DID RAILA KNOW?

[kamalet]

Reports are now emerging that Raila may not have been in the picture regarding the planned genocide in Rift Valley by Kalenjin warriors. It appears that some people within ODM had prior plans of the violence that took place in Eldoret and its environs immediately the results of Kibaki's victory were announced.

Whilst the violence in Kisumu and Nairobi seemed spontaneous, the violence in Eldoret seemed well planned and executed. In Nairobi, Mombasa and Kisumu, the violence seemed to target property and street demos whilst that in Eldoret was the total opposite - targeting human life. The deaths in Kisumu, Nairobi and Mombasa can be attributed to the police quelling the violence.

A new line of investigation seems to have been started to look at the separation of political violence and criminal violence since there are those in ODM who say that whilst the supported the protests, they did not envisage the murder that was perpetrated on certain ethnic communities. If you look at the targeting in North Rift, it was not just the kikuyus who were targeted, but luhyias and kisiis despite the fact they voted for ODM. This is being seen as the plot by the 'other' ODM faction who were prepared to eliminate all other communities from their area.

Now you know.

[JAHAATWACH]

Trust Kamalet not to disappoint with his nuanced profiling of Kenyan political terrain and Raila of course as his pet subject.

Here he is baiting and sabre rattling Jukwaa at the same time.

Ok who will go first on this one?

[kamalet]

The modus operandi of the spontaneous violence:

By Stephanie McCrummen
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, January 28, 2008; A16

KISUMU, Kenya -- Three weeks after burning down the old Kimwa Grand Hotel here, many of the admitted arsonists returned to its charred remains, scavenging sheets of scrap metal, doors and wires.

Many did so proudly, even triumphantly, offering an explanation now familiar in this city of broken windows and flowering trees: The business was owned by a supporter of President Mwai Kibaki, whom many here accuse of stealing the Dec. 27 election.

"We have to resort to this to send a message to Kibaki!" said Humphries Odongo, hauling off a share of metal.

But there was another reason he was picking through the ruins.

With his city half-wrecked and food prices skyrocketing, Odongo said he hoped to sell the scraps so he could eat.

"Unemployment is a problem," he said last week. "All these kiosks and businesses were burned, so now not even those jobs are there."

It took just a few days of window-smashing, rock-throwing, car-burning fury to drive most members of Kibaki's tribe, the Kikuyu, out of this opposition stronghold on the edge of Lake Victoria in western Kenya.

The riots and looting were part of a wave of violence that followed the disputed election, plunging Kenya into possibly its worst political crisis since independence.

But people in Kisumu say they were also venting frustrations with what they consider to be an economic imbalance between themselves and their Kikuyu neighbors, widely perceived across Kenya to be part of a privileged political class.

To emphasize that their motives were economic as well as ethnic, Odongo and some of the other looters pointed out that they had also torched several Indian-owned businesses, including a supermarket that was one of the largest employers in Kisumu but whose owner was accused of paying substandard wages.

Now, however, people are facing the consequences of driving out the neighbors and business owners they resented: rising unemployment, food shortages and skyrocketing prices. The local chamber of commerce estimates that 5,000 jobs have been lost so far.

The damage reflects the larger story across much of Kenya, whose promising economy has been devastated by the post-election crisis. Often responsible for the damage were supporters of opposition leader Raila Odinga, who campaigned on a promise to distribute wealth more equitably.

Kenyan manufacturers estimate that 500,000 jobs could be lost if a solution is not found soon. The tourism industry is "basically dead," said one industry analyst, who put losses at $85 million over the past month. Banana farmers who were barely eking out a living even before the crisis are now practically giving away their produce because they can't ship it out. Real-estate analysts estimate property damage at $15 million.

The figures represent a significant loss for the Kenyan economy, which had grown by more than 6 percent annually in recent years, compared with about 2 percent when Kibaki took charge in 2002.

Around Kisumu, all sorts of other Kikuyu-owned businesses have stopped operating. Trucks are no longer bringing in vegetables. Major bus routes from here to Nairobi have been closed. And blocks of downtown -- including the main thoroughfare, Odinga Odinga Street, named for Odinga's father, a political hero to many Kenyans -- are scarred with blackened shops, taxis and trucks, hotels and grocery stores.

The lingering questions are whether the business people, particularly the traumatized Kikuyus, will return, and whether Kisumu can survive without them.

"We are wishing them to return," said Jared Ochanda, chairman of the local chamber of commerce. "How that will happen is anybody's guess."

The 50 or so Kikuyu residents remaining in Kisumu as of last week were all living under armed guard at a local police station, waiting for bus tickets out.

Sitting outside the tented camp were people who had done business in Kisumu for more than 30 years: a scrap-metal shop owner, a lumber merchant, a barbershop owner and a truck driver, who said that a fleet of six trucks, which were owned by an Indian businessman and driven mainly by Kikuyus, had been torched.

"We've been here for three weeks," said one man, Daniel Thuku, 35. Since arriving, he said, he had not set foot beyond the wire fence surrounding the station, where people from town often gather to hurl stones and insults.

"They shout that they will kill us," said Samuel Kangethe, 28, the truck driver. "That's why we need to leave here and go home."

He predicted that the city would fall into a period of decline without the investment of Kikuyus and Indians.

"Even they have started saying they are suffering," he said, referring to his former neighbors beyond the fence.

Kisumu is situated in the Nyanza province of western Kenya, which is considered the land of the Luo, Odinga's tribe. For years, the Luo have complained that the region has been underdeveloped compared with Kibaki's home province in central Kenya, and many had pinned their hopes for a better life on Odinga's election.

Kikuyus who have settled in the area over the past 50 years, often with the help of loans and other favors from the Kikuyu political establishment, have fled by the busloads as their houses and businesses have been burned. Nearly 800 people have been killed and 200,000 displaced in post-election violence, most in the volatile western part of the country.

At least 70 people were killed over the weekend, as the fighting between Kikuyu gangs and those supporting Odinga spread to the previously calm cities of Nakuru and Naivasha, a lakeside tourist haven.

In Kisumu, a city of pleasant green parks, two-story buildings and once-bustling outdoor markets, tensions remained high last week.

"We don't want to see them here," said Theresa Atieno, referring to her Kikuyu neighbors as she sold tomatoes along a street.

Rose Juma Adhiambo, who was selling greens in front of a row of shuttered Kikuyu shops, said she has not been able to find pineapples, mangoes or bananas lately, because the trucks that usually bring them to Kisumu have stopped coming.

Her income has dwindled from $15 a day to about $7.

"My customers have gone back to the rural areas," she said, referring to Kikuyus and others who have fled. She was a bit sad to have seen her Kikuyu friends go, she said, but saw it as a political necessity. "Maybe after all this fracas has gone, they will come back," she said.

In another neighborhood just outside town, shop owner Joel Siderra was not so sure they would return.

His supply of bread has been cut off. By early afternoon, he had just one loaf to sell.

"God knows when they will come back," he said. "People are still very bitter."

The suffering is a sign of the inequality that has existed for years, he said, and people are fed up with it.

With access to bank loans and capital monopolized by a single community, he said, it is unlikely that the remaining residents will have the wherewithal to replace the businesses that have left, unless Odinga is able to negotiate a significant share of power.

Until then, many people seemed willing to bear the consequences of life without their Kikuyu neighbors.

"I have to accept that," said Odongo, the looter at the hotel, whose own bar was burned down during the riots because it was next to a Kikuyu liquor store. "I don't regret."

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … =rss_world

[denno]

Is this part of the divide and rule strategy that PNU wants to employ? Raila is Good , Ruto is bad..mmmm

[insidious]

While Kibaki's mob is definitely in the 'know', a desperate attempt to connect Raila is in the offing. PNU ought not to surprise anyone by now.

[pippyza]

kamalet said:

Reports are now emerging that Raila may not have been in the picture regarding the planned genocide in Rift Valley by Kalenjin warriors. It appears that some people within ODM had prior plans of the violence that took place in Eldoret and its environs immediately the results of Kibaki's victory were announced.

Whilst the violence in Kisumu and Nairobi seemed spontaneous, the violence in Eldoret seemed well planned and executed. In Nairobi, Mombasa and Kisumu, the violence seemed to target property and street demos whilst that in Eldoret was the total opposite - targeting human life. The deaths in Kisumu, Nairobi and Mombasa can be attributed to the police quelling the violence.

A new line of investigation seems to have been started to look at the separation of political violence and criminal violence since there are those in ODM who say that whilst the supported the protests, they did not envisage the murder that was perpetrated on certain ethnic communities. If you look at the targeting in North Rift, it was not just the kikuyus who were targeted, but luhyias and kisiis despite the fact they voted for ODM. This is being seen as the plot by the 'other' ODM faction who were prepared to eliminate all other communities from their area.

Now you know.

¨

This Krap can never be left to go unchallenged.

There is a wider scheme by the Kenya Nyangaus in state house to isolate Raila from the Rift Valley leaders in particular Hon. William Ruto.

Nobody masterminded the Rift Valley violence nor the so called spontaneous one from Kisumu. Infact, The Police killed many more Kenyans than the armed gangs have done in both Kisumu and Eldoret.

My Warning to ODM supporters;

Mwai Kibaki is solely responsible for the violence that has rocked the country. If the elections were not rigged, there would have been no violence.

All the Rutos, Railas, Mudavadis, Balalas,Ngilus and the Nyagas of our united Party ODM must never let the Kibaki snakes betray us..

William Ruto is our hero. FULL STOP

[adongo23456]

Kamale

With due respect I quite can't see the link between the story you have posted about of the Luo kids looting shops and restaurants with the question of this thread, which is very simple.

Was Raila and or others involved in pre-meditated plans of ethnic violence and attacks. Your story which I think I saw somewhere else is more about how terrible life now in Kisumu. And how much it is all their problem. This is very close to the Lucy Kibaki school of thought. By the way Kimwa Hotel was a very nice place for bus travelers between Kisumu and Nairobi. It was almost becoming a landmark in Kisumu. It is sad to know it went down. All these things will come back. That is story for another day.

To me the key issue is that the international community want to investigate who was privy to arrangements to attack people either in support of or in protest against electoral results? How were these arrangements made both within the state structures or opposition structures? Where is the evidence?

Was Raila engaged in plans to get crimes committed against certain communities? How about Ruto? If so where is the evidence.

Today withdrawal of traveling privileges to 10 big shots is good. We are told some of Kibaki's key cabinet members are on the list. Even with them I say bring out the evidence.

There is in fact ready evidence that the police force and allied networks have committed acts of murder, property destruction, arson, criminal negligence etc. This stuff is documented.

There is overwhelming evidence of a government rigging operations which went hand in arms with movement of national security forces. Remember the bus loads AP's just the night before the elections.
In fact the then Minister of Defense Njenga Karume warned Kenyans that they would bring out the armed forces to enforce their government. It was alarming but many Kenyans thought it would never happen. Now it is here.

So all Kenyans should welcome international investigators on the post electoral violence and what preceded it.

And we should also welcome the almost guaranteed establishment of the Truth Justice And Reconciliation Committee. That is something that was supposed to happen five years ago. Now it took this calamity for all political sides to say yes we are ready for it, but that is fine. What is great is that it is going to go way back so as to be able to address the issues of land acquisition, resource access and many others. And now that everybody knows human rights is not limited to a few misguided activists getting the behind locked in jail and complaining about it, may be we can do a lot of good for the country and be thankful to the 1,000 and counting who have lost their lives to get us to see the obvious.


adongo

[enigma]

pippyza said:

kamalet said:

Reports are now emerging that Raila may not have been in the picture regarding the planned genocide in Rift Valley by Kalenjin warriors. It appears that some people within ODM had prior plans of the violence that took place in Eldoret and its environs immediately the results of Kibaki's victory were announced.

Whilst the violence in Kisumu and Nairobi seemed spontaneous, the violence in Eldoret seemed well planned and executed. In Nairobi, Mombasa and Kisumu, the violence seemed to target property and street demos whilst that in Eldoret was the total opposite - targeting human life. The deaths in Kisumu, Nairobi and Mombasa can be attributed to the police quelling the violence.

A new line of investigation seems to have been started to look at the separation of political violence and criminal violence since there are those in ODM who say that whilst the supported the protests, they did not envisage the murder that was perpetrated on certain ethnic communities. If you look at the targeting in North Rift, it was not just the kikuyus who were targeted, but luhyias and kisiis despite the fact they voted for ODM. This is being seen as the plot by the 'other' ODM faction who were prepared to eliminate all other communities from their area.

Now you know.

¨

This Krap can never be left to go unchallenged.

There is a wider scheme by the Kenya Nyangaus in state house to isolate Raila from the Rift Valley leaders in particular Hon. William Ruto.

Nobody masterminded the Rift Valley violence nor the so called spontaneous one from Kisumu. Infact, The Police killed many more Kenyans than the armed gangs have done in both Kisumu and Eldoret.

My Warning to ODM supporters;

Mwai Kibaki is solely responsible for the violence that has rocked the country. If the elections were not rigged, there would have been no violence.

All the Rutos, Railas, Mudavadis, Balalas,Ngilus and the Nyagas of our united Party ODM must never let the Kibaki snakes betray us..

William Ruto is our hero. FULL STOP

Lets take the burning church for starters. So these youths spontaneously bought mattresses, doused them with petrol, supplied the same to refugees at a church, lit the match and stood by as the church burned, casually throwing burning bodies back into the flames. All this was spontaneous? Petrol was purchased spontaneously? A 2 meter trench was dug in the tarmac spontaneously? None of this is premeditated? Take that to a court of law. Put your hero in the dock and allow me on the bar. I have credible evidence that a former GSU commandant was instrumental in the premeditated attacks on the businesses of non-Kalenjins by ODM supporters in Aldai. The attacks were well planned before the elections, they were to occur regardless of the outcome of the elections, with the presumption that an ODM victory would have precluded any government crackdown owing to the overwhelming support RV gave to R. The culprits are the planners and executors of this scheme. This is a contravention of criminal and public law and something should be done regardless of the reconciliation efforts. If you want Kibaki and his cohorts in the dock, thats well and good. But justice and restitution must be the recompense of those maimed, traumatized and dispossessed by the violence.

[pippyza]

enigma said:

pippyza said:

¨

This Krap can never be left to go unchallenged.

There is a wider scheme by the Kenya Nyangaus in state house to isolate Raila from the Rift Valley leaders in particular Hon. William Ruto.

Nobody masterminded the Rift Valley violence nor the so called spontaneous one from Kisumu. Infact, The Police killed many more Kenyans than the armed gangs have done in both Kisumu and Eldoret.

My Warning to ODM supporters;

Mwai Kibaki is solely responsible for the violence that has rocked the country. If the elections were not rigged, there would have been no violence.

All the Rutos, Railas, Mudavadis, Balalas,Ngilus and the Nyagas of our united Party ODM must never let the Kibaki snakes betray us..

William Ruto is our hero. FULL STOP

Lets take the burning church for starters. So these youths spontaneously bought mattresses, doused them with petrol, supplied the same to refugees at a church, lit the match and stood by as the church burned, casually throwing burning bodies back into the flames. All this was spontaneous? Petrol was purchased spontaneously? A 2 meter trench was dug in the tarmac spontaneously? None of this is premeditated? Take that to a court of law. Put your hero in the dock and allow me on the bar. I have credible evidence that a former GSU commandant was instrumental in the premeditated attacks on the businesses of non-Kalenjins by ODM supporters in Aldai. The attacks were well planned before the elections, they were to occur regardless of the outcome of the elections, with the presumption that an ODM victory would have precluded any government crackdown owing to the overwhelming support RV gave to R. The culprits are the planners and executors of this scheme. This is a contravention of criminal and public law and something should be done regardless of the reconciliation efforts. If you want Kibaki and his cohorts in the dock, thats well and good. But justice and restitution must be the recompense of those maimed, traumatized and dispossessed by the violence.

I hope you have no problem revealing the names of the people with your credible evidences and i´ll prove it to you that were it not for the election rigging that immediately sparked Kenya into violence, there would be no violence anywhere in Kenya.

Kenyans are simply protesting but the Kibaki administration was the first to introduce the shoot to kill orders. In my opinion, Kenyans are simply fighting back violence from the police force.

The Clashes in Rift Valley over land is not new. If anybody did organise it, then this happened in 1992 not 2007. I hope that the Injustice meted on Kalenjins by Kenyatta regime would be rectified soon.

Violence is not the solution to anything.

[kamalet]

Adongo,

I do appreciate the thrust of the Washington Post story was to show the state of Kisumu. What I hoped to achieve in posting it was to get the views of those interviewed to show they had genuine anger at "feeling cheated" whilst what happened in the North Rift was very different.

For those who see a plot of dividing Raila and Ruto, their views are misplaced. Mine was an analysis undertaken to look at the two situations, match them against Raila's post election comments against those by Ruto on the violence and come to some conclusion. My view is that Raila and several other people were not aware of the planned violence or even the scale of it in Rift Valley. For now, several communities should be thankful that Kibaki won the elections (and not just Kikuyus!) as the plan as now known was for an even worse massacre.

[adongo23456]

kamalet said:

Adongo,

I do appreciate the thrust of the Washington Post story was to show the state of Kisumu. What I hoped to achieve in posting it was to get the views of those interviewed to show they had genuine anger at "feeling cheated" whilst what happened in the North Rift was very different.

For those who see a plot of dividing Raila and Ruto, their views are misplaced. Mine was an analysis undertaken to look at the two situations, match them against Raila's post election comments against those by Ruto on the violence and come to some conclusion. My view is that Raila and several other people were not aware of the planned violence or even the scale of it in Rift Valley. For now, several communities should be thankful that Kibaki won the elections (and not just Kikuyus!) as the plan as now known was for an even worse massacre.

And in which country did Kibaki win the elections? I am sure they must be waiting for him there? What is the shipping cost?

adongo

[50cents]

adongo23456 said:

kamalet said:

Adongo,

I do appreciate the thrust of the Washington Post story was to show the state of Kisumu. What I hoped to achieve in posting it was to get the views of those interviewed to show they had genuine anger at "feeling cheated" whilst what happened in the North Rift was very different.

For those who see a plot of dividing Raila and Ruto, their views are misplaced. Mine was an analysis undertaken to look at the two situations, match them against Raila's post election comments against those by Ruto on the violence and come to some conclusion. My view is that Raila and several other people were not aware of the planned violence or even the scale of it in Rift Valley. For now, several communities should be thankful that Kibaki won the elections (and not just Kikuyus!) as the plan as now known was for an even worse massacre.

And in which country did Kibaki win the elections? I am sure they must be waiting for him there? What is the shipping cost?

adongo

Dream on AO, not over his(kibaki's) dead body. His happiest day was when kisumu burnt down.

Infact over the next days of this coup staged by kibaki, for every 7 days of the week he will spend 6.5 days chilling at SH. Sofar he has spent an average of 6.55days and am still counting.

[enigma]

pippyza said:

enigma said:

Lets take the burning church for starters. So these youths spontaneously bought mattresses, doused them with petrol, supplied the same to refugees at a church, lit the match and stood by as the church burned, casually throwing burning bodies back into the flames. All this was spontaneous? Petrol was purchased spontaneously? A 2 meter trench was dug in the tarmac spontaneously? None of this is premeditated? Take that to a court of law. Put your hero in the dock and allow me on the bar. I have credible evidence that a former GSU commandant was instrumental in the premeditated attacks on the businesses of non-Kalenjins by ODM supporters in Aldai. The attacks were well planned before the elections, they were to occur regardless of the outcome of the elections, with the presumption that an ODM victory would have precluded any government crackdown owing to the overwhelming support RV gave to R. The culprits are the planners and executors of this scheme. This is a contravention of criminal and public law and something should be done regardless of the reconciliation efforts. If you want Kibaki and his cohorts in the dock, thats well and good. But justice and restitution must be the recompense of those maimed, traumatized and dispossessed by the violence.

I hope you have no problem revealing the names of the people with your credible evidences and i´ll prove it to you that were it not for the election rigging that immediately sparked Kenya into violence, there would be no violence anywhere in Kenya.

Kenyans are simply protesting but the Kibaki administration was the first to introduce the shoot to kill orders. In my opinion, Kenyans are simply fighting back violence from the police force.

The Clashes in Rift Valley over land is not new. If anybody did organize it, then this happened in 1992 not 2007. I hope that the Injustice meted on Kalenjins by Kenyatta regime would be rectified soon.

Violence is not the solution to anything.

@pippyza....Dont bluff on this one. I am naming the former GSU Commander, Mr Samson Cheramboss (currently ODM chief security adviser) with regard to Aldai. Now prove to us that he mobilized the attackers only after the elections were rigged. And why were Luhyas, who voted overwhelmingly for ODM even in Aldai targeted? I was on the ground between 6th and 18th January 2008. 8 individuals were killed in one incident, in another the attackers made an incursion into Serem (in neighboring Hamisi District) with the aim of killing Kikuyu traders and looting their businesses but some ''traitors'' betrayed the ''cause'' because they have always co-existed peacefully with the intended target. Raila may or may not have known but there are people in the ODM high command who definitely strategized and committed resources to ethnic cleansing. There is credible evidence to that effect and we await their arraignment for crimes against humanity, and then all will be laid bare.

[adongo23456]

My suspicion is that most of who committed what crime before, during and after the elections are going to go to the TJRC agenda.

Kibaki and his PNU diehards are going to demand a guarantee that those implicated in ethnic cleansing in RV will not be protected from prosecution. That is of course normal procedure everywhere. You commit crimes you go to court and let the law takes its course. The trouble here is that the ODM is going to demand the same. They are going to demand that someone like Michuki be charged with premeditated ethnic targeted killings. And on and on it will go with kina Michuki instead promising to take the small fish like that Kirui fellow of the "Rambo show" to court.

In the end it would appear to me they will go through to the TJRC. Kenya will define its own TJRC formula. In South Africa it excluded prosecutions. Basically State murderers including chemical weapon producers and torturers came up and confessed and were set free. Like one South African said, the killers left the TJRC meetings driving their SUV's to their exclusive clubs and big houses, the victims left the meeting crawling back into the shacks they lived in. All they were allowed to do was to come and cry their heads off at the meetings and go back home.

In Kenya we can have a different model on how to deal with different categories of alleged criminal activities. Remember this thing will not be limited to the events in Rift Valley in January of 2008. It will be the events in Kisumu, Kibera, Kakamega, Naivasha, Nakuru and all across the country. It will go way back to the 1992/97 clashes, the political assassinations, the tortures at Nyayo House and elsewhere. This means the catchment is very wide and all these forces are very much entrenched in both sides. We also don't know who was involved in what

For example did Kibaki know during the Nyayo House tortures when he was the Chair of the Security Committee that facilities were being built in the country to torture and kill political activists. If he did that raises a lot of questions. If he didn't was he negligent.

When you look at the whole picture you can understand the politicians are going to make a deal that exposes very few of them to any dangers. I foresee a "confess and be forgiven" model. It is up to Kenyans to put their agenda on the TJRC forward. If we sit and wait for Kibaki or Raila to be the avenging prince for justice we are going to be sorry.

In South Africa Buthelezi had killed so many South Africans many people wanted him dead. Instead he became a key leader in the transitional government. Nobody could dare touch him without the Zulus going crazy.

These things are quite complex and there are going to be all sorts of accusations etc. At the end of the day it is the circumstances on the ground that will determine where things go. If there is a groundswell of demands for justice and the prosecution of all criminals things will move in that direction. As of this minute, unfortunately that agenda is almost at the bottom of the heap. The best deal is for the mediators to leave the TJRC agenda open to Kenyans through some committee to set up the terms. Makau Mutua's committee recommendations have been overtaken by events.

If they set up a committee and give it say 60 days to come up with recommendations and they let the committee go around the country, then the TJRC may come with some more stringent guidelines. Otherwise they are going to make it very weak to whitewash the mess and they will emphasize it is time to move on.

adongo

[gulavi]

Adongo hapo umenena.
Infact it should be named truth and reconciliation, leave justice out of it. Justice is there to blind the mwenyenchi. Its better anyway than nothing for historical studies and healing in general, if there is honesty to follow it

The struggle continues

Ongalo Makokha

[kamalet]

It is quite amzing how this thread has had its topic all turned upside down to divert attention at a simple question I asked. Some saw it as dividing and ruling whilst others simply missed the point!

Did Raila and other parts of ODM know about this plot in Eldoret?

[enigma]

Kamale....from my earlier post:

.....''Raila may or may not have known but there are people in the ODM high command who definitely strategized and committed resources to ethnic cleansing. There is credible evidence to that effect''

I am familiar with the Nandi situation because thats my base. But there are parallels to the tactics employed in Eldoret. There were waves of attacks. Looting, burning, harvesting crops, claiming property.....

[gulavi]

Kenyans are really good pretenders. Who doesnt know that kuresoi, Mount Elgon etc.. have been having land (so called ethnic clashes) disputes. not only did Raila know that this exists, He went and visited kuresoi, kibaki Knew but instead the coward sent his Crazy Mama lucy to Kuresoi, to do what? I have no idea. let us be real killings have been going on and of course in killing fields the fighters are organized badly,sofisticated they are organized. Did it have to take kibakis theft for us to see what was already there. The issue is deeper than what we are seeing. A thread detailing the theft of land by Kenyatta, Moi, kibaki families etc.. should have made clear this issue.
If any Kenyan will pretend that this was not hanging in the air!! God Forbid. If any Kenyan will pretend that all tribes love one another!! God forbid we shall have a long way to resolve the hatred drummed up on our heads by the kikuyu elites and their buthelezis from other tribes. The Bothas saw it the same way kibaki is reasoning, economy bla, bla , bla. Justice is the word. It matters zero if by the end of the day you dont listen, Shit will always catch up with us Kenyans.

The struggle continues

Ongalo Makokha

[theanarchomugikuyu]

Adongo then ,

So yeah, these matters are headed to court. There will be no white wash. The killings will not be nogotiated[sic] away. The victims and their families will not accept it. Some heads are going to roll. Big heads.

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1201175733&page=1#1201269726

Adongo now,

When you look at the whole picture you can understand the politicians are going to make a deal that exposes very few of them to any dangers. I foresee a "confess and be forgiven" model. It is up to Kenyans to put their agenda on the TJRC forward. If we sit and wait for Kibaki or Raila to be the avenging prince for justice we are going to be sorry.

In South Africa Buthelezi had killed so many South Africans many people wanted him dead. Instead he became a key leader in the transitional government. Nobody could dare touch him without the Zulus going crazy.

These things are quite complex and there are going to be all sorts of accusations etc. At the end of the day it is the circumstances on the ground that will determine where things go. If there is a groundswell of demands for justice and the prosecution of all criminals things will move in that direction. As of this minute, unfortunately that agenda is almost at the bottom of the heap. The best deal is for the mediators to leave the TJRC agenda open to Kenyans through some committee to set up the terms. Makau Mutua's committee recommendations have been overtaken by events.

jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1202331772&page=1#1202338108

How things change in 12 days, eh?