Hon Mbadi keep up the pressure...........
These people must justify if Kenya belongs to all of us or a few of us.
Question No.527
LIST OF PERSONS RECRUITED INTO KENYA DEFENCE FORCES
Mr. Mbadi asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he could provide a list per-district of the persons recently recruited to the Kenya Defence Forces, indicating the gender distribution in each district.
The Minister of State for Defence (Mr. Haji): Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have discussed with Mr. Mbadi, my friend, of my inability to answer this Question today. He has consented and with your permission, I would like to answer it on Tuesday.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Mr. Mbadi, are you comfortable with this Question being deferred to Tuesday next week?
Mr. Mbadi: Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, the Minister explained to me that he was not able to prepare the answer today, and he will be ready to do it on Tuesday. I hope he will do it on Tuesday. The explanation he gave me was that he got this Question yesterday, although it was approved more than a week ago.
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Fair enough! The Chair directs that the Question appears on the Order Paper next week!
(Question deferred)
It was quite obvious from the beginning that figurehead Yusuf Hajji was never going to be in parliament to answer this question.
They had to bring Hon Musila, their guest in the coalition, to do the dirty work and cover-up for them. 'National Security' the same familiar scary words they used in trying to subvert the new constitution. The same words David Musila invokes in bunge.
Parliament on 8th December 2010, afternoon session was very interesting!
Look at how Hon Musila is hiding behind the some standing order to justify he unfair and skewed recruitment of Kenyans into the national armed forces! Musila knows that list does not reflect the face of Kenya..
LIST OF PERSONS RECRUITED INTO KENYA DEFENCE FORCES
Mr. Mbadi asked the Minister of State for Defence whether he could provide the per-district list of persons recently recruited to the Kenya Defence Forces, indicating the gender distribution in each district.
The Assistant Minister, Ministry of State for Defence (Mr. Musila): Mr.Speaker, Sir, I beg to reply. The number of persons recently recruited to the Kenya Defence Forces cannot be disclosed for security reasons. For this reason, I wish to invoke Standing Order No. 43(11). Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.
Mr. Mbadi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Assistant Minister has invoked Standing Order No. 43(11). It says:- “A Question shall not seek information which, by operation of any written law, is secret.” Mr. Speaker, Sir, I asked for per district names of people recently recruited to the Kenya Defence Forces. The same Assistant Minister is on record saying previously in this House that they recruited 1,800 members in total. It would benefit this House if he explained how an indication of how many people were recruited from each district and the gender balance is secret. How secret is that? Could he explain to this House?
Mr. Musila: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sympathize with the Member for Gwassi. However, as it should be appreciated, matters of the Defence Forces are not to be discussed openly. For this reason, I still maintain that it will not be prudent and in national interest to discuss numbers and the gender of recruits to the Defence Forces. Yesterday, you will recall, there was a Question regarding recruits to teacher training colleges. We cannot equate the recruitment of members of the Defence Forces to other institutions. This is bound to disclose figures and strength of the military which is not in the national interest.
(Several hon. Members stood up in their places)
Mr. Speaker: Order! Hon. Members, please, relax. Mr. Assistant Minister, the Member for Gwassi contended, not very long ago, that you disclosed the numbers of the persons recruited. So, what is secret now in giving the answer in order of breakdown per district? You have not addressed yourself to that to enable me give direction.
Mr. Musila: Mr. Speaker, it may not and it will not be difficult for us to give the numbers per district as the Member had indicated. However, you will appreciate that will not be the end of the question. The supplementary questions pertaining to such a question would lead to matters that are secret in nature.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, I want you to listen to the various concerns by hon. Members because that will help me to give direction. So, please, listen.
I may want your responses and thereafter, I will give appropriate direction. So, let us begin with the hon. Member for Gwassi.
Mr. Mbadi: Mr. Speaker, Sir, you rightly quoted me when I said that the Assistant Minister not too long ago talked about recruiting 1,800. He even went further and said that 400 or thereabout of the same, were women. The question I am asking is very simple. I want him to give the breakdown per district of that number that he gave us. There is nothing that will compromise on the security of this country. I find it out of order for him to anticipate and speculate on questions which are likely to come to the Floor of this House.
Mr. Kabogo: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. If you heard the Assistant Minister, he clearly said that if he were to give the number of recruits for this year to this House, he will be disclosing the strength of the armed forces in the country. He wants to hide under the issue of secrecy. It is not the strength of the entire armed forces that we are asking. We are asking only about the breakdown of a figure that he has already given. If you go to the Standing Order, 43 (11), it says: “A Question shall not seek information which, by operation of any written law, is secret.” He has not told us operation of which law is secret.
Mr. Lessonet: Mr. Speaker, Sir, definitely, what the Assistant Minister is supposed to lay on the Table of this House cannot be secret considering that even the Budget of his Ministry is laid on this Table. For instance, this year, this House approved more than Kshs40 billion for his Ministry. That cannot be a secret. So, it cannot, therefore, be a secret when it comes to names of recruits. Further to that, if it is truly a secret, this is a constitutional House, the Kenya National Assembly and we can go into camera to listen to him.
Mr. Speaker: Member for Imenti Central! We must really bring this to an end.
Mr. Imanyara: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. My concern is that the Assistant Minister is arrogating to himself the role of interpreting the Standing Orders. He is the one who is determining what is secret rather than asking you whether releasing that information would not be in breach of the Standing Orders. Is it in order for him to purport to interpret the Standing Orders of the House rather than referring to the Speaker to declare what amounts to secrecy?
Ms. Abdalla: Mr. Speaker, Sir, since the Assistant Minister has declined to give the breakdown per district, could he give the allocation per district?
(Mr. Olago stood up in his place)
Mr. Speaker: Member for Kisumu Town West, you know that you cannot arrogate yourself the duty of determining which one should be the last question. Mr. Assistant Minister, could you respond to those issues because I would want to give directions?
Mr. Musila: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. With regard to the question raised by hon. Imanyara, I want to say that I consulted the Chair in this respect. Therefore, I did not determine the matter myself. I consulted the Chair and sought guidance because I felt that it was not in the public interest to respond. If the Chair feels strongly that I give this answer, then I will do so.
Mr. Speaker: Order! Mr. Assistant Minister, sit for a moment. You stood to answer Question No.547 and claimed that the information sought was secret. Just satisfy me that the answer would compromise State security or secret. Why is it secret? That is what I want to know. I will not force you to give that information if you can satisfy me and the House that it is secret.
Mr. Musila: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I do not know how I can satisfy you. I said that—
Mr. Speaker: Tell me what prejudice this disclosure would cause.
Mr. Musila: Mr. Speaker, Sir, I said with respect, that the information sought was secret. I said that if the House would want me to give this answer in camera, then I would do so.
Mr. Olago: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have a lot of respect for hon. Musila. However, I think he got it wrong this time round. In addition to what hon. Kabogo said that he has to state the law on which he is relying, it is important that if he will invoke confidentiality as the ground to which he will not answer a Question before the House, is it in order for him to do so, without regarding Section 35 of the Constitution which is clear and states as follows: “Every citizen has a right to access of; (a) Information held by the State.”
Mr. Washiali: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Not long ago, I asked a Question to the same Assistant Minister for Defence, wanting to know how many recruits had been recruited from Mumias. He gave me five names. He even laid on the Table the names of the officers who had been recruited. Why has it now become a secret and he cannot disclose information regarding other districts?
Mr. Speaker: Hon. Members, I have heard adequate information on this and I want to address myself on this matter and give directions tomorrow afternoon at 2.30 p.m. However, even as I retreat to do so, Assistant Minister, I am afraid I am a bit skeptical. You have not satisfied me as to why you are claiming that this information would be secret. What prejudice would it cause? It is a simple thing! You ought to have said to this House what damage it would cause if you disclosed this information. In my mind, I am able to speculate that the Assistant Minister has just not put anything on record.
Mr. Musila: Mr. Speaker, Sir, if for example the Member for Gwassi wished that I give him the numbers and names of people recruited from his constituency or district, I will be obliged to do so. But giving national names and figures, I think is not in the interest of the State.
(Several hon. Members stood up in their places)
Mr. Speaker: Order, hon. Members! This matter must rest there. I will give directions on this matter tomorrow at 2.30 p.m. Hon. Members, that then brings us to the end of Question Time!
Next order!
Mr. Speaker: Are there any Statements which are ready to be delivered?
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