Kathure: Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

[Onyango Oloo]

Kathure Kebaara Asks:

Who is Stupid:


Simeon Nyachae....

OR




Kenyan Women?

I was delighted to see Malaki Mugemuke's rebuttal to Nyachae's stupid comments to his constituents a few weeks ago.

In the article carried in the Standard of Saturday October 22,2005, he chastised Nyachae over his comments to "his Abagusii tribesmen (wonder if there are any women there) not to accept to be led by uncircumcised men".

It was no suprise to hear Nyachae make such outrageous statements.

You see in the summer of 2000 Simeon Nyachae and James Orengo visited Toronto and met with Kenyans to on their way to attend that year's KCA Conference which at that time recognized them for their contribution to the democratic struggles against the Moi-KANU dictatorship.

When Nyachae spoke one of the first things he said was that Kenyan women are stupid.

This he did in a public forum at the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education (Room 212, OISE on 252 Bloor St.W near the St. George subway) that had been organised by Kenyans where he and Orengo could address us.

He justified his comments by saying that Kenyan women are stupid because they do not organise themselves as a bloc to vote those people that they want into power.

Well, he sure picked the wrong venue to make that stupid comment. I sat there stunned as one sometimes gets when confronted with overt racism, but sure that I was going to respond to his comments offering up a countervailing position regarding women's stupidity or lack thereof.

The audacity of the man!

Perez Oyugi, a Kenyan woman present at the forum didn't miss a beat.

She shot up as soon as his highness was done speaking and proceeded to take him to task for calling Kenyan women stupid.

She began by demanding that he take his offending comments back:

"Take it back! take it back!" she demanded.

Strengthened by her resolve, I made sure that I too, let Nyachae know that I didn't appreciate his insults.

I reminded him that there are actual social-political-economic explanations for how women do or do not vote.

Further, I argued that the patriarchal oppression of women may be thousands of years old, but that does not make it right and we will not stand for it.

Using the analogy of South African apartheid and White peoples' racism towards Blacks I reminded him that historically and in the here and now there are racist claims of our inferiority at the intellectual, social and other levels. I insisted that Black peoples' development in all areas of our lives has been stunted by oppressive social-political-and economic conditions and not by our so called inferiority.

Now let's return to Nyachae's most recent comments regarding the vote and the foreskin.

Good grief!

With a leader like Mr.Nyachae, the Abagusii people need to run for their lives literally and figuratively.

The man is not going to tell people that he represents as a legislator to vote for what will help bring them justice and equality in all facets of their lives.

No, he will not advise them to vote for a united Kenya where people can live very differently than they currently do.

Rather he tells them that they should vote against Raila because he is not circumcised.

Okay, could someone tell me if this is the year 2005?

With his comments and actions Nyachae shows himself up for what he is:

A Neanderthal.

I come from the Meru community where genital mutilation of boys and and until recently girls is an obsession.

In his article, Mugemuke states that

"The Luo are keen to ensure that their rites of passage conform with their advancement to a civilised society".

Pulling out peoples teeth is ridiculous and even more ridiculous is slicing off parts of people's genitals!

People evolve and hopefully discard of cultural practices that are harmful.

Cultural practices are not neutral in their origins, so just because a practice has its roots in culture, does not mean that we must support it.

A glaring example is the primitive practice of female genital mutilation which is squarely rooted in the patriarchal culture of curtailing women's sexual pleasure. It means nothing to me that it is a rite of passage.

A Kisii woman here in Toronto once told me that her grand mother used to tell her that when she is mutilated she will no longer pay attention to boys.

This tells me that everyone, particularly the women affected by this horrendous practice are well aware of the impact it has on their sexual lives.

Luckily for me and my two lovely sons I was evolved enough when I birthed them to know better than to subject them to genital mutilation.

Now, we all know that the impact of genital mutilation on boys is nothing compared to what happens to females.

I mean, men think that they are tougher than women but I'd like to see how they would hold up to having their thingyes amputated. The nnnnn is pretty much the same organ as the thingy but with even more nerve endings:

"... initially, all human foetuses are female... During the eight week of gestation, the presence of a Y chromosome and a functional locus for the SRY gene product, also called the testes determining factor (TDF), determines if testicular development will occur. This process converts the inherently female foetus into a male one, as a steadily increasing surge of testosterone is then produced by the testes. ... further progression toward the eventual male phenotype occurs as antimullerian hormone is produced inhibiting the formation of mullerian ducts which would lead to female genital development.

SOURCE:

www.emedicine.com/PED/topic2789.htm

Now there are those who will claim that my boys are not mutilated because they are half Luos.

Wrong.

I would have fought tooth and nail any man who tried to pressure me into participating in this particular cultural practice.

There are those Kenyans who live in the West who get their children circumcised during infancy.

This in itself is a move from traditional practices since Merus for instance circumcise children during adolescence.

So much for culture eh!

There are those who are oh so cultural that they get on planes to go to Kenya to have their teens mutilated there.

Those poor children will forever have etched in their conscious and subconscious minds that they experienced trauma while on a holiday to Kenya.

How awful!

But there is hope folks.

Llive and learn, so check out this website:

www.noharmm.org/morepages.htm

and you will understand that slicing off the foreskin is not just the discarding of unnecessary skin.

For me, not having a foreskin is not a measure of a man and being a tribalist brute is not either.

Let Nyachae tell Kisiis that he is only defending his class position all the while manipulating the ethnic chauvinism that he and others like him have etched into Kenyan culture.

Yes, I say a culture of ethnic chauvinism because culture is an ongoing process and as far as I can see "tribalism" is very much now a part of Kenyan culture as racism is a part of white peoples' culture.

Let's see whether the lives of millions of Kisiis, Merus, Kikuyus and others who engage in this practice will improve if they vote Yes come November 21, 2005 and if come 2007 they vote for power trippers like Nyachae and the rest of those "cut" men.

They will still not be in a position to provide basics for their "cut" children now will they?

In the film Resurgence, a desperately poor white man from the southern part of the United States proudly states:


"Every morning I wake up and thank God I'm White."

In the same way then, some "cut" Kenyans in a tribalist delirium could declare that they thank God that they are not Luo.

I wonder if come November 22, 2005, and if the proposed Wako constitution is instituted, and when they realise that their lives are still mired in poverty, they will declare:

"Thank God that I am poor."

Hey, but at least they'll do it in style because they'll be fashionably "cut"!

I have no doubt that I will catch plenty of heat for my sentiments even from left leaning people.

But try me, I can take it.

I am the proud mother of two vihii.

[Onyango Oloo]

From: beatrice ghettuba <bkerubo2003@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 6:43 pm
Subject: Re: [kco-l] Kathure : Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

Kathure:

Very well articulated! No one in their right mind can take you on for you bring to light some embarrassing truths not only about our so called cultures but more specifically, how pathetic man can be.

I remember the "Stupid " remark in the Oise Building, bestowed upon Kenyan women.

I also remember vividly Nyachae's address to Kenyans at the Kericho show ground soon after OO died. At the funeral, Orengo had so brilliantly recited from William Shakespeare calling Moi names so subtly, the old man had no Habari!! Then some KANU operative went on rampage against Orengo. Mheshimiwa Nyachae had to pitch in. He referred to Orengo as a little boy without a simba in Nyalgunga, daring to abuse a man of Moi's stature. It was so laughable even to see the two share a podium to address Kenyans in Toronto. You see for a kisii man "esaiga" call it simba, defines a man.
Be it as it may, the Nyachaes of this world have nothing to offer by way of ideas other than misconstrue their "cutness" as an advantage over others.
It cannot be denied circumcision has been an issue in Kenya as far back as I can remember, 1963. Sadly not on any meaningful forum, but in he bars and back yards. Therefore the issue while alive, cannot be discussed in an open forum. Except for Nyachae no man can accept that he is a better leader because of his culture. All these therfore is wasted effort.
Strangely there are people who will pay attention to such rhetoric and vote appropriately.

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 4:20 pm
Subject: Kenyan men are Re: Kathure : Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

I think many Kenyan men share Nyachae's view on "foreskins" and leadership potential---hence they are the STUPID ones! Its also the DEMAND for CUT women by Kenyan men that perpetuates the practice for women!! If Kenyan men [RiftValley, MERU, and elsewhere) didnt place value on cut women, the practice
would be long gone!!

NSMC

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "Chifu" <chifu2222@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 4:40 pm
Subject: Kenyan men are Re: Kathure : Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

Dada Sue:

wewe una mambo. Taabu yangu is I agree with you cause I like your
views on women. Sasa nikija hapo DC tutaonana ama kazi imekuzidi?

Mpendwa,
Chifu

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "mrbob_k" <mrbob_k@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 6:47 pm
Subject: Kenyan men are Re: Kathure : Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

Dada Maina

Nyachae is right on the money about his culture concerning "cut". If the practice is discontinued now then it will lose its symbol in the tribe. I also agree that women should be cut as is prescribed by the society dictate. Cut is a passage rite into adulthood. Nyachae may be old but he is making sure his people's ways of life are preserved.

Bob-K
Traditionalist.

[Onyango Oloo]

From: "Odingo Odak" <odak@...>
Date: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:10 am
Subject: Kenyan men are Re: Kathure : Who Is Stupid-Nyachae or Kenyan Women?

Nyambura, dada yangu:


You got it a little mixed up.

Those men from the cut areas see the value or rationale for FGM when they are protective or possessive parents or brothers.

But as lovers (hubbies, BF’s or casuals) they hate it.

Truth be told, nobody wants to make love to a woman who takes 48+ minutes to waka after a strenuous jumpstarting.

And still the activity is boring when the other partner is doing it as a routine or marital responsibility and not out of pleasure.

I have been both sides of the fence so trust my experience.


I will excuse Mzee Nyachae for his comments.

The man is old and may be getting senile but we don’t know.

But Kisii men do not value women that much – so it may be a culture thing.

Kibaki calls everybody “pumbavu”.

I think these wazee need to retire.



OO

[kamalet]

Two things out of this post by Kathure.

One is the political angle taken. To justify Kathure's leaning for the No vote, then we can capitalise on the "goof" by Nyachae talking about circumcised men leading the abagusii. If that be the mission, then I cannot argue for that is exactly what Nyachae was doing when he made that statement.

The second one is the cultural practice of rite of passage, and the meaning of it to some communities especially when one seeks leadership.

In kikuyu culture, you have several levels that a man must go through before seeking leadership. This starts from the tribal slur, then mwanake, then muthuru before one becomes muthuri wa kiama If you consider the position of women in Kikuyu society, then you will appreciate why men have this cultural system. For instance, a mwanake cannot become a leader, neither can a simple muthuri become an elder without giving out his kiama to the elders.

Whilst these traditions are slowly dying in the urban areas, they are still very strong in the rural areas where the majority of the populations stays. Leadership to these people must be premised along the lines I enumerate above ( and this must explain the rumour about Phillip Ndegwa being circumcised in adulthood before he could take up leadership during the Moi days - a routine that people say led to his death!).

I think that Nyachae was playing politics with his rural community as I suspect that the abagusii may have similar traditions. To these people, a grown man who is not circumcised cannot lead them, and when you consider the political competition around us, then anything surely must go!!!

So Kathure, you may not give a hoot about the foreskin, for it is only a simple appendage to sexual intercourse. But in a rite of passage, whether they take out the lower teeth or chop off the foreskin, what is called for is mental maturation into adulthood. You will find many people without the lower teeth or the foreskin behave like (as we say!!) tribal slur because in their minds they never grew up!

[job]

Kamale,

Good lesson on steps of seeking Gikuyu community leadership, which has got absolutely nothing to do with seeking Kenyan national leadership.

Gikuyu leadership is not synonymous with Kenyan leadership. One community's culture cannot be imposed upon cultures of other communities.

By the way, what are the steps required of a woman seeking community leadership among the Agikuyu, since I read a few of them in history like Wangu wa Makeri ? Do they also need a ritual cut for qualification?

Folks not adept at respecting diversity do sometimes fall victim to the assumption that their culture may be "superior" to other cultures, hence the need to indirectly impose it upon them.

They nurture the "andu aitu" kind of mentality and begin seeing anything Kenyan for example, as rightfully belonging to them. They get many things upside down.

Strangely, when they venture the outside world, they realize that there is actually broader cultural diversity than they've even seen in Kenya.

Years back as a student, while visiting Mulago & Mengo hospitals in Uganda, on a visiting program between Med. schools of Makerere & Nairobi Universities, I had a cultural glimpse of Uganda and learnt many things for sure.

Many Kenyan's don't even realize that just across the western border, in Uganda, the biggest tribes of Baganda, Banyoro, Ankole, Toro, Acholi, Langi, Basoga, Teso......(Bantu & Nilote).. all with the exception of Bagisu, do not have their men undergo cultural circumcision.

If your survey takes you to Central & Southern Africa, you may just be equally shocked. Only in North & West Africa, is the practice of male circumcision very common.

How about Europe, Asia & the Americas, ...after venturing out, you may realize that most men and women of this world, do not undergo the cut, but diversity is respected, and nobody makes a fuss about it. Well, a Mr. Nyachae does, but it's not surprising at all, I bet he supports FGM.

A Baganda Surgeon, friend of mine, frequently laughs off this primitive talk about the circumcision-qualification for leadership then mischeviously wonders when such men examined the genitals of their rivals.

In this regard, our Kenyan sisters have surely proved more mature and intelligent than men, and surely Kathure is not the stupid one here.

Job.

[kamalet]

Job,

I am convinced that you either did not read my entire post or the response was part of your normal knee-jerk reactions to whatever is posted by me, i.e. Kamalet is a gikuyu and can only be promoting ethnic supremacy!! I am certain that being a doctor you would know by now that mental faculties are not tribal based. But may be I could also be wrong!! In your case any body rash must be an eczema even where the existence of psoriasis is possible - hence your prescription would be wrong on account of mis-diagnosis - if you catch the drift!

All I did was give a gikuyu analogy to male rites of passage for the agikuyu. Prior to integration of different societies, I am sure each community had its own leadership structure and these rites of passage must have played a role. If you checked with some of your older friends, I am sure they will inform you of the luo rites of passage before you could assume the title of ker (if that is the name of a luo leader).

Circumcision is not necessarily the removal of the foreskin if the act is part of a rite of passage. It is intended to be transition from a kahii (now that the superlative form of that word is a tribal slur in this forum!!) to a mwanake with all the attendant responsibilities of that transition.

2 years ago, I took my teenage daughter to similar but modern circumcision ceremony for gikuyu girls. The program is run by the PCEA church and obviously does not involve the removal of sections of their genitalia as is the case for young boys ( tuhii). But they were counselled on growing up, their roles as mature young women and their relationships with the opposite sex. I called this circumcision of the mind, and my daughter is a more responsible person for that.

With the integration of different communities, leadership must take a different form from that practised in individual societies. If say the gikuyu have a problem in being led by an uncircumcised person, then they must say so and ensure the that does not happen. In the same vein, if Kathure has no issue with a foreskin, then she must champion her right of preference. It has to be that way Job for the sake of the rights of those that think that way.

But what we must not forget is that Nyachae and his ilk will seek and make political capital out of everything to get the votes they seek. So if it serves Nyachae well to make reference to Raila's foreskin to score points, he will certainly make it. Unfortunately you and I agree that this is a repulsive way of making a point. You and I know that this is JUST a referendum and NOT an election, hence the issue of leadership should never arise.

Sadly, you and I know that our politicians have reduced this entire process to a struggle for leadership, and such statements will be made.


PS - to the Moderator,

I do not consider the descriptive name of an uncircumcised male gikuyu boy a tribal slur.

[job]

Kamale,

I don't just respond to anything posted by anyone unless I find it necessary, or is there a problem debating with you? I think I debate with many people whom I don't even know their ethnicities.

Besides, I don't operate in knee-jerk fashion. Let's remember that we don't fail to notice your chronic & instant reactions to most of Miguna's very objective commentaries.

The bottom line is this, overt racism is confronted by loud condemnation reminiscent of the black civil rights calls in the US. As Kathure pointed out, like racism, this culture of ethnic chauvinism, whether propagated by Nyachae or whoever, even when trying to manipulate tribesmen/women, will also be condemned.

Cultures do evolve and this particular culture of ethnic chauvinism, is now outdated,.......... however, you and me know, the culture of tribalism per-se, has not died out & will stay with us for a while..

Hence I just join the chorus of Kathure Kebaara, Beatrice Ghettuba and others penning against this outdated culture of ethnic chauvinism.

Specifically, it seems to me that your use of two words interchangeably, may be the cause of any mis-diagnosis, on either side. Do you mean "initiation" when using the word "circumcision".

I used the term circumcision strictly to imply a surgical/traditional/cultural, cut. It may be occuring to me now that your use of the phrase "circumcision of the mind" denotes something similar to initiation or the actual initiation process. Anyway, I got it now.

True to your word, ....Mental faculties are not tribal based, but you may also agree with me that tribal prejudices are mental based. So let's please figure out who's not being honest here.

I know pretty well, the cultural rites of passage (initiation) of the Luo and also how a -Ker- is installed. Last year, (2004 Feb.) I conferred some of that info to my daughter who was researching on a social studies project paper,...... thanks however for referring me to older Luo friends since I could do with more information that's out of my domain anyway.

So Kamalet, I am only condemning Nyachae and his ilk of retrogressive thinkers, notwithstanding any dirty political manipulation. You know there's many Nyachaes even in this forum. Likewise I've also condemned Kibaki's newfound dirty politicals of open bribery. Otherwise, how will we improve our society if we don't condemn wrongs, or rather if we abet the wrongs.

peace.

unedited.

Job.

[aeichener]

admin said:

From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...>
Date: Wed Nov 9, 2005 4:20 pm

Its also the DEMAND for CUT women by Kenyan men that perpetuates the practice for women!!

Just a brief note in between, sort of a reality check. In the communities that still practise the various forms of FGM, it's mostly elder women who are the backbone and the staunchest defenders of this procedure. You'll have to begin at convincing *them*.

Take Meru as an example: the njuri ncheke, thus the male traditional leadership council, have condemned FGM for a long time, but this has not yet made the practice extinct (though it is waning).

Alexander

[aeichener]

It seems that some churches now also confront male circumcision.

However, if the assembled madmen of PCEA - the church which has become the shame of Kenya and the laughing stock of the Christian world - are against it, maybe one should then speak out in favour of male circumcision? There *ought to be* be something positive about it, if PCEA fights it...

www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=33872

Alexander

[kamalet]

Alex,

Actually, what the PCEA church does with regard to boys is facilitate the actual circumcision 'cut' (ngwati and all!) but also provide rite of passage counselling. It is with respect to the girls who do not get the 'cut' but are given rite of passage counselling as was the case in old Kikuyu tradition. My teenage daughter underwent the same process a couple of years ago.

What I have always struggled to reconcile is that the counsellors use gikuyu traditions as well as present day issues for counselling such as AIDS etc despite the fact that the attendance to these camps is multi-tribal!

[aeichener]

What I see here - evidently, a rather individual perspective - is a hijacking of venerable (and very reasonable) old traditions of initiation and passage by some religious loonies. They want to get into the market, and indeed their attempt is probably motivated by commercial concerns (there's money to be made) as well as by the PCEA's notorious radical fundamentalist Christian enmity against old tribal traditions and heritages, which they want to undermine. For me, these are just "reversed mungiki on the pulpit".

Personally, I am not a friend of the cut (and if I had children, I would not have them undergo it), and I am in favour of either lightening it to a merely symbolic, non-mutilating "drop of blood", or maybe abolishing it altogether. Rites of passage and initiation however I see as very important; and in these cases, form and content are *not* easily separable. A weeks- or months-long seclusion and jointly-endured hardship cannot be replaced by a few smarmy allocutions from a pastor.

Alexander