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Post by wanyee on May 23, 2009 19:03:30 GMT 3
Ndugu, As I previously stated above, “I chose to use the title of Alex Jones documentary primarily because it is fitting”. Yes, the crisis conspiracy occurred before Obama became president, but by him playing along with the agenda of the conspirators (i.e “war on terror”), that proves that he is their puppet. Why? Again, because 9/11 was “the foundational event and the pretext for the current geopolitical structure” (including the invasions of Iraq / Afghanistan, the introduction of the Patriot Act etc) [Ref: Terrorstorm – Alex Jones]. Also: “A crisis of this magnitude required a crisis plan, something the Neo-Liberals didn't have. The Neo-Conservatives, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state - and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis” [ Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney - www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml]AND 9/11 and The New Pearl Harbor: A Response to Bill Weinberg (by Michael Kane, FTW Energy Affairs Editor)www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100906_new_harbor.shtml --- Now, as you have very correctly stated, “politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11”. You have then asked “in which decisions or actions does he seem a puppet of a conniving empire?” and that “it is only by answering this question that” I “could be substantiating the allegations…made about the Obama presidency.” Have I answered your question now? wanyee
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Post by mank on May 24, 2009 4:08:40 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,
Certainly, you answered the question in its context. I respect that. However, I am struggling with the thought that a "no puppet" president would have tossed out the idea of taming terrorism all together, attributing all terrorism to a neoconservative conspiracy. I am no fan for "fight against terror", but can we really be that confident, that there is no real terrorism? Was the 1998 bomb blast in Kenya also a neo-conservative plot?
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Post by wanyee on May 25, 2009 0:18:29 GMT 3
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2009 2:07:30 GMT 3
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Post by mank on May 25, 2009 18:41:35 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee, You make this discussion difficult because you do not address questions. For example, lastly I asked you what you would attribute the Kenya bombings to, and then you gave me a link to British bombings. You are leaving me to speculate your answers. That notwithstanding, I get the point that US has created terrorists in the past. That's not new knowledge. What could be new is any argument that a no-puppet president would act as if there is no terrorism for governments to worry about. You can debate the tactics of dealing with terror ... and that's a debate Obama began long before he was a serious candidate for the US presidency. But you cannot seriously say that terrorism could have been left out of the list of US government's top concerns, regardless who became president. But propagandists would always have their arguments.
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Post by mank on May 26, 2009 1:52:00 GMT 3
www.theeastafrican.co.ke/magazine/-/434746/595694/-/15ovk8g/-/index.html
The theory goes that Obama was carefully groomed by the elite — which also comprises the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations — to carry on their work; the fury created by the Bush years had left the people ready for change.
The world military-financial axis was in danger: it had to find a “puppet” to see that its work continued, and who better than a charming, handsome, black man like Barack Obama? There is something I find personally insulting in this "Obama Deception" conspiracy. Recently black people celebrated the crowing of one of their own as president in the very land that the phrase "black people" could well be replaced by "descendants of slaves" for that is the practical connotation of the phrase. Alex Jones sets to ridicule them and rob them of any notion that there was any mark of history worthy a celebration. According to Jones we, who observed Obama make his triumphant match to the presidency, beginning at least with that Democratic Convention Keynote speech in 2004, should now abandon our own observation of a fighter rising to the throne, and instead adapt Jone's insulting theories of how Obama was made president by some powers of darkness. Again, it is an insult. There is always an artist trying to twist the success stories of people of colour in historic events. Jone's despicable attempt reminds me of a plot in the movie "Amistad". In that movie, there was a black man who educated himself in law while in captivity, so he could argue the case that his people were being illegally held. He argued eloquently, but while it seemed he argued well enough, an old white guy (a lawyer acted by Anthony Hopkins) was squeezed into the plot to steal the spot light in the case. A student of literature that I engaged regarding this irritation told me that indeed the self-made black lawyer scored big in the real story, and in literature the white lawyer was not there ... at least not at the point of triumph where the movie puts him. If US presidents are puppets groomed by a clandestine world power, I would rather have heard about it when Bush became president in 2000 ... it would actually have been an easy sell, for then Jones would conveniently have explained that the clandestine group chose Bush over the people's Gore. Further, if Jones was not ready with the lines, he should have been ready to explain the fall of John Kerry 4 years later .... but no, he would be ready only in time to dethrone the legacy of a black warrior. Jones art is many things, but it is mostly racist bull shit!
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Post by wanyee on May 26, 2009 3:17:59 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, kathurekebaara41, Thank you very much for that link. It is a very important contribution to this discussion. --- mank, Let me start by responding to your latest post above: The “Obama Deception” (in the sense of the title), did NOT spawn from the mind of Alex Jones, but is widely shared idea. Pursuant to this, he did not begin “this fight” with the “crowning” of Obama, but long before that (during the days of Bush). He clearly states this in the first part of “The Obama Deception” documentary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjMU4fE-uCg), when he mentions one of his previous documentaries, “Terrorstorm” (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5948263607579389947 - which I highly recommend to all Jukwaa readers, by the way). He also states, during “The Obama Deception” (documentary), that Obama is a puppet, like almost every previous U.S President, including George W. Bush. It is precisely because of feelings like the ones you express above (i.e “a fighter rising to the throne”) that makes Obama the global elite’s ace card in the game. That is why I posted the following quotes in the intital stages of this discussion: “Barrack Obama has been given a pass by the blue bloods. He’s been given the o.k by certain secret societies for them to let him in. I truly believe imperialism and facism needs a facelift, and a facelift is gonna have to be black. And the reason why I believe that is simply because I think they’re trying to get into Africa, well, they’re already in Africa, but they wanna totally control all the natural minerals that they’re gonna need to carry themselves into the 21st, 22nd, and 23rd centuries – you follow me? So I think that they have to go through a phase of galvanizing the masses of dark-skinned people that truly believe that change needs to come, but the change that they’re talking about is not necessarily change for the better, as far as the masses of the people. It’s probably a better change for ‘them’. It’s not gonna change for us, the little man on the totem pole. And no-one looks at the agenda. As long as he positions himself right, has the right tie on, has the right smile, repeats the slogans over and over, and drives it, and drives it home, the average American is just gonna swallow it hook, line, and sinker. And we don’t even know what the agenda is” [Professor Griff: Founding Member, Public Enemy] “They put a black face on the New World Order, and now we’re all happy. KRS ain’t buying it” [KRS One: Hip Hop artist] Pursuant to the above, as I already said when challenged for quoting 'gangbangers' - "a gang-banger can also speak sense / truth sometimes. The late 2-Pac was one of the most well-known “gang-bangers”, but his lyrics were laced with a lot of truth / sense, which is the real reason why he didn’t live long. Thomas Huxley wrote that "it is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance". What ‘KRS One’ and ‘Professor Griff’ (from Public Enemy) have stated is true, regardless of what mainstream society thinks of them as individuals. --- Now, I disagree with your phrase “real terrorism”, because it implies that terrorism must fit the “mainstream context”, that terrorists are disenfranchised / extremist individuals or groups. Rather, terrorism is a tactic that is primarily intended to instil fear. Any aggressor including governments may employ it. Which brings me to my previous response. The reason I responded to your question about the Kenya bombings by posting a link to the 7/7 bombings (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933), was to introduce a concept that is imperative to our understanding of this issue. False flag terrorism:"False flag terrorism" occurs when elements within a government stage a secret operation whereby government forces pretend to be a targeted enemy while attacking their own forces or people. The attack is then falsely blamed on the enemy in order to justify going to war against that enemy. Or as Wikipedia defines it: False flag operations are covert operations conducted by governments, corporations, or other organizations, which are designed to deceive the public in such a way that the operations appear as if they are being carried out by other entities. The name is derived from the military concept of flying false colors; that is, flying the flag of a country other than one's own. False flag operations are not limited to war and counter-insurgency operations, and have been used in peace-time; for example, during Italy's strategy of tension. The term comes from the old days of wooden ships, when one ship would hang the flag of its enemy before attacking another ship in its own navy. Because the enemy's flag was hung instead of the flag of the real country of the attacking ship, it was called a "false flag" attack. There are many examples of false flag attacks through history. For example, it is widely known that the Nazis, in Operation Himmler, faked attacks on their own people and resources which they blamed on the Poles, to justify the invasion of Poland. And it has now been persuasively argued — as shown, for example, in this History Channel video — that Nazis set fire to their own parliament, the Reichstag, and blamed that fire on others. The Reichstag fire was the watershed event which justified Hitler's seizure of power and suspension of liberties. And in the early 1950s, agents of an Israeli terrorist cell operating in Egypt planted bombs in several buildings, including U.S. diplomatic facilities, then left behind "evidence" implicating the Arabs as the culprits (one of the bombs detonated prematurely, allowing the Egyptians to identify the bombers). Israel's Defense Minister was brought down by the scandal, along with the entire Israeli government. Click here for verification. The Russian KGB apparently conducted a wave of bombings in Russia in order to justify war against Chechnya and put Vladimir Putin into power (see also this short essay and this report). And the Turkish government has been caught bombing its own and blaming it on a rebel group in order to justify a crackdown on that group. Muslim governments also play this game. For example, the well-respected former Indonesian president claimed that their government had a role in the Bali bombings. This sounds nuts, right? You've never heard of this "false flag terrorism," where a government attacks its own people then blames others in order to justify its goals, right? And you are skeptical of the statements discussed above? Please take a look at these historical quotes: "If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." - U.S. President James Madison "Why of course the people don't want war ... But after all it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship ... Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering, Nazi leader. What about the U.S.?Is it logical to assume that, even if other countries have carried out false flag operations (especially horrible regimes such as, say, the Nazis or Stalin), the U.S. has never done so? Well, as documented by the New York Times, Iranians working for the C.I.A. in the 1950's posed as Communists and staged bombings in Iran in order to turn the country against its democratically-elected president (see also this essay). And, as confirmed by a former Italian Prime Minister, an Italian judge, and the former head of Italian counterintelligence, NATO, with the help of the Pentagon and CIA, carried out terror bombings in Italy and blamed communists, in order to rally people’s support for their governments in Europe in their fight against communism. As one participant in this formerly-secret program stated: "You had to attack civilians, people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple. They were supposed to force these people, the Italian public, to turn to the state to ask for greater security." Moreover, recently declassified U.S. Government documents show that in the 1960s, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff signed off on a plan code-named Operation Northwoods to blow up American airplanes (using an elaborate plan involving the switching of airplanes), and also to commit terrorist acts on American soil, and then to blame it on the Cubans in order to justify an invasion of Cuba. The operation was not carried out only because the Kennedy administration refused to implement these Pentagon plans. For lots more on the astonishing Operation Northwoods, see the ABC news report; the official declassified documents; and watch this interview with James Bamford, the former Washington Investigative Producer for ABC's World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. One quote from the Northwoods documents states: "A 'Remember the Maine' incident could be arranged: We could blow up a US ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba. Casualty lists in US newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." What about Al-Qaeda? You might think Al-Qaeda is different. It is very powerful, organized, and out to get us, right? Consider this Los Angeles Times article, reviewing a BBC documentary entitled The Power of Nightmares, which shows that the threat from Al Qaeda has been vastly overblown (and see this article on who is behind the hype). And former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski testified to the Senate that the war on terror is "a mythical historical narrative." And did you know that the FBI had penetrated the cell which carried out the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, but had – at the last minute – cancelled the plan to have its FBI infiltrator substitute fake powder for real explosives, against the infiltrator's strong wishes (summary version is free; full version is pay-per-view)? See also this TV news report. Have you heard that the CIA is alleged to have met with Bin Laden two months before 9/11? Did you know that years after 9/11 the FBI first stated that it did not have sufficient evidence to prosecute Bin Laden for 9/11? The agency apparently still does not have any hard evidence linking Bin Laden to the crime (see also this partial confirmation by the Washington Post). And did you see the statement by the CIA commander in charge of the capture that the U.S. let Bin Laden escape from Afghanistan? Have you heard that the anthrax attacks – which were sent along with notes purportedly written by Islamic terrorists – used a weaponized anthrax strain from the top U.S. bioweapons facility? Indeed, top bioweapons experts have stated that the anthrax attack may have been a CIA test "gone wrong." For more on this, see this article by a former NSA and naval intelligence officer and this statement by a distinguished law professor and bioterror expert (and this one). It is also interesting that the only Congress-members mailed anthrax letters were key Democrats, and that the attacks occurred one week before passage of the freedom-curtailing PATRIOT Act, which seems to have scared them and the rest of Congress into passing that act without even reading it. And though it may be a coincidence, White House staff began taking the anti-anthrax medicine before the Anthrax attacks occurred. Even General William Odom, former director of the National Security Agency, said "By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In ‘78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism, yet in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation" (the audio is here). Why Does This Matter?Please read what the following highly respected people are saying: Former prominent Republican U.S. Congressman and CIA official Bob Barr stated that the U.S. is close to becoming a totalitarian society and that the current administration is using fear to try to ensure that this happens. Current Republican U.S. Congressman Ron Paul stated that the government "is determined to have martial law." He also said a contrived "Gulf of Tonkin-type incident may occur to gain popular support for an attack on Iran." Former National Security Adviser Brzezinski told the Senate that a terrorist act might be carried out in the U.S. and falsely blamed on Iran to justify war against that nation. The former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, Paul Craig Roberts, who is called the "Father of Reaganomics" and is a former editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, BusinessWeek, and Scripps Howard News Service, has said: "Ask yourself: Would a government that has lied us into two wars and is working to lie us into an attack on Iran shrink from staging 'terrorist' attacks in order to remove opposition to its agenda? ... If the Bush administration wants to continue its wars in the Middle East and to entrench the 'unitary executive' at home, it will have to conduct some false flag operations that will both frighten and anger the American people and make them accept Bush's declaration of 'national emergency' and the return of the draft. Alternatively, the administration could simply allow any real terrorist plot to proceed without hindrance." (see also this even stronger statement). Retired 27-year CIA analyst Ray McGovern, who prepared and presented Presidential Daily Briefings and served as a high-level analyst for several presidents, stated that if there was another major attack in the U.S., it would lead to martial law. He went on to say: "We have to be careful, if somebody does this kind of provocation – big violent explosions of some kind – we have to not take the word of the masters there in Washington that this was some terrorist event because it could well be a provocation allowing them, or seemingly to allow them to get what they want." The former CIA analyst would not put it past the government to "play fast and loose" with terror alerts and warnings and even terrorist events in order to rally people behind the flag. General Tommy Franks stated that if another terrorist attack occurs in the United States "the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government." Daniel Ellsberg, the famous Pentagon Papers whistleblower, said "if there is another terror attack, I believe the president will get what he wants. And what he wants is a new Patriot Act, one that will make the current Patriot Act look like the Bill of Rights." Former UN Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter stated before the Iraq war started that there were no weapons of mass destruction. He is now saying that he would not rule out staged government terror by the U.S. government. And British Parliament Member George Galloway stated that "there is a very real danger" that the American government will stage a false flag terror attack in order to justify war against Iran and to gain complete control domestically. The abundance of reliable information in this essay suggests that not only has the U.S. in the past conducted false flag operations, but there is a possibility that 9/11 involved some element of this deceit, and a future false flag operation cannot be ruled out. Let us spread this news to all who care so that we might build the critical mass necessary to stop these secret operations and work together for a more caring civil society. Special Note: This essay is an edited version of the well researched document available at pledgeforamerica.com/2.html. For a collection of reliable, verifiable information suggesting that 9/11 may have been a form of false flag operation, please see the 9/11 Information Center at www.WantToKnow.info/911information. Source: www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag --- See also:Conspiracy and Closed Minds on 9/11 - www.serendipity.li/wot/closed_minds.htm --- "War is a Racket": 9/11 Message of an Ex-Marine to the Anti-War Movement Satyagraha: "work for truth, in pursuit of truth.” globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LWI20061009&articleId=3428 --- Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? Suspicions Strengthened by Earlier Reports www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=994 --- British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car "They refused to say what their mission was." www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=972 --- As you have probably heard, things are not always as they seem. That is all for now. wanyee
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Post by KOLONEL BRISK on May 26, 2009 4:27:48 GMT 3
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2009 5:31:36 GMT 3
mank I only posted a link not the comments below the link. Those are yours. I'm open to hearing what folks have to say before dismissing them. So, I've been following this link whenever possible. That does not mean that I'm in agreement with the assertions.
www.theeastafrican.co.ke/magazine/-/434746/595694/-/15ovk8g/-/index.html
The theory goes that Obama was carefully groomed by the elite — which also comprises the Trilateral Commission and the Council on Foreign Relations — to carry on their work; the fury created by the Bush years had left the people ready for change.
The world military-financial axis was in danger: it had to find a “puppet” to see that its work continued, and who better than a charming, handsome, black man like Barack Obama? There is something I find personally insulting in this "Obama Deception" conspiracy. Recently black people celebrated the crowing of one of their own as president in the very land that the phrase "black people" could well be replaced by "descendants of slaves" for that is the practical connotation of the phrase. Alex Jones sets to ridicule them and rob them of any notion that there was any mark of history worthy a celebration. According to Jones we, who observed Obama make his triumphant match to the presidency, beginning at least with that Democratic Convention Keynote speech in 2004, should now abandon our own observation of a fighter rising to the throne, and instead adopt Jone's insulting theories of how Obama was made president by some powers of darkness. Again, it is an insult. There is always an artist trying to twist the success stories of people of colour in historic events. Jone's despicable attempt reminds me of a plot in the movie "Amistad". In that movie, there was a black man who educated himself in law while in captivity, so he could argue the case that his people were being illegally held. He argued eloquently, but while it seemed he argued well enough, an old white guy (a lawyer acted by Anthony Hopkins) was squeezed into the plot to steal the spot light in the case. A student of literature that I engaged regarding this irritation told me that indeed the self-made black lawyer scored big in the real story, and in literature the white lawyer was not there ... at least not at the point of triumph where the movie puts him. If US presidents are puppets groomed by a clandestine world power, I would rather have heard about it when Bush became president in 2000 ... it would actually have been an easy sell, for then Jones would conveniently have explained that the clandestine group chose Bush over the people's Gore. Further, if Jones was not ready with the lines, he should have been ready to explain the fall of John Kerry 4 years later .... but no, he would be ready only in time to dethrone the legacy of a black warrior. Jones art is many things, but it is mostly racist bull shit!
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Post by mank on May 26, 2009 5:46:14 GMT 3
mank I only posted a link not the comments below the link. Those are yours. I'm open to hearing what folks have to say before dismissing them. So, I've been following this link whenever possible. That does not mean that I'm in agreement with the assertions. My apologies KK, I did not mean to attribute the words to you ... the words that appeared as "quoted" along with your link were actually an excerpt from the link.
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Post by job on May 26, 2009 7:50:46 GMT 3
THE OBAMA DECEPTION - REBUTTALBy Michael R. Palazzo (PoliticalArticles.Net) Introduction:There are several groups that see President Obama as a threat to their respective agendas and most recently, Obama was the target of an Alex Jones film entitled the Obama Deception. I have just viewed the “Obama Deception” film and would like to critique it. Whether I critique a book or a documentary, I first try to gather some background information on the author or producer. Alexander Emerick Jones (Author & producer of the film) is an American paleoconservative radio talk show host and documentary filmmaker. Without any preconceived bias towards the man, I immediately tagged him as being somewhat on the fringe when I read that he had spearheaded an effort to rebuild the David Koresh-led Branch Davidian compound/church near Waco, Texas. Tragically, Alex Jones has created an empire (both in terms of wealth & followers) for himself by manipulating people through fear and paranoia. To truly understand what I’m referring to, simply listen to one of his talk shows. Jones is constantly talking about the Government spending each and every second of its time listening to our phone conversations, monitoring what TV shows we watch, which websites we log onto, what books we check-out from the public library, and even what roads we drive on. He trumpets this fear and paranoia to such a fevered pitch that he tries to convince people that Big Brother is literally lurking behind every corner. Here’s the cold hard truth: The Government doesn’t care what 99% of the populace is doing, because 99% of Americans aren’t doing anything out of the ordinary. The following is a brief overview of some of Jones’ “expert” guests that appear in the film. Gerald Celente is a United States trend forecaster, author and CEO of The Trends Research Institute founded in 1980. When one searches through the Internet, there are dozens upon dozens of sites that point out the numerous times that his predictions weren’t even close. His latest prediction is: “ By 2012, there will be a revolution in America, food riots, and tax rebellions. In four years, America will become an undeveloped nation. Holidays will be about food rather than gifts. Mass hysteria, dogs and cats living together. Doom and gloom”.Celente is definitely not in the same league as the World renowned futurist, Watts Walker (Time magazine 2006 person of the year). Webster Griffin Tarpley is an author, journalist, lecturer, and critic of US foreign and domestic policy. Tarpley maintains that the September 11th attacks were engineered by a rogue network of the military industrial complex and intelligence agencies. His writings and speeches describe a model of “ false flag” terror operations by a rogue network in the military/intelligence sector working with moles in the private sector and in corporate media. He characterizes such contemporary false flag operations in a historical context stretching back to at least the “gunpowder plot” in England in 1605. Tarpley is a former acolyte of crackpot and convicted felon Lyndon H. LaRouche, Jr. who is generally described as a perennial presidential candidate who once said that the Queen of England ran the global drug trade. Tarpley may have left the LaRouche group, but it has not left him. Richard “Professor Griff” Griffin is an American rapper; spoken word artist, and is a former member of the hip hop group “Public Enemy”. He is also head of the Security of the First World. I would place Professor Griffin’s political knowledge on par with that of Joe the Plumber.Lawrence Krishna Parker better known by his stage name KRS-One, is an American rapper. Over his career, he has been known by several pseudonyms including “Kris Parker“, “The Blastmaster“, “The Teacha“, and “The Philosopher“. At the 2008 BET Awards, KRS-One was the recipient of the Lifetime Achievement Award, for all his work and effort towards the “Stop the Violence Movement” as well as the overall grand pioneer of hip-hop music and culture. Same deal as with Professor Griff. General Comments:The entire movie could have been condensed to about 40 minutes (instead of its approximate 2 hour run time) and would still have contained all of the allegations presented about Obama. The extra information involves the New World Order Bilderberg group, the Federal Reserve Bank, and interviews with the usual list of experts from Jones’ other movies. I will only critique Jones’ attacks on President Obama, given that it was the President’s name, Obama, that garnered so much Internet attention to Jones’ film. Jones’ basic premise is that all post J.F.K. Presidents of the United States, whether Republican or Democrat, are put into office and subsequently controlled by the Bilderberg group through their ties with the Trilateral Commission and the U.S. Council on Foreign Relations; albeit, Jones does not present any hard evidence of that allegation. For this allegation to be true, one has to seriously question if the entire U.S. voting process is controlled by the Bilderbergers. While it is true that Presidential candidates receive Corporate funding; Media endorsements as well as various Group support (i.e.: Labor unions, Church groups, etc…), it is still ultimately the American voters who elect a President into office. This is especially true of Obama who was not elected by the establishment, but by average American voters crossing all political and demographic lines.At around the 43:30 minute mark of the film, one of Jones’ cronies, Webster Tarpley, makes a very interesting statement which goes something like this: “This is why Obama was prepared and groomed for a period of over thirty years“. Think about this statement. It would mean that the Bilderbergers approached Obama when he was roughly 18 years old and just about finishing high school. Why, in God’s name, would the Bilderbergers approach an 18 year old black teenager who at that time, was no better or worse than the millions of U.S. high school graduates at that time. Furthermore, how could the Bilderbergers have possibly known that Barak Obama even existed? I’m trying to remain unbiased; but this allegation smells of pure fabrication and if one fabrication can be made, so can others. Key Allegations made by Jones against Obama: I will now present four key allegations made by Alex Jones against President Obama that are numbered 1 through 4. Following each allegation, I will present my rebuttal that will continue until the next allegation. Allegation 1. Obama is already pushing to expand the U.S. Department of Defense budget and to station more troops overseas to encircle Russia, China, Iran as well as setting up bases in Africa under the pretext of humanitarian aid and dominate and occupy Africa through the United States Africa Command. Rebuttal 1. I will use “more troops overseas to encircle Russia & China” as an example. I seem to recall an impromptu meeting held between U.S. President Barak Obama and Russian President Dmitry Medvedev at the G-20 2009 summit in London, England just two weeks after the release of Jones’ film. Specifically, Barack Obama and Dmitry Medvedev began talks at the U.S. embassy residence in Regent’s Park, central London, aimed at achieving significant nuclear disarmament and reshaping relations between their two countries. In another impromptu meeting between President Barak Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao, Hu noted after the meeting that the two sides have reached consensus on the orientation of China-U.S. relations in the new era and on the establishment of “China-U.S. Strategic and Economic Dialogues” mechanism. By having made such a major breakthrough with the leaders of Russia and China, does any logical person believe that Obama would be insane enough to completely erase what he had just achieved by going forth and encircling both Russia and China with more troops and more missiles? I tend to put my faith in what I see is happening rather than what someone else wants me to believe. Allegation 2. They (referring to Obama) further plan to federalize Healthcare so that the Government can dictate what kind of Healthcare citizens receive modeled after the British system. This includes rationing care as well as what procedures the handicapped and elderly are eligible for. Rebuttal 2. The following is President Obama’s official position on Healthcare and can be verified at: www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/health_careOn health care reform, the American people are too often offered two extremes; Government-run health care with higher taxes or letting the insurance companies operate without rules. President Obama and Vice President Biden believe both of these extremes are wrong, and that’s why they’ve proposed a plan that strengthens employer coverage, makes insurance companies accountable and ensures patient choice of doctor and care without government interference. The plan provides affordable, accessible health care for all Americans, builds on the existing health care system, and uses existing providers, doctors, and plans. Under the Obama-Biden plan, patients will be able to make health care decisions with their doctors, instead of being blocked by insurance company bureaucrats. The above highlighted points completely contradict Jones’ allegations that the Government can dictate what kind of Healthcare citizens receive; their Healthcare rations, as well as what procedures the handicapped and elderly are eligible for. Allegation 3. Radically expand federal control over family farms and ranches through the Animal ED and Premises ID system. Rebuttal 3. The American Veterinary Medical Association testified before the U.S. Congress on animal identification, making the case that a mandatory nationwide program that tracks livestock is the most effective way to minimize the effects of an animal disease outbreak. The following is President Obama’s official position on farmers and can be verified at: www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/rural/Rural communities face numerous challenges; but also economic opportunities unlike anything we have witnessed in modern history. President Obama and Vice President Biden believe that together, we can ensure a bright future for rural America. They will help family farmers and rural small businesses find profitability in the marketplace and success in the global economy by providing them with economic opportunity as follows: a) Strong Safety Net for Family Farmers: Fight for farm programs that provide family farmers with stability and predictability. Implement a $250,000 payment limitation so we help family farmers — not large corporate agribusiness. Close the loopholes that allow mega farms to get around payment limits. b) Prevent Anticompetitive Behavior Against Family Farms: Pass a packer ban. When meatpackers own livestock they can manipulate prices and discriminate against independent farmers. Strengthen anti-monopoly laws and strengthen producer protections to ensure independent farmers have fair access to markets, control over their production decisions, and transparency in prices. c) Regulate CAFOs: Strictly regulate pollution from large factory livestock farms, with fines for those that violate tough standards. Support meaningful local control. d) Establish Country of Origin Labeling: Implement Country of Origin Labeling so that American producers can distinguish their products from imported ones. e) Encourage Organic and Local Agriculture: Help organic farmers afford to certify their crops and reform crop insurance to not penalize organic farmers. Promote regional food systems. f) Encourage Young People to Become Farmers: Establish a new program to identify and train the next generation of farmers. Provide tax incentives to make it easier for new farmers to afford their first farm. g) Partner with Landowners to Conserve Private Lands: Increase incentives for farmers and private landowners to conduct sustainable agriculture and protect wetlands, grasslands, and forests. I have thoroughly reviewed the above, and cannot find one clause that remotely suggests that Obama wants to radically expand federal control over family farms and ranches. Allegation 4. Accelerate the merger of the United States with Canada and Mexico under the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America Act (S.P.P.). Rebuttal 4. Because this issue is of such importance, I will state the terms of the S.P.P.: The S.P.P. is a White House-led initiative among the United States and the two nations it borders - Canada and Mexico - to increase security and to enhance prosperity among the three countries through greater cooperation. The S.P.P. is based on the principle that our prosperity is dependent on our security and recognizes that our three great nations share a belief in freedom, economic opportunity, and strong democratic institutions. The S.P.P. outlines a comprehensive agenda for cooperation among our three countries while respecting the sovereignty and unique cultural heritage of each nation. The S.P.P. provides a vehicle by which the United States, Canada, and Mexico can identify and resolve unnecessary obstacles to trade and it provides a means to improve our response to emergencies and increase security, thus benefiting and protecting Americans. Both the Canadian Border Services Agency web site and the U.S. SPP web site state that the SPP (Security and Prosperity Partnership) is a trilateral “initiative” and that no agreement or treaty has ever been signed. From two independent and official sources, one Canadian and one American, there is no evidence to support the claim that the S.P.P. is a signed Act or Treaty. • Canadaian source: cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/agency-agence/spp-psp-eng.html• U.S. source: www.spp.gov/myths_vs_facts.aspThe following is a synopsis of the role of the US Congress: The United States Congress is the bicameral legislature of the federal government of the United States of America, consisting of two houses, the Senate and the House of Representatives. Both senators and representatives are chosen through direct election. Article I of the Constitution vests all legislative power in the Congress. The House and Senate are equal partners in the legislative process (legislation cannot be enacted without the consent of both chambers); however, the Constitution grants each chamber some unique powers. The Senate is uniquely empowered to ratify treaties and to approve top presidential appointments. Revenue-raising bills must originate in the House of Representatives, which also has the sole power of impeachment, while the Senate has the sole power to try impeachment cases. In the film, Jones conveniently forgets to mention that the S.P.P. has never been signed. He also forgets to mention that any major proposed legislation, especially something as important as the S.P.P. proposal would require an act of Congress to be passed. How, in God’s name, could Jones make a statement that Obama will accelerate the merger of the United States with Canada and Mexico under the S.P.P. when the S.P.P. has never been signed nor would it be likely signed if it actually went for Congressional approval? Jones is either unaware of these two facts (which I doubt) or he conveniently makes the S.P.P. sound as if it’s a done deal to support his allegation that Obama will accelerate the merger of the United States with Canada and Mexico. This is another classic example of Jones making a seemingly valid statement with absolutely no foundation. Conclusion - The Obama Deception Film:Jones has created a masterpiece; however, my conclusion is focused on Alex Jones who produced the film. I tell people that if they want to change the world around them, they need to rise up, be strong, and let their voices be heard. In other words, we’ll never pose a serious threat to the proposed S.P.P. unless we’re organized and active! If the people could unite to elect a President, they could definitely unite again to stop any legislation that would literally remove U.S. borders between Canada and Mexico. Does Jones really believe that both a Congressional and Senatorial majority would actually vote to abolish the sovereignty of the U.S.? This line of thought, on the part of Jones, is taking conspiracy theories to a whole new level. On the other hand, Jones’ radio show secretes so much fear and paranoia, that it’s a miracle that half his listeners aren’t hiding beneath their beds. His film making style is also designed to instill unhealthy fear. One minute, he injects a dose of Hitler saluting hoards of marching SS soldiers and the next minute, a demonized photo of Obama is flashed. Then to add credibility to the film, his hand-picked experts come onto the scene and re-amplify, in their own words, the content of the preceding film scene. Moreover, he masterfully projects the image that his paranoia of Obama is shared by a cross section of Americans by using characters such as Gerald Celente right through to Joe Rogan and Professor Griff. He even adds a dab of Wayne Paul for about 10 seconds to further legitimize his film. And like any good film maker, he has several story lines going on at the same time, constantly switching from one to another so as to not get his viewers bored with just the one theme. There’s the Obama story; the Bilderberg story; the Federal Reserve Bank story; the Police state control grid story; the Restriction of free speech story and on and on and on. Let’s examine Jones’ paranoia to a logical conclusion. If the Government really is monitoring our every move, then they must know where Jones lives, where he works, what car he drives, and where he shops. In this sense, if they really wanted to take him out, don’t you think they’d just do it instead of talking about it? Jones has been doing his show for ten years and no one has snuffed him yet. Don’t you think they would have gotten around to it by now? If these blood-thirsty monsters really wanted to do a hit on somebody, they’d do it without a second thought! What do you think professional assassins do - post a message in the center of town that says, “We’re going to kill Vito Genovese at 12:00 noon on June 4th?” Hell no. They just do the hit, and then it’s over and done. His paranoia, with respect to conspiracy theories is so deeply rooted, that it’s tantamount to suffering from Münchausen’s syndrome. The real underlying theme of Jones’ film is his obsessive paranoia of the Bilderberg group that advocates a New World Order, and according to Jones, has controlled all U.S. Presidents (Democrats and Republicans) subsequent to the presidency of J.F.K. I also believe that the Bilderbergers advocate a New World Order; are extremely powerful and pose a potential threat to the United States. The main difference between Jones and I on this issue lies in our degree of concern. Jones is absolutely convinced that the Bilderbergers have already taken control of the US Presidency since the early 60’s while I believe that the Bilderbergers have not yet succeeded. As I have stated previously, I tend to put my faith in what I see is happening rather than what someone else wants me to believe. As one example, Congress has never passed an Act or Treaty that infringes upon the sovereignty of the United States. Jones, on the other hand, has let his paranoia convince himself and those who follow him that the U.S. Presidency is actually controlled by the Bilderbergers. The plain truth is that there is no foreign entity that controls the United States, its Presidency or its Congress. On this extremely important issue, Americans should demand Alex Jones to provide concrete proof of what he is preaching; however, that will never happen, because no such proof exits. Jones is clever and knew very well that had he entitled his film “the Bilderberg Group threatens our Country’s Sovereignty”, virtually no one would have viewed his film. But by attacking President Obama and calling his film the “Obama Deception”, Jones was quite clever in orchestrating a relatively inexpensive way to attract an extremely large Internet audience to view his film. Had John McCain been elected President, he most certainly would have named his film the “McCain Deception”. For those of us who can see the film for what it really is, it is really not about Obama; but rather using Obama as a vehicle to express his fear about the power of the Bilderberg group. If you recall the scene where Jones and his followers are peering into the cars of guests arriving at the hotel to attend the Bilderberg meeting, guess who is at Jones’ side. No one other than Daniel Estulin, who is the leading authority on the covert Bilderberg group and has also been a guest on Jones’ radio talk show. Jones is doing nothing more than creating an illusion of fear and paranoia so that everyone will buy his “Police State” videos. Remember what I had previously stated: Alex Jones has created an empire both in terms of wealth & followers. An Alternate Perspective of Obama:Right up until the end, Hillary Clinton was still running ahead of Barak Obama in the polls. But on Tuesday, June 3rd 2008, Illinois Senator Barak Obama surprised the world and won the Democratic Party nomination despite Clinton’s popularity; her gender and the fact that Obama was an Afro-American. Do proponents of the “Obama Deception” believe that the Bilderbergers got to him the next day? That would have been a tall order, given that Obama was virtually busy day & night on the campaign trail until he won the Presidential campaign on Tuesday, November 4th 2008. Did the Bilderbergers get to Obama during the transition period which also kept him busy day & night until he officially took office on Tuesday, January 20th 2009? Or maybe they really got to him when he had just finished high school. In 1985, freshly graduated from Columbia University and working for a New York business consultant, Barak Obama decided to become a community organizer. Though he liked the idea, he didn’t understand what the job involved, and his inquiries turned up few opportunities. Then he got a call from Jerry Kellman, an organizer working on Chicago’s far South side for a community group based in the churches of the region, an expanse of white, black and Latino blue-collar neighborhoods that were reeling from the steel-mill closings. Kellman was looking for an organizer for the new Developing Communities Project (DCP), which would focus on black city neighborhoods. Obama, only 24, struck board members as “awesome” and “extremely impressive,” and they quickly hired him, at $13,000 a year, plus $2,000 for a car–a beat-up blue Honda Civic, which Obama drove for the next three years organizing more than twenty congregations to change their neighborhoods. Despite some meaningful victories, the work of Obama–and hundreds of other organizers–did not transform the South side or restore lost industries. But it did change the young man who became the junior Senator from Illinois in 2004, and it provides clues to his worldview as he bade for the Democratic presidential nomination. “I can’t say that we didn’t make mistakes nor that I knew what I was doing,” Obama recalled three years ago to a boisterous convention of the still-active DCP. “Sometimes I called a meeting, and nobody showed up. Sometimes preachers said, ‘Why should I listen to you?’ Sometimes we tried to hold politicians accountable, and they didn’t show up. I couldn’t tell whether I got more out of it than this neighborhood.” But, he continued, “I grew up to be a man, right here, in this area. It’s as a consequence of working with this organization and this community that I found my calling. There was something more than making money and getting a fancy degree. The measure of my life would be my public service.” Isn’t it possible that Obama is who he says he is?
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Post by einstein on May 26, 2009 14:32:13 GMT 3
You are getting there lady and gentlemen. Special thanks to Ndugu Wanyee and Brother Man K for keeping the thread alive. We are following your contributions with great interest. Job, thanks for coming back. Kathure, thanks for adding more wood to the fire. Keep it up folks. I LOVE JUKWAA!!
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Post by wanyee on May 26, 2009 18:28:56 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, I have already stated the following: Despite the title of this thread and the links that initiate it, my hypothesis is NOT BASED on Alex Jones' documentary / views. I have chosen to use the title of Alex Jones documentary, primarily because I find it fitting (and the links were meant to elicit debate). My argument, even before the release of Alex Jones' film, has been BASED ON THE 9/11 EVENT. This brings me to my most recent post, whereby I introduced a concept that is IMPERATIVE to our understanding of this issue: False Flag Operation, False Flag Terrorismwww.wanttoknow.info/falseflag --- See also: Conspiracy and Closed Minds on 9/11 - www.serendipity.li/wot/closed_minds.htmBritain now faces its own blowback: Intelligence interests in Britain may thwart the July 7/7 bombings investigation www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car "They refused to say what their mission was." www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=972 Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? Suspicions Strengthened by Earlier Reports www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=994
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Post by wanyee on May 29, 2009 2:03:47 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu,
Does anyone else wish to comment before we proceed to the next phase of this discussion?
wanyee
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Post by job on May 29, 2009 23:42:42 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,Yes, Just proceed to the next phase, but please string up your previous arguments simultaneously so I appreciate the coherence and logic of the postings. If you believe Obama was put into office by right-wing powerbrokers owning Wall Street, then why is the same right wing accusing him of turning America into a socialist country and assaulting the free market? Do you see a contradiction? If the neoconservatives and military-industrial complex installed Obama into White House as a puppet, then why is he cutting down the federal budget spending on the military, and ending billions-worth of long standing defense contracts? Was Obama not supposed to (according to your claims) increase the federal budget spending on Defense and sign more military hardware & software contracts for his so called puppet masters? See the contradiction? In all this ‘puppet installation’ fairy tale, what was the role of the ordinary American voter and the actual presidential election process? And also, between him, Hillary Clinton and Sen. John McCain, was Obama the best bet for the neoconservatives, Wall Street, and military industrial complex – just from a vote seeking perspective, and not the fairy tale of ‘young, handsome, black man ’? If you believe that a shadowy elite perpetrated the September 11th attacks and got away with it, you have not connected the dots between that elite and Obama with evidence. Those conspiracies don't even add up, mara it is a mossad Israeli inside job, mara it is a neocon (wakina Wolfowitz) inside job, mara it is the Bilderberg Group, mara the Illuminati, Free Masons, CIA, pleeeaze. I therefore treat the claims as fantastic and sensational tales that make a thrilling reading, but nothing factual whatsoever. Regarding the Bilderberg group conspiracy. I would advise that before one peddles any juicy conspiracy, please try to find out who originated the conspiracy in the first place. It is far right Evangelical Christian, anti-semitic extremists and conspiracy theorists who invented this particular myth. I wonder why Wanyee, an apparent progressive, is falling for these with right wing conservative wingnuts now and embracing their propaganda whole-heartedly. You know, there are anti-war conspiracies generated from both the extreme Left, and extreme Right. But it is often those generated from the extreme Right, that are more ridiculous. These Bilderberg conspiracies are actually peddled by the extreme Right - from internet sites set up by predominantly rural based, Republican, Christian Conservatives, who detest Jewish domination in American politics, finance, media and business. They are the youthful followers of Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, Ted Haggarts, and such ‘evangelists’ pushing surreptitious Anglo-Saxonian purist agenda. Robertson and the late Falwell are Anglos and Haggart a Saxonian. They are all multi-millionaires, with strong business ties to Republican governments and some like Haggart with questionable double lives. They firmly believe America should be led and dominated by (a) White, (b) Anglo-Saxon ( Anglo- descendants of England, Scotland, Wales & protestant portions of Ireland, and Saxon - descendants of Germany), (c) Protestant ( White Anglo Saxon Protestant = WASP), (d) males, (e) preferably from the South, Appalachia or Mid-West. George Bush was their perfect profile, a white, English descendant, Protestant, church-going male from the South (Texas). They are flabbergasted, and not even absorbed to the shock of the drastic aberrations in having a President who's Black, with Kenyan-Irish ancestry, Muslim-to-athiest-to-Christian convert, born in Hawaii, settled in Chicago. My friend, you need to understand the role of ancestry and the evangelical Christians (many essentially pure bigots) in American presidential politics and these far right Obama-bashing conspiracy websites. I will try to tie for you the connection, and what makes Christian right wingnuts really mad with Obama, motivating the need to generate a lot of fear and lies in wild conspiracies. There is a reason why only people of Anglo (Britain minus Northern Ireland) and Saxon (German) ancestry have been elected President - with the unique exceptions of John F Kennedy ( Northern Ireland Catholic) and now Barak Obama. In the voting school of Evangelical Christian WASP-ology, only two factors count - ancestry and religion - Anglos don't consider Northern Ireland folks, especially catholics as their blood - the latter are Gaolic. Saxonians (German) will always vote with their Anglo kin (English, Welsh, Scottish, and mainland protestant Ireland). Despite attacking him ferociously for saying they 'cling to their Guns and Bibles', Obama shocked the beejeezus outa these wingnuts when he peeled off the German voting block from their column, all to himself. Obama surprised many by dividing the WASP vote and getting most of the German ( Saxonian) chunk. Most Anglos were befuddled, and still remain confused. Obama the brilliant playmaster started courting the German American vote, especially Lutheran & Episcopal Christian, in Berlin, Germany - one of Obama's biggest ever political rallies. He courted them from their own motherland and my friend if you understand America, he only beat Hillary because he won all the German-Belt ( Saxonian) states in the primary (Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska) and other German dominated states (Virginia, Maryland, etc). Of course Hillary was winning all the predominantly Anglo dominated states like New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, New York, Connecticut and the Southern ones. Obama busted the Evangelical Christian voting block open, grabbing for himself most Christian Saxonians - and as PM would say, the Overton window shifted probably for good. They are still mad. It is these Christian conservative wingnuts that have in the past ( using the majority Christian coalition of Anglos and Saxonians) ensured that in the entire list of American 44 Presidents, only the English (from Washington, Jefferson, Adams upto Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush I & II), Germans (Hoover & Eisenhower) & Scots-mainland-Irish (Mckinnley, Reagan, Bill Clinton) become Presidents. Any Greek like Dukakis, or Norwegian like Walter Mondale, even a taint of Eastern European blood like John Kerry, or any Italian, or Portuguese, Spanish or Northern Catholic Irish is a sure flop - Kennedy broke the barrier though. These Christian wingnuts are real nuts and they fanatically loved Bush. You will be surprised the real profiteers and beneficiaries of the Bush administration were the same Christian evangelists. During the Bush era, they overwhelmingly expanded their Christian Colleges (which are very racist and expensive by the way), Universities, Lobbies, Subsidy-Farms, Private Schools, ‘Humanitarian Organizations’ and Charities considerably. Tax cuts focused skewed benefits into their pockets. They gained big contracts in Darfur, through PEPFAR (AIDS relief funding), Abstinence Education programs, and you bet- through the businesses they dominate, Big Oil and Defense Contracting for both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and counter-terrorism out-sourcing. They are today mourning loss of big contracts following McCain's (another blue eyed Scotish WASP) loss at the 2008 presidential election. Obama is already shifting energy focus away from Oil to renewables, closing counter-terrorism outsourcing, closing Guantanamo, ending the Iraq war, and cutting defense spending. That's big LO$$ by the wingnuts. The Christian evangelical party is over and they are fighting back through these internet conspiracy sites you love to post here. They are paradoxically spinning the propaganda of ‘war profiteering’ back to Obama who is in essence reducing, and not escalating the overall defense budget and cost of wars. They want Gullibles and Simpletons to believe that Obama is in fact the puppet of the 'real' war-profiteers. That’s a clever strategy to build underground (non-mainstream) grassroots momentum against the President. But it is based on lies and deception – ironically, the very theme they accuse Obama of being all about. Since a frontal attack on Obama may appear racist and even provoke Black Christians, they have conveniently invented these myths about Obama’s links to Jewish dominated policy and advocacy groups such as Bilderberg Group, Trilatel Commission (TC) and the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). This is meant to drive a wedge between Rural, White, Conservative Christians and Obama’s administration - to regain the German Christian votes (many are weary of Jewish lobbying). It is clever divide-and-rule politics. Interestingly, even progressives (I'm afraid - some in JUKWAA too) have naively fallen into the clever right wing conservative trap, of tempting, juicy conspiracies, and are offering pro-bono services peddling the same conspiracies eventually meant to 'knock-out' & replace Obama with a traditional WASP conservative. Well, whatever the Bilderberg Group’s mission, its membership incorporates even liberal Democrats, Muslims and many anti-war advocates. Newsweek editor, Dr Fareed Zakaria, an Indian born Muslim and American citizen, who is a vociferous anti-war advocate, is one such Bilderberg Group member. He is also a member of the Trilateral Commission (TC) and the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). Fareed’s writings in Newsweek attest to his opposition to wars and sensible control of global terrorism through improved welfare of affected populations. Obama foreign policy advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski (sp.), another anti-war advocate is also a Bilderberg group, TC and CFR member. The Christian far-right extremists and conspiracy theorists, however, charge that the Bilderberg group is a shadowy force seeking to promote a "new world order" under Jewish control, purely for greed and power. How outrageous! Most of it's members are not even Jewish. Understand that this is just a ploy - a rallying call to unite Christian conservatives of all ancestries - behind the WASP status quo. The propaganda goes on to charge that Bill Clinton and now Barak Obama are puppets of the same group. I wonder how come they passed over Bill’s wife Hillary. The stupidity of the extremist myth is that – they charge that the Bilderberg Group prints money, sets interest rates, and uses false flag events (purportedly 9-11) to start wars for profit. If you are the group printing the money and setting interest rates, why would you start a war for more money? Why not just manipulate currency and interest rates - it is easier and invites little global protestation. Folks, it's sometimes easy to be duped when you live in another world. Here in the states, the TC or the CFR are well known over-the table and legitimate entities. They conduct academic studies, open round table discussions and think-tank sessions and even invite foreign leaders to address them all the time. So it is laughable when someone in Canada alleges that these well known mainstream organizations (which even offer internship jobs to students of Kenyan heritage here in the US) are some secretive illuminati or free mason type of entities. This fear mongering by right wingnut conservatives is quite amazing. For instance - here below is an abstract excerpt of a study done for the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) by Robert Gates (Obama's Defense Secretary) and Zbigniew Brzezinski (Obama's Foreign Policy Advisor) on US foreign policy on Iran. Notice how clear their study (below) arrives at the conclusion that non-negotiations and militaristic grandstanding is not the way to resolve the US-Iran standoff, but rather diplomatic re-engagement - which is precisely what Obama has adopted. Wanyee, in view of contrasting evidence like these, (publicly available on the CFR website) does it make sense for you to keep prolifically posting these links which lie that the Council of Foreign Relations is a Jewish controlled agency driving the interests of the military-industrial complex to fuel wars for profit? Here below are two CFR, TC & Bilderberg group members advocating against war with Iran. - just an excerpt from the study abstract (this is just a small excerpt, go to the CFC website and read the entire study report detailing why US war cries against Iran should be dropped) Iran: Time for a New Approach [by Robert Gates, Zbigniew Brzezinski, CFR] Council on Foreign Relations ^ | July, 2004 | Robert Gates, et al
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have positioned American troops along Iran’s borders, making the United States and Iran wary competitors and neighbors who nonetheless possess overlapping interests.
Meanwhile, questions continue to be raised about Iran’s nuclear program and its involvement with terrorism.
Clearly, contending with Iran will constitute one of the most complex and pressing challenges facing future U.S. administrations.
This informative report, which sparked sharp debate in Washington and extensive coverage by U.S. and international media, offers a timely new approach.
Rejecting the conventional wisdom that Iran is on the verge of another revolution, the report calls for the United States to reassess its long-standing policy of non-engagement with the current Iranian government.
The product of an independent Task Force chaired by Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s national security adviser, and Robert M. Gates, director of central intelligence during the George H.W. Bush administration, the report highlights several areas in which U.S. interests would be better served by selective engagement with Tehran, and breaks with current U.S. policy by encouraging a new diplomatic strategy.
This report focuses on developments inside Iran, tapping into the Task Force members’ extensive expertise on Iranian politics and society. It includes a comprehensive chronology of important dates in U.S.-Iranian history, economic and demographic facts about Iran, and reference materials on Iranian state institutions and governance [/i].[/blockquote] Does that sound like a war-for-profit blueprint ? Absolutely not. In fact it advocates the exact opposite. This is just one small example to show you that the CFR is not a Jewish false-flag minting operation. It is just a research based council focusing on studies in foreign relations between the US and other nations. If you have followed Obama's new engagement with Iran, it is diplomatic and fully embraces the need to integrate Irans's unique cultural peculiarities - such as the strong need for mutual respect. It is exactly following this prescription by Brzezinski and Gates, a complete departure from the war drumming by the previous Bush administration. The real war profiteers were deep inside the right wing Christian Conservative block of the Bush administration. Obama is ending their obvious war for profit and Oil - the Iraq war (which is really an occupation). They are mad and in retaliation, slandering Obama through clever conspiracies in the nefarious websites you are lately fond of. Obama is firmly resisting Israel (& Netanyahu's) push on the US for militarily sabbre-rattling towards Iran, based on it's nuclear ambitions. This is another right wing war for profit Obama is resisting. If you followed the intricacies of the last election - you will notice McCain was the greatest drummer of war against Iran, having been pushed by the same Christian wingnuts to sing at a campaign Townhall meeting - 'Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran' -a coinage of a Scots-Irish American war folklore turned into a rock and roll hit song. Wanyee, even American songs have ancestral leanings and ethnic codes -most Southern Country and Rock and Roll music has Scots-Irish roots. Rednecks really love them fanatically, and culturally take pride in war. Many Scots-Irish American families traditionaly join the military through generation chains. McCain is from one such Scots-Irish American military families. His campaign was themed on war code words such as 'Defending America', 'Strength', 'Keeping the Homeland Safe' and many such codes you may not have picked the meanings. Maybe some of these are details you were far removed from, but here in the States, all voters knew exactly who was spoiling for war with Iran. It was McCain and not Obama. Let us stick to facts, reality and truth...with evidence. Not more postings of conspiracies, lies, and sensationalistic tales. Ndugu - Bring on the next phase now. I hope they will have less myths that will nevertheless still have to be debunked.
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Post by mank on May 30, 2009 21:24:35 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, Does anyone else wish to comment before we proceed to the next phase of this discussion? wanyee I can't wait till next phase. Hopefully you will attend to some of those questions that arose in the first phase. It would be good to read through the thread again and see the questions you left aside. It is disloyal to the art of debate to systematically avoid concepts that contradict your point of view. Intead you should take such concepts head-on and attempt to crash them down with the force of your conviction. If you do not, then you fail to demonstrate reason as the foundation of your view point. For the "Obama Deception" to have any appeal, it has to be argued along the lines of "Obama the Puppet President" versus "Obama the would-have-been People President". In which ways does Obama seem not responsive to the US, and instead to his alleged groomers? Importantly, "evidence" has to come from credible sources, or be based on genuine logic ... not from the works of outright liars and masters of deception.
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Post by wanyee on Jun 1, 2009 19:03:29 GMT 3
job and mank, As I have repeatedly stated, this thread is based on the 9/11 issue, as was my previous challenge of the Obama presidency. So, in the interest of sticking to "facts, reality and truth...with evidence", do you agree or diagree that 9/11 was a false flag operation? Just a yes or no from both of you, please. --- REF: False Flag Operation, False Flag Terrorism - www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag
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Post by mank on Jun 2, 2009 4:35:25 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,
In mind that you were responding to calls for you to substantiate "the Obama deception", please clarify what you mean by "this thread is based on the 9/11 issue." These calls arose because you have consistently insisted on advancing speculations about 911, even when challenged to explain what such speculations contribute to "the Obama deception". Are you suggesting the thread is only (or mainly) about the 911 disaster - that it is not about Obama and what 911 proves of his presidency? If so, then I have misunderstood you.
It is not clear why I must answer "Yes" or "No" to the question whether 911 was a false flag operation. First, I miss the connection between the discrete options you avail as the only possible answers to your question (about 911) and the debate you stirred (about Obama's presidency). Secondly, I cannot pick either option because the backgrounds of 911 are not so clear to me; while I find certain speculative arguments persuasive (as I have indicated before), I cannot be bought into the form you have presented here. In its grand design I find it disingenuous, and logically unsustainable.
Anyway, not to continue in misunderstanding, please clarify whether there is anything about the Obama presidency in this topic. If there is, then you should advance it unconditionally.
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Post by wanyee on Jun 2, 2009 19:48:00 GMT 3
Ndugu, The title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue(which you refer to as "speculations"). I have already substantiated "the Obama Deception", by stating the following: "Despite the title of this thread and the links that initiate it, my hypothesis is NOT BASED on Alex Jones' documentary / views. I have chosen to use the title of Alex Jones documentary, primarily because I find it fitting (and the links were meant to elicit debate). My argument, even before the release of Alex Jones' film, has been BASED ON THE 9/11 EVENT." In other words, my challenge of the Obama presidency would still be solely based on the 9/11 issue (as I have done in a separate thread), even though I would title this one "The Obama Deception" or a variation thereof (e.g "The Obama Illusion" or "The Obama Delusion"). Again, the title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue(which you refer to as "speculations"). --- In the early stages of this discussion, you stated as follows: "kweli, mjandala ni upi hapa? Umenipoteza! Tulianza na 'Obama tusomjua'...sasa ni 'eti 911 ilikuwa kazi ya ndani' (if I had to answer your question on this I doubt you and I would have a debate, but am not sure how an answer to the question belongs to this thread)". Daraja ya haya mawili iko wapi ndugu yangu? Nishike mkno hapa na unielekeze."My response: "Ndugu mank, hamna kupotea. Mjadala ni ule ule mmoja. Yale magorofa MATATU (sio mawili) yaliyoporomoshwa, yanahusiana kabisa na hili swala la Obama. Kama nilivyomwambia Einstein hapo mbeleni: 9/11 was 'the foundational event and the pretext for the current geopolitical structure' (including the invasions of Iraq / Afghanistan, the introduction of the Patriot Act etc). Inaonekana kama unatashwishi kuhusu 9/11 kuwa 'kazi ya ndani'. Ni kweli au la?"You then wrote: "Wanyee, my honest answer to your pointed question is that I am not sure...I can speculate like this: if a person or party of persons would gain from a certain occurrence, it would like to see that event occur...when it has the ability to cause the event, it very well might go ahead and cause it. However, people have multiple and often conflicting objectives. If some of those objectives could be jeopardized by the occurrence of the event (introduced above), then the person or group may abstain from causing the event even though they could gain in one way. The first time I heard the theory that Sept 11 event was caused by a government I thought it was ridiculous. After I realized that certain system gained a lot from the event, I decided it was not that absurd after all - because if the potential beneficiaries could foresee their gains in the event, they could have the incentive enough to cause it. Yet, its not in me to believe that a group of people in government could simply sign on the kind of plan that would become the 9/11 tragedy. Its not a trivial question for me, and if you make it a binomial choice question I disagree with the idea that it was an inside job."Further into the discussion, you wrote: "Wanyee, If we are connecting the dots, then I am interested. You already know that I am curious, and listeninig when you say 911 was an inside job. Lets dig deeper into the topic"..."politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11...in which decisions or actions does he seem a puppet of a conniving empire? It is only by answering this question that you could be substantiating the allegations…made about the Obama presidency".My response: "Yes, the crisis...occurred before Obama became president, but by him playing along with the agenda of the conspirators (i.e “war on terror”), that proves that he is their puppet...because 9/11 was 'the foundational event and the pretext for the current geopolitical structure' (including the invasions of Iraq / Afghanistan, the introduction of the Patriot Act etc)...'A crisis of this magnitude required a crisis plan, something the Neo-Liberals didn't have. The Neo-Conservatives, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state - and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis' [Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney - www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml]...[9/11 and The New Pearl Harbor: A Response to Bill Weinberg (by Michael Kane, FTW Energy Affairs Editor) www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100906_new_harbor.shtml]. Now, as you have very correctly stated, 'politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11'”.Again, as you very correctly stated, "politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11'".--- Once again, the title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue (which you refer to as "speculations"). That is why we are now focusing on the 9/11 aspect. It is the key. And the key to understanding 9/11, is understanding "false flag terrorism" (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag). Now, your last statement was "not to continue in misunderstanding, please clarify whether there is anything about the Obama presidency in this topic. If there is, then you should advance it unconditionally".Please re-read this reponse and you will see that there is nothing to misunderstand. Again, as you yourself have written, "politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11". The same politics that defines the Obama presidency (e.g "the war on terror"). That is all for now wanyee
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Post by kenyamoja on Jun 2, 2009 20:17:04 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,Yes, Just proceed to the next phase, but please string up your previous arguments simultaneously so I appreciate the coherence and logic of the postings. If you believe Obama was put into office by right-wing powerbrokers owning Wall Street, then why is the same right wing accusing him of turning America into a socialist country and assaulting the free market? Do you see a contradiction? If the neoconservatives and military-industrial complex installed Obama into White House as a puppet, then why is he cutting down the federal budget spending on the military, and ending billions-worth of long standing defense contracts? Was Obama not supposed to (according to your claims) increase the federal budget spending on Defense and sign more military hardware & software contracts for his so called puppet masters? See the contradiction? In all this ‘puppet installation’ fairy tale, what was the role of the ordinary American voter and the actual presidential election process? And also, between him, Hillary Clinton and Sen. John McCain, was Obama the best bet for the neoconservatives, Wall Street, and military industrial complex – just from a vote seeking perspective, and not the fairy tale of ‘young, handsome, black man ’? If you believe that a shadowy elite perpetrated the September 11th attacks and got away with it, you have not connected the dots between that elite and Obama with evidence. Those conspiracies don't even add up, mara it is a mossad Israeli inside job, mara it is a neocon (wakina Wolfowitz) inside job, mara it is the Bilderberg Group, mara the Illuminati, Free Masons, CIA, pleeeaze. I therefore treat the claims as fantastic and sensational tales that make a thrilling reading, but nothing factual whatsoever. Regarding the Bilderberg group conspiracy. I would advise that before one peddles any juicy conspiracy, please try to find out who originated the conspiracy in the first place. It is far right Evangelical Christian, anti-semitic extremists and conspiracy theorists who invented this particular myth. I wonder why Wanyee, an apparent progressive, is falling for these with right wing conservative wingnuts now and embracing their propaganda whole-heartedly. You know, there are anti-war conspiracies generated from both the extreme Left, and extreme Right. But it is often those generated from the extreme Right, that are more ridiculous. These Bilderberg conspiracies are actually peddled by the extreme Right - from internet sites set up by predominantly rural based, Republican, Christian Conservatives, who detest Jewish domination in American politics, finance, media and business. They are the youthful followers of Pat Robertsons, Jerry Falwells, Ted Haggarts, and such ‘evangelists’ pushing surreptitious Anglo-Saxonian purist agenda. Robertson and the late Falwell are Anglos and Haggart a Saxonian. They are all multi-millionaires, with strong business ties to Republican governments and some like Haggart with questionable double lives. They firmly believe America should be led and dominated by (a) White, (b) Anglo-Saxon ( Anglo- descendants of England, Scotland, Wales & protestant portions of Ireland, and Saxon - descendants of Germany), (c) Protestant ( White Anglo Saxon Protestant = WASP), (d) males, (e) preferably from the South, Appalachia or Mid-West. George Bush was their perfect profile, a white, English descendant, Protestant, church-going male from the South (Texas). They are flabbergasted, and not even absorbed to the shock of the drastic aberrations in having a President who's Black, with Kenyan-Irish ancestry, Muslim-to-athiest-to-Christian convert, born in Hawaii, settled in Chicago. My friend, you need to understand the role of ancestry and the evangelical Christians (many essentially pure bigots) in American presidential politics and these far right Obama-bashing conspiracy websites. I will try to tie for you the connection, and what makes Christian right wingnuts really mad with Obama, motivating the need to generate a lot of fear and lies in wild conspiracies. There is a reason why only people of Anglo (Britain minus Northern Ireland) and Saxon (German) ancestry have been elected President - with the unique exceptions of John F Kennedy ( Northern Ireland Catholic) and now Barak Obama. In the voting school of Evangelical Christian WASP-ology, only two factors count - ancestry and religion - Anglos don't consider Northern Ireland folks, especially catholics as their blood - the latter are Gaolic. Saxonians (German) will always vote with their Anglo kin (English, Welsh, Scottish, and mainland protestant Ireland). Despite attacking him ferociously for saying they 'cling to their Guns and Bibles', Obama shocked the beejeezus outa these wingnuts when he peeled off the German voting block from their column, all to himself. Obama surprised many by dividing the WASP vote and getting most of the German ( Saxonian) chunk. Most Anglos were befuddled, and still remain confused. Obama the brilliant playmaster started courting the German American vote, especially Lutheran & Episcopal Christian, in Berlin, Germany - one of Obama's biggest ever political rallies. He courted them from their own motherland and my friend if you understand America, he only beat Hillary because he won all the German-Belt ( Saxonian) states in the primary (Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska) and other German dominated states (Virginia, Maryland, etc). Of course Hillary was winning all the predominantly Anglo dominated states like New Hampshire, Maine, Rhode Island, New York, Connecticut and the Southern ones. Obama busted the Evangelical Christian voting block open, grabbing for himself most Christian Saxonians - and as PM would say, the Overton window shifted probably for good. They are still mad. It is these Christian conservative wingnuts that have in the past ( using the majority Christian coalition of Anglos and Saxonians) ensured that in the entire list of American 44 Presidents, only the English (from Washington, Jefferson, Adams upto Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush I & II), Germans (Hoover & Eisenhower) & Scots-mainland-Irish (Mckinnley, Reagan, Bill Clinton) become Presidents. Any Greek like Dukakis, or Norwegian like Walter Mondale, even a taint of Eastern European blood like John Kerry, or any Italian, or Portuguese, Spanish or Northern Catholic Irish is a sure flop - Kennedy broke the barrier though. These Christian wingnuts are real nuts and they fanatically loved Bush. You will be surprised the real profiteers and beneficiaries of the Bush administration were the same Christian evangelists. During the Bush era, they overwhelmingly expanded their Christian Colleges (which are very racist and expensive by the way), Universities, Lobbies, Subsidy-Farms, Private Schools, ‘Humanitarian Organizations’ and Charities considerably. Tax cuts focused skewed benefits into their pockets. They gained big contracts in Darfur, through PEPFAR (AIDS relief funding), Abstinence Education programs, and you bet- through the businesses they dominate, Big Oil and Defense Contracting for both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and counter-terrorism out-sourcing. They are today mourning loss of big contracts following McCain's (another blue eyed Scotish WASP) loss at the 2008 presidential election. Obama is already shifting energy focus away from Oil to renewables, closing counter-terrorism outsourcing, closing Guantanamo, ending the Iraq war, and cutting defense spending. That's big LO$$ by the wingnuts. The Christian evangelical party is over and they are fighting back through these internet conspiracy sites you love to post here. They are paradoxically spinning the propaganda of ‘war profiteering’ back to Obama who is in essence reducing, and not escalating the overall defense budget and cost of wars. They want Gullibles and Simpletons to believe that Obama is in fact the puppet of the 'real' war-profiteers. That’s a clever strategy to build underground (non-mainstream) grassroots momentum against the President. But it is based on lies and deception – ironically, the very theme they accuse Obama of being all about. Since a frontal attack on Obama may appear racist and even provoke Black Christians, they have conveniently invented these myths about Obama’s links to Jewish dominated policy and advocacy groups such as Bilderberg Group, Trilatel Commission (TC) and the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). This is meant to drive a wedge between Rural, White, Conservative Christians and Obama’s administration - to regain the German Christian votes (many are weary of Jewish lobbying). It is clever divide-and-rule politics. Interestingly, even progressives (I'm afraid - some in JUKWAA too) have naively fallen into the clever right wing conservative trap, of tempting, juicy conspiracies, and are offering pro-bono services peddling the same conspiracies eventually meant to 'knock-out' & replace Obama with a traditional WASP conservative. Well, whatever the Bilderberg Group’s mission, its membership incorporates even liberal Democrats, Muslims and many anti-war advocates. Newsweek editor, Dr Fareed Zakaria, an Indian born Muslim and American citizen, who is a vociferous anti-war advocate, is one such Bilderberg Group member. He is also a member of the Trilateral Commission (TC) and the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR). Fareed’s writings in Newsweek attest to his opposition to wars and sensible control of global terrorism through improved welfare of affected populations. Obama foreign policy advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski (sp.), another anti-war advocate is also a Bilderberg group, TC and CFR member. The Christian far-right extremists and conspiracy theorists, however, charge that the Bilderberg group is a shadowy force seeking to promote a "new world order" under Jewish control, purely for greed and power. How outrageous! Most of it's members are not even Jewish. Understand that this is just a ploy - a rallying call to unite Christian conservatives of all ancestries - behind the WASP status quo. The propaganda goes on to charge that Bill Clinton and now Barak Obama are puppets of the same group. I wonder how come they passed over Bill’s wife Hillary. The stupidity of the extremist myth is that – they charge that the Bilderberg Group prints money, sets interest rates, and uses false flag events (purportedly 9-11) to start wars for profit. If you are the group printing the money and setting interest rates, why would you start a war for more money? Why not just manipulate currency and interest rates - it is easier and invites little global protestation. Folks, it's sometimes easy to be duped when you live in another world. Here in the states, the TC or the CFR are well known over-the table and legitimate entities. They conduct academic studies, open round table discussions and think-tank sessions and even invite foreign leaders to address them all the time. So it is laughable when someone in Canada alleges that these well known mainstream organizations (which even offer internship jobs to students of Kenyan heritage here in the US) are some secretive illuminati or free mason type of entities. This fear mongering by right wingnut conservatives is quite amazing. For instance - here below is an abstract excerpt of a study done for the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) by Robert Gates (Obama's Defense Secretary) and Zbigniew Brzezinski (Obama's Foreign Policy Advisor) on US foreign policy on Iran. Notice how clear their study (below) arrives at the conclusion that non-negotiations and militaristic grandstanding is not the way to resolve the US-Iran standoff, but rather diplomatic re-engagement - which is precisely what Obama has adopted. Wanyee, in view of contrasting evidence like these, (publicly available on the CFR website) does it make sense for you to keep prolifically posting these links which lie that the Council of Foreign Relations is a Jewish controlled agency driving the interests of the military-industrial complex to fuel wars for profit? Here below are two CFR, TC & Bilderberg group members advocating against war with Iran. - just an excerpt from the study abstract (this is just a small excerpt, go to the CFC website and read the entire study report detailing why US war cries against Iran should be dropped) Iran: Time for a New Approach [by Robert Gates, Zbigniew Brzezinski, CFR] Council on Foreign Relations ^ | July, 2004 | Robert Gates, et al
The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have positioned American troops along Iran’s borders, making the United States and Iran wary competitors and neighbors who nonetheless possess overlapping interests.
Meanwhile, questions continue to be raised about Iran’s nuclear program and its involvement with terrorism.
Clearly, contending with Iran will constitute one of the most complex and pressing challenges facing future U.S. administrations.
This informative report, which sparked sharp debate in Washington and extensive coverage by U.S. and international media, offers a timely new approach.
Rejecting the conventional wisdom that Iran is on the verge of another revolution, the report calls for the United States to reassess its long-standing policy of non-engagement with the current Iranian government.
The product of an independent Task Force chaired by Zbigniew Brzezinski, President Carter’s national security adviser, and Robert M. Gates, director of central intelligence during the George H.W. Bush administration, the report highlights several areas in which U.S. interests would be better served by selective engagement with Tehran, and breaks with current U.S. policy by encouraging a new diplomatic strategy.
This report focuses on developments inside Iran, tapping into the Task Force members’ extensive expertise on Iranian politics and society. It includes a comprehensive chronology of important dates in U.S.-Iranian history, economic and demographic facts about Iran, and reference materials on Iranian state institutions and governance [/i].[/blockquote] Does that sound like a war-for-profit blueprint ? Absolutely not. In fact it advocates the exact opposite. This is just one small example to show you that the CFR is not a Jewish false-flag minting operation. It is just a research based council focusing on studies in foreign relations between the US and other nations. If you have followed Obama's new engagement with Iran, it is diplomatic and fully embraces the need to integrate Irans's unique cultural peculiarities - such as the strong need for mutual respect. It is exactly following this prescription by Brzezinski and Gates, a complete departure from the war drumming by the previous Bush administration. The real war profiteers were deep inside the right wing Christian Conservative block of the Bush administration. Obama is ending their obvious war for profit and Oil - the Iraq war (which is really an occupation). They are mad and in retaliation, slandering Obama through clever conspiracies in the nefarious websites you are lately fond of. Obama is firmly resisting Israel (& Netanyahu's) push on the US for militarily sabbre-rattling towards Iran, based on it's nuclear ambitions. This is another right wing war for profit Obama is resisting. If you followed the intricacies of the last election - you will notice McCain was the greatest drummer of war against Iran, having been pushed by the same Christian wingnuts to sing at a campaign Townhall meeting - 'Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Iran' -a coinage of a Scots-Irish American war folklore turned into a rock and roll hit song. Wanyee, even American songs have ancestral leanings and ethnic codes -most Southern Country and Rock and Roll music has Scots-Irish roots. Rednecks really love them fanatically, and culturally take pride in war. Many Scots-Irish American families traditionaly join the military through generation chains. McCain is from one such Scots-Irish American military families. His campaign was themed on war code words such as 'Defending America', 'Strength', 'Keeping the Homeland Safe' and many such codes you may not have picked the meanings. Maybe some of these are details you were far removed from, but here in the States, all voters knew exactly who was spoiling for war with Iran. It was McCain and not Obama. Let us stick to facts, reality and truth...with evidence. Not more postings of conspiracies, lies, and sensationalistic tales. Ndugu - Bring on the next phase now. I hope they will have less myths that will nevertheless still have to be debunked.[/quote] Well argued. I hope this puts to rest Wanyee's argument (too many holes my friend).
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Post by wanyee on Jun 3, 2009 3:08:02 GMT 3
Ndugu Kenyamoja et al, Here are just two quotes about The Trilateral Commission, one of "these mainstream organizations (which even offer internship jobs to students of Kenyan heritage here in the US)”: "The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”
Co-Founder of The Trilateral Commission (and Obama's Foreign Policy Advisor) Zbigniew Brzezinski “The supranational sovereignity of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practised in past centuries.”
Founder of The Trilateral Commission David Rockefeller 1991 --- Now, my response to Job’s post remains the same: “in the interest of sticking to ‘facts, reality and truth...with evidence’, 9/11 is the key, and the key to understanding 9/11, is understanding ‘false flag terrorism’ (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag).” See also: The Lavon Affair (aka “Operation Susannah”) - www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lavon.html Britain now faces its own blowback: Intelligence interests in Britain may thwart the July 7/7 bombings investigation www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car "They refused to say what their mission was." www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=972 Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? Suspicions Strengthened by Earlier Reports www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=994Conspiracy and Closed Minds on 9/11 - www.serendipity.li/wot/closed_minds.htm
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Post by mank on Jun 3, 2009 3:15:15 GMT 3
Ndugu, The title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue(which you refer to as "speculations"). I have already substantiated "the Obama Deception", by stating the following: "Despite the title of this thread and the links that initiate it, my hypothesis is NOT BASED on Alex Jones' documentary / views. I have chosen to use the title of Alex Jones documentary, primarily because I find it fitting (and the links were meant to elicit debate). My argument, even before the release of Alex Jones' film, has been BASED ON THE 9/11 EVENT." In other words, my challenge of the Obama presidency would still be solely based on the 9/11 issue (as I have done in a separate thread), even though I would title this one "The Obama Deception" or a variation thereof (e.g "The Obama Illusion" or "The Obama Delusion"). Again, the title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue(which you refer to as "speculations"). --- In the early stages of this discussion, you stated as follows: "kweli, mjandala ni upi hapa? Umenipoteza! Tulianza na 'Obama tusomjua'...sasa ni 'eti 911 ilikuwa kazi ya ndani' (if I had to answer your question on this I doubt you and I would have a debate, but am not sure how an answer to the question belongs to this thread)". Daraja ya haya mawili iko wapi ndugu yangu? Nishike mkno hapa na unielekeze."My response: "Ndugu mank, hamna kupotea. Mjadala ni ule ule mmoja. Yale magorofa MATATU (sio mawili) yaliyoporomoshwa, yanahusiana kabisa na hili swala la Obama. Kama nilivyomwambia Einstein hapo mbeleni: 9/11 was 'the foundational event and the pretext for the current geopolitical structure' (including the invasions of Iraq / Afghanistan, the introduction of the Patriot Act etc). Inaonekana kama unatashwishi kuhusu 9/11 kuwa 'kazi ya ndani'. Ni kweli au la?"You then wrote: "Wanyee, my honest answer to your pointed question is that I am not sure...I can speculate like this: if a person or party of persons would gain from a certain occurrence, it would like to see that event occur...when it has the ability to cause the event, it very well might go ahead and cause it. However, people have multiple and often conflicting objectives. If some of those objectives could be jeopardized by the occurrence of the event (introduced above), then the person or group may abstain from causing the event even though they could gain in one way. The first time I heard the theory that Sept 11 event was caused by a government I thought it was ridiculous. After I realized that certain system gained a lot from the event, I decided it was not that absurd after all - because if the potential beneficiaries could foresee their gains in the event, they could have the incentive enough to cause it. Yet, its not in me to believe that a group of people in government could simply sign on the kind of plan that would become the 9/11 tragedy. Its not a trivial question for me, and if you make it a binomial choice question I disagree with the idea that it was an inside job."Further into the discussion, you wrote: "Wanyee, If we are connecting the dots, then I am interested. You already know that I am curious, and listeninig when you say 911 was an inside job. Lets dig deeper into the topic"..."politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11...in which decisions or actions does he seem a puppet of a conniving empire? It is only by answering this question that you could be substantiating the allegations…made about the Obama presidency".My response: "Yes, the crisis...occurred before Obama became president, but by him playing along with the agenda of the conspirators (i.e “war on terror”), that proves that he is their puppet...because 9/11 was 'the foundational event and the pretext for the current geopolitical structure' (including the invasions of Iraq / Afghanistan, the introduction of the Patriot Act etc)...'A crisis of this magnitude required a crisis plan, something the Neo-Liberals didn't have. The Neo-Conservatives, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state - and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis' [Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney - www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml]...[9/11 and The New Pearl Harbor: A Response to Bill Weinberg (by Michael Kane, FTW Energy Affairs Editor) www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100906_new_harbor.shtml]. Now, as you have very correctly stated, 'politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11'”.Again, as you very correctly stated, "politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11'".--- Once again, the title does not define my argument, but rather it is my argument that defines the title. Therefore, I have already been substantiating the "The Obama Deception", via the 9/11 issue (which you refer to as "speculations"). That is why we are now focusing on the 9/11 aspect. It is the key. And the key to understanding 9/11, is understanding "false flag terrorism" (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag). Now, your last statement was "not to continue in misunderstanding, please clarify whether there is anything about the Obama presidency in this topic. If there is, then you should advance it unconditionally".Please re-read this reponse and you will see that there is nothing to misunderstand. Again, as you yourself have written, "politics is so immensely shaped by 9-11". The same politics that defines the Obama presidency (e.g "the war on terror"). That is all for now wanyee Ndugu Wanyee, You have done well to recap this debate. The only problem is that you still left out the questions that you avoided to answer in the first place, which lead to my statement that you are not substantiating "the Obama Deception". Now that you have clarifed the use of this title as a label for a discussion that was ongoing before the title came along, just understand my use of this title as a reference to that discussion, and not at all in reference to the published work. An example of questions you avoided is that of Kenya bombing. That bomblast, and many others, seem more consistent with terrorism. I of course wait to see your response to Job who has offered more opportunities for you to argue the overall consistency of your theory.
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Post by wanyee on Jun 3, 2009 5:09:53 GMT 3
Ndugu, I am glad that we are finally on the same page, regarding the use of the title of this thread, “as a label for a discussion that was ongoing before the title came along.” --- Before I forget: Please watch the following clip: Barack Obama Lying About His Relationship With Zbigniew Brzezinski --- Now, I am trying to keep this debate on track by focusing on what is directly related to my argument (i.e 9/11 was a false flag operation, and therefore the key to understanding “The Obama Deception” - as a label for this discussion). Regarding the Kenya bombings: it would not surprise me if this was also a false flag operation, given the extensive information provided in the following link: www.wanttoknow.info/falseflagThat is why my initial response to your question regarding the Kenya bombings was to refer you to the following link: Britain now faces its own blowback: Intelligence interests in Britain may thwart the July 7/7 bombings investigation www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933Note that after I previously stated that by Obama playing along with the agenda of the conspirators (i.e war on terror), it proves that he is their puppet, you responded by saying that I had “answered the question in its context”. Mind you, the question you had asked was “in which decisions or actions does he seem a puppet of a conniving empire?” Again, you responded that I had “answered the question in its context”. --- Anyway, my response to Job remains the same: “in the interest of sticking to ‘facts, reality and truth...with evidence’, 9/11 is the key, and the key to understanding 9/11, is understanding ‘false flag terrorism’ (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag).” A quick response regarding Obama and Wall Street: Does Obama Really Work For Wall Street? www.businessinsider.com/henry-blodget-is-obama-in-wall-streets-pocket-2009-4Obama's Wall Street cabinet axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_55357.shtmlObama Stakes His Fortunes on Failed Banksters: Jonathan Weil www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aNMQDysdnKRc&refer=homeThe Israeli Who Runs the Obama White House globalfire.tv/nj/09en/jews/obos_team.htmOnce again, just two quotes about The Trilateral Commission, one of "these mainstream organizations (which even offer internship jobs to students of Kenyan heritage here in the US)”, as stated by Job: "The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.”
Co-Founder of The Trilateral Commission (and Obama's Foreign Policy Advisor) Zbigniew Brzezinski “The supranational sovereignity of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practised in past centuries.”
Founder of The Trilateral Commission David Rockefeller 1991
--- See also: The Lavon Affair (aka “Operation Susannah”) - www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lavon.html British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car "They refused to say what their mission was." www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=972 Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? Suspicions Strengthened by Earlier Reports www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=994Conspiracy and Closed Minds on 9/11 - www.serendipity.li/wot/closed_minds.htm
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Post by job on Jun 3, 2009 20:04:37 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,I hope you will still find time to ANSWER MY QUESTIONS and string up your argument about Obama's specific role in the 'false flag operations and deception'.I don’t know whether you notice the difference between coded and radical right wing evangelical conspiracies from the Left wing theories. I agree Obama attracts some of the wildest conspiracies, myths and false rumours. These conspiracies border from ones that are persuasive, some mildly convincing, others outright deceptive, and few ridiculous. It just depends on which variety you consume. Let us start with this out-of-context quote from Brzezinski which he wrote 39 years ago in his 1970 book – Between Two Ages. "The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities.” You know very well you selectively pasted just a portion on page 57 of the book (which was conveniently picked up for you by right wing nuts and posted in their conspiracy websites). In this book, Brzezinski was in fact rubbishing right wing conservative war-mongering which he blamed for leading the world into a technetronic era of fear stricken people and nations that seek (out of fear) to merge into socio-economic hegemonies– for instance the EU. He even predicted that such societies would be more controlled, with less individual liberties – the US already has the Patriot Act (besides torture & extraordinary renditions)– thanks to the conservatives and their war mongering tendencies. The EU also has strident counter-terrorism profiling of its Muslim citizenry. 39 years later, Brzezinski is being proved quite accurate in his predictions. Rethuglicans and their conservative right have used war-mongering to drive this world into a controlled society. Don’t try to join conservatives in spinning Dr. Brzezinski’s writings out of context, just as you are desperately trying to tie Obama to the Bush /conservative warfare!These Conservatives even get more ridiculous. In some of their websites, they claim that Obama is the Antichrist unveiling signs of the end of time written in the bible in Revelations 13: 16, 17. Please go to: www.visionrevisited.com and click the Antichrist identity and you will begin reading the same familiar themes Wanyee keeps posting here. Google also “ Jeremiah’s Project” connecting 9-11 to Obama and the ‘end of the times’ to start appreciating where the right wing nuts get crazier. You do not want to stray into this lalaland. They falsely allege that events following Sept. 11, 2001, which have led to the monitoring and tracking of people (Patriot Act) via wiretaps, e-mail searches and financial and travel data profiling – all had Obama waiting in the wings with approval. They claim that the book of Revelation says that Obama ‘the antichrist’ will be able to track and control all financial transactions and that NO MAN will be able to buy or sell anything unless he has the antichrist’s mark as stated in Revelation 13: 16, 17. Let me not even go there. Coming back to your charges on the Trilateral Commission per-se. Please go to their website and see for yourself their works, and what it’s all about. Do the same for the Council on Foreign Relations (CFR).Going down memory lane, you may have probably heard about one famous American politician who used to be known as “Mr. Conservative”. That was the late Sen. Barry Goldwater, a five-term US Senator from Arizona and the Republican Party's nominee for President in the 1964 election. He was also previously a Major General in the U.S. Air Force Reserve. Goldwater is the politician credited for sparking the American conservative political movement in the 1960s. I want you to pay attention to the fact that in his Presidential campaign in 1964 (which he lost terribly) against Democrat, Lyndon Johnston, Goldwater’s campaign unleashed the famous ‘ Mushroom Cloud’ TV advert – which was a depiction of a young girl picking flower petals in a field, and at the background, suddenly goes a huge mushroom cloud into the skies, in form of an atomic/nuclear explosion. Goldwater was suggesting that Democrats (Johnston) were/was weak on defense and would let Soviet Union bomb America into decimation with nuclear bombs. I want you to connect the trademark fear-mongering tactics by the father of America’s Conservative movement with the same fear-mongering which persists in the Republican party to date. Sen. Goldwater was also a writer. He wrote in his book With No Apologies: " In my view, the Trilateral Commission represents a skillful, coordinated effort to seize control and consolidate the four centers of power: political, monetary, intellectual, and ecclesiastical. What the Trilateralists truly intend is the creation of a worldwide economic power superior to the political governments of the nation-states involved. They believe the abundant materialism they propose to create will overwhelm existing differences. As managers and creators of the system they will rule the future." It must be noted that one of TC founders and funders was the Rockefeller family. Barry Goldwater’s rival at the Republican Presidential primaries in 1964 was former California Governor Nelson Rockefeller. It was in Goldwater’s political interest and fear-mongering trademark, to slander an organization (TC) associated with his political rival. There he was again, peddling fear against the Trilateral Commission (TC), simply because it constituted his political opponent, and many Liberal academics, policy thinkers and business people. One generation later, Conservatives still peddle the same fear about TC through nefarious websites. You have joined their ranks in spreading that Goldwater Conservative Gospel. That radical view of the TC by the ‘father’ of the US Conservative movement is what still plays out today in the right wing conspiracy websites you keep posting here. It is pure deception, lies and fear mongering my friend – smell the coffee. The TC and its cousin organization – the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) are both mainstream entities which are not secretive. They have open websites listing their research studies, wide open offices, in fact I occasionally stroll past TC’s downtown office on 15th, Street, Washington DC during lunch. By the way, Zimbabwe PM, Morgan Tzvangirai will be addressing the CFR just this week in Washington DC – trouble is (I can’t attend) I will be engaged in work just a few blocks away. Other CFR members like former Atlanta Mayor and first black US Ambassador to the UN - Andrew Young will be attending. I know a good young Kenyan Graduate student doing her internship at the CFR who is part of organizing the meeting– just another little info. She laughs off at those trembling about ‘activities’ of CFR or TC – which are both funded by the Ford Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation. Few here are falsely indoctrinated or brainwashed by conspiracy theorists into being suspicious with these mainstream over-the-board entities. My only beef with these international policy and lobby organizations is that they often align their interests and focus at the exclusion of the Third World. But that is something I have come to appreciate also applies with most International Organizations (UN, World Bank, IMF, WTO, WHO etc) and even governments (US, Britain, France, China, Canada etc). From TC's website, the latest research works by them include : Engaging Iran and Building Peace in the Persian Gulf Region; Energy Security and Climate Change by John Deutch, Anne Lauvergeon, and Widhyawan Prawiraatmadja and other such works. Nothing about Wars and False Flag Operations can be found on a search of their archives. Last but not least, the video on Obama trying to distance himself from Brzezinski was mere politics at play. Politicians often minimize their links to certain people when convenient, but later reactivate them when it is necessary respectively. Obama was pushed to minimize his ties to Brzezinski at the behest of powerful Jewish lobbies who feared Brzezinski's forthrightness on the Israeli-Palestinian issue. Brzezinski holds the strong view that Israeli settlements are a big impediment to peace, and he also says the Israeli ploy of first dealing with the Iranian nuclear threat is another foot-dragging tactic. Right wing Israelis and Zionists are not fond of Brzezinski and don't even like him being close to Obama. Obama downplayed the links when required but later brought Brzazinski into his inner core foreign policy advisory team. That's just smart politics. Are you blaming Obama for being smart?
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Post by wanyee on Jun 3, 2009 20:54:58 GMT 3
Ndugu yangu, I will not even attempt to consider some of the points that you are bringing into this debate (i.e Obama being "the antichrist" etc). I do not have time to engage in that sort of nonesense. Nor do I support either left or right. I have my own opinions and will refer to whichever sources that help me to substantiate those opinions. No need for me to reinvent the wheel - here are some answers to your questions regarding Obama and Wall Street: Does Obama Really Work For Wall Street? www.businessinsider.com/henry-blo....s-pocket-2009-4Obama's Wall Street cabinet axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_55357.shtmlObama Stakes His Fortunes on Failed Banksters: Jonathan Weil www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601039&sid=aNMQDysdnKRc&refer=homeThe Israeli Who Runs the Obama White House globalfire.tv/nj/09en/jews/obos_team.htm--- And in relation to Brzezinski’s quote / Obama and the Patriot Act: Clinton Slams Obama for Voting “for” the PATRIOT Act at ABC-Facebook New Hampshire Debate www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/01/clinton-slams-o/ Obama Administration Endorses Continued Spying on Americans Justice Department Moves to Squash NSA Spying Suits www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13155 White House: Obama 'absolutely' stands behind effort to throw out warrantless wiretapping suit rawstory.com/news/2008/White_House_says_Obama_absolutely_stands_0410.html --- By the way, all those International Organizations (UN, World Bank, IMF, WTO, WHO etc) and even governments (US, Britain, France, China, Canada etc - work for their own interests, at the detriment of the developing world. What do you have to say about the above? --- Anyway, as I keep saying, 9/11 was a false flag operation, and the fact that Obama is aligned with the agenda that was set by this event, proves that he is a puppet of the real power behind the throne. wanyee
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