss in this respect. The Irony lies in the fact that it is actually Kiraitu who has flip-flopped & taken a sudden U-turn with regard to reforms...hence "Rolled totally over". Note that Murungi has rolled so badly, that he is now bereft of any "moss", as he has lost majority national support. Raila's consistency as a reformist is reflected in the massive solidarity he enjoys today, having accumulated "moss" in this respect, through many years of principled & sometimes defiant steadfastness. To ask a rhetoric question, "Whose fault is it that Raila has lost many comrades in the liberation struggle?". Are you insinuating that if Raila can only remember names of Wanyiri Kihoro & Adhu Awiti as compatriots, then he has a problem? C'mon buddy, he just lost one in Kiraitu Murungi after NAK tasted the fruits of power. Many followed suit. Koigi, Mirugi, Kibwana, Kuria, Kituyi, et al soon "rolled" with Murungi to abandon the liberation movement. They formed a ferocious gang that "eats" the peoples honey and rebukes real reformists that opted to stick with the peoples demands. That's why we don't have the new constitution we proposed to the CKRC, a.k.a. Bomas Draft, to date. Lastly, on a lighter note, you may wanna correct your spelling of the KTN anchor's name, lest somebody thinks .........other things. Louis Otieno may be different from LuoIs Otieno. unedited. Job. Job, Then apologies would be in order! As for Louis, my fault..! If you actually checked, I did offer a rebuttal. With regard to the comments that you make with regard to consistency, if you were a wee bit honest with yourself, you would at least acknowledge that not a single KENYAN politician can be called consistent. But when you look into Raila's 'consistency' then this is driven more by personal greed than that reform you talk about. Raila is no more a reformer than Kiraitu. Hopefully on their incosistency, we can agree. We can also agree that Raila has been more of a political acrobat than his rival!! |
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Post by job on Oct 12, 2005 19:37:50 GMT 3
Ok Kamale,
I partly agree & partly disagree.
With regard to reforms; I agree that Kiraitu is inconsistent, but disgree that Raila too is inconsistent.
Both were liberationists, but the inconsistent one lost the zeal upon tasting power. You know who that is.
With regard to ambition for power (what some clever politicians conveniently label 'greed for power'); both are infact ambitious politicians.
While Raila doesn't shy from stating his ambition to become either Prime minister or President of Kenya, Murungi prefers to work under the shadows of an Imperial President, abeit as a "powerful kitchen figure". Murungi may be doubting his national influence (or rather knows how unopular he is) hence he veils his power plans under a political God father.
If Raila's agenda to a top national seat is intertwined with the reform struggle of Kenyan people, so be it, he shall prevail for being as you fittingly described "a political acrobat".
By extension, if he is indeed a political acrobat, then he will defy the common notion you expect of most politicians like Kibaki & Murungi and actually deliver the reforms we yearn for. For that matter he may not abandon the people, & Kenyans will have moved forward with reforms in governance, corruption, fair & equitable resource allocation, etc .
For either of two reasons, many YES proponents seem to focus talk on post referendum now,& on Raila for that matter; either (1) they are slowly coming to terms with an impending loss, or (2) they are deviating referendum talk to instill Railaphobia as part of a Banana campaign stategy.
Kenyan's must choose to stick to the point for now, the Constitution debate, either YES or NO to the Wako Mongrel.
peace.
unedited.
Job.
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