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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 14, 2006 13:33:57 GMT 3
A Weekend Rant from Onyango OlooYesterday, in the early evening of Saturday May 13th, 2006, I accompanied my younger bro to a joint in the Buxton area near the Nyali Bridge here in Mombasa. The plan was simple: down a few cold  Pilsners (for me) and  Guiness Stouts (for him) while enjoying the Nu Benga tunes emanating from the strings, vocals and percussion of a band fronted by one of the sons of the late, great Kenyan guitar maestro Dr. Collela Mazee. As soon as we arrived, we realized that there was already a change in plans. To warm up for the band, a duo of male comedians dressed in some mitumba women’s dresses was working overtime to elicit a single laugh from an obviously bored and taciturn crowd. Perhaps some of them were extremely sore losers/West Ham supporters stabbed fatally in the heart by  Gerard's 30 metre 90th minute equalizer and  keeper Reina's dramatic three goal save during the British FA Cup post- match penalty shoot out which paved the way for Liverpool’s 7th victorious romp in this overhyped tournament. Or perhaps they were just like me, comedy lovers totally unimpressed by the mediocre stink bombs masquerading as hilarious wit. In my opinion, these two guys need to practice their material a lot more before they rush to a public stage. More than that, their utter lack of originality was made even more galling when they tried to recycle the well-known skits of the  Redyuklass trio and other well-known top notch Kenyan comic acts. And what is up with the ethnic stereotypes peppering every so-called joke? As you can see, my mind was already poisoned when the duo launched what they imagined to be their main mirth grabber. Still, what I heard next left me aghast and apoplectic with seething, barely contained rage. Some context is perhaps useful especially for my readers in Europe, North America, the Middle East, Australia and other African countries and places outside Kenya: Last week, a Kenyan woman, obviously distraught from the ordeal appeared on KTN to recount how a gang of hoodlums broke into their home, locked her husband out and proceeded to take turns gang raping her. She painfully recounted how she offered no resistance because she feared being killed. Now ordinarily, a violent crime like this should not occasion guffaws, tittles and giggles. In order for you to see humour in such a parlous situation, you must be a third rate untalented sexist wannabe Chris Rock of Kenya. Back to the club: Without any warning whatsoever, the unfunny duo decided to "entertain" the crowd by remounting that interview with one of them portraying the rape survivor making much hay of her testimony that she let the rapists have their way with her. The shocking thing for me was that a huge chunk of the audience actually burst out in hearty, approving laughter. At our little table at the back, my brother and I had a completely different reaction. For us, almost simultaneously, this skit brought back memories of how our sister Beatrice had been killed by her abusive husband way back in October 1999. When a waiter came to our table to ask us what we wanted, I told her that I wanted the manager. He was soon there- a quiet, polite and unassuming man in his late thirties or early forties. I protested vigorously at the inappropriate, tacky, insensitive and sexist material the so-called "comedians" were force feeding the audience. He listened attentively before pledging that he would talk to the comic talent to modify their shtick in future performances. About twenty, twenty-five minutes after that, one of the comedians started doing his rounds at the tables asking for donations. We waited patiently until he reached our table. My bro beat me to the punch, being the first to rip into the "comedian". I basically reiterated what I had told the manager. A very chastened comic apologized profusely, explaining that he did not think or intend to cause offence and that they would cut out that skit immediately. He left our table without asking for any tips. His puny and pathetic "self-defence" echoed the statement attributed to the then Principal of St. Kizito Secondary School, who when asked to explain the circumstances under which a bunch of high school boys helped to cause a murderous stampede at the same school leaving several school girls dead blurted out: "The boys meant no harm to the girls. They were just going to rape them, that’s all." Or words to that effect. It has been sobering to see first hand how ABSOLUTELY NEANDERTHAL the majority of us Kenyan MEN are in terms of our attitudes towards women.From our fellow men in parliament like the incomparable Paddy Ahenda with his No Means Yes sexist quip to the "Rape-is-Funny" Mombasa comedians, we have been socialized to view our sisters, our mothers, lovers, neighbours, schoolmates, co-workers of the so called opposite sex with undisguised contempt, condescension and sometimes outright hatred.About two and a half weeks ago- actually on the very day that Chelsea was preparing to demolish Man U Tatu Bila, live on satellite television, precisely at a quarter to three in the afternoon, I heard a male voice on Metro FM reading a letter from a male listener stating that if that listener’s wife had to pass in front of the television when that match was in progress, then she should crawl on all fours to make sure that His Majesty’s line of sight was unobstructed. Now, some may dismiss these misogynist comments from couch potatoes/wannabe jocks as being nothing new or serious to rush to the Internet about. Sorry but I beg to weigh in with a dissenting male view. Whether one is talking about Zuma's comment that it is "Unzulu- like" for a man to fail to satisfy a sexually aroused woman to Paddy Ahenda’s parliamentary inanities to the comedic duds in a Mombasa night spot to the silly sexism of a twentysomething soccer maniac one sees how pervasive is the socio-cultural sexist underpinnings not just of Kenya and Africa but each and every section of the world. The Vietnamese have an ancient traditional saying: " A hundred women are not worth a single testicle".And speaking of the Vietnamese, their world famous revolutionary hero  Ho Chi Minh observed in a 1952 International Women’s Day message that there was more to done to achieve equality than simply taking turns doing the dishes, mopping the floor and changing diapers. He said that this was because male contempt for women had been ingrained into boys and men over thousands of years. In Kenya, we men can testify that this sexist and misogynist socialization practically began even before we were conceived. We all know the pressure Kenyan women are under to produce male children- remember the case in Butere last December where a western Kenyan couple were convinced that if they participated in slaughtering their three lovely daughters, the ancestors/ gods/ etc would bless them with a boy (which ironically happened with the mother delivering a boy infant at the exact moment when her three daughters were being stifled to death). Even though some individual families have done a lot in ensuring that there is no sexist socialization/ division of labour when it comes to house chores, we could heap up a mountain of statistics which prove that girl children are discriminated against compared to boy children. It is needless to recycle data showing that Kenyan women always get the short end of the stick when it comes to almost everything in society. The above realities are the main reasons why bills like Ndung'u's Sexual Offences Bill will face an uphill task being passed into law. It is not simply because they were badly drafted- although this makes it easier for these bills to be rejected. In terms of gender dynamics, Kenya is still a patriarchal, sexist and thoroughly misogynist society. That is why those Kenyans who want to see the eradication of all forms of violence against women must concentrate their energies in ensuring that the struggle for a non-sexist Kenya becomes one of the non-negotiable democratic imperatives for all those who want to be consistent social justice defenders. On a more day to day level, Kenyan men must STOP laughing at sexist jokes which demean not only Kenyan women, but those who find these non- jokes allegedly “funny”. You think you cannot do this my fellow Kenyan brother? Let me ask you a series of simple questions: How many African-Americans laugh at Black Sambo and Niggger jokes? How many Jews laugh at anti-Semitic "jokes"? How many Muslims laugh at "terrorist rag head" jokes? How many disabled people relish jokes about “crippled and dumb deaf mutes”? How many fat people guffaw at relentless and cruel jokes about overweight people? You wanna throw the “politically correct” jibe at me? Go right ahead my brother (and yes, even YOU, my male identified sister). Onyango Oloo
Mombasa, Kenya
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Post by aeichener on May 14, 2006 13:46:59 GMT 3
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2006 18:49:19 GMT 3
Oloo:
my sentiments exactly re socialization and to add to that the way in which men act out misogyny @ the subconscious levels.
Men truly hate women the evidence is in our everyday lives. Men see women in very much the same way that Whites see people of color. This is not a matter of good or bad people. Systems of oppressions are insidious and hegemonic at the personal and systemic levels. Most people are privileged and simultaneously penalized by these systems of oppression. Say for instance a black but wealthy woman. Privileged in terms of class while penalized via gender. The issue for me is if one makes a conscious and political decision to be self reflexive and to listen carefully to those who are penalized in ways they are not. Also very important is to understand the ways in which systems of oppression are interlocked and how they work to consolidate one another. eg the ways in which the marginalization in the domestic and public spheres of women works to prop up the exploitative capitalist economic system.
Today is mothers day. Many men like to think that they love their mothers but oh those other "sexist slures" they are just not like my mama! Men want to love women who put them on a pedestal the way many mothers do. They do not want to love women who interrupt their false sense of superiority.
gots to go because mothering responsibilities beckon.
cheers
kk
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Post by pharlap on May 14, 2006 22:09:16 GMT 3
 I beg to differ.....KK. As a man, i think that many dignified men out there would be offended by this line of thought. I think this is a little extreme and needs re-thinking. Are men to blame for every woman's woes? The truth of the matter is that things have changed greatly over the past few years, yet not one single person has come out to openly recognize that- and it will not happen anytime soon until.....lets not go there. ...  Stay with me. Women all over the word have made huge leaps foward in the past few decades. Feminism has become fashionable, women's rights are on the global agenda, women' s studies are on the rage, women have led campaigns against sexist advertising, for equal pay, against rape and domestic violence and marched for abortion. Women's groups have mushroomed all over, following their major conferences in Beijing, Mexico and Nairobi and there has been great strength and excitement in numbers for women organizations all over the world. But that is still not enough....  - More women are working- since 1980, the growth in women's labor force has been substantially higher than that of men in every region of the world except africa. -More girls are being educated- the gap between boys and girls enrollments has narrowed. In afrika, the number of Illeterate women has fallen by 6.4% in teh last 10 years. -Women are living longer- Average life expectancy in developing countries. 53.7 years in 1970 rose to 62.9 years in 1992. -Women are having fewer children- 50% of women now have access to modern contraceptives. -There are more women in politics- Especially at grassroots levels. In 22 countries, wome represent more than 25% of those in government. -Legislation from international to local is recognizing that women's rights need to be protected. -There are more liberal marriage laws in some countries: in the North the average age of marriage is going up. -Lesbian women in some countries have more rights than they did before- 19 nothern countries now have some legislationr ecognizing same sex marriages. -Female genital cutting has been outlawed in majority of african countries.... The list is endless. However, what we hear all the time is... -Funds that support abortion in any way were withdrawn- used to push for pro-life agendas... -In june 2003, the US congress outlawed a form of late termination in the US... -prohibition of military women serving abroad- WTF? -Elimination of required contraceptive coverage for female federal employees... -Closing of the women's initiatives outreach in 2001- wasn't it time?..... www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8599-2001mar28.htmlsource: The no nonsense guide to women's rights. Nikki van der gaag- Not for sale in canada. I must be missing something here. We seriously need to open our eyes.....
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Post by fanyamambo on May 15, 2006 12:29:23 GMT 3
I know very few men who speak out against misogyny. Although many men claim to hate and oppose it, their silence is deafening.
I am glad you spoke out OO. And I have heard you do so in the past.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 15, 2006 14:57:51 GMT 3
Posted By: donworry
Date Posted: 14/05/2006 at 8:56pm
A disgusting encounter. I am glad that someone gave him a piece of his mind. What annoys is the fact that this poor excuse of a comedian was genuinely shocked by your feedback.
Can you really make humour out of a situation where a woman was gang raped in their own home? And what about those who found it hilarious?
This is surely psycho and I doubt sana whether education on its own can help these sick people
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Posted By: babochka
Date Posted: 15/05/2006 at 2:04am
Perhaps you should send that to a Kenyan daily @oo, so more Kenyans can read it
Might help Kenyan women's long fight against violence.
P/s - Were there women in the audience laughing as well?
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Post by kamalet on May 15, 2006 17:56:58 GMT 3
I was interested in the part you say the rape joke (sick!) did elicit the laughter of the audience despite the annoyance it caused you.
Is it that Kenyans have no respect for such things as long as they do not happen to them or is it that some people like you are overly sensitive to such matters?
It does strike me that it the "activist types" (for lack of a better word) that seem to see such utterances as sexist. I actually do not think the jokes were sexist as Kenyans find a lot of fun in stereotypes. I would hasten to add that I do not think it was a well placed joke at all with reference to that woman's incident.
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 16, 2006 0:05:11 GMT 3
I was interested in the part you say the rape joke (sick!) did elicit the laughter of the audience despite the annoyance it caused you. Is it that Kenyans have no respect for such things as long as they do not happen to them or is it that some people like you are overly sensitive to such matters? It does strike me that it the "activist types" (for lack of a better word) that seem to see such utterances as sexist. I actually do not think the jokes were sexist as Kenyans find a lot of fun in stereotypes. I would hasten to add that I do not think it was a well placed joke at all with reference to that woman's incident. You know, you could be absolutely right Kamale, about it being "activist types for lack of a better word" that seem to see such utterances as sexist. Let us go down memory a little shall we? I am pretty sure, it was the "activist types" during slavery that saw something wrong with the whole arrangement of a master owning other human beings as his personal property; I am pretty sure it was the "activist types" of South Africans who saw something wrong with the pass laws, the inferior education and shoddy townships to help spark the beginning of the end of apartheid; In the first and second decade of the 20th century it was the activist types of Kenyan peasants like Me Katilili who saw something wrong with compulsory taxation and forced labour; In the mid-1970s, it was the activist types of MPs like JM Kariuki, Jean-Marie Seroney, Mark Mwithaga, Chelagat Mutai and others who saw something wrong with Jomo Kenyatta's brutal repression; In the early 1980s it was the activist types of students, religious leaders, professionals and intellectuals who saw something wrong with Moi's dictatorship; One can go on and on. I do not mind being part of a handful of activist types for lack of a better word who find sexist so called "jokes" unfunny and offensive. Onyango Oloo
Nairobi, Kenya |
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Post by pharlap on May 16, 2006 3:06:11 GMT 3
I do feel OO's take on this issue,- women issues have to be respected and treated with utmost importance. I would not condone what they did but stay with me. I have to admit i Kamalet has a point. Remember that time when you loughed when someone joked about a lame person (like in high school- we you to go play a game agaist a school that was far from yours. and there was this lame guy who would use a huge stick to support his walking. On that day, he obviously arrived late for the game and some tweed pipped- "Hey so and so must have walked all the way- his walking stick has become shorter") You did lough, not with bad intentions, it was just a light moment. Remember the guy fell off a bike and lost their front teeth, and you probably still do lough when you see them up to date? Ama the lady who got hit by a motorbike? Ama the day your teacher stepped on a banana peel? You still chuckle when you remember that. Its not any different. I think the intention should be the basis by which we judge anyone. I think this is a bunch of creative artists who were mis-intepreted. These are comedians and as far as they are concerned, they did their job pretty well....the audience loughed. I remember Bill cosby tuning Eddie murphy at "You cannot thssssay Fu*ck on teele....tt.. television" Eddie murphy says he called someone for some advice, and the dude at the other end of the phone was like.." You are a comedian. You are paid to make people lough. Did they lough? Of course they loved it!" Then Fcuk him!!" Harsh, but the guy took his advice. Just saw Bill Cosby ranting about how things have deteriorated and how african americans have lost it. He is going to have to deal with it. Unfortunately that is what we are going to have to deal with. Those comedians were ok. You know what OO, the next time those folks go on stage, they will make a joke out of your concerns, and guess what? More people will rock with loughter. They will be like "Wiki iliyopita...kuna msee na kitambi alikuwa amekaa palee....kisha akaja kutambia ati hakupenda our show...lakini inakaa alukuwa anakunywa pilsne na kitu ingine....hapo kando..." And that is prime fodder for the primitive audience. They will gorge themselves. Bottom line, taking things to the extreme leaves life pretty dull and dry. People will lough at fart jokes for heavens sake... People even make jokes about the dead during the funerals and the crowds lough!!!!! Give me a break!! Those chaps were simply making some dough for the night. We make a joke out of people dying in a plane crash, yet we get angry at a bunch of comedians poking fun of a similarly fatal situation? Are we being honest here? A friend of mine is a gender activist and she literally dragged me to joburg for one of Zuma's sittings. Yaani when he was acquitted of all charges, she almost lost it. She is stil depressed. Can't help them. OO mentions about African americans and black person jokes....lol. They call each other nigga!! You should watch some of their stand up comedies...chris rock disses niggas, and a 98.8% nigga audience packed in the madison square garden rocks with loughter....ama i missed something? I went camping with a bunch of college mates and we had muslims on the team, i remember we had to do abseiling, rock climbing, rafting alongside other tough excercises. I remember the guys making a joke that it was good excercise for jihad.... we cannot just assume that these things don't exist. Stuck up niggas, muslims, jews and the rest don;t lough at stereotypical jokes, and in many cases, they are a small majority. The rest, really don't care. They just don't do it infront of the other races. These two links are not for the faint at heart. The 10th photo on the first link might cause some to be offended, but i post them here so you can see what kenyans are capable of poking fun out of. Literally anything. Ebu look at Saitoti wit his hands up- Okelia Muku!!! Tai Mwathani tai!! www.mashada.com/forums/index/show_topic/24/63838/index.phpwww.mashada.com/forums/index/show_topic/23/10499/index.php |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 16, 2006 11:05:03 GMT 3
"Pharlap":The fact that some African-Americans call themselves nigggers is something to be decried, not celebrated. I am pretty sure you have no problems whatsoever the same guys calling women "b*i*t*c*h*e*s*" and "ho". Please understand me: There is a world of difference between a Black performer poking fun at himself and herself and a White person putting on Blackface to do another rendition of a Coon show. There is a world of difference between a female comedian say Sarah Bernhardt, Whoopi Goldberg or Lea Delaria ripping into her fellow sister and some male clown doing the same thing. Also there is a world of difference when a male comic makes fun of a woman in a way which is not SEXIST or MISOGYNIST and the same comic using humour to promote hatred for and about women. Personally I have no problem with Walter Mong'are and his Redyuklass friends ridiculing Lucy Kibaki after her notorious stampede at the Nation Centre. What I find perplexing is an attempt to sanitize jokes where men stand up in public and encourage hundreds of people to laugh at a woman who has been gang-raped just the previous week. And speaking of jokes and people with disabilities, again, it depends on whether the joke helps to further demean people with disabilities or not. For example there is a Dholuo "joke"- you decide whether it passes the litmus test or not- about this bunch of guys drinking themselves silly using chang'aa as their only poison. Among them is a man who is disabled and cannot walk. Totally sloshed, the crippled man demands to be given a bicycle so that he can dash to Mama so and so for more of the same. The Dholuo punchline to this sketch is: Puth Omer Kwaa (or kwayo) Ndiga.In context and with perfect delivery, it often induces rip roaring laughter even among disabled people. Taken out of context and targeting a so called "crippled person" it can be devastating in its callousness. But let us not veer from the topic at hand which is sexism and how "jokes" are often a conduit for vile anti-women broadsides.  Sarah Jones is a well known African-American activist/ actor/rapper/poet performer who often uses her creativity for anti-sexist and revolutionary pedagogical purposes. A few years ago, totally disgusted by the misogyny and sexism in hip hop culture, she decided it was time to confront the monster head on with her song, Your Revolution which proved to be more than a minor underground hit. It is nowadays used as a teaching tool in universities in North America and around the world. Here are the lyrics: ( dedicated to all the women and men struggling to keep their self- respect in this climate of misogyny, money-worship, and mass production of hip-hop's illegitimate child, "hip-pop", and especially to Gil Scott-Heron, friend, living legend and proto-rapper, who wrote The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, and continues to inspire me.
sarah jones) Your Revolution
your revolution will not happen between these thighs
your revolution will not happen between these thighs
the real revolution
ain't about booty size
the Versaces you buys
or the Lexus you drives
and though we've lost Biggie Smalls
your Notorious revolution
will never allow you to lace no
lyrical douche in my bush
your revolution will not be you
killing me softly with Fugees
your revolution ain't gon' knock me up
without no ring and produce little future MCs
because that revolution will not happen between these thighs
your revolution
will not find me in the
backseat of a Jeep with LL
hard as hell
ya know, doin' it & doin' it & doin' it well
ya know, doin' it & doin' it & doin' it well
your revolution will not be you
smackin' it up, flippin' it, or rubbin' it down
nor will it take you downtown or humpin' around
because that revolution will not happen between these thighs
your revolution will not have me singin'
ain't no black person like the one I got
your revolution will not be you
sending me for no drip drip VD shot
your revolution will not involve me feeling your nature rise
or helping you fantasize
because that revolution will not happen between these thighs
and no, my Jamaican brother, your revolution
will not make you feel boombastic and really fantastic
have you groping in the dark for that rubber wrapped in plastic
you will not be touching your lips to my triple dip of
french vanilla butter pecan chocolate deluxe
or having Akinyele's dream
a six-foot blowjob machine
you wanna subjugate your queen;
think I'ma put it in my mouth
just 'cause you made a few bucks
please brotha please!
your revolution will not be me tossing my weave
making believe I'm some caviar-eating, ghetto mafia clown
or me givin' up my behind just so I can get signed
or maybe have somebody else write my rhymes?
I'm Sarah Jones, not Foxy Brown
your revolution makes me wonder, where could we go
if we could drop the empty pursuit of props and the ego
we'd revolt back to our Roots, use a little Common Sense, on a Quest
to make love De La Soul, no pretense...but
your revolution will not be you flexing your little sex and status
to express what you feel;
your revolution will not happen between these thighs
will not happen between these thighs
will not be you shaking and me faking between these thighs
because the revolution, that's right, I say the real revolution, you
know the real revolution, when it finally comes, it's gon' be real.Now Pharlap: Here are some links to academic use that is being made of this classic anti-sexist song. I hope you will be taking copious notes my fellow cave man: womens-studies.osu.edu/pedagogy/Teaching/musicrevolution.htmwww.cwrl.utexas.edu/~fernheimer/rhe306sp05/archives/000259.htmlOnyango Oloo
Nairobi, Kenya
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Post by kamalet on May 16, 2006 12:46:31 GMT 3
I was interested in the part you say the rape joke (sick!) did elicit the laughter of the audience despite the annoyance it caused you. Is it that Kenyans have no respect for such things as long as they do not happen to them or is it that some people like you are overly sensitive to such matters? It does strike me that it the "activist types" (for lack of a better word) that seem to see such utterances as sexist. I actually do not think the jokes were sexist as Kenyans find a lot of fun in stereotypes. I would hasten to add that I do not think it was a well placed joke at all with reference to that woman's incident. You know, you could be absolutely right Kamale, about it being "activist types for lack of a better word" that seem to see such utterances as sexist. Let us go down memory a little shall we? I am pretty sure, it was the "activist types" during slavery that saw something wrong with the whole arrangement of a master owning other human beings as his personal property; I am pretty sure it was the "activist types" of South Africans who saw something wrong with the pass laws, the inferior education and shoddy townships to help spark the beginning of the end of apartheid; In the first and second decade of the 20th century it was the activist types of Kenyan peasants like Me Katilili who saw something wrong with compulsory taxation and forced labour; In the mid-1970s, it was the activist types of MPs like JM Kariuki, Jean-Marie Seroney, Mark Mwithaga, Chelagat Mutai and others who saw something wrong with Jomo Kenyatta's brutal repression; In the early 1980s it was the activist types of students, religious leaders, professionals and intellectuals who saw something wrong with Moi's dictatorship; One can go on and on. I do not mind being part of a handful of activist types for lack of a better word who find sexist so called "jokes" unfunny and offensive. Onyango Oloo
Nairobi, KenyaOloo, I think you miss my point about the "activists". I think it is the neo-activists who I have a problem with. Those that have a problem with animal testing for research in drugs that could save the human race. Those that have a problem with animals being exported to Thailand to 'die' but are content to watch them die of hunger in the plains due to the drought. My issues Oloo is activism that ignores reality. In the case above, my question is whether stereotyping of men or women for humour purposes can be reduced to sexism or will you call the Redikyulass stereotying of Raila or Moi tribalism because we laugh at the accents of the comedians as well as the antics of the politicians they caricature? I believe acts of sexism that you deride must be those that directly and deliberately are designed to denigrate women...surely nto comic skits! |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 16, 2006 19:23:56 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 16, 2006 19:46:15 GMT 3
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 16, 2006 19:50:15 GMT 3
Hi, My name is Amy. I've been to your site a few times and think it is great. I'm a 14 year old girl from Australia. I am a number one feminist like my mum but I can't stand the sexist things on TV I mean women are treated like sex objects and not human beings. It makes me really angry. My brother is 16 and I hate the things he says about women and the comments he makes. He says that all women are the same and they don't like sports. He always comments on the way women look on TV but never the men. He also laughs at sexist jokes and has half naked pictures of blonde women on his computer. He certainly lives up to the macho male image. In my 14 years of existance I have found that men are extremely sexist and am yet to find one who isn't. The fact is that I hate men everytime I see one I get so angry but my dad isn't very sexist at all. How are we expected to have relationships or marriage with men when they think they're better than us. What can I do? Amy
Thanks for your note to FEMINIST.COM -and I'm so sorry that you don't have nicer men in your life. Before--and especially after--reading your email, I considered myself both lucky, but also normal, for having so many men in my life who seem to be feminists at heart. Most of them were raised by feminist mothers, so they had lots of good influences.
However, as I get older and life's responsiblities take a different turn, I'm beginning to see more sexism set-in. For instance, when friends have babies, it's the women talking about whether she can work and raise her child. And the father says stuff like "my role is just to support the mother"--rather than making himself an equal partner. So, in many instances, sexism does set-in - just a little later.
Maybe in your life, you will see the reverse--as more time passes they will get less sexist. A stumbling block could be that in many instances, people don't even realize that they are being sexist or rude. It takes people like you and I to point it out to them. In other instances, people know exactly what they are doing, but often don't understand how hurtful it is. On these occasions, it's important to try to put them in a situation where they would be laughed at and see how it feels. For instance, a friend once told me that she was meeting her brother, who is gay, at a bar with some of her friends. She asked him if he could "not look so gay." I said to her, the next time you come to my place can you try to not look so Jewish? I think she got the point.
I hope this is incentive to educate the men in your life to be better people and also hopeful encouragement that good men to exist.
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Post by pharlap on May 16, 2006 23:15:12 GMT 3
OO, i read your response and resisted the temptation to respond without giving it a thorough thought. However, i will not go into the song or it's entails but i will reserve my comments for later. I wanted to exhause the issue of the two comedians who engaged in the unmentionable, unthinkable mysogynic act. Allow me to engage your grey matter on thi sissue. Misogyny- the hatred of women. Don't you all find it weird that there are hardly any other semi-scientific words to describe other hatreds? Like the hatred of men? Out of curiosity, i asked a few people and no one seemed to have an answer. Is it because there is nothing to hate about men?......... ;)geez, let me think!! Well,i took this to my good feminist friend and she had it, right on her finger tips. The word, by the way is not even recognised by MS word, probably because it is never used at all. It is Misandry. Ever wondered why you probably heard that word for the first time now? Is it because of the nature of women? That they are generally less hateful towards men than men are towards women? Ooops what am i saying? I almost forgot about footage of bra-burning feminists in combat uniform and army boots marching against riot police! But men are no less hateful than women, so why is there a word for them? If you look back at how teh word came about, you might get some clues. Its Greek, which brings to mind the fact that almost all of the monsters in Greek Mythology were female. Get yourself a copy of Age of mythology and see for yourself , if you have a little time on your hands. And that could have been a reason for this. But wait... there have at least 2,000 years between the greek ruling our world and now. So why do we still have their overtones? Ask any feminist and they will tell you that the reason is because we have been living in a patriachal socety for thousands of years, and so we have adopted the words that characterize a society run by men, that subjugates women. This is like the "lord's prayer" in the sisterhood of feminism. It is like the VMV statement for any organisation. And so the argument goes that We have been speaking a patriachal language in which it is inconcievable for us to speak of hatred towards men, but perfectly acceptable to speak of hatred towards women. --now stay with me--- In my previous post, i laid out compelling evidence that since the women's suffrage movement of the early twentieth century, our society has changed from one steeped in patriachy to one in which women can stand beside men as equals.....lakini our society still uses the same language we spoke when men ruled the earth! ???Feel me? I have to stop there. Otherwise we will be running in circles. This is some advice for men like OO who have genuine good intentions as far as women's rights go. The only way we will be able to address our FEMINISTS needs is by changing literally everything including the language we speak. Because even our language on its own discriminates against gender. You have heard of the his/her argument and about God being a He and problems with that, then you msut have heard of the why is it called "His-Story (History) and not "Her-story" hogwash and women who claim that bras are mens torturous devices, designed to suffocate etc....while men enjoy a good view of the cleavage. If you think you can sort out feminist's grievances, you might as well change and become a woman, or knock down the world and start from scratch. Running the risk of being labelled "Neanderthal man" let me say that i am probably more gender sensitive than many Feminists and She Males and other sympathizers  . I don't condone calling women using terms like "B*iatch, *ho*, B*eyotch, or calling the african americans "Nigga" amd such. I believe that we live in a world that has been largely shaped by natural processes and not a deliberate effort by men to shut down, oppress and supress women. Some societies may have had some really bad practices but generally speaking for the rest of mankind, i don;t think there is a man who goes to sleep dreaming how he will make this world hell for women, unless they have psycho issues. Making everything that makes life what it is into a feminist/rights/sexual harrasment case only demeans the case for the true Feminists, who know what they want and are respected and held in high esteem for their views. But if you get girls who are 5 years to go holding plackards reading "Girls are strong", what ar ethe boys supposed to do other than poke fun? Women need access, equal access like men. Equal access to education, medicine, jobs, income which is taking shape across the be. We cannot undi what has taken centuries to form in a matter of a few *hot *hot* feminist's lifetimes. Secondly, if we were to address all their concerns, it would mean changind our language as we know it, changing religion as we know it literally changing everything. And i can only offer my best wished for the sisters and *brathas* in teh fight. However, remember that zeal without knowledge is like shooting without aiming. By the way, we need to find a word to replace his/her in the "New" language to make sure it is fully de-sexualised. ;D All teh best. Have a nice day tomorrow. Oh and the " Puth Omer Kwaa (or kwayo) Ndiga." that just made my day. Especially after having lived close to a senior university academician who frequented those places a few years back in Nairobi. And his drinking jokes were oftendouble punchliners.  |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 17, 2006 7:57:51 GMT 3
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Post by abdulmote on May 17, 2006 10:31:23 GMT 3
kamale,
I don't you are right in comparing the acts of akina rediculas or the animal rights activists campaigns with the rape script which is the subject of this thread. To fail to see the naked barbarism of the behaviour of all those concerned in Oloo's complaint is in fact to "ignore the actual reality" recklessly so to speak.
Here the difference is that the story told and meant to produce the humour intended, is actually the story about an actual and horrible criminal incident which had actually taken place just a few days behind! It was if as alleged by Oloo, a criminal and hurtful incident which had taken place upon the person of the woman in question, perhaps who is somebody's wife, mother or sister, or indeed even if completely unrelated to anyone in existence, who must have endured the physical pain and mental trauma which entailed such acts of sheer brutality. Ok, she may have decided not to put any resistance against the criminals involved during the act, but that does not mean she had thus consented and perhaps even enjoyed the experience at all!
And so you see, to derive pleasure and be able to laugh on recollection of an incident which is morally wrong, a criminal conduct and could have caused enormous physical and mental harm, upon a specific person such as in the act so narrated, is to show what sort of barbaric and foolishly sexist mentality we Kenyans tend to posses! In fact I can go on to say that had the victim been a close relative of yours, such as say your sister or mother, then may be you would have been in a position to comprehend what has been stated above! I certainly do not think you would approve of the comedy act and go on to have a laugh about it. What a sense of humour!
And pharlap, I think your desperate complains on gender specific words are unwarranted. The thing is, no one that I know of holds the monopoly of words creativity. If that be the case then, how about you coming up with something which describes what you want to describe. That shouldn't be difficult and it should promptly fill in the vacum! Mind you, it doesn't have to be in Greek or Kisomali! Any lingo will do!
And about your his/her thing, I fail to understand what the problem here is. Tell me, what is wrong with knowing that the subject bearer is someone who is male or female? Don't you think that that can be helpful sometimes?
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Post by pharlap on May 17, 2006 10:55:19 GMT 3
www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=14532www.commondreams.org/views01/0107-05.htmWell of course everyone has their version of things. It all depends on who wrote that part of histroy, but given the demans of the feminist movement, some of those claims are not far fetched. Chew on those two for a while. They are nice simple quick reads. The case here OO is not really about some ignorant comedians at a club, its about accomodating each other. Its about realising each others potential and limits. Its about realising that compromise is a must if we are to live together in peace. We should not ignore the plight of opressed women, and at the same time we needn't push for things that are plain ludicrous! I don;t want to speculate about Oprah's gross income cmpared to, say..any Jukwaa male member's. Like one author says, the Zero's will confuse you.
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Post by pharlap on May 17, 2006 11:07:20 GMT 3
I know sarcasm is th e lowest form of wit, but it still it eitherway. Read the article and look at the smileys.  |
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Post by fanyamambo on May 17, 2006 16:02:00 GMT 3
Those comedians need to be put out of work.
Pharlap, feminists are not about 'gender-sensitivity'. This is not the point of the movement.
I know many men who claim to be gender-sensitive. What on earth is gender-sensitivity anyway?
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Post by aeichener on May 17, 2006 16:17:09 GMT 3
I like Abdulmote's posting very much. Thank you for it.
Alexander
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Post by pharlap on May 17, 2006 21:34:48 GMT 3
1. Put them out of work and they will crush your skull next time you are walking home from work for your 500 bob.  2. But they do claim for some sort of sensitivity towards women's needs, especially from the men's side. Do you agree with this remarks? Infact, are you a man? It may help clarify a few things. I love women. God knows i love them ladies! I was prompted to start this debate as a result of these remarks by KK and the subsewquent support she has received from some men/women who seem not so enlightened about the dark side of the so called feminist mvement. While i do respect her stand point and do try to reason in her shoes, i find it totally one sided. This is not a men-versus women war. Its about looking at the root cause of problems that we live with in our societies. One major one is the so called "gender in-equality" where men seem to have the higher hand in literally everything in society. If it is engrained in the mind that men hate women, we run teh risk of having nodiscussion at all because we are on totally different levels of reasoning. There can be no progress when one party adopts a finger pointing position. I believe that until we acknowledge that there exist fundamental differences between the two species and try to understand whe world from each others view, we will always have this mis-understanding. To Illustrate this point, here is a conversation between a couple. A well bred couple who had the opportunity to go abroad, study and learn the ways of the western world, probably still living abroad. The names used are entirely fictional and have been made up for the sake of this script. Omondi: Dude! Why are your bras all over the room? Achieng: Cause I'm fed up with them! I'm not wearing bras anymore.Omondi: So, why? Achieng: They are man made torture devices. All they do is cut off your
circulation, make it difficult to breathe, and squeeze your tits together
so guys can stare at your cleavage! I REFUSE to be encumbered by man's
torturous garments of oppression!Achieng: You know, I've notice anytime you gain some weight and you can't fit into your old clothes, your old clothes become "torturous garments of oppression." Why is that? Achieng: My undies are always oppressing me
Omondi: Yeah. Ok. You just don't want to accept the fact that you are gaining weight. So you redirect your self-loathing onto your clothing. It's quite sad really. Achieng: Nuh-uh. Omondi: Dude, why don't you just buy some new clothes? Achieng: My clothes are fine. I can still fit into them. Omondi: Uh, why are your wearing a thong? Achieng: Its - it’s not a thong? Omondi: Well then, your ass has consumed another pair of underwear! and, frankly, that shirt needs a little help too, Achieng: It's fine. Omondi: DUDE! Your boobs are almost popping out of...You know what? Never mind, I don't care. Every time I try to give advice, no one listens. Well fine. Go about your life blindly with your ass continuously eating your underwear while your tits pop out of your shirt every time you take a breath. God forbid you buy some new clothes that actually fit.
Achieng: But I don't want to wear an extra large.
Omondi: Extra Large? Who are you kidding? Your ass is going for triple XL, my bloated partner. Achieng: Why can't I just stop eating all those really tasty junk
foods?
Omondi: Because they are really tasty. Achieng: Thank you for your brilliant observation.Omondi: Not at all. Here's another observation, your blubbery ass is devouring your chair. Achieng: You know, I don't appreciate your sarcasm. -...end...- A lot of feminists will blame literally evey woman's problems on men or something that can be related to men, like the bra. etc. I think rather than doing that, we should seek to understand what the root cause of the problem is. Otherwise, men just hear "bla bla bla bla bla" when they talk. Thats why we have places like these: To help people communicate. www.women24.com/W24/Display/w24EmailArticle/?PathID=1-2-3-54_9694Secondly, Achieng realises that she is overweight because she eats a lot of junk food, and it tastes good. And that is the root cause of her overweight problem. Obviously, Omondi can see that but she won't stop it because it tastes good. The feminist movement will never admit any progress despite tangible evidence that some giant steps ave been made since the 60's. If they do, there will be nothing more to fight for. Plain as day. The whole movement is stuck in a rut, riding in the last cabin, looking back to the good old days when feminism was the "in thing". I mean the 60's-70's. I have seen scathing attacks on women who write about the family as a perfect social setting for bringing up kids. Why the attacks on family? I could not believe my ears when i saw one feminist go on hammering other women for what they stand. These are the words of Nawal el saadawi, one of the authorities of feminist, a true feminist and a writer, journalist and editor on development issues, has written a number of books, magazines and articles on women and gender. See her here www.google.co.za/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial_s&hl=en&q=Nawal+el+saadawi&meta=&btnG=Google+SearchWith people like her reaching out to literally millions of unsuspecting girls, normal girls who have had a good education, good upbringing, been to college, earning a good salary and just looking for a husband to settle down and get married and have kids, its hard to just sit back and watch. I saw a 5 year girl with a plackard reading, "girls are strong". I doubt she knew what she was doing. I have been thinking, what would make a small child walk in the company of much older women with sucha message. It is a case of concern when older mature hardcore feminists use the influence they have on the young ones in this way. I don't see why anyone should have a problem with the family. You know, the funny thing is that these activists go out there and shout a lot of nonsense, but when they get home, its a different world. Lastly, until we realise that we are interdependent. No man or woman is an island. And by hammering and bashing each other for the other's benefit, it only makes things take longer to happen. if anyone has read the most basic, "men are from mars...." you will realise that the secret lies in communication. We can use the law and otehr measures lakini as long as we don;t communicate as we should, it will always go back to the same spot because nothing was learnt in the first place. I just wish these so called feminists could keep their hands off the family and let the good, men loving women actually do their thing in peace with their men. Ok, hun, come give me a kiss....no,....on the cheek....its beena long essay...sorry to keep you waiting..."love ya to bits".... |
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Post by Onyango Oloo on May 18, 2006 15:50:40 GMT 3
Pharlap:First of all, continue enjoying your membership here at JUKWAA- even though I do recognize you very well from other Kenyan forums. Let me not say anymore. Secondly, your old habit of swiping off content from other sites and recycling it as your own is rather tedious and irritating by now. Take for instance that dialogue between "Achieng" and "Omondi". I wish you had the integrity and honesty to point out that you have modified original material already penned by other people. You know a simple google search reveals the actual source: www.google.co.ke/search?hl=en&q=%22+They+are+man+made+torture+devices.+All+they+do+is+cut+off+your+%22&btnG=Google+SearchThe other thing I wanted to update you on is simple biological scientific information. Women and men are NOT two different "species" as you put it. Instead together they form homo sapiens sapiens. Thirdly make sure you do not cross past the NO SEXISM threshold because you know at JUKWAA we do not tolerate that. Onyango Oloo
Nairobi, Kenya
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Post by fanyamambo on May 18, 2006 19:06:03 GMT 3
Pharlap, you are simply ridiculous. The fact that you use that unoriginal mock conversation to illustrate a point (whatever it is) makes it difficult to engage you in dialogue. In fact I would rather have my skull crushed.
You certainly are 'gender-sensitive'.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2006 19:41:25 GMT 3
hey Pharlap,
so funny how you are going out of your way to demonstrate that feminists are a bunch of folks who complain for nothing. When you look around the world especially in the neocolonized world you see great progress for women do you now?
Like fanyamambo, I'd rather engage with people who are either genuninly ignorant of the reality, but open to listen to those whoes lived experince is being discussed. But, I'm not interested in engaging those who are from the dominant group in question and who arrogantly ignorant! I'll save my energy for struggles to make changes in the world that will help bring about equality between women and men.
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. I don't condone calling women using terms like "B*iatch, *ho*, B*eyotch, or calling the african americans "Nigga" amd such. I believe that we live in a world that has been largely shaped by natural processes and not a deliberate effort by men to shut down, oppress and supress women. Some societies may have had some really bad practices but generally speaking for the rest of mankind, i don;t think there is a man who goes to sleep dreaming how he will make this world hell for women, unless they have psycho issues. Making everything that makes life what it is into a feminist/rights/sexual harrasment case only demeans the case for the true Feminists, who know what they want and are respected and held in high esteem for their views. But if you get girls who are 5 years to go holding plackards reading "Girls are strong", what ar ethe boys supposed to do other than poke fun? 
