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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 5, 2006 23:20:32 GMT 3
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Post by maina on Apr 6, 2006 5:26:30 GMT 3
Job, Like I told you ealier and will maintain as well as continue to tell you until you get it, I will personally not comment on this whole matter any more than I already have. You are of course deservedly very free to continue propunding theories and fantasies of Uhuru Kenyatta, as well as throw up whenever you read my posts about Uhuru or Kalonzo! I believe that I am accurate in my presentation. Besides truth by definition is exclusive. Maina. P.S. ker7emmo, that is a very intersting observation. I have heard a lot of people asking that same question lately! -unedited- Gosh Maina!!! don't be that @#$% that makes the loudest noise.. with no melody and rhythm, if some people here are mouth pieces to Raila why vilify them, without any serious attempt to show the falsehood in their augments, why do you want us to believe on the purity of Uhuru and your brother in faith ? If you have to defend them then give us facts we dont know in plain english.. Jesus is one of the greatest philosophers not for the Miracles, but by his Simplicity, even young children would grasp his plausible parables and his single message of repentance and hope. Kipsang EDITED Kipsang, Happy birthday bwana! You need to stop being ridiculous! Jesus was no philosopher!!!!! What do you presume He was trying to understand or evaluate by His being a philosopher like you boldly declare? He is the philosophy itself! That's why we (humans) as life philosophers attempt to seek an understanding of His gospel so that we can examine truth and meaning! Secondly, there is nothing symbolic in my writings that intimates or explicates the fact that I am proselytizing Uhuru or Kalonzo to anyone! You might wanna read the entire thread in order to be subjective in this case. That's all! Maina -unedited-
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 6, 2006 9:13:34 GMT 3
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Post by bkichwa on Apr 6, 2006 10:31:01 GMT 3
My dear Kenyans, greetings to you all. Its nice to have a good breakfast every morning whenever possible, and Jukwaa makes my favourite portion every now and again. Job brother, once again may I say thank you soo much for your crisp and apt response you have given above. Your courage says it all and indeed it is soothing to observe such neutrality and honesty of the mind whenever honestly and openly declared. I say keep it up brother, for Kenya such is the only genuine and sustainable hope! maina you dissappoint me my friend on your stance re Uhuru. The grounds you have attempted to offer in here that Uhuru is an ideal candidate through the recognition of his philanthropic status is nothing but a sad and pathetic sham. Otherwise were we to apply similar logic to yours, then perhaps we should also ask ourselves how much akina Pattni and Moi have also contributed in such gestures and then consider how we can elevate the same as representatives of our people! Besides, we cannot simply ignore the real source of his wealth and statr praising him whenever he give an unknown fraction of the same back! Pleaeese! Just take a pause, this is certainly a sickening thought! But you know what brother, don't despair too much in redeeming your goodself of the blunder. Perhaps I should remind you that we are indeed human and all are capable of committing one from time to time. Just relax, take a deep breath and let it go if you may not gather the courage to openly pull out! Ask Oloo, he had been there before, no big deal! On the other hand, another alternative is to dig in and sink deeper by the word! YOU SIMPLY CANNOT SELL UHURU TO US, the way Moi attempted to sell him to Kenyans, your 'good' half hearted declarations aside! Going back to the point of our discourse, I must admit that I genuinely get really sad whenever I log into some online pages and find that people are busy spending loads of hours deliberating on the merits or demerits of the individual leaders vis a vis their potential as Kenya's presidents. It is in fact my strong belief and conviction that not any or a sinlge one of what we have on offer is at all capable of salvaging our beloved nation as some would have liked us to believe. Indeed "corruption tainted" or not, I do not believe that such a tag should be the sole criterion with which we should be using in selecting who the "chosen one" and ideal candidate should be! As a reminder to those who may have forgotten, was it not just the other day when Kenyans were speaking in similar tongues with regard to Kibaki? Were we not repeating with misplaced courage and apparent false confidence that at least Kibaki is one of those who was "never tainted" by the KANU's corruption scandals but only to realise otherwise? Now look, some are even blaming Raila for something that we all in fact shared during his declaration of "Kibaki tosha"! But again I shall attempt to remind you as I always try to, that let us not blind ourselves with our leaders' immediate political travesties and concentrate on the real indications of who and what they really are. Let us have the courage of scrutinising them beyond their groomed faces and try to ask ourselves the right questions as well as have the courage to accept the right and honest answers that may soberly come about them! For example just to sample a few; what is Kalonzo bringing forth which is new that we may begin to base our fresh hopes in his leadership? How long has he been there and what had he been standing for which demonstrates his passion for the people's welfare? How critical had he been all along of the system that was in place, which in fact he was part of and how "uncomfortable" had he appeared to be with it? Did he not remain with the same to the last minute before abandoning it together with Raila but only after obviously failing to get what they had desperately yearned for from Moi? I cannot stop to wonder what would have been the scenario had they not left after Moi giving them what they had desired together with the rest of Ex KANUs<currently ODMs! But that is not all my fellow country beings. DID WE NOT VOTE FOR THE WHOLE REPACKAGED THIEVING LOT by the name of NARC, believing them to be our new hope and salvation, only to wake up to reality and regrets a few months later??!! Was it not far failure of asking ourselves these very same questions and the lack of courage of confronting the real answers that we have taken such a self destructive leap and are about to do the same this time again? Uhuru, Raila, Kalonzo???!! What are they that you do not know of or have never known which should leave you wonderring??!!! I would rather not approve any of them for years to come than submissively do otherwise, simply for the sake of filling in the vacuum and only to be rapped and deceived again! I would rather spend years in failure from elections but eventually become successful in search of true honesty, true integrity and true representation of the people! P.S: 1. Raila was humbly requesting Ngilu to join ODM from the "snakes" just the other day in Kibera, and that is despite the fact that Ngilu had already demosntarted her true potential of betraying the people for her own selfish and corrupt ways in broad daylight which we all witnessed! Of course the Kibarans could only ululate and fiercely clap for their "Agwambo" in his courage of welcoming one of the dishonest cabinets back! 2. Juzi tu similar gesture was extended by Kalonzo to Ngilu and others at Ukambani, and akina Ndolo www.timesnews.co.ke/03apr06/nwsstory/topstry.html were doing the same to Kombo in Kibera in the company of Raila. Question: What is ODM and what do they really stand for? What principles do they bind themselves to which must not be breached? Who should be acceptable for ODM's leadership circle and who should not? Should ODM's membership just be a matter of declaration OR qualification as to committment of certain fundamental and honest ideals? What differentiates ODMs and others in terms of honesty and principles? What are we to choose which is good for ourselves and not simply remain as passive and naive idíots who do not have a clue as to what is happening around us? Why should we appear as if we have been hypnotised by these ever theiving and greedy politicians?Did I say we like to deceive ourselves? My dear brothers and sisters, lets us please have the courage and pray for wisdom that we may not repeat the mistakes of yesterday whilst fully awake! Abdulmote, valid take above. Since you are rubbishing the whole lot of current presidential aspirants, what then are you proposing as an alternative? Who would you like to see Kenyans vote for...who do you envision voting for?
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Post by roughrider on Apr 6, 2006 18:25:56 GMT 3
I think Onyango Oloo’s essay and the subsequent discussions are rather sub-optimal and in many senses focusing on the ephemeral. For example, I find the argument about Musyoka’s American/ rightwing connection that Oloo brought to the discussions poorly developed and rather diversionary. One could easily say the same things for Mr. Odinga who has excellent contacts in the American congress. However, this is in keeping with Oloo’s alarmist tradition for 2006.
The bigger questions, in my view are: How can we institutionalize internal political party democracy in Kenya? How can we improve the clarity of any ideological differences between political parties?
Packaging presidential candidates are a secondary issue to the more fundamental questions regarding the role political parties in our nascent democracy.
Having said the important and to satisfy those who thrive in sensational political punditry, we can sink deeper into the murk and ask a variation of the 21 questions for which we crave no answers:
Did Raila not create Kalonzo as a presidential candidate? Was he serious about this candidature or was he merely setting up Kalonzo as a pace setter? Is Raila himself a serious contender or is he shielding the real candidate? Does Kalonzo Musyoka command the political mobilization skills or financial wherewithal to run a successful presidential campaign? Why did he form the ‘Kalonzo Musyoka foundation’?
What is the real value proposition of Kalonzo Musyoka to ODM? Are Steadman polls a good barometer of Mr. Musyoka’s popularity or are they meant to lull him into a false sense of security? In Luo Nyanza for instance Mr. Musyoka’s rating is very high. When push comes to shove, will he bag those votes against another preferred Raila candidate – say Mr. Mudavadi? Just how much support does Kalonzo have within the LDP itself? Is Mrs. Ngilu being wooed to replace an exiting Kalonzo?
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Post by aeichener on Apr 6, 2006 20:22:10 GMT 3
The bigger questions, in my view are: How can we institutionalize internal political party democracy in Kenya? How can we improve the clarity of any ideological differences between political parties? These questions are indeed the important ones, in my eyes. And not the old Kenyan temptation towards mindless bigmanism. Alexander
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 6, 2006 22:29:37 GMT 3
Roughrider:
Don't you think that your incessant slagging and trashing of yours truly is getting slightly boring by now?
What is "sub-optimal" about my essay?
What is "ephemeral" about the grooming of yet another neo-colonial politician by the imperialists?
When you use words, do you pay any attention at all as to their actual meanings?
What am i trying to "divert" attention from by talking about Kalonzo Musyoka?
Do you have facts to contest Kalonzo's pro-life far right Christian based political pronouncements?
Who was talking about Raila Odinga? Is that not the real red herring you are introducing here?
Finally, stop insulting the intelligence of JUKWAA readers. Why would 1,040 something viewers log in to peruse a "poorly developed" essay?
As for being "alarmist", well I always chuckle when I see that word which is rapidly being denuded of meaning through mindless overuse. Half of the time I am waiting for the Kenyan media to catch up with my "alarmist" projections.
And staying on the "alarmist" tip, one must be truly chicken-hearted to be flustered and shaken by a mere digital essay on the internet.
Onyango Oloo Nairobi, Kenya
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Post by ker7wasswa on Apr 6, 2006 23:44:21 GMT 3
The very fact that the air surrounding the discussions on the LDP nominations for the party’s flag bearer at the 2007 election has been poisoned with controversy coupled with the very public isolation and evisceration of Kalonzo Musyoka behoves the party to hold direct national elections. In respect both of the opinion polls,which have long served LDP and ODM well, and also to maintain the unity of the struggle against Kibaki's regime.
Obviously neither of the proposed selection methods is incorruptible, or not subject to interference by the party's enemies.
However, contrary to popular perception, perpetuated by the force of Raila Odinga’s personality, party delegates are just as likely to be Trojans as are wananchi mashinani,in fact more so. Infiltrators are by definition discreet, and the chances of discretion in a nationwide campaign minimal.
It would be very difficult to have millions of LDP haters across the country say vote for Najib Balala, without it being clear that there was a concerted campaign to interfere with the general will of LDP members. It will be even more difficult to interfere with L D P elections because the only place in the country this would be possible on a large scale is Central Province. In the rest of the country, I do not see non-L D P voters existing in sufficient numbers to tip the vote. It is silly for example, to think that voters in Western Province would be persuaded by Ford-K to vote against Musalia Mudavadi and for Kalonzo. Coupled with the 5 provinces rule, it will be impossible for any candidate to win because of NARC-Kenya interference.
To the delegates’ conference. How exactly would the wananchi mashinani express their choice to these delegates? And who would pick these delegates? How would the horse trading occasioned by the inevitable pull-out at the end of the lightweights be blessed by wananchi mashinani ? This remember is a party in which the Chairman, Secretary General, Chief Whip and De Facto leader have made numerous contradictory statements. Worst, of all will any result out of such a vote be binding?
Flooding the field with candidates shows clearly what are the intentions of the home team,Kalonzo's being the obvious away team.
LDP- and the ODM- has in its hands the opportunity to show all of Kenya once and for all time that it is not a tribal fiefdom but a national party. Long pretenders to the guardianship of the common man, they can now prove to us that they honour democracy, the will of the masses and competition; with their hands as with their lips. The direct nominations country wide will be an opportunity for all LDP members to evaluate their leaders, to ask questions of them, to see what sort of teams they surround themselves with, their organisational skills and for these leaders to promulgate their visions for Kenya. It will be an opportunity for Raila Odinga to shed the Agwambo appellation and prove that he is now a statesman respectful of institutions and attentive to the party around him.
There are many other ways to dispose of Kalonzo. This is not one. Most of all though, LDP must pay keen attention to why Kenyans like Kalonzo so much more than other politicians. The opinion polls after all show that wananchi are not blind to the strengths for example of Raila, or the weaknesses of Kalonzo either.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2006 0:30:46 GMT 3
From: "n`otiya" <nyakwarotiya@...> Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 10:24 am Subject: Re: The PACKAGING of a Kalonzo Presidency
OO,
Your well thought out write out has reminded me of the lead up to the last general election when that time`s outgoing President Moi, told off to his face the heir presumptive George Saitoti that politics was not to be confused with friendship. Apparently, the Professor of Mathematics had thought that true friends should truly never part, and that they should be there at the darkest point of need as a stream of life forever straight to the heart. But I digress.
While the Steadman polls have always upped Kalonzo`s stakes, and while an imminent split in ODM continues to reverberate in the lips of many, I am persuaded that the Orange Democratic Movement goes into the next polls as a united outfit. Recall that the ODM luminaries have themselves downplayed the discord, real or imagined between them.
As for Ruto, Balala and Mudavadi declaring their intentions to run for the presidency, I put it that they are doing so at Raila's behest. The trio are said to be firmly behind the Langata MP.
I also do think Kalonzo`s safest strategy would be to bargain from within ODM and accept any defeat( if he does get defeated in the nominations) gracefuuly. His political star will best shine within ODM. I am pessimistic though of a possible Uhuru-Kalonzo alliance- even as i do appreciate that Uhuru is himself very wary of Raila. I am not unaware though of swirling whispers in Nairobi in months gone by of one Stephen Kalonzo mwana a` Musyoka shopping for a political party of his own.
n'otiya
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 7, 2006 0:36:07 GMT 3
From: julius Kioko <jkkioko5@...> Date: Wed Apr 5, 2006 12:06 pm Subject: Re: [africa-oped] Re: The PACKAGING of a Kalonzo Presidency
Message to Kalonzo:
Get the hell out of the bind Raila has put you in. You can't win the nomination if the process will be through hand-picked delegates who can be manipulated. You can win the nomination if there is a direct vote, in which all Kenyans are free to exercise their choice. Here is my advice: Leave Raila alone. This is politics, and wanaume ni kuonana. You showed your courage in 2002 when you went against Moi. Show some of that courage again now by ditching Raila and taking him on. You have stuck with ODM this far, but it is clear they don't want you now, having benefited from your presence. Build bridges with people who can accept you. You have ready votes in Eastern, Coast, and because Kikuyus are desperate for an acceptable candidate, they will give you their votes if you don't antagonize them by, for instance, asking Kitui people not to buy sukuma wiki from Central because they are purportedly poisoned. Talk to Uhuru, Kimunya, Joseph Nyaga, Kilemi, Maathai, and other Gema moderates - and maintain your contact with the Kalenjin and the Kisiis. Repair relations at home - talk to Katuku, Ngilu and Prof. Kibwana, and don't forget Munyao. As for Raila, remember what our people say:
Kuna Mzaluo!
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Post by aeichener on Apr 7, 2006 0:39:09 GMT 3
Halafu Oloo, (...) That is disrespectful and arrogant! You are free to attack the Christian faith (I have no problem with that at all), but you have no grounds whatsoever of attacking Kalonzo Musyoka's personal belief, faith and its exclusivity! Quite on the contrary: it would be the other way around. Alexander
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Post by maina on Apr 7, 2006 3:55:22 GMT 3
Halafu Oloo, (...) That is disrespectful and arrogant! You are free to attack the Christian faith (I have no problem with that at all), but you have no grounds whatsoever of attacking Kalonzo Musyoka's personal belief, faith and its exclusivity! Quite on the contrary: it would be the other way around. Alexander Alexander, I abhor your ignorant one-liners, and ever since the issue of faith in politics was introduced into Jukwaa, I have noticed a wild and astonishing proclivity where some members are acting as though faith is not personal and not indeed corporal to life in Kenya! But what I find astonishing is your comment saa hii! It is not right and it is not even wrong! Do you know what I'm saying here? If someone tells you that you are right, consider it complimentary. If instead someone tells you that you are wrong, it is not complimentary but at least it acknowledges that something has been said. But if someone tells you that you are not even wrong like I just did, that person is basically telling you that what you said does not even rise to the dignity of an error! That is simply and plainly because you can only say that something is wrong when something has been said. You see in philosophy, there is something called nonsense, and it means: NO SENSE! In my humblest of opinions, that is precisely what your amazing remark here is - NO SENSE! You must countermand your awful habit to express NO SENSE! Now to correct you, when and where did you ever hear that God, in all His sovereignity and power needed you, me, or anyone or anything else to defend Him? In all the years since the gospel began (which is the beginning of the universe according to Christians), has Christianity needed to be protected by any human or thing? If it has, then how come it has survived through the ages and lives through our times in the same format as in the beginning of time? C'mon! We need God to protect us; not the other way around! That is why the Christian faith is all about humility..........a God centred life; unlike the secularist who tries to fit God into his/her life! It is wrong to attack any politican based on his faith, belief and its exclusivity. Attacking his religion or his God is disrespectful, but in the Chrisitan case (as is clearly explicated in the bible), you are free to attack God if you want to. The problem with doing just that is that you begin to lose meaning and reason and you replace God with yourself, just like Nietzsche did! Maina P.S. Consider yourself lucky that I didn't utter anathemas! But don't worry, I am constructing an essay on the implications of the New Age Movement in politics which seeks to alienate faith from politics and contrariwise. Hopefully that will help you from making such reckless mistakes in the future! -unedited-
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Post by mzeiya on Apr 7, 2006 6:24:58 GMT 3
RE: The PACKAGING of a Kalonzo Presidency Posted 1143893349 by Imagine if Bush confessed to being a born again christian.. they'd have dumped him in a flash.
I would like to correct the above statement. George Bush publicly professed his faith in Christ at a public debate during the republican primaries. He has frequently acknowledged the saving grace of Christ in in public and in the privacy of other world leaders. He begins all his cabinet meetings in prayer too. His election and re-election was on the premise of his faith. Cheers, Muriungi
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Apr 13, 2006 16:47:11 GMT 3
Posted by: Observer at mambogani.com:
Fascinating stuff again OO.
Let's face some basic realities. It is a safe bet that all possible candidates for Presidency in 2007 are already in the race. In other words, no-one is credibly arguing that some rank outsider we've never heard of might pop up in the next 18 months and conceivably win. Wangari Maathai is the only possible total longshot in that camp. I'm not sure its a realistic option.
So realistically we're looking at a race between Odinga, Kenyatta, Ruto, Kibaki, Mudavadi and Musyoka. Naturally these will be narrowed down sonmewhat in horsetrading. While there are other candidates, none of them enjoy national support.
I have repeatedly argued that the Banana Orange implications to Kenyan politics are that no single party can win the Presidency or national power. We are now rather like the Italians or Israelis - only coalitions will come to government. This means the style of Kenyan politics - winning Kenyan politics that is - has changed. Thus, the winner is going to be someone who can manage coalitions. In this regard, Kibaki has been as successful as a chocolate teapot.
Of the above, Kibaki is a contender. He has to be a main candidate, and he has the financial muscle to run a tough incumbency race. Kenyans are doubly pissed off with what he has failed to deliver, and even though I know you don't like polling too much, he'll run well in Central Province. Depending on who the other candidate is, it'll either be a Banana / Orange result repeated, or he may temper those results with some calculated alliance building. Still, I'm not persuaded anyone will want to ally with what the nation will perceive as a loser.
This means the field is narrowed to Kenyatta, Ruto, Mudavadi and Musyoka.
Let us rule Kenyatta out of this race. He is not a national candidate as was proved in the last election. Granted, he has performed OK and conceptually in the national interest against corruption, but few Kenyans believe he is not more than a puppet for more sinister interests.
I think we can rule Ruto out on the grounds that he will not enjoy national support in any scenario.
Which leaves Mudavadi and Musyoka and Odinga.
So yes, you are right, it is a question of the ODM leadership, OR a question of the realignment of the 5 main factions in Kenyan politics.
Readers of this board will know that I have long held that he is a future Kenyan president. I bet way back in 2001 that he would be one of Moi's Vice Presidents.
You have picked all the right reasons OO - the Christian image of cleanliness is perfect for what will be an anti-corruption race. The Kamba ethnicity is overdue for leadership and is a viable national choice. He is very well regarded in London and Washington. Not only that but he has very well established Africanist credentials and regional ones at that after his IGAD work. So yes, he is acceptable locally, regionally, Africa-wide and with the donors. He also has very good reconciliation / diplomatic / negotiation skills which will come in handy in the coalition stakes. If he can organise SPLA negotiations and Somali peace talks, he should be able to manage Kenyan politics. He is also popular and well respected. He has in fact come up with some decent policy and can get things done. I say give the man a go. I can see no better candidate right now.
If he changes when he gets to power, well, we the people will fire him.
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Post by pharlap on Apr 14, 2006 5:44:19 GMT 3
Thats a nice read. This observer has certainly seen the light. Good luck and have a nice one KM. Ont eh whole though, i think we tend to ignore other leaders who have openly shown that they can deliver. Here is a good example.. www.eastandard.net/arts.php?topic=159&img_topic=161Local Government minister Hon Musikari Kombo breaks the ground at Chwele Market in Bungoma District to launch a Sh125 million government programme to rehabilitate and construct Malava, Misikhu and Kapsokwony markets in Western Province. Pic by Isaac Wale As far as the many so called deserving politicians go, whom we have made gods of right here on jukwaa, it ha smostly been all talk and no play. Here is one good example of a development conscious politician who really knows what it means to represent his people. If only Kibera and adjacent were to benefit in this manner, we would certainly know what lies at the heart of the leadersn namely the number one charismaniac politicians, Raila and Gumo.
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