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Post by wanyee on Aug 28, 2009 23:32:42 GMT 3
Ndugu Einstein, Please do not misunderstand me. I also do not take the loss of innocent lives in the 1998 U.S Embassy bombings in East Africa lightly. We only differ on this, regarding whom we hold responsible. I have already stated that these bombings were probably executed by local CIA / Mossad operatives and then blamed on CIA operative and asset, Osama bin-Ladin. This operation was used to build up bin Ladin’s and al-Qaeda’s mythic terrorist credentials in the public mind in order to set him and his organization up as the “logical perpetrator” of the next big al-Qaeda attack. Now, in view of the information below, how can you be certain that the U.S Embassy bombings in East African were not also false-flag operations (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag)? The "Smoking Gun" Osama bin Laden video was released by the Pentagon on December 13, 2001. These two images from the video show a man who we are supposed to believe is bin Laden…911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/binladinvideo.htmlUnraveling the Myth of Al Qaidawww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7787Al-Qaeda is a front organization of CIA and MOSSAD: Mumbai based group of intellectuals and human rights activistswww.indiadaily.com/editorial/17121.aspAl Qaeda theory: Mumbai intellectuals blame MOSSAD, CIAwww.kashmirwatch.com/showheadline....ews= value0news Al-Qaeda cleric exposed as an MI5 double agent Allies say warnings were ignoredwww.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article1051304.eceProvocations as Pretexts for Imperial War: From Pearl Harbor to 9/11www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9063The Lavon Affair (aka “Operation Susannah”) www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/lavon.htmlBritain now faces its own blowback: Intelligence interests in Britain may thwart the July 7/7 bombings investigationwww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933British "Undercover Soldiers" Caught driving Booby Trapped Car "They refused to say what their mission was."www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=972 Were British Special Forces Soldiers Planting Bombs in Basra? Suspicions Strengthened by Earlier Reportswww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=994--- N.B: In November 2008, your response to my question whether 9/11 was an inside job or not, was as follows: “In the country where I reside, there is quite a sizable number of people who believe that 9/11 was an inside job. They say, if the US did not do it themselves, then at least they hired someone to do it on their behalf. This theory is further reinforced by the conspiracy theory video clips that I collected and posted right here on Jukwaa! I do not want to bet on it, but the precision with which it was carried out and the way the twin towers crashed into themselves without toppling over is just too good to be true. It still reminds me of how they bring down sky-scrapers in the middle of huge cities without damaging nearby buildings! Check out the vid clip here: Ring of Power. ILLUMINATI Bloodlines on this this thread jukwaa.proboards58.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2508”SOURCE: PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA - FOREIGN POLICY ON AFRICA; jukwaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2776--- Now, 9/11 (not the 1998 U.S Embassy bombings in East Africa) was the pretext for the global “war on terror”. Do you believe that 9/11 was a false flag operation or not? A "yes" or "no" will suffice.
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Post by einstein on Aug 29, 2009 2:33:45 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, This thread is based on two very simple facts: 1. Obama is pursuing the “war on terror” 2. The “war on terror” is a hoax / deception, because it is based on a “false-flag operation” (http://www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag) Now, can either of you challenge any of the above (or both) as being factual? Ndugu Wanyee, Please in God's name stop shifting goal posts. Your hypothesis was as quoted above and I debunked it thus: What more do you want? It is a fallacy for you to claim on Jukwaa that the war on terror began after 9/11!! This war began much much earlier than 9/11. And for you to claim that the Mossad bombed their own people at Kikambala shows just how much you do not understand the Israelis inspite of any of their (Israeli)weaknesses. Please just swallow a humble pie and accept defeat!! And when you chose to quote me thus: You also chose to conveniently ignore my clearly stated disclaimer in that quote that states "I do not want to bet on it"!!!!!!!I shall NOT respond again. OO could you please lock up this directionless thread? Thanks!!
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Post by mank on Aug 29, 2009 3:03:50 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee, I think Einstein took your challenge in the very way you have always asked, and totally disarmed you . ... but you still went back to the library of theorists from India and elsewhere. We see a pretty different Obama from the one you depict on this thread, and if we are to be won over to your side, it will not be by means of propaganda excerpts. If you can explain the CBS coverage below within the context of your arguments, you could go a long way impressing your arguments about 911, and to Osama/CIA relations. www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=5153449n&tag=related;photovideo.... and by the way, Osama has been interviewed by CBS crew (specifically I listed to Dan Rather) before the 911 debacle.
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Post by jarateng on Aug 29, 2009 12:04:09 GMT 3
Mank, I want to be the devils advocate here. There is a lot more than meets the eye in this whole war on terror machine. I am also one of those who see it as a deception. This is borne by the fact that the actors behind the war on terror are big time deceptionists. Their lies have been with us since the beginning of imperialism. Their main agenda is to protect and promote imperialism in all its forms. And it is just unfortunate that one of our own is embroiled (being used) in this conspiracy. The interesting thing about it is that those who go to the bottom of the truth are termed the conspiracy theorists while the real conspirators are believed to be telling the truth as they control the mainstream media like CNN, Foxnews, CBS, NY Times, Washington Post and the likes. And it is through the MSM that every common Joe gets his news of the world. But there is a lot beneath the talk on war on terror and such stuff. If I may concentrate on the war in Afghanistan, there is a lot of things that happened before Afghanistan became the base of terrorists in the world. Al Qaeda is a creation of the US itself. They started it long time ago during the so-called cold war against USSR. Cold war was about interests. The interests of the Capitalist elites and banksters vs the interests of the Communistas in Russia. But I believe the players behind the two protagonists were the same as they needed a thesis and anti-thesis for their agenda to succeed. Obama comes into the picture through his Foreign Policy Advisor during the campaign - Zbigniew Brzezinski. This is a man in the same league as McNamara of the Vietnam war. The main drive for war in Vietnam was not about communists but about drug trade that the imperialists have controlled for centuries. The CIA is their lapdog in oiling the trade in opium, heroine and cocaine. Brzeninski supported the Mujaheedin against the Russians in the mujaheedin war between 1979-1989. This is the time Al Qaeda was created by the CIA to do their dirty work on behalf of the imperialists i.e. the global financial elites who control the world with their NWO antics. One day you’re told that they are Mujahideen Freedom Fighters, that the whole world must support. The next day they are renamed Taliban in the Jew-owned propaganda-machine and the whole world must kill the very same Mujahideen Freedom Fighters. Another link here I dont know if these links have been posted here before, but if they have been here.....no sweat..I am just using the to put forward my opinion in this deception game. The powers behind all this deception are the global financial elites. I will take just one big player to demostrate their influence. The Rockefellers. They are philanthropists, banksters, oil magnates and advisors to world governments..... I do not want to turn Jukwaa into a conspiracy theorists site. My main aim of commenting in this post is to bring into context the position of Afrika and Afrikans in all this hullaballoo...It is in the interest of the common Afrikan to know the truth behind the powers that led imperialism from the time of slavery, colonialism and neo-colonialism that today promotes wars in Afrika so that we cannot achieve our great potential. Afrika has enormous resources that the common Afrikan has not been able to benefit from...and we will never benefit as long as the deception continues to thrive.....a deception that is led by the US government that happens to be led by one of our own as we are used to say - Barry Obama. The choice is yours to interpret what you see...I may see a color as red but someone else may see it as orange..... It is in the same vein of deception that Bush had to invade Iraq in the name of searching for WMDs while in essence, they wanted to take control of oil in Iraq, which they have succeeded to do. What about Somali....the country went into war after a disagreement on how to control the oil in that country...they supported Aideed and other warlords with a view of taking control of the abundant oil wealth..... oil is found in basins and the basin that includes Somali runs from eastern DRC, Uganda, Sudan, Kenya, Ethiopia and the natural gas reserves in Tanzania. All these countries border each other geographically and they happen to be on the same landmass called Afrika. I bet the same people are the ones who sponsor the pirates in Somali waters as those pirates in tug-boats cannot have all the information about ships crossing the line without outside help.All in all, it is upon an individual to choose the truth that they can believe in. Everyone is in search of the truth and if that search leads you to being a conspiracy theorist, the choice is yours. Personally, I am in the search of 'my own' truth, which has led me to Afghanistan where I am currently based. I have had the chance to talk to the locals and hear their views about the war on terror. What one of my local friends has told me is that Bush and Osama bin laden are one thing. They are in business together. He is a creation of the US and he is playing his role as has been scripted by the powers that be. I have seen videos of Taliban chopping off the heads of those who work with westerners and it is gruesome. And who supports the taliban?....it is the same US with their dollars.....infact there are talibs supported by pakistan, others by the US and UK....there is a whole lot of lies about this war on terror....recently they conducted an election in which the president had already been selected. The voting excercise was done in order to rubberstamp the choice of the powers that be. And the running-mate of Karzai is a well known drug dealer but the US has to turn a blind eye to that as he is one of 'their own'.... here thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/Karzai-runningmate-is-drug-lord.5596745.jpLet me stop here with this.....i dont know if it has been posted before..but its good as a reminder of the kind of people we are dealing with here.... The interpretation is yours..... And this.....being a rastaman that i am........i pray that the wicked men and babylon will one day fall....and the truth shall be revealed.....people will always want change..and if they can get it through Obama, so be it.......i may sound ironical by posting this song..but it still captures the dream of the people....and my dream as a son of true zion...Jah bless..
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Post by mank on Aug 30, 2009 3:26:19 GMT 3
Much Respect Man Jarateng,
To use OO’s words in another thread, when you tell me about babylon and its wicked ways, “you are preaching to the converted”. But that is alright and welcome, because - who of us could not use a little more wisdom?
Yes, Al Qaeda’s foundation was laid down by the US in the Cold war era. However, as far as I know, US did not lay down such a foundation with the purpose of creating a body with which to perpetuate drama wars. To the contrary, US funded Afghanistan resistance to be its instrument of war against USSR. Now that is a Babylon unfolding alright, but it is not of a form you would successfully implicate Obama in.
Just so we do not lose focus on what the discussion is, remember this thread is titled The Obama Deception not The War on Terror Deception. If forces that US created for some purpose are now threatening the US, what should the US president do? In asking this I am not suggesting that the style of war on terror is justified ... but also I am not sure what is Obama's accusation in that regard.
So, Man Jarateng, let it be clear that my argument is not that The War on Terror is not a babylon creation. What I am arguing is, Obama is none of that creation.
We have seen tremendous changes in the War on Terror since Obama came in. In fact we do not hear about the phenomenon a hundredth as often as we did during the days of the previous administration. We have seen US actually become intent on withdrawing from Iraq (now, I hope you do not insist on inferring something about Obama from the fact that US unjustifiably invaded Iraq in 2003).
Arguments against War on Terror, particularly when they are all aimed at historic events that predate the election of Obama, cannot by any means support a claim that Obama is a deception. Obama must be analyzed on his own records, not on records of past US administrations.
You said Obama comes into the picture through his Foreign Policy Advisor during the campaign - Zbigniew Brzezinski. You would have done well to advance that argument clarifying how dirty Obama has played with the help of Zbigniew's dirty hands. It may not be enough to show that Zbigniew has dirty hands, for it is what Obama has made of those hands that matters .... otherwise it is not like everybody's dirt is open-book to Obama so that we are justified to judge him on every dirt being revealed by those who are out to discredit him. ... it is the forms of these revelations that sound like propaganda. We should judge Obama by such dirt only if we see him embracing it. So I urge you to go back and pick it from where you left, telling us not only how dirty Zbigniew is, but also how his dirt has manifested itself in Obama's administration.
I hear you loud and clear on what is propaganda and what is not. But I am not sure if you are saying that the link I posted of CBS covering an attempt by US to catch Osama was propaganda. The media has indeed been used for propaganda, but not everything it broadcasts is propaganda. We have minds to decipher what is, and what is not propaganda. So, in that link, if you find anything to be propaganda, what indeed is it? Would you say that the story did not take place, or that it did not take place in the way it is reported?
Whoever posted that Capleton number on youtube used it to advance his/her distorted message. I do not hear Capleton making the message that comes across in the accompanying art. Anyway, perhaps that's what you were alluding to in saying that it may be "ironic".
Yes indeed, may the wicked men and babylon fall … and fall hard. That day is coming, and the truth shall be revealed. But if Jah Children disown everything without due diligence, that day will be unnecessarily delayed.
I argue against The Obama Deception not just because Obama is one of us, but because I actually see in him a threat to babylon. Hesitate not to argue otherwise. Jah guide and protect Iya man Jarateng and may wisdom come to I and I ... itinually.
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Post by jarateng on Aug 30, 2009 22:26:52 GMT 3
Mank,
Your argument is well put and it touched on something that I believe should have been the title of the thread...The war on Terror Deception......with that, i totally agree with you..I was coming into this discussion with a view to highlight my opinion on the whole war on terror mantra and the forces behind it.....and what a better way that you put it....but one thing that i have to tell you is that he is no threat to babylon...he is now the public face of babylon with those calling the shots behind the scene.....i am a bit skeptical about the ability of obama to make the american imperialism fall.......he is there because he has been allowed to be there and more so because of his talents.....he is inspiring as well as eloquent in putting forth his thoughts and ideas to the people....that is one thing that we cannot deny....but what has made me see obama in a different light is because of the people that he is surrounded with....people like Zbigniew Brzezinski are well known members of the secretive global financial elite....they are there to protect the interests of a few rich families which control the world.......the forces behind imperialism and wars in the world......they benefit from such wars as it is their companies that supply the military and set up operations in the war zones to re-coup what they used to fund the war.....my only prayer is that obama will come out of this well and be an inspiration to millions of black people who have suffered the tag of being third-worlders and incapable of achievements.
Ndugu Mank, I am with you in all that you have said and may you keep the spirit alive as we try to conquer imperialism as peddled by the US today.....Jah Guidance n protection
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Post by mank on Aug 31, 2009 18:09:04 GMT 3
Mank,
....but one thing that i have to tell you is that he is no threat to babylon... Man Jarateng, Who, before Obama, did we hear putting CIA on trial ... babylon literally on trial! How can you say this man is no threat to babylon? Also notice how Cheney, the personification of babylon, has made it his career to fight this man! If we are so quick to dismiss, what really are signs of Amagideon? I will not reserve an ounce of I-self to denounce him if indeed it becomes clear to I and I that he is for babylon. So far, McCain seems to have been right ... that he is "The One". To all brethren, I hope we have not lost anyone with the i-lingo. Jah guide.
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Post by politicalmaniac on Aug 31, 2009 22:11:49 GMT 3
I actually met and interacted with a "Birther" last evening. Here is your 'typical' Birther, as described in this NYTimes article ".....The typical anti-Obama activist tends to be white, male and — perhaps most significant — advanced in age...." Well I was in the company of a Kenyan Entrepreneur, who is in the business of "home health". He and his memshahib lease/own/run 7 three bedroom houses where the mentally challenged kids live as normal a life as possible away from their frustrated parents. My pal - whose Momma in law is sadly a vacuous stringent anti R/ODM conspiracy theorist herself, went to meet a prospective parent. Turns out this parent is a 50ish bazungu man with a "biker look", long pony tail, overwieght guy with a huge rock hard bulging 'prominent kenyan beer guzzling farmer' protruding stomach, with a tight Teeshirt. The T-shirt was interesting, it had a face a composite face, one half bush and the other Pres Obama. The caption above bush read .."worst pres ever..." the one below Pres Obama " ...untill now!" So this guy launches into a tirade, before even we say hi, about how Pres Obama is in office illegally since he was born in Kenya. Immediately my pal pulls his internet wired phone and shows him the now famous BCert from Hawaii. The dude says its fake, and gamely goes on with his conspiracy theories, smiling all the time. Here they are, based on the movie "Obama deception" by infowars dot com. - nine eleven was executed by bush as a reason to get oil from Iraq, otherwise why build the biggest embassy there and Pres Obama will keep at least 50,000 "non combat" troops? -the impending swine flu vaccination is a way of infecting folks with something. He is anti vaccine and claims mercury contamination of vaccines made his child autistic and he has healthy non vaccinated kids, who he plans to send to mexico where he is moving to.- The HIV origin story - created by CIA, just like they poured in crack cocaine in the black hoods. -that bankers who bankrolled Hitler and the assassination of JFK, election of bush and now Pres Obama, are responsible for the collapse of the economy. - A new world order is being established and there are UN troops over at the Canadian border ready to take over the US. Its amazing to hear from the horses mouth!
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Post by wanyee on Sept 1, 2009 0:01:28 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, Please watch this 15-minute powerfully revealing, carefully researched 9/11 documentary video before proceeding: personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_truth_documentary Entire video: 9/11: Press for Truth can be viewed in its entirety at the link below (84 minutes): www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_video--- Ndugu Jarateng, thank you for your invaluable contribution to this crucial debate, particularly regarding the “war on terror”. Here is a quote that sums it up very well: “The 'war on terrorism' is bogus. The 911 narrative as conveyed by the 911 Commission report is fabricated. The Bush administration is involved in acts of cover-up and complicity at the highest levels of government. Revealing the lies behind 911 would serve to undermine the legitimacy of the 'war on terrorism'. Revealing the lies behind 911 should be part of a consistent antiwar movement. Without 911, the war criminals in high office do not have a leg to stand on. The entire national security construct collapses like a deck of cards” ( Al Qaeda and the "War on Terrorism" - www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=7718). --- Ndugu mank, the CBS video you posted actually serves my argument well. Have you asked yourself why Dalton Fury received orders from “above” not to do what seemed obvious? What happened at Tora Bora has indeed been a subject of much controversy. Please see the following: CIA Commander: U.S. Let bin Laden Slip AwayNewsweek magazine, August 15, 2005 Posted: 2007-08-29 07:42:01 www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8853000/site/newsweek/During the 2004 presidential campaign, George W. Bush and John Kerry battled about whether Osama bin Laden had escaped from Tora Bora in the final days of the war in Afghanistan. Bush asserted that U.S. commanders on the ground did not know if bin Laden was at the mountain hideaway along the Afghan border. But in a forthcoming book, the CIA field commander for the agency's Jawbreaker team at Tora Bora, Gary Berntsen, says he and other U.S. commanders did know that...bin Laden was holed up at Tora Bora...and could have been caught. Asked to comment on Berntsen's remarks, National Security Council spokesman Frederick Jones passed on 2004 statements from former CENTCOM commander Gen. Tommy Franks. "We don't know to this day whether Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora in December 2001," Franks wrote in an Oct. 19 New York Times op-ed. [CIA Commander] Berntsen says Franks is "a great American. But he was not on the ground out there. I was." In his book—titled "Jawbreaker"—the decorated career CIA officer criticizes Donald Rumsfeld's Defense Department for not providing enough support to the CIA and the Pentagon's own Special Forces teams in the final hours of Tora Bora. Berntsen...has sued the agency over what he calls unacceptable delays in approving his book. "They're just holding the book," which is scheduled for October release, he says. "CIA officers, Special Forces and U.S. air power drove the Taliban out in 70 days. The CIA has taken roughly 80 days to clear my book." Note: For a concise summary of reliable, verifiable information questioning the official account of 9/11, click here: www.wanttoknow.info/9-11cover-upSOURCE: www.wanttoknow.info/a--cia-commander-us-let-bin-laden-slip-away --- Ndugu Einstein, we may never know the truth about the Kikambala bombing, but the history of false-flag operations makes me skeptical about the official story. Now, I find it very arrogant for you to call for the closing of this thread while calling it “directionless”, simply because you do not like / agree with what I am saying. Pursuant to this, you must think that people are very ignorant, by trying to claim that 9/11 was not the pretext for the “war on terror”. Please refer to the following article: Al-Qaeda is a U.S.-sponsored Intelligence Asset used to Justify War in the Middle East: Interview with Michel Chossudovsky The Use of 9/11 as a Pretext to Wage Warwww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2769Provocations as Pretexts for Imperial War: From Pearl Harbor to 9/11www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9063
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Post by einstein on Sept 1, 2009 0:44:06 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, --- Ndugu Einstein, we may never know the truth about the Kikambala bombing, but the history of false-flag operations makes me skeptical about the official story. Now, I find it very arrogant for you to call for the closing of this thread while calling it “directionless”, simply because you do not like / agree with what I am saying. Pursuant to this, you must think that people are very ignorant, by trying to claim that 9/11 was not the pretext for the “war on terror”. Please refer to the following article: Al-Qaeda is a U.S.-sponsored Intelligence Asset used to Justify War in the Middle East: Interview with Michel Chossudovsky The Use of 9/11 as a Pretext to Wage Warwww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2769Ndugu Wanyee, I will give you another lease of life. The pertinent question you need to answer before we proceed with this debate is: When did the war on terror start? Before or after 911?Once you answer that question, we can thereafter proceed from there. Please note that you gotta answer that question to warrant my further contribution on this debate.And please stop calling me arrogant coz you have all the while treated other contributors on this subject like dunderheads! You never respond to issues raised by other contributors. Respect is a two way traffic mwenzangu!!
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Post by wanyee on Sept 1, 2009 2:46:16 GMT 3
Ndugu Einstein, The “war on terror” began after 9/11, with the invasion of Afghanistan. According to Wikipedia: The War on Terrorism (also referred to as the Global War on Terror, Global War on Terrorism, or Overseas Contingency Operation) is the common term for the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants, and was specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks. The stated objectives of the war in the US are to protect the citizens of the US and allies, to protect the business interests of the US and allies at home and abroad, break up terrorist cells in the US, and disrupt the activities of the international network of terrorist organizations made up of a number of groups under the umbrella of al-Qaeda. Both the term and the policies it denotes have been a source of ongoing controversy, as critics argue it has been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, human rights abuses and other violations of international law.[10][11][12][13] In March 2009, the Obama administration requested that Pentagon staff members avoid use of the term, instead using "Overseas Contingency Operation". The administration has re-focused US involvement in the conflict on the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq, the closing of Guantanamo Bay detention camp, and increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan. SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terrorism See also: Rumsfeld says war on terror in early stagesPosted Sun May 30, 2004 2:24pm AEST Updated Sun May 30, 2004 2:42pm AEST The American Secretary of Defence, Donald Rumsfeld, says the US is just beginning its so-called war on terror. Mr Rumsfeld has told students at the West Point Military Academy near New York that there is a reason why insurgents, particularly in Iraq, are becoming more aggressive. "In Iraq we're facing a test of wills with an enemy that seeks to derail the Iraqi people's path to self government," he said. "The extremists know that the rise of a free, self governing Iraq at peace with its neighbours, respectful of all religions and committed to representative government would deal them a decisive blow." SOURCE: www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2004/05/30/1119120.htm -- Other References: Al-Qaeda is a U.S.-sponsored Intelligence Asset used to Justify War in the Middle East: Interview with Michel Chossudovsky The Use of 9/11 as a Pretext to Wage Warwww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2769Provocations as Pretexts for Imperial War: From Pearl Harbor to 9/11www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9063False Flag Terrorism www.wanttoknow.info/falseflag
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Post by einstein on Sept 1, 2009 3:29:53 GMT 3
Very good Ndugu! And what do you have to say about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terrorism_(historical)The phrase "War on Terrorism" was first widely used by the Western press to refer to the attempts by Russian and European governments, and eventually the U.S. government, to stop attacks by anarchists against international political leaders. (See, for example, New York Times, April 2, 1881.) Many of the anarchists described themselves as "terrorists," and the term had a positive valence for them at the time. When Russian Marxist Vera Zasulich shot and wounded a Russian police commander who was known to torture suspects on 24 January 1878, for example, she threw down her weapon without killing him, announcing, "I am a terrorist, not a killer."[1] The next time the phrase gained currency was when it was used to describe the efforts by the British colonial government to end a spate of attacks by Zionist Jewish groups in the British Mandate of Palestine in the late 1940s. The British proclaimed a "War on Terrorism" and attempted to crack down on Irgun, Lehi, and anyone perceived to be cooperating with them. The Jewish attacks, Arab attacks and revolts, and the subsequent British crackdown hastened the British evacuation from Palestine. The phrase was also used frequently by U.S. President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s.[2] In fact, many leaders from all over the world utilize this term when dealing with perceived terrorist activity. On September 20th, 2001, during an address to a joint session of congress and the American people, President George W. Bush announced the war on terror when he said, "Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."
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Post by mank on Sept 1, 2009 4:19:19 GMT 3
Hell .... this is incontemptible madness! The subject here is The Obama Deception ... and what is going on here has no'tn to do with Obama ... PM got it right ... he put his finger on the disease afflicting us here. And Einstein got it right .... the thread is DIRECTIONLESS ... all because Wanyee, its orignitor, would rather discuss another subject. Or did the subject change without notice??
Wanyee, you have my attention if you can put your material under the appropriate title. Your insistence to stay out of topic and yet to make unjustified inferences about the actual topic, is getting on the nerves of those who have invested themselves into the two topics you keep forcing together ... and the investment did not start with this thread, mind you.
The documentary is quite on point about 9/11 ... it brings much observation alife in my mind ... I was following the story in reality, to the extent that it was public. So indeed you have brought me to saying that you and I see it same way regarding 9/11 - remember at the beginning I told you I doubted that you and I would have a debate on that topic? But what about Obama Deception? When shall we discuss that, since that is the topic of this thread, and it is in that topic that controversy exists? If you are going to post another 9/11 without obama connection here, you are being rude, disrespectful, and above all, a joker. I hope you do not stoop that low. If you do, you may also proceed to give yourself any medals you want for an argument won in your own judgement .
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Post by einstein on Sept 1, 2009 5:02:06 GMT 3
Man K,
Keep cool please my bratha. Obama is being accused of pursuing the war on terror whose very and first origin is supposedly to be attributed to George Bush Jr. That should constitute The Obama Deception if it is true that he Obama is perpetuating the Bush Jr. doctrine.
Hence my question: when actually did mankind start fighting against terrorists?
If Bush Jr. started it and Obama is following those very footsteps, then we are dealing with an Obama Deception. Otherwise we shall term Ndugu Wanyee the worst propagandist ever on Jukwaa!!
Let Wanyee tell us when the war on terror really started!! I have already given the historical background on origins of the war on terror vis-a-vis his perception.
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Post by wanyee on Sept 1, 2009 22:25:29 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, Context: I saw that coming a mile away, but I chose not to include the rest of that page, because the "war on terror" in the context of this discussion (and as widely known) is the one being referred to as follows (already posted above): The War on Terrorism (also referred to as the Global War on Terror, Global War on Terrorism, or Overseas Contingency Operation) is the common term for the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants, and was specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks. The stated objectives of the war in the US are to protect the citizens of the US and allies, to protect the business interests of the US and allies at home and abroad, break up terrorist cells in the US, and disrupt the activities of the international network of terrorist organizations made up of a number of groups under the umbrella of al-Qaeda. Both the term and the policies it denotes have been a source of ongoing controversy, as critics argue it has been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, human rights abuses and other violations of international law. In March 2009, the Obama administration requested that Pentagon staff members avoid use of the term, instead using "Overseas Contingency Operation". The administration has re-focused US involvement in the conflict on the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq, the closing of Guantanamo Bay detention camp, and increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan. SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terrorism--- So, the "war on terror" we are discussing here, is "the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants...specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks", beginning with the invasion of Afghanistan.The U.S Government (including Britain and other allies) needed a reason to justify the invasion / occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq to the American public / international community: “The Neo-Conservatives, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state -and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis” [ Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney - www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml]. Again ndugu Einstein, the U.S Government needed a reason to justify its invasion / occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq to the American public, otherwise it would have done so before 9/11 (perhaps after the U.S Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, according to your line of reasoning). 9/11 was used as the pretext to invade / occupy Afghanistan, Iraq, introduce the Patriot Act, and implement a host of petrogeopolitical actions. Do you agree or disagree ndugu Enstein? --- Meanwhile, let us re-visit 9/11 (8 years ago, this day): Please watch this 15-minute powerfully revealing, carefully researched 9/11 documentary video: personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_truth_documentary Entire video: 9/11: Press for Truth can be viewed in its entirety at the link below (84 minutes): www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_video
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Post by einstein on Sept 2, 2009 1:10:28 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, Context: I saw that coming a mile away, but I chose not to include the rest of that page, because the "war on terror" in the context of this discussion (and as widely known) is the one being referred to as follows (already posted above): The War on Terrorism (also referred to as the Global War on Terror, Global War on Terrorism, or Overseas Contingency Operation) is the common term for the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants, and was specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks. The stated objectives of the war in the US are to protect the citizens of the US and allies, to protect the business interests of the US and allies at home and abroad, break up terrorist cells in the US, and disrupt the activities of the international network of terrorist organizations made up of a number of groups under the umbrella of al-Qaeda. Both the term and the policies it denotes have been a source of ongoing controversy, as critics argue it has been used to justify unilateral preemptive war, human rights abuses and other violations of international law. In March 2009, the Obama administration requested that Pentagon staff members avoid use of the term, instead using "Overseas Contingency Operation". The administration has re-focused US involvement in the conflict on the withdrawal of its troops from Iraq, the closing of Guantanamo Bay detention camp, and increasing the number of troops in Afghanistan. SOURCE: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_on_Terrorism--- So, the "war on terror" we are discussing here, is "the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants...specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks", beginning with the invasion of Afghanistan.The U.S Government needed a reason to justify its invasion / occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq to the American public: “The Neo-Conservatives, including Dick Cheney, had such a plan: manufacture a crisis - one that had long been imagined as necessary by elite planners inside the national security state -and use it to maintain permanent war to steal the world's last remaining hydrocarbons and temporarily stave off the Peak Oil crisis” [ Crossing the Rubicon: Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney - www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/011805_simplify_case.shtml]. Again ndugu Einstein, the U.S Government needed a reason to justify its invasion / occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq to the American public, otherwise it would have done so before 9/11 (perhaps after the U.S Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, according to your line of reasoning). 9/11 was used as the pretext to invade / occupy Afghanistan, Iraq, introduce the Patriot Act, and implement a host of petrogeopolitical actions. Do you agree or disagree ndugu Enstein? --- Meanwhile, let us re-visit 9/11 (8 years ago, this day): Please watch this 15-minute powerfully revealing, carefully researched 9/11 documentary video: personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_truth_documentary Entire video: 9/11: Press for Truth can be viewed in its entirety at the link below (84 minutes): www.personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_video Ndugu Wanyee,I do not know whether you have ever written a university thesis before. From my experience, I know that when you choose a certain topic for your thesis, first and foremost you must define that topic in such a way that you do not leave any doubts in the minds of your reader (professor) as to the aims and objectives of that topic. Next, you will need to define in no uncertain terms, all the terminologies you use in the course of writing your thesis so that your reader (professor) knows at all times the context in which those terminologies are being applied. Failure to do that would mean an automatic F grade for the thesis since no one (the professor) knows what you are talking about. You've turned this discussion into a total mess since you never adhered to the golden rules about writing a thesis. This topic is nothing short of a thesis waiting to be backed up by facts! Unfortunately, you have performed very dismally in trying to back up your thesis. For you at this stage of the debate to turn around and claim thus: is not only cheap, but is also non-academic bordering on belittling the intelligence of Jukwaa readers. My rejoinder above on the historical background of the war on terror is found on the very same source you quoted to back up your claim that the war on terror had its genesis after 911. The question is: if you really saw my rejoinder coming, why did you not bother to deal with the historical background on the war on terror well presented on that very same page you quoted? Why did you choose to conveniently ignore that historical fact? Why did you not want to accept the fact that, generally speaking, war on terror has been with us since the 19th century or at least the fact that the phrase 'war on terror' is not a new phrase?? Now you emphasise this: Does this emphasis now minimise the weight of the phrase frequently used by US President Ronald Reagan in the 1980s, to describe his campaigns against Libya and Nicaragua? If it does, would you now say there was no Reagan Deception? And if there was no Reagan Deception then, why are you trying so hard to pin the tail on your donkey Obama for fighting terrorism today? Is it because Reagan did not use the military to fight terrorism? Reagan aside, why in your mind would the entire EU in the NATO alliance allow their daughters and sons to die in Afghanistan to assist in an Obama Deception? Do you know how many German soldiers have been killed in Afghanistan to date? You think the Herren und Damen in Deutschland would allow their kids to die just like that for an Obama Deception? And what do you think about the bombings and human casualties in London and Madrid well after 911 by those Islamic terrorists and Islamic militants? Were they terrorists or just good Islamic neighbours coming home for an afternoon cup of coffee?? Since when did American business interests constitute national public railway stations to warrant bombing by some insane Islamic fundamentalists? Brother Wanyee, are you a Muslim? If you are, would you also go gaga to bomb innocent people in the name of fighting a Reagan, Bush and Obama Deception while you cannot even define that deception? Bush Jr did a lot of bad things, but for you to try to put Obama in the same pot yet Obama is not even a year old in office is hypocrisy of the first order! I wish you got John McCain as President instead of Obama!! You would be shedding blood instead of tears my fellow country mate!! You had better not wish for certain things. Please define for us the "Obama Deception" or just quit the discussion. You can see what you've done to Man K, a brother who dedicated his time to get your point of view when others gave up on you long time ago.But you can also choose to discuss this topic on your own. You have demonstrated that you can do it! The Titanium Issue is well known to you.
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Post by mank on Sept 2, 2009 2:37:22 GMT 3
................ Ndugu Wanyee,........ Unfortunately, you have performed very dismally in trying to back up your thesis.That's an extremely generous understatement! Ndugu Wanyee certainly leaped way out of his league to try forcing an Obama Deception thesis. Such a thesis must be established on demonstrable facts, and a mastery of logic on the part of its author is a must. It is really regrettable that this is the conclusion I have to make. That's right! Wanyee, you have tortured my mind ... you have tortured all the minds that persistently tried to get a topical argument out of you! It is not cool to tease curious minds with aggressive titles that you cannot defend ... when they are indefensible, like this one, a reasonable effort to defend them could count. Amina!
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Post by wanyee on Sept 2, 2009 22:52:28 GMT 3
Ndugu Einstein, Thank you for the pointers on writing a thesis. It is widely / generally understood that the phrase "war on terror" refers to "the military, political, legal and ideological conflict against what the effort's leaders describe as Islamic terrorism and Islamic militants...specifically used in reference to operations by the United States and its allies since the September 11, 2001 attacks", beginning with the invasion of Afghanistan. I have already posted articles to address some of the issues you have raised, and I strongly encourage you to read them. On the EU in the NATO alliance allowing their daughters and sons to die in Afghanistan:Global Energy War: Washington's New Kissinger The appointment of US Marine General James Jones www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12143On the London (7/7) bombings:Britain now faces its own blowback: Intelligence interests in Britain may thwart the July 7/7 bombings investigationwww.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=933John Loftus On Fox TV Claims London Bombings 'Mastermind' Is M16 Double Agentwww.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/WATLoftusMI6.htm London Bombing: Strange Coincidences Suggest Cover-up www.wanttoknow.info/050713londonbombingcoverup (Ex-British Cabinet Minister) This war on terrorism is bogus: The 9/11 attacks gave the US an ideal pretext to use force to secure its global domination www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2003/sep/06/september11.iraq More Evidence Madrid Bombing was a False Flag Opwww.infowars.com/more-evidence-madrid-train-bombing-was-a-false-flag-op/--- Ndugu mank, please stop feigning your frustration and challenge my argument head-on, as Einstein is attempting to do. The golden question is why is Obama pursuing a war that is based on a false flag operation, if he is not simply fulfilling the agenda of the global power elite for world domination? Ndugu Einstein, I previously asked you whether you agree or disgaree that 9/11 was used as the pretext to invade / occupy Afghanistan, Iraq, introduce the Patriot Act, and implement a host of petrogeopolitical actions. What is your response to this? --- Yes, I am a Muslim, and as a matter of fact, Islam does NOT condone the killing of innocent people. Pursuant to this, there are very specific rules of engagement that muslim forces must adhere to in time of war:
1. They must never attack at night 2. They must never attack the elderly, women, children, or unarmed men 3. They must not destroy the environment in any way
Some scholars hold the opinion that it is not considered suicidal when a muslim strategically sacrifices his / her life, in order to kill the enemy (NOT INNOCENT CIVILIANS). Rather, s/he is considered to be a "Shahid" (witness), who has died fulfilling a religious commandment, or waging war for Islam.
The second opinion is that it is not permissible for one to kill oneself, regardless.
Last, but certainly not least, there is a difference between Islam and Muslims.
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Post by wanyee on Sept 5, 2009 22:56:09 GMT 3
Ndugu Einstein,
I am still waiting for your response to my last question:
Do you agree or disgaree that 9/11 was used as the pretext to invade / occupy Afghanistan?
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Post by kuze on Sept 7, 2009 1:13:23 GMT 3
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Post by wanyee on Sept 8, 2009 20:36:02 GMT 3
Ndugu Kuze, Thank you very much for your contribution to this crucial debate. See also: Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth Statement Scholars and professionals with various kinds of expertise---including architects, engineers, firefighters, intelligence officers, lawyers, medical professionals, military officers, philosophers, religious leaders, physical scientists, and pilots---have spoken out about radical discrepancies between the official account of the 9/11 attacks and what they, as independent researchers, have learned. They have established beyond any reasonable doubt that the official account of 9/11 is false and that, therefore, the official “investigations” have really been cover-up operations. Thus far, however, there has been no response from political leaders in Washington or, for that matter, in other capitals around the world. Our organization, Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth, has been formed to help bring about such a response. We believe that the truth about 9/11 needs to be exposed now---not in 50 years as a footnote in the history books---so the policies that have been based on the Bush-Cheney administration’s interpretation of the 9/11 attacks can be changed. We are, therefore, calling for a new, independent investigation of 9/11 that takes account of evidence that has been documented by independent researchers but thus far ignored by governments and the mainstream media. An “independent” investigation means, specifically, independent from the U.S. administrations that were in power prior to, and at the time of, the 9/11 attacks, who might have things to hide. As shown by New York Times writer Philip Shenon in his 2008 book, The Commission, the 9/11 Commission was run by its executive director, Philip Zelikow, and he was very closely associated with the Bush administration. The National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), which issued the official reports on the destruction of the World Trade Center, is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce, which means that, while writing these reports, it was an agency of the Bush-Cheney administration. We need an investigation that is free from such conflicts of interest. If you hold, or have held, a political office---whether elected or appointed, whether municipal, state, provincial, national, or international---or have been elected to lead a recognized political party, you are invited to examine our petition (click on “Petition and Members list” under the Main Menu). If you decide to join, go to the Sign the Petition page. Becoming a member of Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth will not require any time beyond that which it takes to sign the petition---although additional activity to spread 9/11 truth is, of course, encouraged. SOURCE: pl911truth.com/--- Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth (pl911truth.com) is today being launched as the latest formal group calling for a new investigation into the events of September 11, 2001. The organization is headed by Councilor (Senator) Yukihisa Fujita of Japan and former Senator Karen Johnson of Arizona. This initiative is formed around a petition asking President Obama "to authorize a new, truly independent, investigation to determine what happened on 9/11." Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth thus joins other concerned citizens’ groups calling for a new investigation, including Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, Medical Professionals for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Religious Leaders for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, and Veterans for 9/11 Truth. Independent researchers from these professions have established beyond any reasonable doubt that the official account of 9/11 is false and that the official investigations have been cover-up operations. Senator Yukihisa Fujita explains the new initiative: "Thus far there has been no response from political leaders in Washington or in other capitals around the world. Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth has been formed to encourage such a response." The organization is being launched with 20 charter members, including a former US governor, a former US senator, former US representatives, and former and present members of the British, German, Japanese, Norwegian, and European parliaments. Charter member Robert Bowman, former head of the "Star Wars" program, explains the continuing relevance of the issue: "The 9/11 Tragedy has been used as the excuse for two deadly wars of aggression, for taking away our rights, and for committing war crimes that have undermined America’s reputation. Only by exposing the truth about 9/11 can we end this madness." Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth invites other people who hold, or have held, a political office---whether elected or appointed, whether municipal, state, provincial, national, or international--- to sign the petition at pl911truth.com. Senator Johnson sums it up: "The organization believes that the truth about 9/11 needs to be exposed now---not in 50 years as a footnote in the history books---so the policies that have been based on the Bush-Cheney administration’s interpretation of the 9/11 attacks can be changed." SOURCE: www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12565 AND Senior Military, Intelligence, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials Question the 9/11 Commission Report blog.lege.net/content/PatriotsQuestion9_11.html700+ Engineers and Architects question 9/11 patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html200+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals question 9/11patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html400+ Professors question 9/11patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Memberspatriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionalspatriotsquestion911.com/media.html#Alten--- Ndugu Einstein, I am still waiting for your response: Do you agree or disgaree that 9/11 was used as the pretext to invade / occupy Afghanistan?
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Post by wanyee on Sept 11, 2009 22:22:54 GMT 3
Ndugu zangu, Please watch this 15-minute powerfully revealing, carefully researched 9/11 documentary before proceeding: personalgrowthcourses.net/video/9-11_truth_documentary--- Leaders Worldwide Petition Obama to Re-open 9/11 InvestigationPETITION WHEREAS the Bush-Cheney administration’s public interpretation of the 9/11 attacks has had radical, largely negative, consequences for the United States of America and the world as a whole; and WHEREAS the official investigations of these attacks that have been carried out thus far were led by individuals closely aligned with, or even employed by, the Bush-Cheney administration; and WHEREAS the conclusions of these investigations differ radically from those that have been reached by independent researchers with various kinds of professional expertise; and WHEREAS organizations of such researchers---including Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Firefighters for 9/11 Truth, Lawyers for 9/11 Truth, Pilots for 9/11 Truth, Religious Leaders for 9/11 Truth, Scholars for 9/11 Truth and Justice, and Veterans for 9/11 Truth---have called for a new, truly independent, investigation; and WHEREAS we believe it is long past time for political leaders to heed these calls; THEREFORE we, the undersigned members of Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth, ask President Barack Obama to authorize a new, truly independent, investigation to determine what happened on 9/11. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 55 Political Leaders have already signed the petition -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter H. Allen, Representative from Cheshire, New Hampshire State House of Representatives, 2000-present; member, Environment and Agriculture Committee. Brae Antcliffe BA LLB, Elected Alderman to the Council of The City of Sydney, Australia, early 1980s for 3.5 years Berit Ås, former member of Parliament, Norway (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Shirley Bianchi, 1999-2007 District Two San Luis Obispo County Supervisor, California (Retired) Click here to see statement Michael E. J. Blastos, Mayor of Keene, NH, USA, 2000-2008; City Councilor, Keene, NH, 1976-1999. Eric Booth, elected Former Islands Trustee, Salt Spring Island Local Trust Committee (Local Government), 2002-2005 Click here to see statement Dr. Robert M. Bowman, former Director of Advanced Space Programs Development for the U.S. Air Force in the Ford and Carter administrations (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Click here to see statement Andreas von Bülow, former State Secretary in the Federal Ministry of Defense, West Germany; former Minister of Research and Technology; former member of the German Parliament (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Donald R. Bustion, former Assistant Attorney General of Texas Giulietto Chiesa, Italian member of the European Parliament; vice chairman, Committee on International Trade; member, Committee on Security and Defense (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Gerard Chevrot, Municipal Councilor, Saint-Sixt, France Matt Cole, Board of Trustees, Town of Alma; Alma, Colorado, USA Wolfram Elsner, PhD, former head of the Planning Division of the Ministry of Economic Affairs of the State of Bremen; director of the Bremen State Economic Research Institute; and Bremen State Official for Industrial Defense Conversion, 1989 - 2001 (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Peter S. Espiefs, Member from Keene, New Hampshire (USA) House of Representatives, 2000-2008; former Judge of the Cheshire Country Probate Court, 1979-1999; former member Keene City Council. Douglas Nixon Everingham, Member, House of Representatives, Australia, 1967-75 and 1977-84, Minister for Health 1972-75, a Vice-President, World Health Assembly 1975, Parliamentary Adviser, UN delegation. Click here to see statement Jeanette Fitzsimons, Co-leader of the New Zealand Green Party since 1995, and member of the House of Representatives since 1999. Click here to see statement Constance Fogal, Canadian Action Party Leader, 2004-2008 (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Egon Frid, elected Member of Swedish Parliament, 2006-- . Member of Committee on Civil Affairs, Deputy Member of the Committee on Transport and Communications. Click here to see statement Yukihisa Fujita, member of the House of Councilors, National Diet of Japan; Chairman, Special Committee on North Korean Abduction Issue and Related Matters; former member of the House of Representatives (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Ole Gerstrom, Member of Parliament, Denmark, 1973-1975. Click here to see statement Bill Goodacre, Smithers, BC, Town Council (12 years); elected Member of the British Columbia (Canada) Legislature, 1996-2001 Click here to see statement Honorable Art Goodtimes, fourth term County Commissioner for San Miguel, Colorado, USA San Miguel, Colorado, USA Click here to see statement Senator Mike Gravel, United States Senator (1969 - 1981) (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Roland Gustafson, Municipal Council, Haninge Municipality, Sweden, 2006-- Click here to see statement Dan Hamburg, former Californian member of the US House of Representatives (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Joel S. Hirschhorn, Senior Staff Member, Congressional Office of Technology Assessment 1978-1990 (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Click here to see statement Barbara Honegger, former White House Policy Analyst and Special Assistant to the Assistant to President Ronald Reagan (1981 - 1983) (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Ferdinando Imposimato, elected Italian Senator, 1987-1992, and 1994-1996. Elected to the Chamber of Deputies (Parliament), 1992-1994 Click here to see statement Tadashi Inuzuka, member of the House of Councilors, National Diet of Japan (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Karen S. Johnson, former member of the Senate of the State of Arizona, where she was chair of the Family Services Committee (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Scott Kennedy, former Mayor and City Council Member (12 years), Santa Cruz, California Senator Prof. Muhammad Ibrahim Khan, member of Pakistan's Senate since 2006; member of Standing committee on Education and Science and Technology; member of Standing Committee on Law, Justice and Human Rights and Parliamentary Affairs; Vice President of Jamaat e Islami (Pakistan) Click here to see statement Dr. Sergey Ivanovic Kolesnikov, Member of the State Duma of the Federal Assembly (Parliament) of the Russian Federation. He is vice president of the Duma Commitee for Eco Defense. Former Deputy Director of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences (RAMN). Paul Lannoye, former Belgian member of the European Parliament, where he was vice chair of the Committee on Energy, Research, and Technology (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Kira Lukiyanova, Member of the Parliament of the Russian Federation (Duma). Vice-Chairman of the Investment Committee of the Duma. Jon Paul McClellan, chief election judge (appointed), Eastside Precinct, Orange County, North Carolina; former elected chair of the precinct organization. Click here to see statement Cynthia McKinney, former Georgian member of the US House of Representatives, where she was a member of the Armed Services Committee and the International Relations Committee (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Michael Meacher, Minister of the British Parliament; former Minister of the Environment; former Undersecretary for Industry (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Per Mohn, deputy representative to the Norwegian Parliament from Akershus, 1989–1993 Dr. Andrew J. Moulden, Leader of the Canadian Action Party (Charter Member of PL911Truth) David Nelson, Hate Crimes Working Group (appointed advisory commission), U.S. Department of Justice, Utah, 1997-2001 Click here to see statement Marty B. O'Malley, elected Democratic member of Council, Forest Hills, PA Click here to see statement Bruce Randall, elected Longmeadow (Massachusetts) Water & Sewer Commissioner, 2002-2003, then Chairman, 2003-2004 Click here to see statement Barbara Hull Richardson, State of New Hampshire, House of Representatives, 1992- . Vice Chairman, Children and Family Law Committee Senator Fernando Rossi, member of the Itallian Parliament (Senato), 2006-2008 Click here to see statement Val Scott, founding member of Canada's New Democratic Party; former Trustee and Vice Chairman of North York Board of Education, Ontario, Canada (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Click here to see statement Prof. David C. Smith, former Town Councillor, Mont Saint Aignan, Normandy, France Simon C. Smith, elected to Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council, Great Bridge Electoral Division, United Kingdom Joel Tyner, third term county legislator for Clinton and Rhinebeck, Dutchess County, New York State; Environmental Committee Chair for Duchess County Legislature. Gianni Vattimo, member of European Parliament, 1999 - 2004 (Italy); Committee on Citizens' Freedoms and Rights, Justice and Home Affairs; Committee on Employment and Social Affairs; Committee on Culture, Youth, Education, the Media and Sport (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Jesse Ventura, former Governor of Minnesota (Charter Member of PL911Truth) Bruno Vézina, elected Mayor of Irlande, Quebec, Canada, 2003 Terry Wachniak, elected to City Council, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada, from 1986 to Suzi Wizowaty, Representative for Chittenden 3-5, Vermont Legislature, USA. Click here to see statement Charles R. Weed, State of New Hampshire House of Representatives, Member for Keene, NH, 2000- . Member, Labor, Industrial and Rehabilitative Services Committee. Professor of Political Science, Keene State College. Click here to see statement SOURCE: pl911truth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=53
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Post by mank on Sept 12, 2009 2:33:02 GMT 3
Ndugu Wanyee,
As I have told you again, I do not know why you want this controversy. As far as 9/11 is concerned, I am skeptical about the publicized explanation and therefore always curious to see what gets uncovered. You do well to keep that curiosity alive. But again, that is a subject on its own.
Obama deception is another, and however many times you repeat that they are interconnected, you have not substantiated the claim. Perhaps if you labeled this thread appropriately you can go on with what is not controversial, and if indeed these two are interconnected you should then be able to lead the material sequentially into Obama Deception. At present you have an hypothesis that fails to appeal intellectually, and you are not helping make it appealing.
While you do well keeping the curiosity about 9/11 alive, you are obstinately opposed to identifying the thread with that course. I think you would be having more participation in this thread if you would respect the views of all those who have made a similar suggestion to you. My coming back is a measure of appreciation of your contribution to the 9/11 topic of inquiry.
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Post by wanyee on Sept 15, 2009 22:28:40 GMT 3
Ndugu mank, It is certainly not a matter of me “wanting this controversy”. Do you think that I do not have better things to do with my time, than argue simply for the sake of it? Would you say the same for all those who question the official 9/11 story, including the families of the victims, not to mention the innocent victims of the “war on terror”? Don't people have the right to ask questions about incidents that do not make sense to them, to say the least, especially when these same incidents are continually used to justify ongoing retaliatory / invasive / oppressive actions against them? Consider the following statement by the former head of the "Star Wars" program, Mr. Robert Bowman: "The 9/11 Tragedy has been used as the excuse for two deadly wars of aggression, for taking away our rights, and for committing war crimes that have undermined America’s reputation. Only by exposing the truth about 9/11 can we end this madness" ( Robert Bowman, former head of the "Star Wars" program as quoted in Political Leaders for 911 Truth - www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=12565 and pl911truth.com/). If you refer to my post on 8th September 2009 (above), you will see that there are far more people than you had probably imagined, who concur with my views: Political Leaders for 9/11 Truth Statement pl911truth.com/ pl911truth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=47&Itemid=53 Senior Military, Intelligence, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials Question the 9/11 Commission Reportblog.lege.net/content/PatriotsQuestion9_11.html700+ Engineers and Architects question 9/11 patriotsquestion911.com/engineers.html200+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals question 9/11patriotsquestion911.com/pilots.html400+ Professors question 9/11patriotsquestion911.com/professors.html230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Memberspatriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html200+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionalspatriotsquestion911.com/media.html#AltenAnd the list goes on…--- On the Obama connection - I hope that the following article will help you to comprehend my argument: Obama: Reopen the 9/11 Investigation -- Part 1by Melissa Rossi February 10, 2009 Patrick Leahy has a point when he urges President Obama to open investigations about the Bush administration. However, he's not pointing at the issue that we need to start with. Namely, September 11th. What really happened? More than a few people know - and I am not alone in calling for those who know to start talking and fess up. Let's not let this go the way of the JFK assassination - and whether with subpoenas or on their own volition, I demand that Dick Cheney, George W. Bush - both of whom refused to testify under oath during the 9/11 Commission proceedings -- Colin Powell, Condoleezza Rice, Karl Rove, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Armitage, Larry Wilkerson, George Tenet, Robert Mueller and the rest - as well as Bill Clinton and Al Gore (both of whom also refused to testify under oath) -- start talking, and in a public arena. And I'm calling on the Obama administration to open up a probe and unravel the web of deceit.Before we tuck the Bush administration into bed and hiss, "Nighty Night, you lying scoundrels," before we go on to lock the door on that heinous era of American history, we do indeed need to probe what happened under their watch. But the event that most concerns me is what happened on Tuesday, September 11, 2001. Oh yeah, that's history, old news, the 9/11 Commission figured it all out, right? Except that members of the 9/11 Commission say it was "set up to fail" and that the investigation was severely hampered. So do assorted former members of the CIA, who demand a fresh look at the events of that day. So, President Obama - leader of a new era in the United State - serve your people: pull out that can opener and pry open that can of worms. In following posts, I will outline some of the most mysterious coincidences and events that deserve re-examination - and there are many, including how strange things happen whenever Dick Cheney's around and the missile defense program is slated to be cut as I note here and here. But let's start with the premise that all was not told, and we deserve to know the truth about this catastrophic event that so changed the world -- and boosted the military budget to new highs. While the Obama administration is fresh - and even though we're all grappling with this economy - I urge Americans to demand that this be a top priority, and not to let Obama shrug off this "mystery" that was cloaked by his predecessor. To be continued...Obama: Reopen the 9/11 Investigation -- Part 2by Melissa Rossi February 11, 2009 So many dastardly acts were committed during the Bush administration (many of them by the Bush administration) that it's hard to nail down the worst. Senator Patrick Leahy recently suggested formation of a "Truth Commission" to investigate the interrogation, torture, and shredding of civil liberties that occurred as part of the Bush administration's "War on Terror" and as Sam Stein reported here directly approached Obama about opening investigations.
I humbly suggest that the Obama administration should start by investigating the event that set the dominoes tumbling and would so shake the world that it would lead to a panicked Congress giving the previous administration a blank check for military funding (which now chomps more tax dollars than anything else in the government budget including Social Security) and a steadfast nod to questionable military adventures that sucked us into a black hole (Iraq and Afghanistan), while Congress effectively shut its eyes to the erosion of Americans' rights, the boosting of power of the executive office, the gagging of the press, and a nonstop disinformation campaign to hoodwink the American people - as well as the Bush administration's approval of extreme treatment of suspects and prisoners that might constitute war crimes.I'm still troubled by September 11, 2001. Not merely the terrifying events of the attacks that day, but the fact that it still hasn't been fully explained. It could be and it should be. The Bush administration never came clean with "what really happened" - but the Obama administration needs to set history straight on what unfolded that day, and detail the role played by the Bush administration in it. As more new information has emerged contradicting the official 9/11 Commission report or appearing to fill holes in it - reports about finding the black boxes of the hijacked airplanes, inconsistencies about Flight 93 (did it explode from a bomb onboard, was it shot down, or did it indeed crash as a result of the passenger rebellion?), contradictory reports about the identities of the hijackers and other reports that point to a number of Cheney-commissioned war games ongoing that day that the Bush administration never fully brought to light - and as the weakness of the 9/11 commission itself has come into the public arena -- the Obama administration owes it to the American people to reopen that can of vipers and in this sifting through the events try to figure out what really happened to debunk the fallacies - be they conspiracy theories that don't hold water or the suffocating blanket of disinformation continually dropped on Americans by the Bush administration. Only with a new investigation into 9/11 can the needed light be shed on this dark moment. This time we need a commission: • that is properly funded (the previous commission started with a piddly $3 million budget compared to $50 million to investigate the Space Shuttle disaster ), • duly empowered (the previous commission, noted its co-chair Lee Hamilton "had a lot of trouble getting access to documents and to people" and was hesitant to use its subpoena power), • given unfettered access to needed information and parties (Bush, Cheney, Bill Clinton and Gore refused to testify under oath), • with members that owe and want no favors to or from the parties involved (executive director of the 9/11 commission Philip Zelikow had been vying for a job with the Bush administration when he served on their transition team in 2000-2001 and post-investigation was appointed to the weighty federal post of counselor of the State Department in 2005). • willing to "name names" and point fingers • conduct its hearings in the light of day - not behind closed doors - and make interviews part of the public record. To aid future historians and to help the American people understand what truly unfolded over the past eight years, to set the record straight and answer the many unanswered questions, we need to petition Obama to spend but a few million dollars to dig further into the details of 9/11. And as part of that investigation, the investigation needs to look long and hard at how the Bush administration's (particularly Dick Cheney's) preoccupation with missile defense, which it was making the number 1 focus of its lobbying efforts, directly influenced the tragedy that unfolded on that tragic Tuesday in September 2001. Melissa Rossi is the author of What Every American Should Know about the Middle East and What Every American Should Know about Who's Really Running the World, among other books in her series with Plume/Penguin Books. SOURCE: www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-rossi/obama-reopen-the-911-inve_b_165849.html --- Ndugu mank, while I STRONGLY encourage and value the participation of others in this debate, the primary objective here is to sensitize my fellow Kenyans / the global community about the explicit link between the plunder of the world’s natural resource and geopolitics, feedback notwithstanding (as you might have noted in "The Titanium Issue"). Pursuant to this, it truly amazes me that you still do not "comprehend" the connection between 9/11-based (petro)geopolitics and the actions of the Obama administration. So, let me ask you a simple question (which Ndugu Einstein does not seem to want to answer): do you agree or disagree that 9/11 was used as a pretext for invading Afghanistan (and Iraq)?--- N.B: I have made some adjustments to my previous statements on suicide bombing according to Islamic jurispundence. Please refer to my 3rd September 2009 posting.
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Post by mank on Sept 17, 2009 4:35:51 GMT 3
Ndugu mank, .... So, let me ask you a simple question (which Ndugu Einstein does not seem to want to answer): do you agree or disagree that 9/11 was used as a pretext for invading Afghanistan (and Iraq)?Ndugu Wanyee, Dictionary.com defines Pretext as something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object. In that context I cannot agree or disagree that 9/11 was used as a pretext for invading Afghanistan (and Iraq). There are many reasons to wonder whether this is not indeed the case, but to agree or disagree would be presumptuous. ... you claim that I refuse to answer the question, but as I answer it here I feel that I am repeating my answer. I wont go back into the thread, but I can bet i answered you before.
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