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Post by okhunyanye on Jan 23, 2010 7:22:17 GMT 3
Sadik: Before you attack somebody based on their 'kizungu' and how it came by 'meli,' please remove the log from your own eye. Adongo
.......You seem to make a habit of accusing me of tribalism simply to draw attention away from yourself and in the process attract your hounds to try and tear me apart but your mission have failed miserably.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 23, 2010 7:42:36 GMT 3
Sadik: Before you attack somebody based on their 'kizungu' and how it came by 'meli,' please remove the log from your own eye. Adongo
.......You seem to make a habit of accusing me of tribalism simply to draw attention away from yourself and in the process attract your hounds to try and tear me apart but your mission have failed miserably. OkhunyanyeThank you, I should have used 'has' not 'have'. Please note ' the log from your own eye' is repetition/redudancy. 'your' is possessive, so no need to add 'own'. PeopleI am humbled you read my posts with such vigour. Please concentrate on the topic.
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Post by tiskie on Jan 23, 2010 7:48:02 GMT 3
It seems to me that Miguna Miguna has become the 3rd rail of Jukwaa politics (after Raila and Obama). It amazes me that in most Jukwaaites' eyes these guys can say no wrong, do no wrong and their wisdom is unquestionable. That MM's defenders in Jukwaa have chalked Buke's opinion to envy and jealousy is laughable. There are many Kenyans (including right here in Jukwaa) with impeccable human rights record and an intellectual capacity to match who see no need to publicize said record and/or academic credentials. MM's problem has always been his bloated ego (witness this gem "I forgive them for they know not what they are doing" - what?). As far as Sadik's views on Jukwaa are concerned, I will not go that far but it is becoming clear that Jukwaa is a pro-ODM/Raila forum (Jukwaa ina wenyewe?). Any dissenting view is largely treated with disdain (if you are not with us, you are against us?) as if people cannot be pro-Raila/ODM but with differing opinions. Lastly, as a Kenyan and I do not care for Kibaki or Raila, PNU or ODM, as long as change is effected in Kenya that will uplift and benefit Kenyans (it does not necessarily have to be an ODM-driven kind of change). Kenyamoja I recall you complaining to the Jukwaa administrator about other members labeling each other on here and being tribalists.. So my question to is is why are you doing the same here ati this forum is pro-ODM and most members on here support ODM? what is your beef? Jukwaa members are from all political parties in Kenya and the discussions on here are very healthy.. Stop trying to rubbish jukwa forum.. if you are not happy here, hey there are many other forums to join nobody is forcing you to stick around here.... but labeling members Pro-ODM " adding George Bush Slurs here "ati you are either with us or against us" I just find it too childish to comment !! enough said!! tribal slurs are at Mashada & kumekucha that's where your above post belongs!!! JUKWAA IS A FREE FORUM AND EVERY KENYAN IS WELCOME TO POST.. MEMBERS HERE ARE VERY OPEN TO ALL DISCUSSION EXCEPT A FEW PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO ARE TRYING TO DUMP RUBBISH ON HERE!!GET A REALITY CHECK PLEASE!! after reading your post, you seem to be a PNU closet cheerleader!! it is time you come out officially!!instead of labeling and pointing fingers at other members here..
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Post by okhunyanye on Jan 23, 2010 8:31:56 GMT 3
Saadik:Thank you for bringing my attention to the tautology. I will try and be mindful of that next time. Now that it's petty season in jukwaa, I hope you wont mind terribly if I point out the following: a) You need to work on the length of your sentences. They are too long and winded. One of your sentences, below, has 42 words. The one I pasted in my post above has 37 words. Thats a NO NOb) Work on punctuation marks (commas and full stops) in your sentences. (the post below, for example, breaks every rule on how punctuation marks should be used in sentences). Mr Buke I have followed with admiration your fight against the tyranny of Moi to which your paid dearly, however, I know history will be kind to you. When you were a leader of SONU, I was High School student and when I joined UoN, albeit for a short time, you were no longer there. In my view, you have earned your voice in the liberation and can say what you will and take whatever stand you admire in the political discourse unveiling in Kenya today. I am in no position to judge you. What I admire about you, is that you decided to work with someone not from your tribe unlike your 'comrades' who ended up working for their 'tribal' leaders. As for your views about one, Miguna, I am in no state to comment. As for the negative comments I read here in Jukwaa about you, all I hope for is that you remain true to yourself and your dreams, for many out there will stifle you in the hope of reaching their land of Canaan. As a postscript, to me Jukwaa is synonymous with jaluo.com with a good dose of nyatiti. God bless, wishing you well.Sadik
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Post by roughrider on Jan 23, 2010 9:53:44 GMT 3
Unfortunately, we must ask Sadik to speak sense or risk dismissal as an empty headed charlatan.
Here, we had a straightforward quarrel. Wafula Buke wrote a strange and grossly inaccurate piece attacking Miguna and others for hogging the limelight as reformers yet they were mere exiles who were not brave enough to stay and suffer Moi’s torture at home.
Some of us wondered if Wafula was acquainted with Miguna’s long history of struggle, or better yet, recent contributions to katiba review and post-election harmony. We called Wafula out and many asked: why is Wafula attacking a comrade? Could he shed some more light? Why can’t he question the substance of Miguna’s views instead of personalizing his quarrel?
Then comes Sadik, smug from London or whatever capital he hides in, writing faster than his brain can think. Jaluo this, jaluo that! It is only tribalists who can see ethnicity in this quarrel. Some Kenyans have turned this habit into an art form: seeing tribes where non-exist. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal. Sadik, try to internalize this logic before puking putrid stuff again.
Miguna is a coalition advisor, and alongside Prof Mutakha Kangu and others, an ODM technocrat in the constitutional review process. Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors. Wafula Buke should come here and tell us what is it that he is doing to support social and political transformation in Kenya today
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 23, 2010 10:11:27 GMT 3
Okhunyanye
The two issues for which you accused me are not 'mistakes' in my english. They are rather style, shape and mannerism of my writing. Yours may differ with mine.
For example, when you wrote " Thank you for bringing my attention to the tautology".
I would have kept 'bringing to' together - hence said, "thank you for bringing to my attention..."
Omundu
Having read your two posts, I form the view that you are infrequent to Jukwaa. Allow me to explain. From my observations, I classify Jukwaa pundits into three - the serious contributors, the serious antagonists and the bendera hufuata upepo type.
The serious contributors are the one who have view on issues and are able to defend such views. The antagonists are the ones to oppose everything put forward by specific contributors sometimes in a juvenile manner, and the last grouping are those who only follow others, have not contribution to make but are attack 'dogs' when the master label someone, they unleash attacks on the person without attacking the message to please their master. The irony is that sometimes the antagonists blur into the last group.
I shall leave you to figure out who is who, from this thread.
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Post by tiskie on Jan 23, 2010 10:22:24 GMT 3
OkhunyanyeThe two issues for which you accused me are not 'mistakes' in my english. They are rather style, shape and mannerism of my writing. Yours may differ with mine. For example, when you wrote " Thank you for bringing my attention to the tautology". I would have kept 'bringing to' together - hence said, "thank you for bringing to my attention..." OmunduHaving read your two posts, I form the view that you are infrequent to Jukwaa. Allow me to explain. From my observations, I classify Jukwaa pundits into three - the serious contributors, the serious antagonists and the bendera hufuata upepo type. The serious contributors are the one who have view on issues and are able to defend such views. The antagonists are the ones to oppose everything put forward by specific contributors sometimes in a juvenile manner, and the last grouping are those who only follow others, have not contribution to make but are attack 'dogs' when the master label someone, they unleash attacks on the person without attacking the message to please their master. The irony is that sometimes the antagonists blur into the last group. I shall leave you to figure out who is who, from this thread. nice try I guess you already figured you fall under this category "they unleash attacks on the person without attacking the message to please their master." and I'm still trying to figure out who is your master:)? enuff said!!
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 23, 2010 10:48:05 GMT 3
Unfortunately, we must ask Sadik to speak sense or risk dismissal as an empty headed charlatan. Here, we had a straightforward quarrel. Wafula Buke wrote a strange and grossly inaccurate piece attacking Miguna and others for hogging the limelight as reformers yet they were mere exiles who were not brave enough to stay and suffer Moi’s torture at home. Some of us wondered if Wafula was acquainted with Miguna’s long history of struggle, or better yet, recent contributions to katiba review and post-election harmony. We called Wafula out and many asked: why is Wafula attacking a comrade? Could he shed some more light? Why can’t he question the substance of Miguna’s views instead of personalizing his quarrel? Then comes Sadik, smug from London or whatever capital he hides in, writing faster than his brain can think. Jaluo this, jaluo that! It is only tribalists who can see ethnicity in this quarrel. Some Kenyans have turned this habit into an art form: seeing tribes where non-exist. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal. Sadik, try to internalize this logic before puking putrid stuff again. Miguna is a coalition advisor, and alongside Prof Mutakha Kangu and others, an ODM technocrat in the constitutional review process. Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors. Wafula Buke should come here and tell us what is it that he is doing to support social and political transformation in Kenya today Roughrider You cannot hide under the disclaimer, "from what you know", which is not good enough an excuse to accuse Wafula Buke for organising hecklers, ferry bribes bad couriers of filthy rumours. Please substantiate you accusation or you risk being the charlatan, here. Kenyans agree that Wafula Buke has earned his place in the liberation and I doubt he should seek your approval to criticize anyone he wishes, especially one, Miguna with whom he was in SONU. My comment of tribal allegiances is factual :- Kibisu Kabateesi with Mudavadi, , David Murathe with Uhuru, Miguna with Raila Onyango Oloo with Orengo and later with Mwandawiro Wafula Buke with Ruto. Your attack on Wafula Buke is uncalled for, and your stance against that patriot is to say the least shameful. The arrogance with which you carry yourself is petrifying and I can only surmise it is because of the premiership of Raila.
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Post by okhunyanye on Jan 23, 2010 11:03:22 GMT 3
Sadik:Instead of: For example, when you wrote " Thank you for bringing my attention to the tautology".I would have put it this way: Emphasis is placed on the position of the punctuation mark, but then I digress. The blatant truth is that what you call 'style,' 'shape,' mannerism' has nothing to do with any of the above; Rather, it's verbiage advised against in any English 101 class. Kindly therefore revisit the highlighted part in my previous post - repeated HERE for your benefit. English, after all, is our second language. Even for those who hold claim to it as a first language, such as George W. Bush, speaking and writing in English continues to be a daily struggle. Speaking of tautology, do you see the log in your eye that I alluded to, earlier, in the piece below? CHECKMATE. Mr Buke .....As for the negative comments I read here in Jukwaa about you, all I hope for is that you remain true to yourself.......Sadik
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Post by nereah on Jan 23, 2010 14:17:18 GMT 3
oo's diplomacy's seems not fruitful. my son tommy has just drawn my attention to an article published in the latest issue of odm leaning weekly,sunday express. it is titled :miguna miguna,'a cut and paste civil servant' and in its entirity, a word by word to the article posted here.
it also has the picture of buke. from the accompanied photo i can tell that he looks pretty younger than his old comrades miguna miguna and onyango oloo.
curiously all mainstream newspapers have apparently ignored the vitriolic attack on our miguna except the sunday express which oloo worked for as a political editor and introduced jukwaa to. could sunday express have chosen to publish the article to scuttle oloo's diplomatic initaitive and therefore embarrass oloo?
i call this a low blow. trust me, this is a fodder for those odm mps ,especially the nyando mp,who sees this great son of africa as a threat. pnu would love it too.
it is also instructive to note that anti-miguna forces have chosen an odm friendly media to lunch the attack.could it be because miguna used a publication percieved as pnu friendly to attack kkk.
now that the damage has been done, i think miguna miguna should counter this offensive in the same space and forum.
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Post by okhunyanye on Jan 23, 2010 14:37:04 GMT 3
Nereah: In fairness to Buke, Oloo's mediation efforts were made after the former's article had already been dispatched to various media outlets (round about the time you were breaking this news). Once the article was out of Buke's hands, it was just a matter of when the papers would decide to publish it.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jan 23, 2010 15:10:55 GMT 3
Folks,
I don't see anything wrong with Buke launching or continuing an attack on Miguna if that is what he thinks is good for him or for whoever he works for or even if that is what he sincerely believes. That is his right and nobody, not even Oloo should try to block that. To the best of my knowledge, there is no law which says that people who have known each other in the past cannot fight it out when they disagree or even be arch enemies. Oloo pointed out that Wafula Buke today works for William Ruto as his Personal Assistant. Miguna on the other hand works for Raila Odinga as his advisor. Obviously both Buke and Miguna hold their bosses in very high regard and since those two bosses do not see eye to eye on many issues I will not be surprised if their employees have issues with each other.
My problem with Buke's piece was very simple. I think his attempt to question Miguna's patriotism and right to live and work in Kenya was despicable to say the least and I gave my reasons for that. I am not going to waste time repeating what I said. I think Miguna has every right to work in Kenya just as Buke has every right to work for Ruto whatever some of his old comrades may think about his boss.
Miguna to the best of my knowledge has never at any one time written or spoken anything about or against Buke, but Miguna did have some harsh words against Ruto and Moi. So it is quite safe to say Buke may be attacking Miguna as part of his work for Ruto. If that is so I am fine with it. That is work. But if it is his firmly held belief then I have issues with it because it is just utterly wrong.
Should Miguna get into a pissing contest with Buke? My advice is no. It is not worth it. That is what I think. But that is Miguna's choice to make. Personally I think that at this critical time Kenyan activists have more urgent things to do than launch frivolous attacks on each other. But then again what do I know. Historically Kenyan activists rarely engage in this kind of thing. You will hardly ever find Willy Mutunga launching a scathing attack on Maina Kiai for example even if sometimes they may disagree. People just don't have energy for that. But may be things have changed. For the better, I hope.
But today I was actually going to write about jukwaa seeing as some people have been grappling with what jukwaa is, what it does, who it serves etc. And then we have those who have found it convenient to slap tribal labels on Jukwaa.
But since the Buke/Miguna saga is back I will keep that for another day so people can feast on what they have on the menu today.
But just for the record let me state that the origins of Jukwaa goes back to 1990/91. That is when Onyango Oloo, Wangari Muruiki, Atieno Odenyo, Kathure Kebaara and myself started HAKI, a Kenyan Human Rights magazine. Initially we had published a human rights report of Kenya and got very good feedback so we felt it was a good idea to launch a regular magazine.
So once we finish with this Buke business I will take Jukwaa readers along that journey when the words ODM or PNU could very well be the names of our neighbours dogs. They didn't exist in Kenyan politics and yet we were publishing stuff. About what? That will be a story for another day.
adongo
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Post by roughrider on Jan 23, 2010 16:59:06 GMT 3
Unfortunately, we must ask Sadik to speak sense or risk dismissal as an empty headed charlatan. Here, we had a straightforward quarrel. Wafula Buke wrote a strange and grossly inaccurate piece attacking Miguna and others for hogging the limelight as reformers yet they were mere exiles who were not brave enough to stay and suffer Moi’s torture at home. Some of us wondered if Wafula was acquainted with Miguna’s long history of struggle, or better yet, recent contributions to katiba review and post-election harmony. We called Wafula out and many asked: why is Wafula attacking a comrade? Could he shed some more light? Why can’t he question the substance of Miguna’s views instead of personalizing his quarrel? Then comes Sadik, smug from London or whatever capital he hides in, writing faster than his brain can think. Jaluo this, jaluo that! It is only tribalists who can see ethnicity in this quarrel. Some Kenyans have turned this habit into an art form: seeing tribes where non-exist. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal. Sadik, try to internalize this logic before puking putrid stuff again. Miguna is a coalition advisor, and alongside Prof Mutakha Kangu and others, an ODM technocrat in the constitutional review process. Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors. Wafula Buke should come here and tell us what is it that he is doing to support social and political transformation in Kenya today Roughrider You cannot hide under the disclaimer, "from what you know", which is not good enough an excuse to accuse Wafula Buke for organising hecklers, ferry bribes bad couriers of filthy rumours. Please substantiate you accusation or you risk being the charlatan, here. Kenyans agree that Wafula Buke has earned his place in the liberation and I doubt he should seek your approval to criticize anyone he wishes, especially one, Miguna with whom he was in SONU. My comment of tribal allegiances is factual :- Kibisu Kabateesi with Mudavadi, , David Murathe with Uhuru, Miguna with Raila Onyango Oloo with Orengo and later with Mwandawiro Wafula Buke with Ruto. Your attack on Wafula Buke is uncalled for, and your stance against that patriot is to say the least shameful. The arrogance with which you carry yourself is petrifying and I can only surmise it is because of the premiership of Raila. Oh Sadik, let me simply repeat what I said earlier. This logic shouldn’t evade you. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal.And clearly you have forgotten several Kikuyu, Kipsigis, Luhyia and others who work with Mr Odinga. Or the numerous Nandi that work with Ruto? Will you ask me to name names? Aha I am in the middle of Njenga Karumes book, beyond expectations. He regales us with stories about Jomo Kenyatta. In this case the behavior of one of his assistants, a Wanyoike Thungu, comes to mind. This man tried to fix Karume. Mr. Thungu also carried out some very insidious errands for Kenyatta. Oathings and stuff. From what we know Sadik. From what we know.
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Post by kenyamoja on Jan 23, 2010 18:12:21 GMT 3
It seems to me that Miguna Miguna has become the 3rd rail of Jukwaa politics (after Raila and Obama). It amazes me that in most Jukwaaites' eyes these guys can say no wrong, do no wrong and their wisdom is unquestionable. That MM's defenders in Jukwaa have chalked Buke's opinion to envy and jealousy is laughable. There are many Kenyans (including right here in Jukwaa) with impeccable human rights record and an intellectual capacity to match who see no need to publicize said record and/or academic credentials. MM's problem has always been his bloated ego (witness this gem "I forgive them for they know not what they are doing" - what?). As far as Sadik's views on Jukwaa are concerned, I will not go that far but it is becoming clear that Jukwaa is a pro-ODM/Raila forum (Jukwaa ina wenyewe?). Any dissenting view is largely treated with disdain (if you are not with us, you are against us?) as if people cannot be pro-Raila/ODM but with differing opinions. Lastly, as a Kenyan and I do not care for Kibaki or Raila, PNU or ODM, as long as change is effected in Kenya that will uplift and benefit Kenyans (it does not necessarily have to be an ODM-driven kind of change). after reading your post, you seem to be a PNU closet cheerleader!! it is time you come out officially!!instead of labeling and pointing fingers at other members here.. Tiskie, my point precisely (so I guess if one's postings and/or views do not follow or conform with the general thought here in Jukwaa then he/she must be a PNU sympathiser?)
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Post by tnk on Jan 23, 2010 19:16:35 GMT 3
roughrider
admire your courage
the one thing am certain of in todays kenya/world, its an uphill task to win an argument against a tribalist.
all evidence presented must out of necessity include the tribal tag as part of the defence e.g am not a tribalist because i easily relate to/work with that other tribe over there.
the mere mention of the tribal tag no matter the intention or context "automajically" throws you into the same cess pit and exposes one to further attack. in the end its a sad mess
figuratively its like walking down a street in nairobi and coming across one of those guys who walk around with poop-in-a-bag (not sure they still do this n'a'days), suppose you decide to dis-arm or dis-poop this fellow. regardless of how successful or unsuccessful your venture may turn out, definite outcomes will be
a) the tools of his trade will rub off on you b) the stench will follow you a long ways back home c) the stench remains with you many days after even if you wash thoroughly every 2 hours
personally prefer to react to all tribal leaning rants as i would these miscreants, cross the road, you are in the wrong neighbourhood ;D
now of course there comes a time when they must be confronted head on, in such cases we send those well geared for the task
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Post by merkeju on Jan 23, 2010 20:40:46 GMT 3
Buke was there from the strugle aganist Moi dictatorship to working with Moi before the 2002 fall of Moi and KANU,did Miguna see Raila working with Moi as a betrayal to the struggle or part of the struggle itself,i bet if he was on the ground he would have seen things differently,during referendum without the help of Ruto we were able to defeat the draft constitution which could have been a disaster to kenyans,Miguna wasn't around.Ruto might not be a reformer but he did his part in 2005 and 2007,that's why even Raila himself has not attacked Ruto publicly,Ruto is still in ODM let Miguna hold his horses and instead of writing articles on newspapers attacking the characters of other individuals,he his the advisor to the prime minister and not personal assistant,if he wants to be a political activist then he should quit as the advisor and concentrate in winning parliamentary seat.as malcom x said there are two types of negroes,house negroes who got the best clothes and food which the master had before and the plantation negroes who toiled the whole day farming,with torn clothes,little food,no education.The house negroes will take care of the master when they are sick but the plantation negroes will pray for the masters death,when the masters house catches fire the plantation negroes will pray for a strong wind but the house negroes will risk their lifes to put out the fire.That applies in Kenya,the mau mau fought in the bushes but those who worked for the white man got all the best farms,houses,education.Those who never stood up against injustice benefited through out there lifes,the kibakis,kenyattas,mois,kalonzos,michukis,Rutos and many more in real life who are more of house negroes than plantation negroes ready to please the western master,making happy so that he will say "good boy" and keep the donations coming,we want to act like the white man,the black americans have tried to do that and still they are not americans they are called african american,you will never hear of irish american or jew american because they are american citizens,whereas american citizen are covered under the constitution,the blacks are still fighting for equal rights,in kenya we are bushy persecuting our fellow africans just to please the americans who don't even appreciate the black people in their own country after enslaving them.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jan 23, 2010 21:08:24 GMT 3
merkeju
You bring up something I want to talk about at length but right now time is not on my side.
This notion that when someone is an "activist" they shouldn't be working in the "civil service" whatever that means is quite bothersome. It follows according to this bizarre argument that if Miguna behaves like an activist he should not be working for the Prime Minister of Kenya. This idea in my view is one of the most reactionary things I hear very often. It is scary. It is as if activism is a sin that people have to be saved from before they can work in certain jobs.
Strangely when I first heard those arguments it was in 2003 in Nairobi when some big shots whom I won't name kept insisting the activists should not be given jobs because they are only good at demonstrations. Believe it or not the argument was directed at the likes of Buke who nobody wanted to give a job.
In my view Kenyans have a right to work, activist or no activist. People should not be enslaved and barred from even writing articles if they want to work. Why don't they just employ robots then. The Japanese can make some for them.
Whether Miguna should attack Ruto publicly is up for debate. While I hold Miguna's right to work if I was him I wouldn't do it in his position. He needs to negotiate with those people. Moi is fair game to me. But that is just my opinion. But those who want to put hand cuffs on Miguna because he is working for the PM are insulting the rights of all Kenyans to hold opinions and to express them.
As the house negroes and and plantation negroes I will say more later. But I know there are probably more house negroes inside the country than outside. To me it is a distraction and unnecessary debate, but if people want to have it, we will.
But really, at this very moment we have a monumental battle for the new constitution going on. I don't know what Buke thinks about the new constitution. But I would find it insane that at this very time we have to spend so much energy on this petty fights about which activist stayed in the country and did more and which did not. And then to have so many onlookers and others cheering the fight on. It is practically a useless and nonsensical battle whatever purpose it serves.
How about ordinary Kenyans who have never left their country and have no intention to. My mother died without a passport. She never needed one. She never asked for one. She was just a simple peasant woman who took care of us as if we were jewels. All six of us, her living "children". She is the greatest human being I have known in my most critical moments as a person. There are so many days she didn't eat so we could. We knew it but she kept pretending she ate before. We knew she didn't. Right on our hands we had a mother who was starving to save her children. Us. It is not a very good feeling. Quite frankly I would like to have another cup of tea with the old lady. She loved it.
My sisters, nephews and nieces, my whole family live in Kenya. We work together to survive. So who is anybody to define my Kenyanness for me than them? Why would somebody want to rob me of my national identity as a Kenyan? Whose purpose does that serve? Certainly not my mom's. I know that.
Not Ruto, Raila, Miguna or Buke is going to send money tomorrow for my nephew who is pulling out of a massive malaria attack. The kid had to be hospitalized in Kisumu for two weeks with her mom. This was the bad one. They spent a lot of money to save the kid. Now we have to go a few steps up to ensure he does not miss the medical schedule. And someone wants to lecture me about Kenyanness. Please. I live there every day. Thank you, sir.
Sometimes I feel lucky I am not employed by any politician. I intend to keep it that way for a long time. I would rather be employed by my aunt in the village to milk her cows. She knows I would do a good job. The problem is the pay. She would probably want to pay me in cow milk as "shillings". That is a big problem. I can tell you that.
Listen, Raila worked with Moi and even Ruto and I see nothing wrong with that. We have said as much here on Jukwaa. In fact some of us were once accused of supporting Ruto. We make no apologies for that. If I was to work for Opiyo my torturer at Nyayo House as my boss (writing my pay chaque) I will have to make that call and nobody else can do it for me. That would be a very tough call. That is all I will say for now.
adongo
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Post by adongo23456 on Jan 24, 2010 6:41:09 GMT 3
merkeju & Others
Sorry, but on second, third and fourth thoughts I changed my mind about expanding further on the Kenyanness debate as I promised in the post above. That time will come. Obviously. Those who want to advance that debate can go ahead. Good luck to them.
But I did update the piece I posted above just a little to express some of my concerns on the matter from a personal and family perspective. That means the world to me.
Then I figured, you know what, this is a waste of time. Let's move on. There is a long road a head of us. It is time to cover some distance on that long road, folks. That is where I am going. Lets meet there. I know we will for the good of the nation. God cheers folks.
Lets get there.
Thank you very much.
adongo
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Post by einstein on Jan 24, 2010 8:39:04 GMT 3
merkejuBut really, at this very moment we have a monumental battle for the new constitution going on. I don't know what Buke thinks about the new constitution. But I would find it insane that at this very time we have to spend so much energy on this petty fights about which activist stayed in the country and did more and which did not. And then to have so many onlookers and others cheering the fight on. It is practically a useless and nonsensical battle whatever purpose it serves. adongo Adongo,Well said. Let's move on. This cat fight is nothing but a distraction. One day Buke will understand that Kenyans are Kenyans whether they are living in the diaspora ( the refugees according to Buke) or living within the boundaries of the Kenyan Republic.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 24, 2010 9:02:43 GMT 3
Roughrider
This is what you said,
" Unfortunately, we must ask Sadik to speak sense or risk dismissal as an empty headed charlatan.
Here, we had a straightforward quarrel. Wafula Buke wrote a strange and grossly inaccurate piece attacking Miguna and others for hogging the limelight as reformers yet they were mere exiles who were not brave enough to stay and suffer Moi’s torture at home.
Some of us wondered if Wafula was acquainted with Miguna’s long history of struggle, or better yet, recent contributions to katiba review and post-election harmony. We called Wafula out and many asked: why is Wafula attacking a comrade? Could he shed some more light? Why can’t he question the substance of Miguna’s views instead of personalizing his quarrel?
Then comes Sadik, smug from London or whatever capital he hides in, writing faster than his brain can think. Jaluo this, jaluo that! It is only tribalists who can see ethnicity in this quarrel. Some Kenyans have turned this habit into an art form: seeing tribes where non-exist. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal. Sadik, try to internalize this logic before puking putrid stuff again.
Miguna is a coalition advisor, and alongside Prof Mutakha Kangu and others, an ODM technocrat in the constitutional review process. Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors. Wafula Buke should come here and tell us what is it that he is doing to support social and political transformation in Kenya today".
I am reproducing the offending remark.
"Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors".
I have underlined the slanderous and defamatory information in your post.
You therefore must either substantiate and corroborate that statement, or withdraw it.
Wafula Buke has grounds of issuing a writ on defamation.
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Post by tnk on Jan 24, 2010 9:37:31 GMT 3
RoughriderI have underlined the slanderous and defamatory information in your post. You therefore must either substantiate and colloborate that statement, or withdraw it. Wafula Buke has grounds of issuing a writ on defamation. am sure you mean corroborate
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Post by adongo23456 on Jan 24, 2010 9:38:06 GMT 3
RoughriderThis is what you said, " Unfortunately, we must ask Sadik to speak sense or risk dismissal as an empty headed charlatan. Here, we had a straightforward quarrel. Wafula Buke wrote a strange and grossly inaccurate piece attacking Miguna and others for hogging the limelight as reformers yet they were mere exiles who were not brave enough to stay and suffer Moi’s torture at home. Some of us wondered if Wafula was acquainted with Miguna’s long history of struggle, or better yet, recent contributions to katiba review and post-election harmony. We called Wafula out and many asked: why is Wafula attacking a comrade? Could he shed some more light? Why can’t he question the substance of Miguna’s views instead of personalizing his quarrel? Then comes Sadik, smug from London or whatever capital he hides in, writing faster than his brain can think. Jaluo this, jaluo that! It is only tribalists who can see ethnicity in this quarrel. Some Kenyans have turned this habit into an art form: seeing tribes where non-exist. To be a Luo and an advisor to a Luo is not to be necessarily tribal. To be a Luhyia and a personal assistant to a Nandi is not necessarily to be non-tribal. Sadik, try to internalize this logic before puking putrid stuff again. Miguna is a coalition advisor, and alongside Prof Mutakha Kangu and others, an ODM technocrat in the constitutional review process. Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors. Wafula Buke should come here and tell us what is it that he is doing to support social and political transformation in Kenya today". I am reproducing the offending remark."Wafula Buke on the other hand is said to be William Ruto’s personal assistant. From what we know, political personal assistants organize hecklers, ferry bribes and are couriers of filthy rumors". I have underlined the slanderous and defamatory information in your post. You therefore must either substantiate and colloborate that statement, or withdraw it. Wafula Buke has grounds of issuing a writ on defamation. Sadik, Friends & All,Is this really necessary? I think Einstein tried to re-frame the debate to the national issues at hand. I would rather we explore that path. May be I am wrong. adongo
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Jan 24, 2010 9:40:14 GMT 3
Buke was there from the strugle aganist Moi dictatorship to working with Moi before the 2002 fall of Moi and KANU,did Miguna see Raila working with Moi as a betrayal to the struggle or part of the struggle itself,i bet if he was on the ground he would have seen things differently,during referendum without the help of Ruto we were able to defeat the draft constitution which could have been a disaster to kenyans,Miguna wasn't around.Ruto might not be a reformer but he did his part in 2005 and 2007,that's why even Raila himself has not attacked Ruto publicly,Ruto is still in ODM let Miguna hold his horses and instead of writing articles on newspapers attacking the characters of other individuals,he his the advisor to the prime minister and not personal assistant,if he wants to be a political activist then he should quit as the advisor and concentrate in winning parliamentary seat.as malcom x said there are two types of negroes,house negroes who got the best clothes and food which the master had before and the plantation negroes who toiled the whole day farming,with torn clothes,little food,no education.The house negroes will take care of the master when they are sick but the plantation negroes will pray for the masters death,when the masters house catches fire the plantation negroes will pray for a strong wind but the house negroes will risk their lifes to put out the fire.That applies in Kenya,the mau mau fought in the bushes but those who worked for the white man got all the best farms,houses,education.Those who never stood up against injustice benefited through out there lifes,the kibakis,kenyattas,mois,kalonzos,michukis,Rutos and many more in real life who are more of house negroes than plantation negroes ready to please the western master,making happy so that he will say "good boy" and keep the donations coming,we want to act like the white man,the black americans have tried to do that and still they are not americans they are called african american,you will never hear of irish american or jew american because they are american citizens,whereas american citizen are covered under the constitution,the blacks are still fighting for equal rights,in kenya we are bushy persecuting our fellow africans just to please the americans who don't even appreciate the black people in their own country after enslaving them. MerkejuYou have put down serious issues about the perception of working for and working with in Kenyan politics. I am not clear about your analogy to the African-American scenario, but I feel you frustrations. ODM was suppose to be broad-church welcoming all sorts of people, taping their abilities and horning on their skills. People were equal within it - sharing leadership and vision. ODM using its people won the Draft, placed Raila in Presidential pedestal, and uniquely united Kenyan from all region save one. What did that yield? A lording grouping - short sightness and serious chest thumping. That is my view.
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Post by adongo23456 on Jan 24, 2010 9:46:01 GMT 3
Buke was there from the strugle aganist Moi dictatorship to working with Moi before the 2002 fall of Moi and KANU,did Miguna see Raila working with Moi as a betrayal to the struggle or part of the struggle itself,i bet if he was on the ground he would have seen things differently,during referendum without the help of Ruto we were able to defeat the draft constitution which could have been a disaster to kenyans,Miguna wasn't around.Ruto might not be a reformer but he did his part in 2005 and 2007,that's why even Raila himself has not attacked Ruto publicly,Ruto is still in ODM let Miguna hold his horses and instead of writing articles on newspapers attacking the characters of other individuals,he his the advisor to the prime minister and not personal assistant,if he wants to be a political activist then he should quit as the advisor and concentrate in winning parliamentary seat.as malcom x said there are two types of negroes,house negroes who got the best clothes and food which the master had before and the plantation negroes who toiled the whole day farming,with torn clothes,little food,no education.The house negroes will take care of the master when they are sick but the plantation negroes will pray for the masters death,when the masters house catches fire the plantation negroes will pray for a strong wind but the house negroes will risk their lifes to put out the fire.That applies in Kenya,the mau mau fought in the bushes but those who worked for the white man got all the best farms,houses,education.Those who never stood up against injustice benefited through out there lifes,the kibakis,kenyattas,mois,kalonzos,michukis,Rutos and many more in real life who are more of house negroes than plantation negroes ready to please the western master,making happy so that he will say "good boy" and keep the donations coming,we want to act like the white man,the black americans have tried to do that and still they are not americans they are called african american,you will never hear of irish american or jew american because they are american citizens,whereas american citizen are covered under the constitution,the blacks are still fighting for equal rights,in kenya we are bushy persecuting our fellow africans just to please the americans who don't even appreciate the black people in their own country after enslaving them. MerkejuYou have put down serious issues about the perception of working for and working with in Kenyan politics. I am not clear about your analogy to the African-American scenario, but I feel you frustrations. ODM was suppose to be broad-church welcoming all sorts of people, taping their abilities and horning on their skills. People were equal within it - sharing leadership and vision. ODM using its people won the Draft, placed Raila in Presidential pedestal, and uniquely united Kenyan from all region save one. What did that yield? A lording grouping - short sightness and serious chest thumping. That is my view. Sadik,What is this about? I am completely lost. What exactly are you talking about? Please can you help us understand this. I think it is important. I will wait for your kind response. adongo.
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Post by nereah on Jan 24, 2010 10:52:36 GMT 3
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