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Post by kamalet on May 11, 2006 13:17:04 GMT 3
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Post by aeichener on May 11, 2006 13:39:03 GMT 3
Oh. I hope that won't become a habit... well, at least he is honest and does not pay the police to do the dirty jobs, as otherwise usual with the possessing class.
Prima facie clear self-defence, *if* the relation of HonTom is correct. Might however be a surpassing of the limits of adequate and necessary use of force.
A.
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Post by politicalmaniac on May 11, 2006 21:02:49 GMT 3
But is trespass ( a large farm perhaps far off from the living quarters) a reason for shooting?
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Post by aeichener on May 11, 2006 21:07:40 GMT 3
Definitely not.
And neither would be poaching (contrary to the attitude of KWS who think that it's a free permit for summary execution).
Assault however can be a reason.
Alexander
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Post by mossad on May 12, 2006 0:08:27 GMT 3
There's a swahili song thats used to go like this" Tindi moja, tindi mblili, tindi tatu kazoea."
No this is becoming too much. There should have been a manslaugter charge the first time he killed the maasai game ranger. A minimum sentence of five yrs could have been appropriate and may be deter the current murder from happening.
Mossad.
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Post by pharlap on May 12, 2006 3:29:48 GMT 3
He might just get away with it again this time. This guy probably misses using his numerous guns and whenever he gets a chance, he capitalizes on it. On the other hand, there has been a scare with squatters invading some of this farms and settilung by force. At times, that is the only language they understand. You step there, you get shot.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2006 7:37:36 GMT 3
pharlap
in the Kenya of today he may very well get away with it.
in one breath you speculate about the possiblity that this guy is just plain evil, gets off using his guns to shoot down people.
in the same breath you turn around and speak of squatters who have "invaded farms" in these terms.
"On the other hand there has been a scare with squatters invading some of this farms and settitung by force. At times, this is the only language they understand. You step there you get shot"
Whose side are you on any way Pharlap?
What would you do Pharlap if you were a kenyan squatter? You and I both know how easily it could have been us instead of them, since like me you most likely have most relatives as part of the desparately poor Kenyan massess. Unless of cause you belong to the ruling kenyan elite.
Take it easy on the squatters, the landless, the poor. Save it for when they atually invade those farms in a organised,consistent and unified way.
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Post by dubois on May 12, 2006 10:05:51 GMT 3
This killer Delamare is igniting a spark in an already volatile situation. I think what we should be asking ourselves, is what the government did with the Ndungu report apart from the usual threats of soon confiscating property.
Some of these middle-class children dont have the ability to put themselves in poor people's shoes. Last year, when i traveled back home, i was shocked to see how the situation in slum areas had deteriorated. How do you expect such people to obey the authority of a government that is out of touch and doesnt care. There has to be a day when justice comes one way or another.
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Post by pharlap on May 12, 2006 15:43:01 GMT 3
@kk, i was trying to present a balanced opinion on this case. Surey, for someone who just shot and killed recently and walked scott free....a person who has a clear mind, this is not some homicidal maniac; this is someone who has managed to run successfully the biggest dairy farm in the country for over 16 years....as a financial administrator. Surely he must have known that he is in bad books with the majority of kenyans from last years episode. For him to do this once again, there must have been a good reason for it. If you read about the wave of crime that has hit the country, especiall in cases where organised criminals break into isolated homes in the outskirts of the cities, with mungiki folk pushing as far as they can get away with, especially in nakuru, you can only expect such harsh response when:
1. Some "white" farmer finds a couple of black folk with dogs wandering on his land.
2. He gets attacked and has to defend himself
...of course that is his version of the story. I haven't read much from the deceased..obviously he is dead. We read about cases where thugs get into homes and hold the family hostage for days, torturing helpless people who live in isolation from teh rest of the population.
I have been to Meru and i know for sure that during harvest season, if someone see's you in their avicado plantation, they will get at you with a panga or watever they can get their hands on. Such cases do happen. One time thieve broke into our house in nairobi and believe me, if i had a gun at that moment, i would have utilised it to the fullest extent.
On the other hand, did these guys not know they were trespassing? They were on private property. If they take him to court, he will not be charged for murder. Manslaughter at most. He did not go out with an intent to kill, and if not so, that will have to be proven in court.
Thats true. Theere is so much emotion and the photos that the standard journalists put on their papers just make everything worse. Just seen new lows in journalism standards. Well....These guys were probably poaching. Thieves don't go to steal with dogs. Poaching is a criminal offense. There's two sides to the story, but i have a feeling he might walk away free. We shouldn't be overcome with emotion about such matters.
Squatters....thats a problem all over africa, at least in the sub-saharan region. If we follow Mugabe's methodology, we could run into the worst economic crises, however, the issue of land re-distribution needs to be addressed. We cannot have one family owning 100,000 acres while some folk cannot even afford a shack. The government should focus on developing the other areas to encourage people to move to otehr smaller cities.
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Post by emmo on May 12, 2006 20:03:13 GMT 3
I am glad we are in agreement on this one Alex.
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Post by aeichener on May 23, 2006 10:27:40 GMT 3
We may today learn whether (and if so, how) the Attorney General decides to charge HonTom or not. All those who - very reasonably - now shout for "justice", should also keep in mind that real justice could well mean a decision not to charge, or a charge with a lesser offence (etc. negligent homicide).
The witnesses are pretty much worthless here, be they Carl Tundo or the two companions of the deceased. Both sides are strongly biased, and the latter have already tried to exculpate themselves, alleging to not having seen anything of the shooting, and not being the possessor of the found bow & arrows either.
What is decisive here is the material evidence: on one hand, the question whether the two dogs had indeed attacked Mr. Cholmondeley after having been set on him by Mr. Njoya in order to cover his escape (so that HonTom had shot them in due self-defence, as he alleges). And on the other hand, whether the fatal shot which eventually hit Mr. Njoya, would be proven either to have hit him directly, or to have been deflected from another object (e.g. by passing through the dogs' bodies, or deflected by the ground). The former evidence about the dogs will be rather easy to collect; the second will be more difficult, and Kenya neither has the experts nor the scientific means for such investigation (which condition, as will be remembered, was one of the roots of the whole Anglo Leasing scam).
In my opinion, point two will steer towards a question of where the _burden_ of proof is to be allocated, and in this respect, the state has had a terribly bad record in previous prosecutions (one paper recently alleged that only 5 out of 114 murder cases did lead to a conviction).
Alexander
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Post by ndauosa on May 23, 2006 17:27:13 GMT 3
Hawa wasee wa ache zao,yani mtu ana waibia,ana nyaku, na bado ana guts of killing and pled not guilt. It's not that he even took a second to think of the consequencies, he was sure of the wembe alio utumia the last time he decided to go trouphy shooting for a mzalendo, who's home he is inhabitng without his consent ever. Lakini sheria in chose when and where to start, na bado ana doo, yeye ni investor.
How many people would gain from a simple action let the community run the farm, and alocate 100 ha to the killer, after he serves his term if at all it gets to that level. it is still a favour. Those who work in the farm are locals and know what needs to be done.
Land is always a sensitive issue. what we found ourselves in, ati uhuru was for the genge la wezi "government "to take over from white colonial god fathers to black puppet colonialist.How many of the mwananchi can say that when the colonialist left he got back his land.
I am not a fan of waruingi, he of the Mungiki. But in one of his interviews, he stated clearly that what the struggle wanted to achieve is yet. Land was a core drive to the struggle. And untill when we shall have equal chances to own and use it, then the vita vitaendelea.
We've once again accepted to be bribed by an imaginary valued paper in exchange of struggle.But it won't be long before we realize and open up for another lie.
The world would not do without africa just as africa has never dream of this.Kama sio Doo, huyu korey.. angekua mashakani, kwetu. Mugabe aliuliza and everyone was silent not to be labelled racists,tyrants or whatever English they deem fit to satisfy their intention.
Raundi hi majamaa, tusiwe mazuzu hati wazee wamesema. We have two teachers and students, both in there own special capacities as individuals learning from each other.
Huyu mubeberi, hatumpeleki kokote na hatutamfanya lolote, we can not beat him in his own game. Kenya needs him and does not need this incident to scare away investors.
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Post by wanyee on May 23, 2006 18:20:43 GMT 3
Have the witnesses been quizzed, and their testimony publicized?
Meanwhile:
Widow: I will prove my man wasn't a poacher - Daily Nation, 13th May 2006.
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Post by aeichener on May 23, 2006 18:33:37 GMT 3
Yes.
What Carl Tundo said has not yet been published. Police said that he will not be charged, but can be used as a state's witness.
Two companions of Mr. Njayo have been found out. They do of course try to cover themselves against own criminal charges (very understandably), stating that the found bow & arrows set did not belong to them (indirectly inculpating Njoya) and that they did not witness the shooting.
I am afraid that neither of the three witnesses will help much, since all of them have strong biases and own interests, but we'll see.
A.
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Post by wanyee on May 23, 2006 18:59:53 GMT 3
Thank you aeichener,
Do you have a link to this information?
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Post by aeichener on May 24, 2006 0:51:32 GMT 3
Wanyee, update for you. Look at the Standard: www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=1143952972- insufficient evidence - police desperate and willing to charge Tom regardless with what, regardless how flimsy, just so they can hold him further - AG blaming police for "shoddy investigations" (which is however not the police's fault) - police say they'll pressure and intimidate potential witnesses whose testimony they did not like, until they concoct something inculpating Cholmondeley (may I suggest Nyayo House basement cells?). Appalling. Alexander |
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Post by aeichener on May 24, 2006 16:55:21 GMT 3
The latest news from the Nation website says that Tom Cholmondeley has pleaded not guilty to a "murder" charge in a Nairobi court. The unsustainable charge shows IMHO that the AG is not really serious in prosecuting Tom, and apparently wishes to have the case thrown out by court. As the AG office does so, soooo often in real murder cases, too.
Also quite telling that until yesterday, the AG claimed that police had not enough evidence to hold a charge. As if such evidence would appear now from nowhere within one day. What a travesty of judicial process, apparently to mislead the wananchi. Seems that Murgor was right in his assessment (for once).
Alexander
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Post by aeichener on May 30, 2006 1:51:29 GMT 3
Lynne Muthoni Wanyeki deigned impose herself upon the Cholmondeley case in the current East African weekly: Gunshots and parallel universes (clickable link) Hm. My feelings about her and the article are mixed, positive with negative. She sure tried - but did she achieve? What do you think? Alexander |
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