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Post by mank on Mar 2, 2008 4:04:43 GMT 3
And then this. Martha must be feeling pretty pissed. She did all they asked her to do. But you know what, it is time to take individual politicians and their ambitions good or bad out of the national equation. In that spirit I welcome Kiraitu's sentiments expressed below. www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143982646&cid=159Adongo, dont tell me you approve this nonsense. If there was anything for discussion, then room for differences must be allowed. To punish anyone for holding back talks that now succeeded is not consistent with any value for the freedom of expression. If we did not take as long in the talks, it would not be as clear to us as it is today, the price of unity. We should just learn the character of those who did not do as expected, but not preted to do good trying to punish anyone. Punishing arms should be busy where crime was the issue.
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Post by kmurungi on Mar 2, 2008 6:15:53 GMT 3
who is this misnister martha?
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Post by kmurungi on Mar 2, 2008 20:58:28 GMT 3
And then this. Martha must be feeling pretty pissed. She did all they asked her to do. But you know what, it is time to take individual politicians and their ambitions good or bad out of the national equation. In that spirit I welcome Kiraitu's sentiments expressed below. www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143982646&cid=159Adongo, dont tell me you approve this nonsense. If there was anything for discussion, then room for differences must be allowed. To punish anyone for holding back talks that now succeeded is not consistent with any value for the freedom of expression. If we did not take as long in the talks, it would not be as clear to us as it is today, the price of unity. We should just learn the character of those who did not do as expected, but not preted to do good trying to punish anyone. Punishing arms should be busy where crime was the issue. Adongo I share with you this sentiment. i am extreemly happy that matha karua is denied entry into the heaven and the kids kicked out of heavens too. this should be a lesson to kibaki not to a point her or other who have travel bans. these includes kabando wa kabando, wetangula, michuki, uhuru, saitoti, amos kinyua, ........ fill the list
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 2, 2008 22:08:09 GMT 3
And then this. Martha must be feeling pretty pissed. She did all they asked her to do. But you know what, it is time to take individual politicians and their ambitions good or bad out of the national equation. In that spirit I welcome Kiraitu's sentiments expressed below. www.eastandard.net/news/?id=1143982646&cid=159Adongo, dont tell me you approve this nonsense. If there was anything for discussion, then room for differences must be allowed. To punish anyone for holding back talks that now succeeded is not consistent with any value for the freedom of expression. If we did not take as long in the talks, it would not be as clear to us as it is today, the price of unity. We should just learn the character of those who did not do as expected, but not preted to do good trying to punish anyone. Punishing arms should be busy where crime was the issue. mankFirst of all I have issues with foreign governments dictating terms on travel visas. There is a lot of racism in that business of travel visas, but that is another story. This is a different situation. People like Martha Karua and company are the darlings of these foreign powers. Those are the people they accommodate until someone does something really dumb. The election rigging and the aftermath qualify in that category. I tell you I live in Canada, temporarily although this temporary is getting too long, but anyhow I tell you Canadians would not stand for another country imposing conditions on them. But look at our so called leaders and their sheer disregard for their own "subjects" if I may call them so. The fact that it did not matter to Kibaki and kina Martha Karua that there are 500,000 or so displaced Kenyans and that a peace settlement was necessary to save them is something very scary. In fact that 1,000 Kenyans, according to official reports have been killed in the aftermath of the elections was not enough for those who had seized power to re-think their plan speaks for itself. But when the US the EU and other countries pull off the Visas everybody is awake and making deals. That is the problem with African dictators. They are more likely to listen to the Swiss Ambassador than to millions of Kenyans crying for justice. That is the shame of the continent. But the citizens are changing that. The world would never have been at our doors if ordinary Kenyans didn't stand up and say a loud No to the Kibaki coup. The bigger issue we should talking with the Swiss government about is the huge fortunes of our country stored in their banks from thieves in high places most of whom are still alive and have full access to the loot. Switzerland offers safe banking haven for the world's worst dictators, ex-dictators, murderers and all sorts of criminals who steal from public coffers all over Africa. That is the discussion I think we should have with Switzerland in relation to Kenya. We need that money back to rebuild the country. This matter should be factored into the TJRC legislation. Forgive if you pay is going to replace forgive and forget. That is a start. adongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 2, 2008 23:07:55 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 2, 2008 23:23:00 GMT 3
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Post by mank on Mar 3, 2008 6:11:17 GMT 3
Hi Adongo,
You mention a number of punishable evils, but it is only one (supposed evil) that has been cited in the rumour of Karua's visa denial. That evil, according to the allegation, seems to be that she advocated for an unpopular position during the talks - it is the only one to which I presently give an opinion, since each deserves its own address.
Once a society advocates for freedom of speech, it must be open to respecting different opinions. The most popular opinion should rule the day, but the less popular should not subject their holders to persecution. What is dictatorship and/or fascism otherwise?? If you disagree, then you really are not out for justice and human dignity! Most of your posts paint the more promising personality, so let not your disapproval for the Karua character compromise your charisma. To me, it is absurd that any government would deny anyone a visa based on the person's position in a talk ... ludicrous! Kenya spent uncountable man hours in 2005 in a referendum on the very issues that were the subject of the Annan talks ... why then, would any reasonable people expect these Annan talks to be so simple as not to pose differing opinions?? I will go further to say the Karuas, by not going along with one voice, enabled the talks to show the complexity of the Kenyan thought on the issue. i know simple mindeds will take my argument and say all sorts of crappy things ... they can have their day.
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kelly
Junior Member
Posts: 99
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Post by kelly on Mar 3, 2008 7:46:20 GMT 3
mank,
I of a simple mind will answer you. To say that the Swiss acted in that manner due to Karua's differing opinion is mere specualtion, if not down right lies. I do not know, you do not know, and we may all not know unless the Swiss guys tell us why. They are the issuers of the VISA, right? I read Martha's comments and it leaves a lot to be desired when she claims that anyway Europe is cold at this time so she will not travel and that there is is work on Agenda 4 which she forgot she ducked away from last Friday when the whole Kenya were sighing a relief.
Mark you, Martha Karua is a woman. We do have expectations when it comes to how the different sexes handle issues. With 300K displaced, over 1K dead, mostly her own blood, a woman would be the last person to adopt a hardline stance. I expected her to be in the fore front of engaging and espousing a positive attitude in the talks because first, she is a mother, and second she is intelligent to know war is bad. You cannot compare her attitude towards this whole fiasco to that of say Martha Karua, Njoki, etc.
To your pessmism on the viability of the implementation, I can honestly conclude that you, and all people who have their own ulterior motives would like to see the talks fail and go, "see we told you". I have the best interest of Kenya at heart. I believe in resolving issues, but I'm not selfish like you. I'm pragmatic in the sense that if it does not work, well, we go our separate ways. You are dillusional in that you either have the whole cake and lord over all of us or nothing.
That is the difference between you and me. Kenya is on my side...
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Post by mank on Mar 4, 2008 5:09:53 GMT 3
mank, ..... To say that the Swiss acted in that manner due to Karua's differing opinion is mere speculation, if not down right lies. Indeed it is all speculation, even the idea that she was denied visa is speculation. We are all reacting to the speculation. Yeah, she did not sound at all smart with that, and only the most naive would buy her argument! I did not say I am in defense of Karua's actions. Kelly, that's one ridiculous sexist statement! Along with different expectations with the different sexes, should punishments also be heavier for the more socially responsible gender? Are there 2 Martha Karuas, or did you forget who you are talking about ... you just said "you cannot compare Martha Karua's attitude to that of Martha Karua. ... Did you say I was disillusioned, or that you were? Kelly, your characterization of me is really strange. What would I gain if the coalition flopped? Where do you read that I would want it to flop? I think you are simply entertaining yourself. When you create your own image of me, and run to write about the image you created while I am right here and my posts are at the forum to speak for me, you are simply entertaining yourself. Disillusioned is you.
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