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Post by JAHAATWACH on Mar 17, 2008 14:23:18 GMT 3
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Post by theanarchomugikuyu on Mar 17, 2008 15:01:55 GMT 3
'Nonsense' won't do as a refutation of the claims in the report -which, incidentally, is here: hrw.org/reports/2008/kenya0308/. The evidence of pre-planning in RVP was already compelling: the rapidity with which large numbers of attackers were ferried around, and so quickly after the 'results' were announced, virtually proved that the attacks were long in preparation. This isn't to ignore the pre-election attacks, roadblocks etc. The report seems fully to back this picture. Interestingly, they attend to the fact that some of the assailants were very young - there's mention of primary school children participating (see p. 55). That was the clincher for me - you simply don't get Kenyan children to kill without some alternative structure of authority to intimidate them or their parents (or maybe involve the parents), which structure would require prior arrangement. HRW are also good on the planning of the retaliatory attacks - see the reports of the meetings in Nakuru and elsewhere. As ever, they're quite good on the state's failure to come anywhere near handling the crisis competently or humanely: the police brutality is nicely documented; and it's good to see that HRW've been assiduous in getting perpetrators and victims to testify on record - a feat that seems to be beyond the Kenyan authorities. On the whole, then, a decent prosecutor's brief; it demands building on. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 17, 2008 15:44:14 GMT 3
'Nonsense' won't do as a refutation of the claims in the report -which, incidentally, is here: hrw.org/reports/2008/kenya0308/. The evidence of pre-planning in RVP was already compelling: the rapidity with which large numbers of attackers were ferried around, and so quickly after the 'results' were announced, virtually proved that the attacks were long in preparation. This isn't to ignore the pre-election attacks, roadblocks etc. The report seems fully to back this picture. Interestingly, they attend to the fact that some of the assailants were very young - there's mention of primary school children participating (see p. 55). That was the clincher for me - you simply don't get Kenyan children to kill without some alternative structure of authority to intimidate them or their parents (or maybe involve the parents), which structure would require prior arrangement. HRW are also good on the planning of the retaliatory attacks - see the reports of the meetings in Nakuru and elsewhere. As ever, they're quite good on the state's failure to come anywhere near handling the crisis competently or humanely: the police brutality is nicely documented; and it's good to see that HRW've been assiduous in getting perpetrators and victims to testify on record - a feat that seems to be beyond the Kenyan authorities. On the whole, then, a decent prosecutor's brief; it demands building on. It would be nice if people can read and respond to the whole report instead of cherry picking on what they think is relevant for "their people". The report is not limited to what happened in Rift Valley. It covers the violence in most parts of the country including state violence which was the most organized and best armed. It also talks about state collusion with militia groups in revenge missions. I think HRW has done a better job with this report than the earlier report. I think we need to dissect the report and address the issues and concerns raised, particularly considering that the committee mandated to investigate the violence should be starting their work in a few days. adongo |
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Post by JAHAATWACH on Mar 17, 2008 17:29:49 GMT 3
So if ODM had won the elections there would have been violence?
Talk of cognitive dissodance.
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Post by JAHAATWACH on Mar 17, 2008 17:46:00 GMT 3
Below is an eye-popping extract from the report summary courtesy of the link OO provided elsewhere in this forum.For many Kenyans, the rigging of the 2007 presidential election was the final betrayal of that agenda for change. Voting on December 27 proceeded smoothly with record numbers of registered voters and a record turnout. The parliamentary results were swiftly tallied and announced on December 29, resulting in major losses for the ruling Party of National Unity (PNU) party. The presidential vote, however, soon took a different turn. Reaction across the country was swift and violent. Protests erupted even before the announcement of the presidential result on December 30, as delays and irregularities in the count sparked rumors of rigging. The government banned public gatherings and the police confronted street protests with excessive force, killing and wounding hundreds of peaceful demonstrators with live ammunition. Meanwhile, some people took advantage of the lack of law and order to loot, rape, and riot. Mobilized opposition supporters—especially in the Rift Valley and the slums of Nairobi—attacked those whom they assumed had voted for Kibaki, and his PNU, in large part the Kikuyu. This assigned an ethnic dimension to the violence and angry Kikuyu then fought back. www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/db900sid/MMAH-7CQ3JH
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 17, 2008 18:52:25 GMT 3
JAHAATWACH
I had to read the report twice because I couldn't believe just how shallow and generalized the report is. HRW has been accused in the past of having scanty investigation capacity. It shows. This is a very shoddy report mostly based on romours, innuendos and very little face to face interviews. I was stunned that even in the Kisumu cases of state murders they didn't even bother to talk with the families, never bothered to obtain autopsy reports and other physical evidence. They do have eye witness accounts but the state is going to dismiss those as romours. It would have been nice to put real faces to the victims and not just deal with them as statistics.
Some of the political background data sound like outright state propaganda. HRW for example talks about majimbo in a very backward way. They quote their own 1993 report here:
" The violence has coincided with calls by high-ranking Kalenjins within the government for the creation of a majimbo system of government in Kenya, a federal system based on ethnicity. The proponents of majimboism have simultaneously called for the expulsion of all other ethnic groups from land occupied before the colonial era by the Kalenjin and other pastoral groups, including the Maasai, Turkana, and Samburu. Inflammatory statements by these figures have been ignored by the government, while similar calls made by opposition politicians have led to immediate action, including arrest and detention."
While we should commend any group that is trying to help unearth the cause and perpetrators of the post electoral violence it might be helpful if these groups took their work seriously.
I am hoping that the committee set by the Annan group are going to do a more professional work otherwise all these criminals are going to get away with murder literally. You cannot convict people on the strength romours. The government also has to swing into action. It is their job to prosecute criminals
We need professional investigators to interview people collect info including physical evidence where that is possible. We are also going to find away to investigate state crimes against the population something I have said many times cannot be done by the same government.
My sense is that the coalition government is going to go round in circles, round up a few sad shacks here and there and walk away from this matter. Kenyans will have to use the Annan team to at least let the truth be known.
The only part I liked about the report are the recommendations particularly those touching on ending impunity and looking at previous reports like the Akiwumi report.
As a whole this is a good development for human rights activists to put more pressure on the government to get serious with investigating and bringing to justice those who perpatrated acts of violence against Kenyans.
There is need for a game plan on how this thing will be handled. For example they should put in place a system to offer amnesty to people who can provide reliable information on who was paying for and transporting the warriors in Rift Valley.
In terms of the Kisumu/Nairobi and other areas where the violence was committed by the state I have already said we need an independent judicial commission with limited time to unearth the truth and then let Kenyans decide what to do. We know nobody is going to put Michuki in jail for ordering the death of Kenyans but we need to have that fact established so people can address it and move on.
adongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Mar 18, 2008 3:47:55 GMT 3
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Post by Titchaz on Mar 19, 2008 19:50:26 GMT 3
A friend of mine opined thus:
Well, the violence was not the result of some "reflex action", it was planned. Now the question should be on whether the planning was financed, communal, individual, advance, spur of the moment, etc.
I would like to see what kind of circumstancial evidence that the group will be advancing/tabling.
What they may be required to produce include:
1. Witness affidavits from those who claim to have attended or observed the planning meetings,
2. copies of venue bookings and video/audio recordings of these meetings,
3. Bank deposit/withdrawal slips, payment vouchers, etc. for the financing part,
4. Signed minutes of these meetings,
5. Copies of Occurrence Book Entries at the Police Stations reporting those planning these felonies
Not just essays.....
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