Kivuitu, Kibaki and Raila Just As Guilty!

[abdulmote]

Now that the ‘mysterious’ list sealed in an envelope has been handed over to Ocampo, I do not find it amusing on seeing many encouraging the ICC to get on with in ‘as quickly as possible’ that we may be seen to ‘end the culture of impunity’. But on the same note, I cannot help myself not to be disturbed by Ruto’s call of resistance that those ‘who may have rigged the elections’ also be included amongst those who are to be investigated and prosecuted together with the ‘perpetrators’ of the post elections violence as listed in the said envelope.

Surely, no one can deny the fact that Kibaki is just as guilty, having been behind the hastily called swearing ceremony based on suspicious results, which even the chairman of the disbanded ECK was not sure of! Similarly and consequently, Kivuitu has his own share of the scandalous and tragic outcome just like those who may have precipitated the undesirable chaos at the grass roots level due to his reckless ‘towing’ of the PNU’s line.

On the other side and equally so, Raila is not entirely innocent when we all heard him in his war cries emphasising that if there is ‘no Raila…then there is no peace’ whilst thousands were murdering each other in expressing their loyalty to their so called leaders as given between the political divide.

In saying that, I have no doubt in my mind that something must be done towards the effort of ending the so called entrenched culture of impunity as we know of. However, whatever the remedy we may desire to see applied, must also critically not fail to take into account actions of all those actors who had knowingly helped to instigate the national tragedy for the sake of their own individual and selfish reasons but falsely in the name of the country and its innocent people, irrspective of their status or position in our national politics!

[omundu]

I am baffled here abdulmote. Is there concrete evidence of Raila saying that without him there will be no peace? Is there any link you can provide us. Maybe am wrong for not seeing any but i get the feeling that everywhere including newspaper articles in the nation and standard people desperately trying to put Raila in the mix yet all evidence including video clips still present in Youtube have Kibaki and Michuki giving the orders.
I remember pre elections and also during the saga at kicc, various ODM leaders pleading with Kivuitu and the establishment to do things right for the sake of peace. Plea's that fell on deaf ears. I clearly remember the former finance minister stating that they would rather see the country burning rather than hand over power to Raila.
On another note, does anyone know wether the ICC will include the Ugandan soldiers in western kenya and their "leader" in their investigations and prosecution?

[politicalmaniac]

Jul 14, 2009 17:10:42 GMT 3 omundu said:

I am baffled here abdulmote. Is there concrete evidence of Raila saying that without him there will be no peace? Is there any link you can provide us. Maybe am wrong for not seeing any but i get the feeling that everywhere including newspaper articles in the nation and standard people desperately trying to put Raila in the mix yet all evidence including video clips still present in Youtube have Kibaki and Michuki giving the orders.

Of Course those words alleged to be uttered by R are the product of an over fevered mind that needs to be ventilated so that the chill can provide some clarity.
That slogan was a street chant by ODM supporters, and R never uttered it. Infact R NEVER said anything along the lines that if he doesnt get power then bloodshed. All R said, and which was borne true, was that if the elections were rigged then folks would be very annoyed and the Govt will be held accountable.
Even Pogoshio and the lame a$$licker Judas KM said the very same thing.
You see folks are desperate to write Rs political orbituary. They really really DONT want him to be P.O.R.K.
They will feel the same way the republicans are feeling now with the other President of Luo heritage Obama in office. Nothing drives them nuts like Pres Obama in the WH.
These people have gone to unimaginable lengths to keep R from office. They have killed their own kith and kin, abandoned them in IDP camps, slaughtered 12,000 youths eti ni mungiki, then used the same youths to kill ODM supporters, they have stolen money meant for development of their own and others, invited mamluki to sleep with their mothers and daughters while running run shod over Kenyans.
There is nothing they wont do to besmirch Rs name, stomp on it, and drag him through the mud just so as to stop him from being P.O.R.K.
They have SWORN hata kanyanga SH
They want to keep that eternal promise.

[wanyee]

Ndugu zangu,

I stand to be corrected.

First, I would like to strongly recommend the following document:

It Is All About Power - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/10.html

---

I essentially agree with Abdulmonte. I hold Raila responsible, because he (and by extension ODM) should have championed the reform process in the first place (before the 2007 election violoence) - Kenyans were NOT supposed to go to another election without a new constitution [NO REFORMS, NO ELECTIONS: CCR-Kenya Starts Protests To Press For Constitutional Reforms - www.ccr-kenya.com/Action-Centre/33.html See also CCR-Kenya's Answers To Questions Posed By The Kiplagat Committee (On Constitutional Reforms) - 18th April, 2006: www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/29.html].

After winning the “orange” v/s “banana” referendum, ODM should have seized the opportunity to champion the reform process instead of calling for snap elections (which only betrayed their personal interests). I remember William Ruto (as the ODM spokesman) saying that the ODM would adopt the Bomas draft if they won the referendum (We'll adopt Bomas Draft after win, say Orange leaders - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/43.html), but this was not to be the case.

Raila may not have chanted the slogan “no Raila, no peace”, but he certainly did not remedy the situation by correcting his supporters and steering them in the direction. Instead, his silence only served to imply his consent. If he were genuinely acting in the best interests of Kenyans, he should have seized this second opportunity (when he had overwhelming support) to champion the reform process instead of crying foul. If he were genuinely acting in our best interests, he should have acknowledged the root of the problem (the present constitution) and focused on addressing the review process.

Instead, he was more interested with “power-sharing”. Together with Kibaki, they acted as though Kenya’s survival depended on them, even refusing to shake hands like little boys after a petty squabble, until Kofi Annan had to be called in. Do these politicians think that our lives revolve around them, holding us hostage in order to fulfill their selfish objectives?

Finally, they agreed to sign a peace agreement, pledging "to implement Agenda Four which provides for constitutional, legal and institutional reforms, tackling poverty, inequality and youth unemployment, consolidating national cohesion, carrying out land reforms, enforcing accountability and transparency, and ending impunity" within one year (Coalition Government has failed Kenya - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/130.html See also Reform agenda has to be the top priority - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/134.html and Annan urges faster reform process - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/131.html).

Let us not forget that all these leaders (campaigning under the NARC banner) were elected on the understanding that they would implement the Bomas Draft within 100 days of being in office. They publicly signed an MOU (on national television)! Now, they (and their mouthpieces) act as though Kenyans have forgotten all this – not to mention the lives destroyed after the 2007 election violence, including IDP's who are still living in camps!

We are now in 2009, and they are already gearing up for 2012. Raila has called for the adoption of the Bomas Draft before another election, and we can only hope that it is not just rhetoric. My fellow Kenyans, we must refuse to be fooled again and demand real results from these “leaders” (It Is All About Power - www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/10.html).

Let us stay alert this time.

NO REFORMS, NO ELECTIONS!

wanyee

---

Other References:

PRESS RELEASE: CCR Calls for Comprehensive Reforms Leading to Fresh Elections in Kenya
www.david-kilgour.com/2008/Jan_26_2008_05.htm

CCR-Kenya's Proposal To The Kenyan Negotiators (addressed to Hon. Kofi Annan)
www.ccr-kenya.com/admin/edit.php?aid=84

Opportunity for reform has come
www.ccr-kenya.com/Action-Centre/93.html

Change of law, the answer, say lawyers
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/51.html

Groups root for review of law
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/11.html

Elections alone wont save our institutional problems
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/63.html

Democracy without a good constitution a recipe for failure
www.ccr-kenya.com/?news=62

Kenya a land divided
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/12.html

COLONIAL ORIGIN OF PRESENT ETHNIC TENSIONS IN KENYA
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/52.html

More: www.ccr-kenya.com

[omundu]

WITH POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY
Analysis of the current political quagmire in Kenya is very difficult without first going to the basics. To do that we have to first, delve into the different facets at play, their different roles and intended responsibilities. I believe this is something even a GHC student in class four is able to do.
The above can help us understand who is solely responsible for the situation that is currently Kenya.


ROLE OF THE OPPOSITION
The main role of the opposition in any country is to question the Government of the day and hold them accountable, challenging the policies of Government and producing different policies where appropriate. We have to realize that they can only do that because they don’t have the same resources that Government wields.
www.decisionmaker.co.nz/guide2003/hgw/oppose.html#mmp

ROLE OF GOVERNMENT
A proper government’s only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between man peaceful, i.e. free from the threat of violence and fraud

PURPOSE OF THE CONSTITUTION
To ensure no despot, may usurp powers of Government and turn its Machinery upon its citizens
www.capitalism.org/faq/government.htm


Now a brief historical perspective in relation to the definitions we have been given:

We all remember the euphoria in 2002 and when NARC came to power and the promises made, including a new constitution in 100 days. We also remember the MOU and the NARC summit which had representatives from almost all sectors of the country and the hope they represented as the supposed main decision making organ of the party (read government)

No one expected what was to happen next and it’s on record afterwards Michuki stating that there was no need for any constitutional amendments showing that to the new cabal (MKM Mafia), the summit had become a major hindrance in accumulating power. This statement heralded the existence of two competing factions within Government; the power hungry hyenas and the ones fighting for the rights of the individual (ROLE OF GOVERNMENT?)

Enter Yash Pal Ghai who in my opinion started the constitutional revolution, by spearheading a draft constitution in one of the most democratic processes ever witnessed in Kenya with representatives from all over the country plus civil service and even religious representatives. Then Kibaki and his cabal rewrite it giving himself even more powers and present it to the people for a referendum (ROLE OF THE CONSTITUTION?)

Thanks to Raila and co. the Banana camp was defeated and Kenyans were not subjected to a constitution tainted by the interests of power.

Some eventually blame Raila for lack of a constitution, failing to realize that after the defeat, Kibaki unceremoniously ushered them out of Government into the opposition benches. The move by Kibaki rendered the pro reform team useless in the effort of installing a new constitution and all they could do was to push for the Bomas draft by parliament and mass action and through the civil society. What we are forgetting is they did their job as an opposition but it still was up to the Government of the day to implement it. (AGAIN READ ROLE OF OPPOSITION?)


As an opposition, ODM and Raila did very well by questioning and bringing to light various issues bedeviling the Gova of the time and I don’t have to mention the Mamlukis, Anglo leasing Mobitelea, pushing for the Bomas draft e.t.c . It was up to the Government of the day and it was their Job to do the right thing, which they didn’t.

Fast forward to the election period:
Some quarters state that ODM pre-planned the violence and the rhetoric Raila used played a role in PEV. Raila is also blamed for failure to put an end to “his people” killing Kikuyus. After the Annan accord some quarters are still shouting Hoarse that Raila did the wrong thing and he should have done something else like ask for a new Constitution. And what was the Kibaki and the Government doing? I ask.

IT is on record that Raila was asking for peaceful protests. We even have Ruto issuing a moratorium to Kalenjin warriors to put an end to the killings. Meanwhile the Government whose sole responsibility is to protect its citizenry was issuing shoot to kill orders and mass blackouts in the media. It is also on record that Raila and co were reaching out to world leaders for a solution while the said Government was snubbing them and saying they came for tea while the country was burning. They tried everything in and out of the books to scuttle the peace process while people were still dying.

KNHCR did a survey and one of the questions asked was; what are the most important ways to stop future violence? The top two answers were, to stop tribalism and to conduct free and fair elections. Doesn’t that answer a lot of questions on where the problem lies.

KNHCR further states that it was mainly the failure by NSIS to provide information on the possibility of violence or the failure of the Government to act on the info given that led to the level of violence witnessed post election.

All in all and by definition, regardless of political affiliation or race or even tribe the Government was supposed to protect all and sundry but they were busy sending troops to Kisumu and Kibera while the worst atrocities were happening in Rift valley. It is very silly to blame Raila for the things, by job description, a sitting Governemnt with all the state machinery is supposed to do.

[adongo23456]

I think there are many people out there who would want to see Raila held responsible one way or the other about the disaster of 2007/8.

So far I am afraid not much in terms of evidence have been brought against Raila and I suspect it is because no such evidence exists. This "No Raila No Peace" thing can't take anybody anywhere. It is nonsense.

I think people should stop dancing around. Kibaki stole the elections period and ushered the country into chaos. There are no two ways around that simple fact. I am one of those who think Moi was one of the worst leaders Kenya has seen but compared to Kibaki, Moi is a saint. For all his sins, Moi did something Kibaki could not bring himself to do. Moi accepted defeat in 2002 after his project flopped at the polls. Kibaki knew he was facing defeat in 2007. He planned his rigging way in advance.

I don't know how many people remember Kivuiti's speech at KICC that lasted for hours as he told the whole world how Kibaki's thieves were busy messing up the electoral results. In fact Kivuiti told the country that Kibaki's electoral thieves were the worst scumbags in the universe. He said they are so filthy that no country in the world would even accept them as refugees. And on and on he went. It was stunning.

Then the little thief had the nerve to swear himself in at dusk surrounded by his tribal gangsters. That was the most horrible day in the history of the nation. Every time I see that video of the thief being sworn in I feel like throwing up. That record of infamy will go into the history books as the day a bunch of selfish crooks decided their greed for power was more important than the country. Like I have said many times there is a special place in hell preserved for Kibaki for the sins he committed in the 2007 elections. Obel Sibuth (the big Satan) is waiting for this man with both hands wide open. He is going to get a sweet embrace from the big one himself. I think they deserve each other.

Having said all that I still think the best way out of all these should have been through the TJRC if it was structured along those lines. The STK will not pass and neither will the Special Division of the High Court. The cabinet is confused and so is parliament. Nobody seems to have any clue on what can be done. At the end of the day ICC will step in and get their one or two people based on the evidence they can get. Even if they only get one person that will be a very powerful message. As to who they may get, your guess is as good as mine but I doubt it will be Raila Amolo Odinga.

I see Ruto has now jumped into the TJRC option.

www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/624624/-/item/0/-/vgyb7mz/-/index.html

It is sad the way Ruto has turned this whole debate into a debate about him. His PNU counterpart Uhuru Kenyatta who actually faces a more formidable case against him for financing the Naivasha massacre has gone underground. He knows he is in a no win situation either way so he will just wait his fate whichever way it comes. Ruto should stop panicking and let the chips fall wherever they may. I sincerely do not believe that Ruto organized any killings. I don't know why he is jumping all over the map.

The TJRC option could have worked if there was a genuine attempt to really resolve the problems of impunity, get people to accept their responsibilities and address the plight of victims and survivors of state terrorism over the years. That is not the case as we speak. The criminals are in power and their only concern is how to keep that power for now and for later.

The TJRC law is already in place and it has no jurisdiction to prosecute anybody. It is not designed that way. We are going to use it to open some nasty old wounds and see what we get in there. It could be stinky but that is part of the problem. May be we will clean things up. That is what it is designed for. I don't think it can be redone to launder those who tried to destroy the country in 2007/8.

adongo

[politicalmaniac]

AO
Of course the smear campaign against R does not take a break. Far fetched, contorted and imaginative arguments based on flimsy words here and there are taken as "evidence". Blame is apportioned to him when the mafia from mt kenya in Central Province obstruct legislation for change. It wont end until R retires or passes on to heaven to meet jaramogi. They are obsessed with with.
Notice they never blame the ape humanoid from othaya nyeri for anything, and if they do, they must rope in R.

[wanyee]

Ndugu zangu,

As I have already stated, I stand to be corrected.

Please do not get me wrong. In my humble opinion, Kibaki discredited himself the moment he stole the presidency – not to mention a host of other issues preceding that tragedy and to date.

As for Raila, I question his competence, particularly with respect to controversial “development” projects:

10 leaders support Yala swamp irrigation project - Daily Nation, 1st May 2006

Ten MPs led by Mr Raila Odinga have defended the controversial Yala Swamp project saying it is a major gateway to prosperity for the people of the region.

The MPs told a British NGO, ActionAid, to keep off the irrigation project since the local people were comfortable with the activities of Dominion Farms Limited, an American firm. They also cautioned the media against what they termed as biased reports on the Sh2.5 billion project.

Mr Odinga told Dominion Farms president Calving Burgges that they will support him because he had "spent millions of shillings for the sake of our people."

He said: "We have come a long way with this project and ActionAid should keep off. Let the NGO start its project rather than spend money around criticising what other people are doing."

www.ccr-kenya.com/Video/3.html (Includes Video)

--

Then there is the titanium issue:

Raila urges green lobby to keep off (20th January 2009)
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/139.html

Tiomin contract is manipulative, argues Reform Group
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/44.html or www.kbc.co.ke/story.asp?ID=44907

Why Kulundu Ignored Pleas on Tiomin
www.ccr-kenya.com/Action-Centre/44.html

Canadian firm gets nod to mine titanium
www.ccr-kenya.com/Action-Centre/44.html

Fate of Titanium Mining Awaits Kenya Polls
www.ccr-kenya.com/Resources/125.html

MORE: www.ccr-kenya.com

[abdulmote]

Some things here need some clarification.

Firstly may I categorically state that whatever the political views I may present in any online forum, and indeed anywhere else is absolutely and intentionally non-partisan. If anything, I do pride myself for maintaining my neutrality particularly so when it comes to Kenyan politicians irrespective of who I may be commenting upon. In saying that, I always strive to look and comment on our political issues in a totally unbiased manner and would not hesitate to criticise, condemn or indeed praise any individual within the subject category whom I may perceive to have committed any undesirable act or otherwise.

Having said that, I would like to clearly reassert that I stand by what I had stated earlier regarding Raila’s complicity in the PEV and that my allegations of the same were not founded on rumours or innuendos as some would have implied. Indeed I can firmly state that I had heard Raila, with my very own ears, stating the words as given above or at least very close in that regard. For me, Raila’s particular statement during the unfolding anarchy was clearly striking and I could not help but feel disgusted by his perceived public incitement, with total disregard at the time of the lives being lost. I can vividly remember thinking in my mind then that that was extremely selfish of him to behave in the manner that he did and if anything, his statement at the time remained as an incident that I will never forget.

Unfortunately I cannot remember exactly through which television channel was that broadcast delivered and I have tried to search around for that particular clip to no avail but again, all I can tell you is whether you would choose to believe me or not, that my conscience is very clear about this and I do not have a shred of doubt about its accuracy.

I shall attempt to elaborate further on the handling of the perpetrators of the PEV hopefully in the very near future.

[adongo23456]

As for me I will stick with the evidence: Here is Uhuru's problem with that Naivasha massacre and other similar activities.

www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hC2b-h8oUeJJnwOIMRqyAwn7pdaw

[politicalmaniac]

Everyone has a fundamental right to hold a Point of View - POV or an opinion.
Facts are onother matter, and not simply POV. NO ONE is entitled to their own set of "facts".

If someone heard R utter inflamatory materiel, then I would imagine that person would love to hold R accountable. Someone surely should (or would have) Writen/emailed/documented this to some authority with collaborating evidence.

The mind is a wonderful thing and can play tricks on its self, 'hearing' selectively what it wants to hear. Just ask Sonia Sotomayor and her 'wise Latina comment'. The haters hear one thing, while I for one know what she meant and probably has a grain of truth in it. When Pres Lula of Brazil said the financial meltdown was caused by 'blue eyed blondes' he was evicerated as a 'racist'. So we know what R haters love to do, smear and bash him day and night even when downloading in the loo, thats where their minds are, even when attempting to enjoin two sets of 23 chromosomes to get a perfect union of 46, they cant even pay attention to the other partner. Their fevered minds are permeated solely by thoughts of how to nail R. Hiyo pekee.

Anyway, I thought Waki did go around the country for just such a purpose, interviewing the victims and collecting evidence hence the dreaded envelope to Ocampo/Annan.

This being the Wild Wide Web - WWW, any bullsh!ter can say anything. It doesnt matter in the end. Its a free world they say, but facts will reign. If R did say those words then guess what, they will come back to haunt him. Otherwise let the fevered underventilated hyperactive imaginations continue to do what they do best. They have no locus standi in the end. Zero!

[abdulmote]

If every time anyone criticises Raila translates into being his basher or hater, then all should not criticise anyone about anything, because following such a maniac perception, one inevitably and simply becomes an unreasonable hater or a “bullshiter”! I say no. Such a poor and fanatic perception of any criticism can only belong to the tunnel and narrow visioned. However, anyone who possesses some common sense and a little bit of true courage should be brave enough to ponder objectively on the critic given, and not just get themselves into maniac fits and take others to be ‘Raila bashers and haters’ in total disregard of the value of what had been stated.

Facts do not stop becoming facts simply because there is no You Tube link to provide for visual evidence or something like that. But as correctly stated, the truth will out and indeed will haunt the guilty one day or another.

This leads me to precisely the point of this topic.

It is quite obvious that majority of Kenyans either prefer The Hague or a local Tribunal to try the perpetrators of PEV. In my humble opinion neither one of these routes on their own can and will provide our nation with the best outcome in stemming the so called ‘culture of impunity’. In all probability, the Hague route would only be able to try some or few of the ‘big fish’ given in the possible list of culprits. Thus a huge number of significant suspects are more than likely going to go free after all the drama which is likely to unfold following the same.

The local Tribunal on the other hand, is more than likely going to successfully hold to account only some of the ‘small and insignificant fish’ and simply remain incapable of trying the main culprits. The chances of political manipulation by the ‘almighty and powerful’ are also very real and therefore likely to get manipulated and subsequently leave the main culprits off the hook.

In saying that, even if both routes were to be pursued for the same purpose at the same time, I very much doubt if the resulting outcome will in anyway help our nation to heal and ultimately rid us of the culture of impunity and instead bring us the sustainable peace we all yearn for.

The question is; how can we pursue a method of justice which will in all probability, bring us the desired outcome, that of impartially curtailing the culture of impunity and at the same time bring about desirable national cohesion and true sustainable peace without huge and real possibilities of failure?