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Post by denno on Feb 2, 2006 21:35:34 GMT 3
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Post by maina on Feb 3, 2006 4:59:54 GMT 3
This shebang details formidably alarming proof of the humourless jobbery! Reading it makes one feel shot down and hopeless.
For instance, how can a Minister for Justice and Constitutional affairs plead innocence after channelling and transmitting death threats? Ala! Also, as a politician that has spent more time in opposition politics than in government, I was so stunned and terrified by Kiraitu referring to the opposition as “the enemy”! Kiraitu is just unbeautiful and hard-featured in the same way that he is publicly threatening and wicked……we no doubt need to hang this one………rid society of another felonious hoodlum!
The report also apprises and discloses the identities and put-up jobs of other “ex-cons”, slippery eels and gangsters that I never knew much about. Characters like the Wanjigi juvenile and villain, the squalid-scheming accountant and engineer, (Pritpal Singh Thethy), the dastardly and insulting lawyer, A.H. Malik and his whacko son Muin, the omnipresent and enshrouded American bandit (Merlyn Kettering), and the phony yet self-righteous Anura Perera!
I really can’t wait for a regime change. All these heinous desperados mentioned in the report should be held accountable. The account of their unwelcome and destitute businesses is also just downright annoying and insulting. We should work at making our cans and slammers their permanent addresses.
I am thankful that John Githongo exposed them so that everyone everywhere knows them.
Maina.
P.S.
Anybody know anything about who may have had the loony guts to threaten Mwiraria with death as he reported in Parliament in June of 2004?
-unedited-
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Post by kamalet on Feb 3, 2006 8:40:19 GMT 3
"white man turn the corner, finds himself in a different world,
Ghetto kid grabs his shoulders, throws him against the wall.
He says would you respect me, if I didn't have this gun? Coz without it, I don't get, and that is why I carry one.
We always need to hear..both sides of the story" - Phil Collins
Now that Githongo has written his bit, he should allow it to be tested for correctness and truth, after which we can proclaim the gospel. That I believe is the essence of fairness and good common sense!
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Post by maina on Feb 3, 2006 9:04:16 GMT 3
Kamale,
Ala! You missed the point here........Githongo has incontrovertible evidence. There's nothing else to prove.
Please do not erroneously make me imagine that you are mocking our KIBAKI MUST GO efforts. These racketeers are condemned and liable, period! Please ride with the times!
Maina
-unedited-
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Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 12:16:12 GMT 3
"Now that Githongo has written his bit, he should allow it to be tested for correctness and truth, after which we can proclaim the gospel. That I believe is the essence of fairness and good common sense!" --Kamale
I always try to look at what you post in here with an objective eye. Sometimes be it once in while, I can see sense in what you are trying to put through irrespective of how differently others may choose to perceive the same. But I must also admit that sometimes I find your views exceedingly irritating and insulting to our intelligence to say the least!
The simple and plain truth of the matter is that what has already befallen Kibaki's regime is sufficiently enough to cause an instant dissolution of any true government and appropriately so! And here I am talking as of this particular stage, even where Githongo's evidence has not been cross examined by any of the accused.
You must remember that any public body which is mandated to govern on behalf of the public, can only legitimately do so, as long as it maintains its integrity and credibility as can be seen in the eyes of the public.
It follows that where there is any shred of doubt arising against the same, and where its accountability, credibility or indeed its integrity has become even slightly questionable, that public body must immediately cease to exist and due process of the law followed appropriately and immediately to remedy the situation henceforth!
Accordingly Kibaki must only logically resign, and that must be the only minimum requirement acceptable of his acts at this stage and time.
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Post by aeichener on Feb 3, 2006 12:34:20 GMT 3
We must differentiate two things here, Kamalet.
1. In a state under the rule of law, where due process is observed, nobody shall be found guilty of any criminal offence and be punished by penal law sanctions, without proper weighing and examination of evidence, and opportunity of defence.
(Kenya, however, is not a state under the rule of law, has no independent and incorrupt judiciary worthy of its name, and "due process" is a joke)
2. This rule does apply to criminal law, but not to political responsibilities. Anybody holding political or otherwise elected office can and shall be sacked when s/he is no longer bearable. There is no "presumption of innocence" here.
Alexander
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Post by kamalet on Feb 3, 2006 15:38:48 GMT 3
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Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 17:57:20 GMT 3
Kamale,
My accusation against you in this instance is certainly not instigated by sheer ignorance or reckless arrogance as to your rights of expressing and holding your own opinions. That I cannot pathetically simply ignore!
But again, I really get seriously disturbed when a person who displays some intelligence such as yours, comes up with something which demonstrates clearly and obviously, how illogical and irrational its contents are! I can certainly appreciate your knowledge of 'mass psychology' specifically and generally on Kenyans. But that is not to say every one reserves the right to hide behind the cover of 'personal opinion' as is often the case with practitioners of such undertakings!
I bear no emotions about this and firmly stand by I disagreeertions as observed above.
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Post by kamalet on Feb 3, 2006 18:44:01 GMT 3
Abdulmote,
Are therefore suggesting that the intention of the Githongo report is to bring Kibaki down? You see I hold no fort for Kibaki and seriously think he goofs more often than not.
What you cannot take away is the fact that we MUST be allowed to put the report to test for veracity before using it to condemn people! As I said earlier, we must wait and here the other side of the story from all those he has accused. Supposing they actually deny all the meetings and perhaps even have proof that the meetings did not even take place? Would you be struggling to still believe Githongo?
Githongo's allegation must undergo a credibility test - how that insults your intelligence I seriously do not know!
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Post by abdulmote on Feb 3, 2006 20:08:27 GMT 3
Kamale,
Is that the best rebuttal you could come up with? Huh?!
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Post by denno on Feb 4, 2006 1:09:21 GMT 3
Githongo's report is indeed damning, and I must say that anyone who reads it will without a doubt declarae the alleged schemers guilty. Having said that, I must agree with Kamalet that fairness must prevail - let the alleged schemers respond to the accusations. People who profess fairness can not choose when to exercise the same. It would be great to hear what the likes of Kiraitu might
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Post by miguna on Feb 4, 2006 5:46:55 GMT 3
Where there is credible evidence like in the Anglo Fleecing and other related scams as well as in the Goldenberg scam, the accused should be arrested immediately, charged and prosecuted. A fair trial before an independent court of competent jurisdiction should then be accorded.
However, you can't seriously expect those accused to be given an opportunity to respond in public. We are not going to conduct a trial in the public gallery. Therefore, the suggestion or implication that somehow these thieves must respond to the accusations in public is dead wrong.
That is not how the judicial system works. You investigate, collect evidence [which has been done; more than enough evidence is already there, including public confessions], charge, prosecute and the convict or acquit. That's the process. Anything else being offered here is ignorant mumbo jumbo!
[unedited]
-Miguna-
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Post by mossad on Feb 6, 2006 0:20:01 GMT 3
@ Kamalet
What seem to be the case here is that after Githongo gave his side of the story, we got no reply or the other side of the story from those implicated in the anglo leasing scam. All they told us is the same nonsense we got from moi and his defenders on how sickening we were for questioning them. Note: all are guilty as charged in kenya where the law is only there to protect the rich, the powerful and the corrupt.
Mossad.
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Post by kamalet on Feb 6, 2006 8:59:39 GMT 3
However, you can't seriously expect those accused to be given an opportunity to respond in public. We are not going to conduct a trial in the public gallery. Therefore, the suggestion or implication that somehow these thieves must respond to the accusations in public is dead wrong. That is not how the judicial system works. You investigate, collect evidence [which has been done; more than enough evidence is already there, including public confessions], charge, prosecute and the convict or acquit. That's the process. Anything else being offered here is ignorant mumbo jumbo! [unedited] -Miguna- So what to you do with the evidence being flounted in the public gallery? Should not have Githongo presented the evidence in court so that these thieves can respond in their defence to the allegations there? At least that way no puiblic gallery trial would have taken place!!! But as a credible lawyer suggested after seeing the report, even a 1st year law student will tell you that what is contained in the Githongo dossier cannot even be admissible in court as evidence leave alone help in obtaining a conviction!! |
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Post by aeichener on Feb 6, 2006 12:37:34 GMT 3
Kamalet:
The "executive summary" of the report which you have seen - the real report is 91 pages long - could indeed not be used as evidence in the sense of procedural law. It is a summary of evidence at best, as it should be.
And once again, you make the same mistake as many others: you mix up the spheres. You should not do that. One is the sphere of criminal responsibility and sanction; the other is the sphere of political responsibility and accountability. And the latter indeed is unknown to Kenyan political life yet. That must change.
Alexander
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Post by kamalet on Feb 6, 2006 14:42:53 GMT 3
Alex,
If you can not find anything in the exec-summary then surely it must be faulty! I do not need to read the entire 91 pages is the 19 page summary contains nothing I con go on with....seriously!
Kamale
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Post by aeichener on Feb 6, 2006 15:08:41 GMT 3
Kamalet:
But you now continue to make the same mistake. Why?
A.
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Post by miguna on Feb 7, 2006 0:38:15 GMT 3
Kamau:
You may have lots of faith in some first year law student's explanation as to the "utility" or "non use" of Githongo's Statement, however, you missed my point.
First, I have long called for the arrest and prosecutions of these thieves. After that, yes, we will wait for the evidence to be adduced, and I will certainly call upon everyone to accord the accused all due process of law. But THEY MUST FIRST BE ARRESTED.
The problem here is that thieves are standing on podiums and calling press conferences all over the country in order "to defend" themselves.
This is unacceptable.
These people should be defending themselves in court, AFTER BEING ARRESTED & CHARGED.
So, if you are calling for the same thing, by all means, I'm with you.
However, if you want to commit some clever mischief by insinuating that we should be allowing these people to test Githongo's evidence in public and BEFORE their arrests and prosecutions, then, my friend, that is what I call delusion.
And second - as is often stated - a politician is a public servant.
When the Boss (the public) says that she or he no longer trusts the SERVANT because s/he has "evidence", however weak that evidence might be perceived to be, that the SERVANT has STOLEN from the BOSS, it is expected that the SERVANT shall either be FIRED by the BOSS or RESIGNS before the boss acts.
But in Kenya, the servant has been shown to be a thief, but rather than do the honourable thing, the servant mounts the rostrums all over the country in order to DECLARE HIMSELF OR HERSELF INNOCENT. And the police, KACC, president, AG - all those big mouthed toothless dogs and thieves out there, have resorted to consorting with the thieves (and occasionally barking aimlessly) instead of BITING the thieves. This, my friend, Kamau, is unacceptable.
I honestly don't see how anyone with the ability to think clearly can pretend to "protect" these thieves.
[unedited]
-Miguna-
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