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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 6, 2009 4:29:30 GMT 3
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Post by njamba on Jul 6, 2009 4:49:13 GMT 3
AO,
then it begs for us to ask what is the motive the Kenyan Newspapers who proclaimed an extension of time to establish STK. Or may be I am missing the "legal" interpretation of the minutes.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 6, 2009 5:08:39 GMT 3
AO, then it begs for us to ask what is the motive the Kenyan Newspapers who proclaimed an extension of time to establish STK. Or may be I am missing the "legal" interpretation of the minutes. They tried a make believe story. Some of it is just laziness on the part of the media. But don't forget that in Kenya the GCG often holds meetings and each group comes up with different minutes from the same meeting. The ICC works slightly differently. I also think some government folks and even the media have not absorbed the magnitude of what just happened in Geneva. It will take a while to sink in. The next phase is critical, but that is another story we will explore as it unfolds. adongo |
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Post by tnk on Jul 6, 2009 6:57:56 GMT 3
AO i appreciate the optimism but i have no such conviction regrettably, that document does not provide concrete time frames. knowing how the GCG operates the objective will be to push this out as far out to 2012 or beyond as possible. already the GCG has played around with dates so much that the initial Waki time-frames are no longer even considered. the only time frame provided is for the submission of a road map for prosecution of the key figures (september no year given but assumed to be september 2009), there is however no time frame for if parliament rejects the STK, then what next. Waki's own time frames of Feb 2009, and the subsequent moving "deadlines" of Annan have all come and gone. from this document, a "fantastic hard hitting" roadmap will be submitted to ocampo by september 2009, after which i do not foresee any other progress being made as the parliamentarians wrestle with votes vs cash hand outs plus of course this being a developing country, highly corrupt and with some amazingly high and escalating crime stats, prone to disasters, something will conveniently turn up to divert attention/focus for some time. if not drought it will be floods or something any GCG action is most likely going to start to happen end of 2010 to mid 2011. after several more false starts it will fizzle out and be referred to ICC sometime in 2012 or 2013 this thing/matter like all others before it (assassinations of Pinto, Mboya, Kariuki, Ouko etc, 1992/97 clashes, Land issues, Mau, etc) will also find a resting place on some government shelf. ICC will pick probably pick the ball about 10 years from 2008 but by then the political landscape will have changed significantly. |
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Post by enigma on Jul 6, 2009 14:48:35 GMT 3
So who guarantees the cooperation of the GCG in case there is no agreement in parliament under point C? What are the benchmarks of these ''genuine judicial proceedings'' and is the ICC going to plant a monitoring mechanism integral to the process in order to detect sham proceedings and mediocre witnessing?
Who gets GCG to act seeing as Orengo and Mutula were actually still squabbling in The Hague while Kibaki and R read from the same script in public, but inculcate these hardline positions on their henchmen when its time to take action? How do you deal with a problem like Maria (Ruto)?
I think ICC should not wait for GOK to refer to it, it should set in place modalities for independent monitoring and move in when it is clear that the follow up to this agreement is wanting.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 6, 2009 16:10:37 GMT 3
tnk
My optimism is based on a few facts.
One is that there is always the option of rungus, machettes, arrows and bullets. That option is already on the table with very clear time lines but unfortunately it is an option where it is often the innocent who are victims. Eventually it is an option that will reach the big cats. The good news is that nobody in their right mind wants this option and I think that is the motivation driving the efforts for a solution.
Two, until July 3, when this agreement was signed the ICC option was just a speculation. There were so many hoops to jump over. First Kofi Annan was to present the dreaded envelope to the ICC. That is no longer a speculation. The matter is now in the hands of the ICC. There was the speculation that the ICC would be interested in the case and would want to investigate and prosecute. That is no longer a speculation. The ICC has already classified the PEV as fitting into their mandate. Then there was the sense that the ICC investigation would take forever. That doesn't seem to be the case.
The third reason I am optimistic is that the options for politicians to promote impunity are very bleak. So lets look at those options.
Option one: Invent a fake STK.
As far as we can tell the STK or whatever judicial process parliament endorses has to meet the ICC threshold. Essentially it means you need an independent investigative mechanism. It has to have an independent court. In either case the Waki proposals must take centre stage. They already set those parameters, we don't need to re-invent them.
Also whatever local tribunal the GCG decides to come up with will need a constitutional amendment which requires two thirds majority. Our hope is that whatever happens there will be enough M.Ps to block things one way or the other. But we know how unreliable those M.Ps are, but I will take my chances.
My point here is that a fake STK will be a hard sell.
Option Two: Get a genuine STK and stall forever
This to me is the more likely scenario. Have a good looking STK but drag on forever particularly at the investigation stage. This is where we are going to need help from the ICC. I agree that the ICC should not allow itself to be fooled that something is happening when nothing of substance is going on. I think the ICC has reputation to protect and will be active if and when it emerges that the GCG is fooling around. But anything is possible here so Kenyans have to be on full alert.
Let's not forget at the end of the day it is the actions of ordinary Kenyans that will propel this thing. In fact it is the actions of the ordinary Kenyans that stopped the electoral thieves and it was the actions of the ordinary Kenyans that forced politicians to be talking about STK, ICC etc.
Option Three: Defeat the STK in Bunge and go the ICC way
I get amused when I read the likes of Kutuny and the other fool called Mbugua saying that the M.Ps have vowed to block the local tribunal because it will derail the political ambitions of certain politicians namely Uhuru Kenyatta and William Ruto. This is political illiteracy at its worst. It is like someone out there is saying, oh, I want to be the president of Kenya or the Prime Minister and the best way for me to get that post is to have my name as a wanted criminal by the ICC. That is political insanity. The fact of the matter is that once your name is in the ICC list you can kiss any ambitions of being the president or PM of Kenya a big bye bye.
I can understand why someone like Ruto would have launched a public campaign to kill the local tribunal option when it looked like the the Hague route was a far away speculative option. But that situation has changed and things look very different now. The only reason someone like Ruto can continue the campaign to block a local tribunal and opt for the Hague option is that the ICC is more likely to build credible cases against state agents than against kawaida politicians like Ruto at the time of the PEV.
For a case against a private citizen to be accepted it will have to be proved that the citizen organized militias, armed them, funded them, directed them etc in committing crimes against humanity like massacres, mass murders, rape etc. Chances are folks like Ruto will never be touched by ICC and if that is his reason for supporting it then fine. he is being a practical politician.
For state agents or those who acted with the support of the state, they already had an army, the police, the GSU as well as a private militia called Mungiki. Some of the evidence against them are pretty obvious since the entire carnage during the PEV was almost being televised live as it happened. There is a mountain of evidence out there.
At any rate I still think a local tribunal if it is fair and thorough can give the suspects an opportunity to clear their names if they are being wrongly accused and then give them an opportunity to go on with their political lives. But I also think the local tribunal could incite some nasty back lash if politicians keep whipping up tribal animosities and the "we are being finished" syndrome. So to that end personally I wouldn't mind the ICC taking over this whole nightmare.
There is a different option which I have been nursing in my head. It sounds good in there but I have to think about it more thoroughly.
The option I am thinking of is to combine the STK with the TJRC. Form the STK as proposed in the Waki report and then link it with the TJRC so that the two initiatives whose one purpose is to address and to end impunity in Kenya work hand in hand.
There are two advantages. One is that for the STK subjects linking them with the TJRC may offer the route towards conciliation. I for one I am not interested in revenge. I don't think most Kenyans are. At the same time we do no want the laundering of criminals so we need some real concrete forms of reconciliation.
On the other hand the TJRC culprits will have to face the STK. I think it is unfair that we only want to punish those who engaged in the PEV in 2007/8. What do we do to those who murdered Dr. Robert Ouko, TJ Mboya, JM kariuki for example after we go through the TJRC? Take them to the regular courts? What do we do with those who orchestrated the 1991/2 ethnic cleansing? What do we do with those who organized and participated in the torture and killing of innocent Kenyans in the Nyayo torture chambers and else where?
The TJRC legislation says there will be no amnesty, but is silent on what will be done to ensure that really happens. That is why I am suggesting we link the TJRC with the STK and widen the scope. Let everybody who have engaged in mass crimes against Kenyans be subjected to the same rules. I will refine these thoughts in my head where they are raging as we speak. My thinking is motivated by an observation someone made about the South African TJRC. It went something like this.
"in the South African TJRC, the perpetrators came to the hearing riding their luxury cars and left the hearing heading to their mansions. The victims came in tattered clothes and walking barefoot. They left heading to their slums"
I believe it was Albie Sachs a prominent anti apartheid activist and lawyer who uttered words to that effect.
There is something terribly wrong with that picture and we are going to fight very hard to ensure the scenario is not repeated in the Kenyan TJRC. We don't want their cars nor their mansions but we sure want justice.
All these options are possible if our politicians could think rationally. The truth is majority of our M.Ps are completely irrational. They rarely think about what they do. They are like sheep. When it is time to cross the road, there is no need to look first. It is a very dangerous way of doing things. But that is the way they operate. They will have to live with their foolishness. They are entitled to it.
Last but not least I think those of us in the human rights business have to look at the overall picture. Like I said before Kenyans are fleeing the country as we speak so it is hard to say there has been progress in human rights in Kenya, but there has been some landmark moves that will change the country forever.
It stared with NARA. We all know about that. Then we got the ECK and those crooks sent home. Now we have the TJRC in the books. Then we have the pickle between the STK and the ICC. On way or the other we are going to address impunity. So stuff is happening too slow but it is going to get better.
Kenyans will not hold elections in 2012 under the same conditions as 2007. The risks of disintegration of the nation state are too real and even the politicians are scared.
adongo
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Post by politicalmaniac on Jul 6, 2009 18:49:08 GMT 3
AO
For your option to succeed, the TJRC-STK combo initiative, the politicians have to own up to their misdeeds namba one, and two, they need a heavy dose of humility, and three they need to prepare for an end to their lucrative political careers.
I just dont see that happening, and I dont think they are scared per se. I mean looking back to 2007/8 disturbances, these guys were as cool as cucumbers. Now what will scare the bejezuus outta them is a real uprising, a National one, like the anti Marcos riots in Philippines. Otherwise regional disturbances will quickly be labeled and caricatured as ODM supporters gone amok etc.
I think we are dealing with a political class that after the referendum drubbing, took to heart Machiavellian tenets, and have really wizened up. They are as greedy, as they are tenacious, murderous as they are ruthless.
Nothing short of a mass based political revolution will bother them. It need not be violent by the way, it only needs to be an overt and firm expression of NO!
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Post by tnk on Jul 6, 2009 21:52:26 GMT 3
AO
i hear you loud and clear my brother,
my reservations remain that the ruling elite in kenya is utterly and shamelessly corrupt
as politicalmaniac puts it, a lot depends on the politicians putting their careers at stake and i concur with him that is a most unlikely event, most of these guys will auction their closest family members to get ahead one step.
they will most likely manufacture a red herring or fall guy(s), and adduce or concoct sufficient evidence (after "thorough investigations") to hang the guy(s),
a few bigwigs will get a slap on the wrist in the process as well.
the thing is, ICC cannot garner any better evidence if local law enforcement is not cooperating, remember the obstacles that the famous Troon of Scotland Yard and how many false leads he was given and it took him ages to piece together evidence.
after 6 or 7 years most kenyans will have pretty much forgotten or will not want to bother or be bothered or otherwise follow as keenly. i mean who remembers the Molo clashes other than the victims/survivors. it appears so distant and we only remember it because it happens every 5 years otherwise by now it would be forgotten.
my guess is that as we approach 2012, the candidates will use the STK to finish off competition, and it could get real ugly
but you are right, there is a lot at stake here so lets see how the events unfold
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 6, 2009 22:02:16 GMT 3
PM & tnk
I get your points very clearly and they are valid. But if everything else fails the nation is back to the first option I said at the top of that options post. Check it again. It is not pretty but who said life was supposed to be pretty. We will see. In the meantime we can all work for the better options.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 6, 2009 22:28:37 GMT 3
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Post by tnk on Jul 6, 2009 23:17:22 GMT 3
hehehehe spot on AO I dont even know why RAO took this ball, right from the get go RAO had wanted ICC but RV wanted local, but he was prevailed on to go for the STK since at the time RV thought that he was out to finish Ruto, and now the scenario has completely reversed with Ruto/RV gunning for ICC while RAO is for STK. And of course parliamentarians want nothing short of ICC Hehehe. i think the only way this will turn is when it becomes evident that ICC will/may not go after some "preferred" targets, after all "no-one" knows whose names are in the Waki envelope. if that happens then a quick about turn will become necessary. so lets wait and see whose names are headed for ICC, am sure there will be some disappointed people, once the names are revealed |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 7, 2009 22:54:27 GMT 3
Let the march to the ICC begin. The PM says he is ready for them if they want him. Let Kibaki get himself ready too. I think this train may have left the station and I am sure most of our M.Ps are clueless on what to do. They were threatening everybody with ICC. Well here it comes. Right on schedule. Let it roll. www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/620944/-/item/0/-/bkbwy6/-/index.htmlI am ready to face the ICC, declares Raila By LUCAS BARASAPosted Tuesday, July 7 2009 at 22:30 Prime Minister Raila Odinga has declared that he is ready to face the International Criminal Court as debate on where poll chaos architects should be tried heightened. Speaking in London, on his way home from Germany, Mr Odinga said he had no problem explaining to the ICC whatever it wanted to know.
“We have not been involved in any kind of criminal activity. We want to put these things behind us. There’s too much speculation,” Mr Odinga told NTV in an interview. Mr Odinga and President Kibaki have been pushing for a special local tribunal to try the suspects as recommended by the Waki report. But Parliament has already shot down a Bill that would have seen the establishment of the tribunal. If other attempts to have a local tribunal fail, then the secret list of key suspects will be forwarded to the ICC for action. On Sunday, our sister paper, the Sunday Nation, reported that even if President Kibaki and Mr Odinga are not on the list of suspects, the ICC could still call them to account for atrocities committed during the post-election violence. The ICC chief prosecutor, Mr Luis Moreno-Ocampo, could task the two leaders to explain what they knew about the violence that left more than 1,300 people dead and more than 600,000 displaced, and what they did to stop it. This would be under the principle that those in position of ultimate authority bear responsibility for the actions of their juniors. The majority of MPs from both sides of the political divide, including some key Cabinet ministers such as Mr William Ruto, have publicly voiced opposition to a local tribunal and instead proposed that the suspects be tried at The Hague. The MPs argue that local trials would be subject to manipulation. The ICC law, to which Kenya is a signatory, states: “A superior shall be criminally responsible for crimes within the jurisdiction of the court committed by subordinates under his or her effective authority and control, as a result of his or her failure to exercise control properly over such subordinates.”It is this law that attracted attention from some countries at the African Union Heads of State summit last week. African leaders were annoyed by the warrant of arrest issued by the ICC against Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir. On Tuesday, Mr Odinga, who spoke to NTV reporter Joe Ageyo, also discounted reports that Kenya had been given an extension to establish a local tribunal.
He said the Kenyan Government has a responsibility to deal with post-election violence issues, adding that “if we do not move forward the ICC will come in”.The PM said if the government does not deal with the issues, the ICC will come in without reference to time limit. Last Friday, it was reported that the ICC prosecutor gave Kenya 12 months to set up a special tribunal, saying his was a court of last resort. A statement released after a meeting of Kenyan ministers and Mr Moreno-Ocampo said: “If there is no parliamentary agreement, and in accordance with the Kenya Government’s commitment to end impunity of those responsible for the most serious crimes, the Government of Kenya will refer the situation to the prosecutor in accordance with Article 14 of the Rome Statute.”On Tuesday, Imenti Central MP Gitobu Imanyara criticised an agreement between the government and Mr Moreno-Ocampo that instead of the envisaged special tribunal, suspects could be subjected to the Truth, Justice and Reconciliation Commission or tried by a special division of the High Court. Mr Imanyara said MPs will oppose the move. “The government had an opportunity at an early stage but rejected it. It is too late for it to now seek an alternative,” he said. Mr Imanyara said MPs wanted the perpetrators to be tried at ICC because the option was contained in the Waki report. He said the government rejected proposals for the establishment tribunals modelled on the Sierra Leone and Arusha-based Rwanda tribunals. Mr Imanyara cited the rot in the judiciary and arrests of wrong people following the Kiambaa killings as a sign that Kenya was not ready to try the suspects locally.Separately, Gachoka MP Mutava Musyimi said Parliament was not the sole repository of wisdom and called for broad consultations to agree on where the suspects should be tried. “While discussion must take place among political leaders, there is value in consulting other sectors of society and tapping into their experience and wisdom,” he said and called on the parliamentary committee on legal affairs to lead the process. He said voting for the defeated special tribunal Bill in February was done before consultations. However, German ambassador Walter Lindner supported the local tribunal. He said the process will not be manipulated as the international community will be involved. According to the International Centre for Policy and Conflict (ICPC) executive director Ndung’u Wainaina, the government is unwilling or unable to bring to justice perpetrators of post-election violence to eradicate widespread impunity.The government, he said, had six months after the defeat of the special tribunal Bill to hold meaningful consultations and come up with a new legal framework for a credible tribunal. “Instead of doing so, it has waited until the last minute to seek extension of time allocated to enact the tribunal.” “We urge Mr Annan and the ICC to send a strong message to the government that impunity will not be tolerated,” he said |
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Post by Titchaz on Jul 7, 2009 23:19:52 GMT 3
I wish the other guy could say this same statement,then we get along with the ballgame.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 7, 2009 23:49:49 GMT 3
TitchazIt is panic time. Remember the ICC goes with the chain of command. Omar Bashir never killed a soul with his hands. I will leave it there for now. Meanwhile everybody, particularly Mutula Kilonzo is beating about the bush, which fortunately we have covered right here in Jukwaa. At the same time Bethwel Kiplagat seems to be thinking along the lines that PManiac suggested before if TJRC was to be a possible route.. That route may be closed but Amb. Kiplagat had this to say. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Local/Think-TJRC,-urges-Kiplagat-5021.html
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Post by Titchaz on Jul 8, 2009 0:43:00 GMT 3
TitchazIt is panic time. Remember the ICC goes with the chain of command. Omar Bashir never killed a soul with his hands. I will leave it there for now. Meanwhile every body, particularly Mutula Kilonzo is beating about the bush, which fortunately we have covered right here in Jukwaa. Meanwhile this is Bethwel Kiplagat. I think our Jukwaa PM was right. This route is closed. www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/Local/Think-TJRC,-urges-Kiplagat-5021.html Nakubali kabisa ustadh Adongo, Panic time has reached maana they have realised that delaying tactics will not work.Ukweli ni kwamba kama serikali ya Kibaki ingetaka kumaliza hii sarakasi they would have done it under the Truth and Reconciliation thing lakini wakaamua kuzidi kutengeza vijopo vidogo vidogo vya mahakama na tume just to buy time so that by the time tunshtuka the next election is at our doorstep. Ni ombi langu kua haki itatendeka na wafadhili wa hizi fujo wapate siku yao mahakamani. Pia aliyetoa amri kwa vyombo vya serikali kutumika kuua raia wa kawaida Kisumu,Naivasha, Nairobi na kwengineko katika Jamhuri ya Kenya pia lazima ajibu mashtaka. Huu urais naona watu waliukimbilia lakini kwa sasa ni kiti moto maana hata iweje that office bears the responsibility of protecting Kenyans regardless of ethnicity..and in this case it failed. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 8, 2009 0:53:57 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 9, 2009 15:25:49 GMT 3
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 9, 2009 15:35:08 GMT 3
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umoja
New Member
Posts: 17
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Post by umoja on Jul 9, 2009 22:08:47 GMT 3
It seems to me that a number of our politicians and media types have been caught off guard and in a panic because they kept their eyes off the envelop. In another thread on JUKWAA, I asked this question: In view of the agreement with Luis Moreno-Ocampo of the ICC, what happens to the envelop ? This is the one question that still needs to be answered . Will Kofi Annan send the sealed envelop he received from Justice Wako to the ICC after his August deadline or to the Kenya government ?
I now have the answer from Mr. Annan himself.
Umoja.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 9, 2009 22:38:20 GMT 3
umoja
The rules of the game changed when the Kenyan government entered into a binding agreement with ICC. The media missed the story at first talking about a non existent 12 month reprieve. Once the Kenyan government signed an agreement with ICC, Kofi Annan had no business holding onto the envelope.
From what I see, Mutula Kilonzo who represented the PNU side of the government and who is actually the minister in charge of all these doesn't seem to have fully understood what he was signing. I think he has annoyed many of the PNU power brokers. They are mad with him. But it is too late.
Mr. Kilonzo is desperate to try convincing himself and the pissed off PNU top honchos that the deal they made with ICC just involves giving ICC some vague ideas on what Kenya is doing to deal with PEV and buying time. Kilonzo now claims he has already dispatched to the ICC the info about Witness Protection Act etc. Good.
What really is at stake here Mr. Kilonzo is for parliament to pass into law either the STK or something similar. That has to be done by end of September. If not the ICC takes over the case and as we know they are free to start their own investigations right away.
To make things worse for PNU, the mastermind of mischief in the government Mr. Muthaura is ill and in a South African hospital. Martha Karua their tough talking operative abandoned the ship and Amos Wako is a guy who can smile his way to hell. Nobody in PNU really knows what to do.
ODM on the other hand has resigned itself to ICC and will most likely opt for it. They are exhausted with the run around and may have decided that it is time to let the chips fall wherever they may and take the thing to ICC.
Raila as the leader of ODM has declared he is ready to face the ICC if he is called upon to. That has silenced all the crappy talk of those who were busy minting lies that Raila was promoting the STK because he is afraid of the ICC.
Like I said, this train may have left the station. I think Raila did a smart thing making it clear he is ready for ICC. Somehow everybody else has gone dead silent.
adongo
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Post by job on Jul 9, 2009 23:02:55 GMT 3
Adongo,
Absolutely on the mark!
Often, Mutula runs his mouth before thinking. I think it was a very good thing Kibaki handed over the Justice Ministry to Mutula. The latter had a big role to play in the Waki report, which he then thought was a favourable political tool for Kalonzo, that would undress many PNU and ODM honchos, making Kalonzo come out as Mr. Clean.
Let Mutula now face his PNU masters head-on. They will eat him alive with this project that threatens to bite off Kibaki's behind. There is already suspicion after Mutula signed off the deal with Ocampo. PNU honchos already think Mutula sold them in. September is not far my friends. And Parliament is hostile.
Mutula also took many international battles that he couldn't handle - fighting Prof. Alston on behalf of the police, telling Kofi Annan to leave Kenya alone to decide its fate, engaging the African Group in a UN smear-attack etc before coming face to face with the real force of Annan and Ocampo.
Haya, Mutula has actually put PNU in a tough position.
If there is anyone who fears prosecution on the PEV it is the institutional security operatives who killed most of the victims of PEV. ICC actually prosecutes the seniors who ordered the killings in the first place. This is where Kibaki's panic is becoming evident.
It seems anyone who connived to help Kibaki in his treacherous and murderous plot to hang onto power is facing an axe...Kivuitu and the ECK are gone, and now the axe faces the security apparatus that forcibly retained him in power.....and this sends chills down Kibaki's you-know-what.
I am seeing the ICC as the final place to try these PEV perpetrators.
And by the way, when Ocampo's investigators come to Kenya, the contents of the envelope may not mean very much, because Ocampos folks have their own thresholds and standards.
I can clearly say that if both Kibaki and Railas names are in the envelope, then ICC investigators will find it much easier to establish something on Kibaki, by virtue of the constitutional office responsibilities he held at the time of the violence. But just how do you hold Raila accountable for a Kalenjin who killed his Kikuyu neighbour citing 'historic land injustices'. These are the kinds of things ICC sifts through quite well.
Some people have REAL FEARS of the ICC, others actually wish for the ICC to set in process. It looks like it is coming.
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Post by tnk on Jul 9, 2009 23:27:11 GMT 3
well said AO, Job, tichaz
this is all very invigorating news, but before i indulge further, let me wait the next logical step, which is (...drum roll... ) the unveiling of the contents of the Waki envelope.
everyone else (kibaki, annan, waki, rao and whoever) seem to have been bound by some sort of higher level conspiracy to secrecy to keep the names hush hush and all that.
now in the hands of ocampo, its just another list of suspects who must be notified and the list published. he is definitely not bound by any such "honor", i mean after all, even presidents (bashir etc) names have appeared on similar lists so no big deal.
whoever gets wind of that list be sure to post here so that we can go through picking them apart one by one
am going to reserve my comments till that list starts doing the rounds.
now talk about being overtaken by events, these guys have dragged their feet over this STK for so long, the september "deadline" has suddenly lost colour and is deflated long before it takes off the ground, and that is as should have been in the first place.
this never was, and is not a game.
hundreds lost lives, thousands got displaced, and the hopes of millions of peoples democratic right to elect leaders of their choice in a free and fair selection process were severely trampled on and compromised, for the sake of a handful of boneheaded dolts clinging to power, and their equally deranged defenders (some who have since decamped), that is what has been at stake all along.
tick tock tick tock ....
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Post by einstein on Jul 10, 2009 0:15:32 GMT 3
Enigma my brother, will time prove us right?
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Post by enigma on Jul 10, 2009 0:33:14 GMT 3
Enigma my brother, will time prove us right? Indeed. A friend of mine on defense side intimated to me that ICC is wont to be seen to cut its teeth so they rarely let a suspect walk. If Ruto and Uhuru prefer ICC, then they should pen their final will and testament as they won't be back home. There is no bail even. R needs to be cautious with statements. There is a time and a season to speak, this thing is still stewing and he's a key player in laying ground for STK or facilitating arrests and investigations when ICC moves in. Sometimes silence is prudence. |
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Post by adongo23456 on Jul 10, 2009 2:58:47 GMT 3
job & othersI think it is safe to conclude that Parliament will not pass an STK bill any time soon. All the other bogus initiatives like the "elders team", Special courts appointed by the Chief Justice, taking cover under TJRC etc don't seem to have a chance in hell. So this thing has to go to the ICC and the sooner the better. www.eastandard.net/InsidePage.php?id=1144019005&cid=4&ttl=Government%20in%20crisis%20talks%20as%20Annan%20hands%20over%20secret%20envelope%20to%20the%20ICCWithin the political parties and their leaders, yes, there is chaos. ODM would be foolish as a party to seek STK anymore, for the simple reason that an ICC investigation and prosecution is more likely to be independent and professional enough so that only real criminals would be prosecuted. If Raila funded, trained and/or armed killers, he belongs in the ICC jail. If Uhuru Kenyatta raised money to fund massacres he belongs in the Hague. Right now we don't know. Let these folks come in and help us clean up the place. Of course the other initiatives like TJRC, land reforms and Agenda # 4 are going on. Those are other fronts in the battle for a better Kenya for all. And now the ICC option is not a speculation but a reality. That is tremendous progress against impunity and abuse of human rights in the land. Kenyans have embraced it. That is what is scaring the big wigs. That is their problem. The nation must move on. I think the debate now is not about choosing between STK and ICC. The debate now must be how to make the ICC process work best for the country. Also how do we isolate the ICC process from tribal machinations and "we are being finished" syndrome that some of the guilty elites may employ to save their murderous skin(s). ICC is the only option on this matter under the present circumstances (very complex) and ODM should firmly and boldly stand behind it even it means their own top leaders may have to account before the ICC. The STK is dead and must be buried. adongo
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