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Post by aeichener on Mar 18, 2006 14:57:41 GMT 3
Very simple: oppose Njoki Ndungu's draft bill. Not only is it inept and so shoddily drafted that every law student in her and his first year would faint; but materially, it would be the worst and most pernicious piece of legislation that would ever hit Kenya since the 1890s - much worse than even the worst of manjeneti legislation.
Thousands of girls and women will die every year, due to this bill; prosecutions will drop steeply; and far more sexual offenders will go scot free than they do presently already.
Do something to stop rape and sexual violence - lobby for a new law - BUT AT ALL MEANS OPPOSE THIS BILL. Write your MP and make this fat corrupt sexist slob for once in his lifetime do something and valuable; beseech, urge, implore him to oppose this evil bill.
Please!
Alexander
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Post by pharlap on Mar 18, 2006 17:25:51 GMT 3
Excuse me, but could you briefly summarize what the Draft contains? Some of us are outside the country and the nation, standard, jukwaa are the only means to get information from home. it should be a cause of concern though from your post.
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Post by mossad on Mar 18, 2006 22:30:42 GMT 3
Do something to stop rape and sexual violence - lobby for a new law - BUT AT ALL MEAN OPPOSE THIS BILL. Write your MP and make this fat corrupt sexist slob for once in his lifetime do something and valuable; beseech, urge, implore him to oppose this evil bill.
Please!
Alexander
Sir we have no clue on what the bills says and we are out of touch with the whole issue. For me to contact my local MP, i have to know what to complain about. Please just summarize it for us.
Mossad.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 20, 2006 16:53:41 GMT 3
First, I would like to apologize for not being able to answer you right on the spot. I was away on the weekend. Second, I am a bit at a loss as how to explain the obvious. I mean, how should I *argue* that slavery is bad - after all, many great civilizations have been founded on slavery? Why would colonialism have to cease? How should I reason that torture must be abolished? Some things are so clear, so evident, that a specialist is at a loss as how to argue and reason. You recognize an elephant when you see it. A bit puzzled and helpless, Alexander PS: As an afterthought, there would be a "lesser of the evils" alternative to this draft bill: "Legalize rape." The consequences would still be less desastrous than THIS law.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 20, 2006 17:39:04 GMT 3
PS: I had a look at KCO list recently. The level of sheer, utter ignorance there is absolutely breathtaking.
Nobody knows the bill, nobody has seen what it really contains, so one half asks what it is about, and the other half tries to outdo the first in shouting her or his blind support.
It is sooo saddening !!
Alexander
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Post by pharlap on Mar 20, 2006 22:48:50 GMT 3
Excuse me, but could you briefly summarize what the Draft contains? Some of us are outside the country and the nation, standard, jukwaa are the only means to get information from home. it should be a cause of concern though from your post. Still waiting................
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Post by adongo12345 on Mar 21, 2006 22:01:20 GMT 3
This is Njoki in her own words. Actually it is a very sensible Bill. The socio-economic context is much wider of course, but that is not an excuse do nothing. Also I think the media hyped up the "castration bit" which I don't think is part of the bill any more. I'll let Njoki speak for herself. allafrica.com/stories/200603080102.html
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Post by aeichener on Mar 21, 2006 23:45:42 GMT 3
Actually it is a very sensible Bill. You have not read it. I have. It is worse than any other piece of legislation ever enacted in Kenya. It will literally murder thousands of women, and will bring prosecution and conviction of sexual offences to a near stand still. It will purposely criminalize the near entirety of Kenyan youth. You are simply not educated about the issue. Alexander
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Post by actaestfabula on Mar 22, 2006 0:48:11 GMT 3
I am for the bill after following the link Adongo posted and hearing the truth from the horse's mouth. Alexander, you still haven't told us why we should oppose it... How will it murder thousands of women? acta est fabula, plaudite!
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Post by adongo12345 on Mar 22, 2006 1:02:08 GMT 3
aeichener
Folks have been asking you for about a week to furnish them with the contents of the Bill proposed by Njoki and others and it was like pulling teeth.
I basically don't know your agenda on the matter but I would presume you are concerned about violence against women in Kenya and more so sexual violence and rape.
I don't see any need for a pissinf contest with you on whether I have read the bill or not. May be it could help if you could pin point the aspects of the Bill that you believe makes it the worst legislation in Kenya.
How for example would the legislation murder thousands of women? How would it bring prosecution and conviction to a stand still, while at the same time criminalizing the near entirety of the youth?
One of our biggest weaknesses in Jukwaa is we hardly discuss issues focused on the rights of women in our country.
Could we at least use this opportunity to raise soem of these issues instead of pot shots?
Just wondering. When I have time tomorrow I will say what I think about the bill.
Adongo
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Post by aeichener on Mar 22, 2006 1:12:19 GMT 3
Hm. It may be a Kassandra complex on my side. ;-/
A.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 22, 2006 1:13:37 GMT 3
acta est fabula, plaudite! Use only signatures that you understand. Si tacuisses... A.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 22, 2006 1:15:28 GMT 3
When I have time tomorrow I will say what I think about the bill. It is not really of interest to anyone what you "think" about a bill, of which you have yourself professed above to not even know the contents. Sheeesh. A.
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Post by actaestfabula on Mar 22, 2006 1:44:11 GMT 3
acta est fabula, plaudite! Use only signatures that you understand. Si tacuisses... A. What makes you think I don't understand my signature? Just wondering... Do you yourself know what it means? I will explain if you want. I didn't speak latin before learning it so there is no shame. I didn't put the signature to brag that i speak latin, I like it,s meaning and the context in which it was said. Si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses applies better to you at this moment. Anyway, all this is crap. I am a man and I support this Bill because I feel that real men do not beat women nor do they rape them. If they do so they should be punished severely. I simply asked why you were against it, it's a simple question isn't it? Please no more personal replies...let's remain adults.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 22, 2006 2:05:22 GMT 3
I simply asked why you were against it, it's a simple question isn't it? And I have answered it. A.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 22, 2006 16:06:07 GMT 3
the "castration bit" which I don't think is part of the bill any more. I'll let you find out whether it is still part of the bill. In this process, you'll have a look at its contents for the first time. As to this specific provision - a rather minor one within the overall context - , I hope you will remember that it was treated here: demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2005/04/rapists-castration-life-sentences.htmlIncidentally, I agree with this author's overall assessment of Njoki Ndung'u as a person and politician. Alexander
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Post by johns on Mar 26, 2006 9:08:57 GMT 3
How does one start a topic and does not know what to say about it? Alex, you claim you know the details of the bill which none of us can comprehend, could you enlighten us so we might catch up with your understanding of this abomination, oh mighty Alex?
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Post by fanyamambo on Mar 28, 2006 9:39:25 GMT 3
My goodness Alexander, what on earth are you going on about. I am starting to have my doubts that you have even read the bill. What is your ARGUMENT against it. And before you abuse me and accuse me of ignorance, I HAVE read the bill, THOROUGHLY at its various stages of drafting. As it stands now the only issues I have concerns about as of its latest draft are three: 1. It has no provisions on children as perpetrators (as was the case with St Kizito) 2. It gives the AG unqualified power to stop investigations (running the risk of a Sunkuli situation with prolific suspects) 3. It emphasises child trafficking (this is good) but does not accord the sufficient attention to trafficking in adults
However, a final draft is due out this Friday. We shall wait and see.
What is Alexander's real reason for opposing this bill? It seems sinister.
This Bill MUST pass, and we are working hard to ensure it does.
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Post by aeichener on Mar 28, 2006 10:30:57 GMT 3
This bill MUST fail. Otherwise you could as well re-institute nationwide concentration camps in manjeneti style. How else can you imprison millions of people for years?
And to take up a wording of yours, the intentions of the drafters of this bill can indeed only seem sinister. There are some critics (religious loonies) who oppose the draft for other reasons, but they need not be taken serious. What needs to be taken serious is the incredible formal shoddiness and ineptitude of the text, bereft of even the flimsiest veil of legal training, and the fact that the bill attempts to criminalize the entirety of Kenyan youth. And the entirety (read: the entirety) of all dwellers in Kenyan estates. What needs to be taken serious are the nefarious consequences which I have outlined above, in my postings. The bill will create the exact *opposite* of what it falsely purports to achieve. And you know it, don't you?
The first draft version was concocted by CRADLE, as much as I know (but you are welcome to correct this assumption); much of its text was copied-and-pasted from foreign provisions totally inapplicable to, and unworkable within Kenya. Incidentally, did Moire O'Sullivan help with it too?
Alexander
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Post by aeichener on Mar 28, 2006 15:00:20 GMT 3
Rape is a sexual offence (were it not, it would be called "assault"). But rape is not only "about sex".
Rape is about power and control. Rape is about maintaining and enforcing perceived "male superiority". Rape is about subdueing the lower other (mostly women, but occasionally also men), about breaking individuality, and "putting them in their place", the same as with gaybashing.
The rapist is not a maddened lunatic (only sometimes). Neither is s/he a die-hard career criminal, a monster; ogrish as his acts are objectively, he is more often the human being next door. Rape and sexual abuse are crimes that everyman can commit. Some women too.
Rape is structurally linked to patriarchy, and more often than not linked to poverty and voicelessness. That is why on one hand, laws against sexual offences are useless on their own, but are on the other hand a much-needed complement within a larger frameset of measures. One must therefore not look at penal sanctions alone, but also at the inhumane treatment of prostitutes, at the prevailing hypocrisy in Kenyan daily life (that "moral fibre" of Kenyan society, about which OO talked in another context, is a fibre woven only of sheer hypocrisy, and nothing else), at the intolerable anti-gay and anti-lesbian provisions in criminal law, at the sexist and injust laws concerning child support (alimony) and child custody, at female inheritance (in both senses of the expression) etc. pp.
A law cannot work miracles; but it can be a helpful tool, used in unison with other measures. What a law must never be, however, is counter-productive. It must never worsen things. It must not condemn to death thousands, nay tens of thousands of women and girls who have hitherto at least been left alive after the ogrish deed. It must not criminalize the near entirety of Kenyan youth. It must not - as this law is - be classist and brutal, condemning wananchi to a life in prison for things that are not in the least bit illegitimate, while factually sparing and exonerating the rich and mighty. Being poor is not a crime, Fanyamambo. Being young is not a crime. Being in love is not a crime - which you obviously do not realize.
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." (Anatole France)
Alexander
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Post by fanyamambo on Mar 29, 2006 10:37:47 GMT 3
Alexander, I'm glad you responded. I agree completely with your analysis of rape as a patriarchal tool for power and domination. However much as I try I still am not clear on what you think is so damaging about this law. Please give me an example, I would really like to respond to it. Pick out one proposed law or clause and explain how you find it oppressive, shoddy or wrong. How does this bill worsen things? I genuinely seek your honest opinion
I do agree that a number of measures have to be taken together to address our problems. Please note that there are a number of other bills pending (some have lapsed) in parliament that address many of the issues you raise.
We are agreed that sexual offences are a problem of great magnitude in our country. A very major problem in this country when it comes to sexual offences is that there are no laid out procedures for the treatment and care of the victims, nor the investigation or punishment of perpetrators. The Sexual Offences Bill arose out of this need. The proposed bill recommends MINIMUM sentences for perpetrators, hitherto unheard of.
It also has provisions that address child trafficking, sex tourism, child prostitution, child ponorgraphy, trafficking in adults (by the way the new draft addresses the issues I raised concern over yesterday), sexual harassment, female genital mutilation, cultural and religious practices, protection of vulnerable witnesses, investigations for sexual offences - so it is quite wide in its approach.
The idea for this Bill came from the frustrations of several groups and individuals who deal with these problems both on a personal and professional level. It was felt that Kenyan law and enforcement agencies do not take these issues as seriously as they should be.
Also realise that a lot of us are in agreement about the treatment of prostitutes, and of gay and lesbian people and so many other things. But that the passing of legislation is mostly a political process through which one must tread carefully. We have a patriarchal parliament. We have to make sure that we do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. This has happened in the past.
What makes you think I think being poor, young or in love are a crime? I really need examples here
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I have come back later having re-read your response? Why do you think millions of people will be jailed for years? Is it because you feel millions of Kenyan youth and people in estates are perpetrators of the crimes I mentioned above? And if this is the case, should they not be punished? Is 10 years to life imprisonment too long a term for a rapist, or a defiler?
What kind of laws do you think we should have to address these problems?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2006 14:38:40 GMT 3
Can someone tell us where we can get a copy of the final draft of the proposed bill? I really need to see it.
Njoki Ndun'gu was defending it in Tuesday's Standard but she still did not tell us where we can read it for ourselves.
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Post by Daktari wa makazi on Mar 29, 2006 16:53:30 GMT 3
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Post by fanyamambo on Mar 30, 2006 15:11:29 GMT 3
Kathure, from my understanding the latest draft will be available at government printers from next week. It is out but so far only for distribution to the MPs. The latest is published March 24, 2006. If you are in Nairobi I can give you a copy. Previous drafts have been available at government printers for a long time but have since been withdrawn
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Post by aeichener on Mar 30, 2006 15:31:36 GMT 3
N.N. has done her utmost to keep the real, nitty-gritty contents of the draft away from the limelight; only propaganda phrases abound. An early version was publicized on the CRADLE website, as I wrote, but the whole site is defunct (sadly, because it was a very important website, with much good content).
Now, it is of course very correct if Fanyamambo maintains that the current version should be topic of debate; however, let us keep in mind that we do not speak about a few mistakes here and a few drafting inadequacies there. We speak about a law of unparalleled ignominy, and it is about impossible to amend it without constructing a completely new Bill, or (alternatively) enacting only a very few isolated provisions. Even something as - seemingly - innocuous and beneficial as the "vulnerable witness" provisions, which indeed are urgently needed, has been perverted so that it works to the contrary of what it alleges to achieve. And thus is the entire bill.
I shall write again as soon as I get the latest version; a friend has kindly endeavoured to procure it for me (N.N. would certainly jail her for 20 years, for being a "procurer"...).
Alexander
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