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Post by pkibathi on May 29, 2006 5:55:36 GMT 3
Though this is my maiden contribution to this forum, i would like to point out that i have been following keenly comments on this forum, especially regarding Kenyan politics. I have not been surprised to detect tribal undertones in a good percentage of the contibutions. And this is the sad reality of Kenyan politics.
On Uhuru's bolting from the ODM, fact is, he was heeding Moi's instructions and not acting out of a sudden dose of courage spoon fed to him by Justin Muturi.It is my opinion that Moi's orders were based on suspicion of the intent of LDP (read Raila) and contempt of the other ODM so called heavy weights. These are former cheerleaders in Moi's political heydays.
Let me explain myself a little bit more on reasons behind Moi's quit ODM order to Uhuru
Reason 1- suspicion of the intent of LDP (read Raila)
Moi knows that the LDP leader is one person who caused him the most misery in his more than 40 years in politics. Were it not for Raila, it would have been hard to imagine Saitoti, Kalonzo and Balala standing up to Moi. And so , for Moi, Raila is uncharted territory, and worse of all, a populist. And Moi having been a populist in the swinging eighties knows only too weel what a populist would do to please the masses once in power.
Reason 2- Contempt for the other leaders First by other leaders, i mean Kalonzo, Ruto , Balala and Co. These are people who used to sing praises to him in Kanu in return for real or implied political patronage.To Moi these people were kids , are still kids and will always remain so. The same way parents at times find it hard to accept when our kids can make unexpected bold statements either by intent or action. Moi is one person who , up to today, has never believed there is any one better than him to read and interpret Kenya's political landscape. And that's why Moi has hit hard at the "young man" Ruto for declaring he would contest the Presidency (read, was sending a mesage to Moi that he was man enough in the Kalenjin household) . Infact, it is my considered opinion that Moi has always been contemptous of Kibaki (Only that he had no choice in 2002, and he has not been surprised under Kibaki's lack of spin and his regime of blunder's and gaffes )
This therefore tells me that the Man behind the so-called turmoil in Kanu is Moi, and Uhuru is just a front By this Moi intends to achieve two objectives (1) Ensure that Raila does not become the beneficiary of the Kalenjin votes which one William Ruto is threatening to sell to the highest bidder; (2) Re-establish the long held view that he was the master of the game, and this can only be achieved with the humbling of William Ruto. And Moi has done this by taking a position that conflict's with Bill's road map to political relevance in Kenya. This gives Bill two alternatives ;either give in or get into direct conflict with MOi, upon which Moi has (or thinks he has) ways of dealing with him, as he did in the nineties when Ruto, Kirwa and Jirongo were washing the Kanu family's linen in Public.
Question is , (a) Does William Ruto has spine to face Mzee in the ultimate showdown. If not will he be prodded on by Raila just like Saitoti and Kalonzo did some years back. (b) If he (Ruto) prevails, does he has any plans on how to move on or will he continue revelling in the "its our timeto eat " chants from the likes of Musa Sirma (c) Can Raila win a presidential general election in Kenya, given that he has stepped on so many toes . Moi's toe was the first to get sore, and there could be other toes getting sore. (d) Kenya is on record that it is a Multi party democracy but do we have the ingredients of a good multiparty democracy ie a ruling party and an effective opposition party. Or is all this so called democracy just a struggle for power by leaders while we the masses cheer them on using the language they have taught us, raw and shame less tribalism.
P. Kibathi
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Post by dubois on May 29, 2006 10:56:23 GMT 3
@ Job, you can use all the big words about 'Kenyans', 'the people's movement' etcetera but in my opinion; ODM is a Raila led outfit in a desperate quest for power. Don't get me wrong, Raila like anyone else has the right to seek power. However it is hypocritical for you to come here and shamelessly point a finger at the tribal chauvinists without acknowledging your own bias. Furthermore the only reason you mention tribalism is because some people don't share your nationalistic vision of ODM.
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Post by aeichener on May 29, 2006 14:07:20 GMT 3
ODM was a mere union of purpose, of vastly disparate elements. I doubt that it could *ever* grow into a party, as nice as that dream of a people's front could be...
Alexander
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Post by abdulmote on May 29, 2006 16:13:20 GMT 3
What is happening here is very sad indeed. For days and months on end, eveytime I log into a Kenyan political forum, all I can read is a 'heated' debate and the so called 'political analysis' of our Kenyan politicians. Everyone seems so keen on demonstrating their 'punditness' in telling the future of our 'beloved' leaders. Almost all the posters I have come across appear keen on showing their writting, analysing, and forecasting skills of who is doing what and why, and who will do what and when, besides who should do what and how.
But one thing all these posters have in common is that they seem not to realise that they themselves have been immersed deeply in the political game they seem so gripped about. For some reasons, people find themselves seriously engaged in figuring out akina ruto's, uhuru's and raila's moves to name a few, as if that is the only thing worthy of everyone's attention at the moment and that is all that matters. We have got akina gichohis and kamales on one side, stubbornly pitching their tents for the Gikuyus, and we have akina roughriders and others telling us that ODM is our only way out!
But what makes me sad more than anything is the fact that alarmingly up until now, we appear not to have realised that all those power seekers in the current format are there simply for themselves and nothing else. From kenyatta, to moi, and then kibaki, kenyans have conclusivey seen their capacity for greed, selfishnes and destruction upon our innocent nation. Next in line we have aina raila, uhuru, kalonzo, ruto narc-kenya and what have you, all readying themselves for the take-over bid and so secure their chance to 'eat', as if they have been starving all along in their lives!
Fact is all what we have at the moment are clearly the type of people who are readying themselves for their 'turn' to eat, thereby ruthlessly repeating upon us what others have similarly done before them! Fact is kenyans appear to have a disease of the mind, which afflicts those who ascend to power, with the capacity of almost instantly changing our 'sainthood' into greedy 'evilness', the minute they get voted in. This indeed is what concerns me most and so should you!
Please tell me that we have measures in place that will specifically cut off the vicious circle of self-destruction as is being practised. Please tell me that someone is presenting kenyans with a different focus, that we may be able to reverse all the loses made so far. Please tell me that we have a fool-proof system in place, that will ensure kenyans are never taken for a ride once again as has happened so many times before.
But parhaps the time is not ready yet, to discuss what ought to be discussed as a matter of priority and objectively so if at all.
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Post by aeichener on May 29, 2006 16:36:18 GMT 3
Well said, Abdulmote.
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Post by roughrider on May 29, 2006 17:27:10 GMT 3
Question is , (a) Does William Ruto has spine to face Mzee in the ultimate showdown. If not will he be prodded on by Raila just like Saitoti and Kalonzo did some years back. Now this is food for thought. P Kibathi, every FIRST post deserves a lengthy response, so here goes: History is clear. We do not need to write it, for it speaks for itself. William Ruto has always rebelled against Moi…twice in public record. It is Moi that wooed him back; it is Moi who needs him…. But Kenya is operating in the context of a World that is slowly changing: people’s power is reviving itself in Latin America with the rise of socialist regimes. In Europe, take France for example, the restlessness with strikes by youth should tell you that the citizenry is reasserting itself. This is the global context in which you must place Kenya’s politics; the elite will loose power to an increasingly restless poor and youthful majority – in other words the constituency that Ruto holds is too hot for Moi to handle. This global factors must not be ignored. Notice for example that Gideon Moi and Alfred Getonga have travel bans on them. The press is selling a lie. That Moi is infallible. That ‘Mzee’ has a network of elites and that he therefore controls the Kalenjin vote. This is ridiculous to say the least. We should know that it is the people who can appeal to the poor, the women and the youth who will carry the day; and so far Ruto is ‘humiliating’ mzee in that. In addition, arap Moi burnt a lot of political capital among the Kalenjin, when without any logical reason, he insisted that they support Uhuru project. In fact a look at the votes in 2002 will reveal surprisingly good results for the Rainbow group at that time. The reaction of the Kalenjin to Uhuru in 2002 was a harbinger of things to come. While they voted for him 'out of respect for Moi' then, in 2002 they may want to make their true wishes known. (b) If he (Ruto) prevails, does he has any plans on how to move on or will he continue revelling in the "its our timeto eat " chants from the likes of Musa Sirma My belief is that Ruto is going all the way, if NOT in 2007, he will be unbeatable in 2012. Moi on the other hand does not have the luxury of time to put his house in order. It is certainly stretching things a bit too far to see Moi’s hand in Kalenjin politics in the next 5 years. This means that whatever the dynamics today, kalenjin politicians who align themselves to Moi are thinking only about today; Ruto is the best bet for the future. (c) Can Raila win a presidential general election in Kenya, given that he has stepped on so many toes . Moi's toe was the first to get sore, and there could be other toes getting sore. Raila can win. The only thing that will prevent him from winning is if tribal machinations are allowed to cloud good judgement. In reality he is a very effective, proactive leader who in my view can begin the social transformatiuon we need. The fact that people like Moi or Kibaki fear him -should for soberliness and heavens sake be read as a good quality. It means that he may be in aposition to effect the changes we yearn and put the status quo at peril. The stepping on toes line is a fallacy. First I think it can be argued that it is Moi and others who have stepped on Raila’s toe. 2002 was a reaction to Moi’s unfair advantage to Uhuru. After 2003 there was a reaction to a breach of trust: in both cases – Moi and Kibaki were merely paying the price for their own follies. Secondly, it is people who vote – the ordinary folk. While Moi et al. sometimes, in fact, often try to sway public opinion; these can be countered politically. Raila is a smart politician; believe me these factors have been weighed in carefully. Moi, Kibaki may take positions simply and purely to get back at Raila but we should not assume that the other players cannot plan and scheme. Incidentally, in recent times, it is only Moi and Raila who have executed successful political schemes spanning over years. (d) Kenya is on record that it is a Multi party democracy but do we have the ingredients of a good multiparty democracy ie a ruling party and an effective opposition party. Or is all this so called democracy just a struggle for power by leaders while we the masses cheer them on using the language they have taught us, raw and shame less tribalism. P. Kibathi At the moment our multi-partyism is based on ethnicity and personality. This is true. But it also means that in making political progress we must openly and deliberately deal with the specter of ethnic politics… in fact this is partially what we sought to cure through devolution. This is also why coalitions such as ODM and Rainbow before it appeal to many Kenyans: they create a mosaic that is national and therefore vote-worthy. Having said that, we need to recall that while our multi-partyism is sickly, our pluralism is alive and kicking. In media, civil society and other places there are vibrant debates that are a clear testimony to the fact that Kenyans are a very pluralistic country. Pluralism is a bigger concept than multi-partyism. With these words, I welcome you to Jukwaa.
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Post by aeichener on May 29, 2006 17:55:07 GMT 3
Can we talk issues instead of persons ? *Sigh*
Abdulmote was so right...
Alexander
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emmo
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Post by emmo on May 29, 2006 19:49:31 GMT 3
Actually Alex, in our little experiment of a nation, the 'persons' are the issues.
RoughRider, Asante, for the first time on the whole of the internet, I meet someone who is not willing to insult Kalejins by thinking they are beholden to Moi. Thank you also for confessing that Railla was not on a mission to wreck K A N U from within, the drivel we are tired of hearing from his supporters.
Thank you finally for pointing out the elephant in the room. William Ruto has never kow-towed to Moi. And neither is he likely to suck-up to Railla.
Ah, but there ends the back-slapping. I am not sure what political scheme it is Railla has executed successfully. Edify me. Tell me also why good judgement would mean I give my vote to Railla. In a Manichaean world how is it that things arranged so Railla and Kibaki find themselves on different sides.
Has Railla not since the first days of cooperation excelled, simply excelled at abusing public office?
Maina I have never understood how an intelligent man, regardless of his political persuasion can support Uhuru. Also why is it you like to accuse people of being, emotional?
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Post by roughrider on May 30, 2006 10:38:21 GMT 3
Emmo;
A careful study of Raila Odinga’s political history should bear him out. Ten years in detention for daring to challenge one party dictatorship and subsequent lengthy experience in opposition and dalliance within government tell us a story.
When Raila came out of government he said it was a lesson in ‘how not to do things’.
Another important quality of Raila that we need to recognize is his ability to make friends – at home and abroad. The press rendition of him is a creation of many years of distortion by Moi and NSIS propagandists; close contact reveals a different man – quiet, calm, focused, intelligent, articulate. The other important attribute is that he listens; patiently and carefully. I like that in a leader.
One of the first things I believe a Raila presidency will do is to place Kenya at its rightful place in the World stage.
Emmo, take your time to understand this man and you will see what I see.
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Post by aeichener on May 30, 2006 14:51:11 GMT 3
A careful study of Raila Odinga’s political history should bear him out. Ten years in detention for daring to challenge one party dictatorship and subsequent lengthy experience in opposition and dalliance within government tell us a story. Dat ain't tellin any story. Just look at Koigi the Crook. Alexander
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Post by maina on May 31, 2006 2:26:05 GMT 3
Emmo, Firstly, habari?
Secondly, you have taken a philosophical deportment through your question to me (as quoted above), and I will deal with it in a moment. However, I continue to be excellently bemused by all the rhetoric and emotions the likes of Roughrider, Job, et. al are humourlessly exhibiting in their purpose to boost one Raila Odinga as a practical president.
Now to answer you question, I’ll begin by quoting the famous French sociologist Jacques Ellul, (he specialized in Technology). In his book The Technological Society, he particularized that our ability as human beings to perceive "is a process wherein there has been a humiliation of the word". In other words, the exaltation is in images; the humiliation has taken place in the written process. When that happens, it singularly because emotions are at play!
The average teenager today spends about 10,000 – 18,000 hours on technology-aided-perception (the figure of course varies depending on what part of the world you are, but the range is exclusive), and only an average of 11,000 hours are spent in class by the time the teenager is 18 years of age. Categorically, there is no doubt that the ability for abstract reasoning is diminishing in our time! Emmo, you see when you start to argue with somebody and begin the argument with a minor premise, then proceed to a major premise, then build a syllogism, and then resultantly enter a deduction, the average Raila Odinga wooer loses you halfway through the argument because s/he has come to his/her conclusion of Raila’s character and personality through images prior to that! I will explain further.
Firstly, Raila assaults his boosters intellectually principally because he speaks their language and tells them of the beauteous things that he can bring to Kenya. Secondly, he assaults them volitionally when he appeals to their (his exponents) wills, through his yawping in the media/rallies, and by castigating other politicians! Lastly and most importantly, Raila assaults their imagination by assuring them that he has "learnt" through the years "not do the bad things"; not forgetting how he reminds these wooers how much time he spent prison. Isn’t the consummation of his doing all this, the noisome Railaphobia and its mania? Do you see how awful an impact emotions have in politics? Also, do you know who else attempted these same assaults and in that very order? One Karl Marx!
Now to counterdrift that, one of my admired teachers and exemplars, Ravi Zacharias, in a weekly prayer meeting while discussing images and illusions in society two weeks ago said this, "............when cupidity and self-aggrandizement is the motive, unity is catastrophic." What an exemplary analysis of the mesmerized and fink Raila, his phobia and its mania!
Then there are those wooers like Roughrider who say that Raila is, "..........different man – quiet, calm, focused, intelligent, articulate. The other important attribute is that he listens; patiently and carefully......." as if those qualities are not inveterate in other leaders (Ruto, Mudavadi, Uhuru for instance)! But more interesting is that he (Roughrider) boldly and recklessly acknowledges that he "likes that in that a leader". Do you see the amazing rhetoric?
Anyhow, in conclusion, if democracy forshadows pluralism and is accordingly implied to mean relativism of ethics and by that virtue also signifying that everyone’s opinion in society matters because everyone is entitled to their opinion, it presents a serious philosophical and social problem. Actually, in philosophy it is referred to as chaos! Most importantly though, if a person’s attitudes, dreams, preconceptions and preconditions are shaped by images instead of such other mediums as the home, school, beliefs, experiential relevance, et cetera, that person becomes an intellectual atheist and becomes completely lost. Remember, truth has it absolutes because it is exclusive by definition! That, my friend is reality!
Maina
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Post by abdulmote on May 31, 2006 10:30:13 GMT 3
FRankly speaking, I have had enough, and I repeat, ENOUGH! of debating about who will make a better leader for us Kenyans. No one can ever convince me yet, even for double my lifetime, that Kenyans have found what they are looking for amongst the crop of leaders we have on display. And with this I mean the lot! Yes, from Raila, to Kalonzo, Uhuru, and forget about Kibaki, all these are mere conmen in disguise! In fact I even hate to use the term 'disguise' because it ain't! They are simply and plainly a bunch of conmen in the open, and I should not even bother to explain if you have not realised that yet.
Amazingly, many forumers in here have been actively engaged in some verocious debates on our Kenyan politics for over the last TWO years! And all this time, surprisingly so to speak, we have been almost solely concerned with "who should be the next president" and amost failed to notice and appreciate the weakness which persistently exposes us to the ever existing cancer. In the process of these debates, we have indeed also explored and criticised extensively and intesively on the corruption levels and abuses of powers as demonstrated by our politicans. And with the same zeal we must observe, many have clearly displayed extreme bias on our subject contents and our analysis have ended up being a reflection of intensely distorted thinking which bore nor direction, neither reflection of the effort needed towards finding suitable and sustainable solutions to our miseries. In reality if you come to think of it, our participation in these fora has been mainly to use it as a tool which incidentally it appears, the purpose is only to satisfy our own premature egos through what we can freely publish for everyone to read!
But I can understand.
Rather than strive to become the source of Kenya's solution, our typical selfishness, shortsightedness, and ubiquitous corrupt nature, appears to have commonly and immensely influenced our judgements. In other words, we have simply and sadly become part of the problem! We have indeed denied ourselves an opportunity to make that vital difference, depsite such a potential as can be imagined the internet has provided us!
And this remains to be the problem.
You see, ladies and gentlemen, in all honesty, Kenya does not at all lack members of society who are indeed very capable of providing our beloved nation with very good if not excellent qualities of leadership, at least on the outside. By looking objectively upon the people and personalities available within all our ethnic groupings, it may appear that there are plenty who seemingly display some signs of good and genuine desire of bringing about changes that may be intended for the better of our nation. But in the process of admiring and 'advertising' their potential, I am also of the opinion that we tend not to look beyond and behind what had actually necessitated this desperate search for a 'better alternative'. Persistently we have only deeply immersed ourselves on the issue of promoting 'our' offer of alternatives, without asking ourselves that critical question; what had actually happened BEFORE we found ourselves in this situation? Our point of focus seems to be completely fixed only upon the urge of becoming 'one of the influences' for a particular selfish outcome, reasons of which can be many but sometimes unexplainable or simply irrational! Much as we would like to believe in our choices of actions and their merits, we strive hard to shut our minds completely out of the actual causes of our calamities and repeatedly fail to address the problem confronting us time and again!
And so here we are more than two years on and the problem has hardly been identified, let alone the solution be found.
Fact is there are many who had come before us and appeared to sincerely offer the people hope of good governance and desirable changes. In doing that, they were able to articulate their 'vision', with utmost zeal and unhindered enthusiasm never witnessed before. And the public inevitably recieved them with hope, joy, and never-experienced expectations. They went on to shower them with fragranced bouquets and sang and danced to rythms and sounds which only predicted a brilliant and positive outcome just about everybody would have ever wished for!
And then the results.
But here we are now again. I cannot help but tremble at the thought that we may not have enough courage and honesty within our souls in order to confront this everlasting devil. I am certainly appalled at the number of times I have tried to mention this fundamental problem of ours, and repeatedly, almost everyone has shied away from offering any appropriate response leave alone suggest a solution! In fact I am now inclined to think that Kenyans are parhaps more corrupt as a society than any one can dare imagine and it is our preferencial situation to remain in! Every time one talks of the need for accountability and transparency, one gets a resounding silence as if wishing 'those scary' comments away. Why? I ask.
What is indeed important is that we have to refresh our mental facaulties with some obejctivity and honesty, and try again and again until we can address appropriately, meticulously and specifically, the core of the cancer that is repeatedly eating and wasting us away. In doing this, we must not tire to confront our own weaknesses and should remind ourselves of the same again and again.
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Post by maina on May 31, 2006 13:13:21 GMT 3
Abdulmote, Those are captivating and perspicacious sentiments.
But seriously why the rhetoric though? Why don't you kindly tell me who you envision as a suitable and practical president for Kenya in 2007?
Or rather, are you seriously intimating that Kenyans should not go to elections next year until we wait for Kibaki to give us a new constitution - one that works? Or might you also professing that Kenyans should not be electioneering and categorically and prudently participating in the prestidigitation and smear campaigns associated with elections? Isn't this the case everywhere else in the world?
I think we need to forget about a new constitution for now. Kibaki must first go in order for Kenya to decorously develop! TQuite frankly there are no two ways about it! Actually, if you disagree, please (and compassionatly I mean this) advise me how we should go about things. Just point at it!
Kibaki must surely go! In so doing, Kenyans must prepare for elections. That is the only way a democratic society embodies change, because change is necessary in Kenya; not now - yesterday!
Maina
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Post by aeichener on May 31, 2006 13:20:04 GMT 3
Bigmanism still running rampant. Some people are just willfully blind - they do not WANT to understand what Abdulmote so aptly and so fervently explained.
Alexander
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Post by roughrider on May 31, 2006 14:42:42 GMT 3
Abdulmote,
I respectfully disagree with many of your assertions.
There is nothing wrong with discussing ‘the next president’, his shape and color, especially in Kenya where nothing substantial can happen until a president decrees. Bigmanism may be a problem, discussing presidential candidates is not.
I challenge you to open a thread titled ‘why we should post here’ outlining your constructive agenda for debate on Jukwaa and we shall engage you.
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Post by kamalet on May 31, 2006 16:08:15 GMT 3
What is happening here is very sad indeed. For days and months on end, eveytime I log into a Kenyan political forum, all I can read is a 'heated' debate and the so called 'political analysis' of our Kenyan politicians. Everyone seems so keen on demonstrating their 'punditness' in telling the future of our 'beloved' leaders. Almost all the posters I have come across appear keen on showing their writting, analysing, and forecasting skills of who is doing what and why, and who will do what and when, besides who should do what and how. But one thing all these posters have in common is that they seem not to realise that they themselves have been immersed deeply in the political game they seem so gripped about. For some reasons, people find themselves seriously engaged in figuring out akina ruto's, uhuru's and raila's moves to name a few, as if that is the only thing worthy of everyone's attention at the moment and that is all that matters. We have got akina gichohis and kamales on one side, stubbornly pitching their tents for the Gikuyus, and we have akina roughriders and others telling us that ODM is our only way out! But what makes me sad more than anything is the fact that alarmingly up until now, we appear not to have realised that all those power seekers in the current format are there simply for themselves and nothing else. From kenyatta, to moi, and then kibaki, kenyans have conclusivey seen their capacity for greed, selfishnes and destruction upon our innocent nation. Next in line we have aina raila, uhuru, kalonzo, ruto narc-kenya and what have you, all readying themselves for the take-over bid and so secure their chance to 'eat', as if they have been starving all along in their lives! Fact is all what we have at the moment are clearly the type of people who are readying themselves for their 'turn' to eat, thereby ruthlessly repeating upon us what others have similarly done before them! Fact is kenyans appear to have a disease of the mind, which afflicts those who ascend to power, with the capacity of almost instantly changing our 'sainthood' into greedy 'evilness', the minute they get voted in. This indeed is what concerns me most and so should you! Please tell me that we have measures in place that will specifically cut off the vicious circle of self-destruction as is being practised. Please tell me that someone is presenting kenyans with a different focus, that we may be able to reverse all the loses made so far. Please tell me that we have a fool-proof system in place, that will ensure kenyans are never taken for a ride once again as has happened so many times before. But parhaps the time is not ready yet, to discuss what ought to be discussed as a matter of priority and objectively so if at all. Abdulmote, I think you are being patronising here. Personally I like the passion with which people discuss politics in this forum and it is presumptuous of you to tell off people that post here. It is even worse when you see Gichohi and Kamale moving the gikuyu agenda whilst the rest move "an ODM agenda". In short you are accusing Gichohi and I of being tribalists!! Or is the "ODM agenda" nationalistic hence holier than what all others post? Sadly, that is where you go wrong! I do not think people like RR or Job support ODM simply because it is led by Raila (whom they share a mother tongue), but because they are able to align themselves to what they believe ODM means to them. For those of us (like Gichohi and I) who do not believe in ODM do grant us some space, and perhaps associate us with Mungatana who does not agree with ODM either....or is the drift too difficult to catch? Eeiiiish!
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Post by kamalet on May 31, 2006 16:35:53 GMT 3
Abdulmote, I respectfully disagree with many of your assertions. There is nothing wrong with discussing ‘the next president’, his shape and color, especially in Kenya where nothing substantial can happen until a president decrees. Bigmanism may be a problem, discussing presidential candidates is not. I challenge you to open a thread titled ‘why we should post here’ outlining your constructive agenda for debate on Jukwaa and we shall engage you. I will have to agree with RR here. How would it be possible to discuss politics and not have human beings as part and parcel of that discussion? Abdulmote would rather we do not discuss politicians but just politics, and I am sure that would be silly! Every play has actors and that includes politics. What Abdulmote should do is introduce a thread on POLITICAL SOLUTIONS FOR KENYA and in the post ensure that he does not include human beings as part of the solution, then see if it would be readable. Sadly he fails to recognise that even if we replaced Raila with Tony Gachoka or Uhuru with Dan Amayo, it is just names and nothing else. Let us please happily discuss Raila, Moi Uhuru, Kibaki et al., therein we shall find strengths and weaknesses of our leaders and should our names replace theirs, then we will have learnt our lessons!
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Post by tambo on May 31, 2006 16:48:58 GMT 3
Wonderful if the majority have a desire for the best possible intellectual solution.
Impossible if the majority have a desire for the best possible cultural 'solution'.
Which one do you think will win?
I'd say intellectual. They're aren't many intellectual divides.
You haven't included popularity though.... Raila,Kalonzo,Uhuru,Kibaki et... Are fruits of the same tree. Not very different from what is happening in S.A, who will take over from Mbeki.
-------------------- "Listen, everyone is entitled to my opinion"
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Post by aeichener on May 31, 2006 17:36:33 GMT 3
Abdulmote would rather we do not discuss politicians but just politics, Exactly. I don't care much who the next goon at the top is. It could be Gideon Moi, it could the 5th Earl of Delamere, it could be Raíla Odinga, it could be an old illiterate Ogiot woman. I care for the politics that he or she makes. Alexander
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Post by politicalmaniac on Jun 1, 2006 4:56:03 GMT 3
Let the dust settle, just let it settle.
Kickback1 thought that the GNU and forced exile of LDP from the cabinet was his version of the all curing snake oil and his political woes will be over. The euphoria of the LDP ejection has not materialized.
Same thing with the uhuru "pull-out". DP/MKM sympathizers squealed and giggled in delight at the demise of ODM specifically R's leadership. Well LDP just had had a contentious but what seems to be a successful election.
The big question now (since the dust hasnt settled yet) is whats going to happen to uhuru? he has no feet to shoot at any more and pretty soon will be aiming for his own head. How does he win a national election without Ruto and the Kalenjin vote? How does he fare with the Kikuyu vote if kickbak1 runs (which I doubt but I HOPE he does run). Where will uhuru get his votes from?
uhuru should beg kickback1 not to run and collate the Gema vote then seek the other community votes.
This time around its the kikuyus facing the arithmetic problem. Should kickback1 run and uhuru watch from the side lines? will KANU agree to him not running and NOT putting up a presidential candidate? If not uhuru who then? Ruto?
Let the dust settle..............and the cobbler wins It aint adding up!
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Post by aeichener on Jun 1, 2006 10:10:37 GMT 3
This time around its the kikuyus facing the arithmetic problem. Should kickback1 run and uhuru watch from the side lines? will KANU agree to him not running and NOT putting up a presidential candidate? If not uhuru who then? Ruto? Please learn to differentiate between polictics and the football world cup. Both sides will benefit from that. Alexander
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Post by abdulmote on Jun 1, 2006 10:58:02 GMT 3
People, Kenyans are trully amazing! I have no words to describe what I feel about this! Simply amazing. And Alex, thank you for your courageous support. Sadly many others who log in here would rather just watch in silence than say something to help us understand more about such an important discussion if at all possible. It doesn't help.
Let me be honest about this. I did not underestimate at all the complexity and 'toughness' of appreciating what I had stated above. And I am not saying this smply for the sake of 'blowing my own trumpet' as if boasting about my capacity to understand the same. Neither am I trying to sacrcastically belittle any of you in any way but far from it! I certainly have genuine and sincere respect for all of you! And I also appreciate your own unique mental faculties which certainly show remarkable abilities within your individual selves in your own individual manner.
But that is besides the point.
As I grew up, I learnt and realised that confronting ones own weaknesses can be one hell of a job. The process of 'accusing oneself' and accepting fault can be quite repulsive, especially where a person is very protective of their own 'ego'! Fortunately it is also a process that with effort can be learnt. But understably it also takes time, and this is why I can understand.
Now, I am not arrogantly trying to suggest that you have some form of 'under-developed minds' here. Not at all. Rather, I also do appreciate that every individual has their own 'path' of development which one pursues out of various factors, and that is not in dispute. But again I have also observed, that many and commonly so, find it difficult to confront the jinni in them by confronting its existence within, and here is a typical case!
What is this eh?
I have gone through all the responses given to my comments above. And I am sad to notice that apart from Alex, who came out very clearly in acknowledging the inherent objectivity in the contents of my post, majority others have conveniently 'evaded' my point of contention. Simply brushed aside, as if I was just talking of rubbish!
Here is one of the paragraphs again:-
Fact is there are many who had come before us and appeared to sincerely offer the people hope of good governance and desirable changes. In doing that, they were able to articulate their 'vision', with utmost zeal and unhindered enthusiasm never witnessed before. And the public inevitably recieved them with hope, joy, and never-experienced expectations. They went on to shower them with fragranced bouquets and sang and danced to rythms and sounds which only predicted a brilliant and positive outcome just about everybody would have ever wished for!
And then the results.
How can any of you forget eh? Was it not just the other day when akina muite and the late Jaramogi who were the champions of 'freedom fighting' for kenyans? Was it not the dreadlocked Koigi who was willing to put his own life on line for his people? What was Ruto doing for moi in his 'KY92' or something like that? Was it not Raila, kalonzo and uhuru plus others who used to share 'secret links' with moi, whilst others were sweating it out' against them? Was it not kibaki who promised kenyans so much and in return gave so little topped up with ultimate betrayal against the same? Go on, try completing the list if you can!
Then what???!
And now it 'appears' as if all of them have mutated into angels once again and are forgiven for their past sins. Freshly repackaged and waiting to be 'served'! It is just 'politics' we are told.
And look at what you guys are talking about. I certainly will refuse to become part of what perpetuates the miseries Kenyans have been suffering for so long! I refuse to become "willfully blind" to crispt reality which is so threatening to the masses we all pretend to fight for! To continue to praise any of those dudes mentioned above and dance to their tunes in such a manner, is nothing but sheer recklessness and hypocrisy of the highest order, against the very people we claim to cry for!
OK, it is right for Maina to observe that ultimately Kenyans need to have a president. But that means just that; getting a replacement president, full stop. What happens after that? How many times do we have to put up with betrayal after betrayal after betrayal and keep on coming for more? Have the 'strokes' not been enough yet for people with your capacities to appreciate the next very real possibilities eh? Replacement? Have we not realised yet that all we are doing here is behaving like hamsters running on their wheel in circles? When do we need or have to put a stop to this? For how long more before we say it is enough?
What I am saying here is lets just keep this 'president' thing aside for now, and I don't mean not to talk or discuss about it. But let us not give such discorse such a priority it may not deserve at the moment. Instead, let us try to work out a formula which will ensure that we do not continue to become part of the perpetrators of Kenya's miseries once more, by recycling the 'same old habits' through the same old ways and sheer naivety combined with our 'corrupt nature'. Let us not become part of our dark history I say. We can do this by ensuring that we do not take anyone for granted in their offer of leadership and be ready and willing to question their every move. WE can do this by first identifying the existence of our perennial problem through acknowledging the reality, and then seek to create possible solutions to remedy the same.
This is what in my opinion deserves a priority. The need to cover any potential loophole which sends us back again and again into the same nasty and destructive trap! This is the priority more than anything you can imagine. And I am not talking of the Constitution here. I had concluded long ago that not kibaki, neither any other president to come will give kenyans the constitution they really want! All of them are just conmen and women, and I simply cannot bear the thought of self deception in me! We need something else, ladies and gents. But first, we need to have true courage to confront our own weaknesses.
Take your time in digesting what I am saying here, and no evasive tactics please. Just open up your minds and you shall see.
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Post by maina on Jun 1, 2006 11:40:13 GMT 3
Abdulmote, Like I said in my previous thread (even though you conveniently took no notice), yours are captivating and perspicacious sentiments!
Nonetheless, your argument is still so much a faze to me. So I have to ask you directly; will you vote in 2007 if the status quo remains (that is, if all these enticing "things" you have mentioned do not materialize)? And if so, who do you presuppose you will vote for come 2007? I ask that because these are the exigent issues every Kenyan is talking about right now.
Just look around............aren't parties beginning to organize themselves (by holding internal elections, et cetera) in the auspices of courting the mwananchi for next year's elections?
Quite frankly, if you answers to the above questions is "NO", then I will rightfully begin to reason with you! But if it is "YES", please believe that I will continue to dress you down!
Maina
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Post by abdulmote on Jun 1, 2006 15:31:56 GMT 3
maina, I take note of the accolades you have bestowed upon me and at the same time appreciate your concerns. As a habit, I am not comfortable with re-focussing on any praises or indeed criticisms upon my person. They make me feel as if I am repeating the same in praise or otherwise of myself for others to see, something I don't feel anyone should be doing. Besides, I take yours to be a positive reaction to what I have stated as reflected in your perception and not necessarily a recognition of some form of 'excellence' I may have acquired and so deserve praises as such. No, but mine is just a simple efffort and I am to be thankful if at all I can be understood by anyone, and excercise patience and review my presentation where many may have missed my point. This subject is certainly deeper and weightier than I can admit so soon and I cannot pretend to have all the answers raised to the questions within. It is also not something one could just unwrap for all to digest at an instant, for everything within is not so simple and can be very daring even at the thought of seeking to understand the same.
To answer your question firstly maina, I think it wise always to bear in mind that one can and should only plan and prepare for matters to be held well long after present but not with a fixed mind and not open to unavoidable changes lying ahead. Will I vote come 2007 based on the current settings and understandings? I'd say NO! and the reason is simple; there is no potential change foreseeable to be worthy of that effort. None at all and that is my personal judgement and opinion.
In saying that, i am not at all calling for everyone to do the same. I am not suggesting that everything should come to a standstill and simply not vote or do nothing about it. On the contrary, I would urge more active involvement and participation in trying to ensure that whatever the outcome, acquires maximum improvements and becomes potentially sustainable and at the least beneficial to the longterm desires of the electorates. That should be everyone's aim and desire. What I was trying to observe earlier, is calling for everyone ones attention on the gapping loophole which renders everybody's effort as futile the minute campaigns and elections are over. Here I am talking of the actual vicious circle we tend to immerse ourselves in time and again! I am talking of the betrayals we have almost become immuned to, that we are so quick to forget and infact even ready and willing to help recreate once again!
If it is true that we come here to talk with genuine intentions just as many a times we proclaim to do, then all I am saying is let us give priority in addressing and seeking to eliminate such a fundamental cause towards our own destruction as a nation. We need to give priority upon the efforts of trying to find a sustainable remedy upon such a flaw inherent in our leaders, past, present and future. We need to make sure that whoever gets elected by us, does not and cannot end up betraying us at a flik of an eye once in power! In other words, we need to have preparatory and dettering measures which can provide us with such important and vital assurances and protection. But the question is what and how, and I do not mean about Ruto, Balala, Raila, Uhuru, Kalonzo, or Ngilu! I mean what do we do about this problem and how?
My dear people, the issue of elections coming is only a fallacy of the game! Five years is the term. For every five years, Kenyans vote for whoever they want. But since the removal of moi who had reigned for twenty four unsatisfactory and certainly brutal years, Kenyans have began to demand for a quicker and faster turnaround of our political offices. But five years remains as standard and that cannot be reduced. At at the same time we have to understand, Kenyans do not make a judgement upon the incumbent immediately one resumes office on being elected, particularly if one is new and fresh as had been kibaki as the President. In all probability, it takes at least two to three years before the public is confronted again with the prospects of change calling initiatives after very dissappointing regrets on the trust they had naively assumed. And then as is the case right now, the public gets engaged in verocious activities of trying to prepare for that change through various efforts as can be seen for the sake of mending the damage done. Next come elections and the whole circle begins afresh!
BUt look, there is an obvious gap here and something is obviously and prominently amiss! Do we ever talk of the betrayals just gone by? Do we ever ask ourselves what actually happens in the process that Kenyans find themselves in such a place, again and again? What appears to be the problem and how do we stop it from occuring even one more time despite all the promises and rhetorics given by our 'beloved' leaders? Are we genuinely honest with ourselves if we are to be easily swayed into campaigning for those who seek power, yet totally ignore the potential and everpresent causes that provide another set of opprotunities for another era of betrayals upon the people by the theiving elites in a few days time?
And if we don't raise such fundamental questions, is it because we are content with what we have and there are no further improvements that can be achieved? Or is it that we are so corrupt, we'd rather retain and maintain the status quo, with the aim and hope of parhaps 'benefitting' from the same shorfalls and loopholes, that have provided 'opportunities' to those we seek to remove? Or is it that we are simply so blind and shortsighted that we cannot see beyond our two inch noses? Huh?
There is no one for me to vote for yet!
Absolutely no one! No one has yet vigorously raised this very important and fundamental issue and that tells us a lot. They all appear to have common negative traits apart from the many we have raised here time and again and none is worthy of our wholesome trust and faith as given. Greed and selfishness. There is no hope within any of them and if that be the case, what is the point in the whole thing Iask?
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Post by maina on Jun 1, 2006 22:26:28 GMT 3
Abdulmote, Thank you for response. I appreciate that. I am now begining to understand you. Could you please kindly start a new thread on these matters because we are way off of tangent?
Maina
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