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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 17:21:40 GMT 3
From: "irene_ng25" <irene_ng25@...> Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:12 am Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene? irene_ng25
Hi OO,
I agree with you that we should stop trying the case on the net, but then you suggest that the woman might be the victim and all you have to go by is the medias version of her side of the story. Aren't you going a little far in your assumption that the woman may have said no but the Ngaithe didn't listen?
Do you know that there are times when a NO does not count if the man is too close to ejaculation? A jury in the UK argued temporary insanity during ejaculation and he worn the rape case. That the woman said no a little to late:) Granted that that is a rare occurrence, some women are conniving and they make it difficult for true cases of rape victims.
Rape by its very nature is very hard to prove and if we are sincerely trying to be fair the man's side does count too.
As for the moral issues, seeing that he is a man in a public office, One might expect a better role model. Personally I have learnt to be less judgmental and not to expect too much from ordinary motals.
Besides that is another matter all together which he would never go to jail for assuming it turns out not to be rape.
I guess my stand in matters like this is that although I am a woman, I shudder to think that a wrongful accusation could happen to men close to me. A brother, a husband, (when Rev becomes one) etc I could be wrong but allow me to say that it seems you have already taken a side:) Ngaithe is guilty until proven innocent......
IN
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 17:27:46 GMT 3
From: "Onyango Oloo" <oloo_wa_canada@yahoo.com> Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 9:48 am Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?
Irene:
I once spent five years in prison during which period I met hundreds of Kenyans who were railroaded on false charges. Recently the Canadian press covered a story of a man who has spent 12 years behind bars for a crime he did not commit- he had been accused of sodomizing and killing his 4 year old niece. It has now come to light that the coroner was wrong not only in this case but possibly dozens others.
During the Michael Jackson trial, I was one of the most ardent campaigners for his innocence.
In other words, I am NOT AUTOMATICALLY assuming that the person accused of rape is guilty.
What I am saying is something very different. I find it very disheartening that many times when a sexual case happens, the knee- jerk reaction from a lot of people, including women, is to BLAME the person making the rape allegations. When Njeeri wa Ngugi was brutally violated, I saw a mass circulated email claiming bizarrely that she was not raped at all, but was "circumcised" by the Mungiki with the connivance of her own husband Ngugi wa Thiongo! A Nairobi based writer friend of mine told me the other day that he saw tears streaming down the great writer's face as he read these online scrullious attacks.
Now we hear a case of rape involving the Kenyan ambassador to the United States and what do we have? People have already called the alleged victim a drunk, a malaya and I do not know what else!
Well guess what?
It is still ILLEGAL to rape drunks and malayas.
When there are credible accusations of sexual assault, the most transparent way to deal with them is have the matter thoroughly investigated and if there is credible evidence, prosecuted in a court of law where the accused person is presumed INNOCENT until proven guilty and where the victim/ complainant IS NOT PUT ON TRIAL instead.
Tell me something Irene:
Who ordered the recall of Ambassador Ngaithe?
Was it Onyango Oloo in Canada?
How did we get to hear this story that we are now discussing on the internet?
How did it jump from the private sphere of someone's bedroom/car/wherever the incident took place to cyberspace?
Somebody obviously notified the American authorities. I very much doubt if those same American authorities would have risked a major diplomatic row with the Kenyan government in the middle of a UN General Assembly meeting by nabbing an innocent man and flinging him out of the country.
In fact, if I am not mistaken, it is NOT the American government which put Mr Ngaithe on a plane back to Nairobi- it was his employer, the Kenyan government, whose very head, Mwai Kibaki was in town and had been with Mr Ngaithe on the very day of the incident. Surely, if these were the drunken allegations of a well known Washington/New York kahaba/changudoa, why would Mwai Kibaki approve the recalling of Ambassador Ngaithe to Nairobi?
Is it possible that the American authorities shared with their Kenyan counterparts some evidence of the serious allegations against Ambassador Ngaithe? Is it posssible that the Kenyan authorities having reviewed the gravity of the evidence may have decided that this was something they could not hush up?
Given Mr Ngaithe's stature, it goes without saying that Mwai Kibaki would valorize his version of events over that of a lowly junior staffer ama namna gani, Irene?
Why is it then, that Mr Ngaithe was recalled back to Nairobi?
For me, the issue should not end there. One hopes that Mr Ngaithe was not recalled because the Kenya government wanted to assist Mr Ngaithe to escape prosecution for his alleged sexual assault. One hopes that if there is credible evidence to link Mr Ngaithe to a sexual assault that he will actually be placed under arrest and tried- again with the presumption of innocence and a right to a lawyer of his choice. The difficulty of course, is how Mr Ngaithe can ever be tried in Kenya for an offence ALLEGEDLY committed on American soil.
Onyango Oloo
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Post by kamalet on Sept 20, 2005 18:26:19 GMT 3
The Kenyan ambassador to the United States was recalled after allegations surfaced that he sexually assaulted a fellow Kenyan diplomat, according to a diplomat posted at the United Nations who refused to be identified by name. The story was widespread in the Kenyan press, but much of what has been published has not provided an accurate depiction of the incident. Law enforcement officials told the New York Sun that the ambassador, Leonard Ngaithe, 47, and his 41-year-old colleague went out last Wednesday and they became intoxicated. They returned to the woman's Flushing, Queens, home where they allegedly had intercourse. The woman ran from Mr. Ngaithe to her neighbor's house and said he had sexually assaulted her, police said. The neighbor called the police. The woman was uncooperative, police said. During an examination in Flushing Hospital, the woman told police she would not press charges against Mr. Ngaithe. She further said the intercourse was consensual. Mr. Ngaithe, whose residence is a Potomac, Md., house owned by the Republic of Kenya, was not arrested www.nysun.com/article/20282So it could actually turn out to be consensual sex after all? According to the Standard today, Ngaithe apparently is still in the US. Mutua did deny the authenticity of the bulletin from the ministry recalling the ambassador and which the media quoted. Could this help dispel the wild speculation by Oloo?
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 18:33:47 GMT 3
Let us wait and see Kamale.
Incidentally, Kamale, it was NOT Oloo who broke this story, so stop that nonsense of "wild speculation by Oloo" already.
I still find it curious why the woman would run away from Mr Ngaithe after "consensual sex" and tell her neighbour that she had been sexually assaulted. Is this what normally happens after orgasms?
On the other hand, I have been in North America long enough to know how assaulted and abused women will change their stories under duress.
I also find it curious that these law enforcement officials were so eager to discuss the details of a sexual assault case with reporters.
So like I said, let us wait and see.
Onyango Oloo Toronto
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 19:42:12 GMT 3
From: _ - Tue, Sep 20, 12:46 PM The Washington Post, Washington Times, New York Times, New Post, Daily Mirror missed the scoop big time. Emily 'Wax' was left hanging dry because she failed to give a local commentary from an "eye witness" account by foreign correspondent. While the Kenyan papers did a great job by writing about the incident, whether allegations are true or false, before the New York Times or the BBC come with their own Mugabe version of breaking news. kenya.rcbowen.com/talk/index.cgi?action=Article&article=10718As for the alleged victim, time will tell when more information emerges regarding the many weekend flights she has taken in the past to meet with the former ambassador in Washington, DC. It's well by many in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs that two have had one of the longest on-going relationship since February of 1992. Rape is still rape whether the victim is married, single, a prostitute, an escort service agent, or is a young nun working at a downtwon soup kitchen for the homeles
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Post by aeichener on Sept 20, 2005 19:51:56 GMT 3
Well, let us examine the sources: - The New York Sun is yellow press. - The Nation and the Standard are serious newspapers, of much higher quality each than most US dailies (and writing from Europe, I am in a position to compare and to judge).
And the yarn spun, errr, I mean the allegedly "course of events" related in the NYS does not sound intrinsically credible, either (and maybe that is my professional bias, as a jurist).
Alexander
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 22:30:52 GMT 3
From: "mrbob_k" <mrbob_k@...> Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:03 pm Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?
Wuod Gem
This attitude of ....until proven guilty has sent many wives to their graves because they kept quiet about their errant husbands.
What if the ambassador has AIDS from his foray, his wife may die as an innocent victim. I always advise women who are married to run away for their dear life from their errant husbands. I know of women, very close to me, who have died because they contracted AIDS from their errant husbands. If they ran away they would be still alive. Oh!, they were so young and full of a promising future. Low moral scums need to be castrated. This is personal to me.
Bob-KIn support of rape victims
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 20, 2005 22:35:16 GMT 3
From: "Onyango Oloo" <oloo_wa_canada@yahoo.com> Date: Tue Sep 20, 2005 3:06 pm Subject: Re: so the rape victim planned it all eh, irene?
Bob-K:
My extended take on the New York Sun article that some people are using as the "final vindicator" for the ambassador is as follows:
1. The story just does NOT make any sense. Apparently after a robust round of "consensual sex" the woman runs out of her own house to her neighbour's to claim that she had been sexually assaulted. I can say, with very little chance of being contradicted, that over 83.4% of the people reading this have at least one sexual encounter as an adult.
Now how many times will your lover leap from your bed, dashing to the jirani to claim that you have sexually assaulted them? Why would they do that? Sexual intimacy, by its very nature, is a very private affair and it must take an extra ordinary set of circumstances for someone to behave in such a "bizarre" manner.
2. The neighbour calls the police. Again, I doubt if that neighbour would just ringing 911 the moment the words came tumbling out of her mouth.
3. The alleged victim according to the New York tabloid, becomes "uncooperative" according to their police sources. She now says it was consensual sex. Again, this is the tabloid version and there is no way of verifying if this is in fact what happened.
By the way, I find it very odd that the cops were giving this amount of copious detail to a reporter about a matter involving a diplomat.
Let us assume that the tabloid account is correct. The police have gone to the scene and at the hospital they find a woman who has changed her story. According to the New York Sun, the ambassador was not arrested.
So how did Hon. Ngaithe find himself being recalled to Nairobi? On what basis? When I first heard the story, it was NOT from the Standard, but from a middle aged Central Kenyan woman in New York- and her sources were very close to the Presidential entourage. At that time it was more of how "Raisi wetu ameaibishwa na balozi wetu na ameregeshwa nyumbani mara moja".
What is unfortunate is that the emphasis is now shifting from the sexual assault which happened to salvaging the reputation of a swinger diplomat.
I expect more hatchet jobs on the Kenyan woman as sexists do a number on her reputation- as if that will make the original outrage disappear.
Onyango Oloo Toronto
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 21, 2005 20:12:50 GMT 3
From: "otwomad" <Otwomad@...> Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:05 am Subject: Re: Siendi Popote Otwoma wa Vienna
OO,
Kusema kweli I have always enjoyed having oportunities to shika shika. But after listening to my elder sisters and now my many younger ones narrate how they hate or do not enjoy it, I would be the last one to attempt justifying my wayward imaginations. It is in talking loudly I remind myself not to actualize what the Id (remember Sigmund Freud) part keeps telling me to do but let the Ego and Superego be in control. That aside when in an environment where touching is part of the treat Ego and Superego are given forced leave.
Otherwise bakia hapo hapo (not like Mo1 would say).
Otwoma
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 21, 2005 20:17:16 GMT 3
From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...> Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:37 pm Subject: Bob-A-consensual? Re: Kenyan Ambassador Recalled Following Sex Allegations
Bob,
How "OFTEN" do women or MEN, DASH out of their houses in the MIDDLE of the night just to WAKE up their neighbours and to "inform" them they had just had "consensual" sex? At that rate, the whole CITY would be awake for most of the nights! How often do neighbours call police to report that their neighbor has just informed them about an act of consensual sex? All the formulae I learned in all my years of doing mathematics dont seem to apply to this scenario--I need a NEW formula!
NSMC
--- In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, "awuorblaise" <awuorblaise@y...> wrote: > --- In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, "s_maina" <s_maina@y...> wrote: > > > I dont understand how one can be sexually assaulted and have > > consensual sex in the same act! > > > > NSMC > > > Sue, > > Perhaps 'the act' was hotter than what he's been dispensing previously > to the same receiver? > > Hence consensual turns into assault:-) > > I only hypothesize since, from what is said, 'the woman leapt out and > told her neighbour who called the police'? > > [What exactly makes a woman to jump off a mating mat?] > > > > +Fr Awr
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 21, 2005 21:46:44 GMT 3
From: "Onyango Oloo" <oloo_wa_canada@yahoo.com> Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 1:54 pm Subject: On "Consensual" Assault Dada Nyambura: That is EXACTLY the swali I posed earlier. It is amazing to see how people are clutching at a report in a sleazy New York tabloid while accusing other people of being sleazy and sensationalist. Think about it: What is the likelihood that the police would go blabbing in such detail to a scandal sheet in New York city- with so much detail regarding the conduct of a diplomat? This fig leaf that ostensibly "clears" the Hon. Ambasssador, reveals more holes than it covers. Why would a woman who has been allegedly a long time consort to Kenya's top diplomat in the US flee from the bedroom or right after a sizzling session of coitus non-interruptus to go bang her neighbour's doors pleading that the neighbour should open up because she had just been sexually assaulted? We know that in a lot of cases, women DO NOT even report the daily acts of date rape, indecent assault and other forms of sexualized violence. According to the same tabloid there are two contradictory aspects of the woman's account that we have to examine. She flees HER OWN APARTMENT to seek sanctuary in her neighbour's home. Obviously she did not feel safe enough in her own apartment to make that call from her own phone. I would have given the story more credence had I heard that first, they had "consensual sex" then when the man was sleeping, sated, she slipped in a surreptious call to the cops. Secondly we are told that the woman made it up to the hospital and that is when she changed her story and became "uncooperative.". Think about it: Everyone is focusing on the ambassador and his reputation. How about the woman, the alleged rape victim? Perhaps she too was thinking of the lurid stories, already flashed on these forums of her "misogynist slamty behaviour" with a married man, her boss to boot; who was going to believe that her own boss could assault her in her own home? And people have made much of the fact that the assault happened at her place. So freaking what? If a woman invites you to her place does that mean that she is inviting you to her vagina? Not necessarily folks. Way back in 1992 when I was working for a certain Toronto based organization we had to discipline a certain board member of ours who followed one of our female staff to her home and started pressurizing her for sex. She felt very vulnerable because this board member was technically the boss of her boss- our then executive director. She was scared very much of losing her job; on the other hand, she was not about to "have sex" with some strange man whose only connection with her was in the workplace. So what did she do? She quickly came up with a ruse of some relative visiting her imminently to get rid of the man. She did not immediately report the incident at work. We noticed something was wrong when the normally punctual woman called in "sick" several times in one week and when she came in it was obvious that there was something bothering her. Fortunately she found one person she could confide in and finally like a dam, her story came flowing between copious sobs. We had a staff meeting and we decided that the safest thing for all of us was to take a collective staff position by writing a letter to the board expressing our solidarity with our co-worker. Long story short, the board member soon became an ex-board member. Let us even imagine that they had an ongoing sexual liaison. So what? The fact remains that the power dynamics between the two was one of superior to inferior. In saying all this, I do not mean to be sanctimonious. This is something that is not confined to any one person and we do not need to feel superior about this. Some of my own relatives have taken advantage of their own schoolgoing sisters-in-law and impregnated them while these young woman were staying with the family after being plucked from their rural homes; one of my most embarassing moments here in Canada was the shock I got when I was blithely telling some Ugandan refugees about one of my relatives who used to work with a certain refugee organization in Kenya. Their response was " So that was your relative? What a creep! Did you know that he used to insist on sleeping with almost every refugee woman who came into his office? If he ever comes to visit you in Canada, tell him to watch his back because some of our sisters walk with knives in their hand bags." It is true that this story is still unfolding. What we see emerging also is this campaign to whitewash and silence the voices who are loudly raising concerns about sexual assault in Kenyan society. The interesting thing is that a few months ago when we were debating punishment to be meted out to sexual offenders, some of us were blasted when we expressed our reservations with such extreme measures as chemical castration. We reminded people then of the prevalance of sexual assault in Kenyan society and did talk of the class dynamics of confronting alleged offenders. Do you remember how quickly people were baying for the blood of that animal who was caught in the act of sexually assaulting a minor? Where is the outrage? Or do we feel today that grown adult Kenyan women can somehow "tolerate" or "take" a sexual assault incident in a manner that will allow us to let the perpetrator off the hook? For reference here is the essay I was talking about: demokrasia-kenya.blogspot.com/2005/04/letter-to-kenyan-national-assembly-\on.html Onyango Oloo Toronto--- In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, "s_maina" <s_maina@y...> wrote: > Bob, > How "OFTEN" do women or MEN, DASH out of their houses in the MIDDLE > of the night just to WAKE up their neighbours and to "inform" them > they had just had "consensual" sex? At that rate, the whole CITY > would be awake for most of the nights! How often do neighbours call > police to report that their neighbor has just informed them about an > act of consensual sex? All the formulae I learned in all my years of > doing mathematics dont seem to apply to this scenario--I need a NEW > formula! > > NSMC > > > --- In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, "awuorblaise" <awuorblaise@y...> > wrote: > > --- In kenyaonline@yahoogroups.com, "s_maina" <s_maina@y...> wrote: > > > > > I dont understand how one can be sexually assaulted and have > > > consensual sex in the same act! > > > > > > NSMC > > > > > > Sue, > > > > Perhaps 'the act' was hotter than what he's been dispensing > previously > > to the same receiver? > > > > Hence consensual turns into assault:-) > > > > I only hypothesize since, from what is said, 'the woman leapt out > and > > told her neighbour who called the police'? > > > > [What exactly makes a woman to jump off a mating mat?] > > > > > > > > +Fr Awr
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 22, 2005 0:09:17 GMT 3
From: "s_maina" <s_maina@...> Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:32 pm Subject: OO--silence is LOUD! Re: On "Consensual" Assault- Corrected Version s_maina
OO wetu,
Its true that we dont know all the details of this case, " Lakini, there is LARGE DOSE of "respector of persons" phenomenon in the way this story is being HANDLED! "Assault by any other name or by ANY PERSON is ASSAULT"!
BTW, I wonder which pharmaceutical company will win the contract to supply the chemical "castration" meds to Kenya and what one injection will cost the government. Any Kenyan investors out there?
NSMC
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Post by Onyango Oloo on Sept 22, 2005 0:19:02 GMT 3
From: "awuorblaise" <awuorblaise@...> Date: Wed Sep 21, 2005 3:37 pm Subject: Bob-A-consensual? Re: Kenyan Ambassador Recalled Following Sex Allegations
Sue,
ZILCH answers most of your questions below, but recall, also, that for every rule there's the odd exception:-) ... more so where significant 'intoxication' is part of the same sentence!
But that is not my point of writing this: my point is to give you a mathematical formula (and you can call it +Fr Awrs hypothesis').
What we are trying to 'explain' is an unusual situation where a man and woman, quite sexually accustomed to each other, commence the act for the nth time, except that on this occasion the woman, after a few goes, literally jumps off the mat, runs to the neighbour, and says (whatever) that terrifies the said neighbour into calling the police. And when the police arrive, the said woman tells them to go away: consensual, consensual, consensual (call it, after 'coming to' - or resuming a state of 'normalcy').
Me thinks the 'phenomenon' ['jumping bail' and/or 'bpltinh out' in hysterics' and running out to the neighbour] could be explained a way by the possibility of the man - for once - 'outperforming himself', as in some wonder performance-enhancing catalyst, hence on this occasion doing a marathoner of a really bruising encounter never before registered by the woman in their previous bouts. So, here is the woman saying 'STOP, tiga nihuhie', but the man keeping on keeping on, like a deranged wall-geko: 'STOP, i'm hurting yawa STOP, seriously ...' but does he even hear? He is in that state of 'psychomental and spiritual flux', 3rd-degree derangement, that my sweet friend Irene defines as '.... temporary insanity ...': what does a woman do, but to bolt-off the mat, like a horse, 'kicking and braying' as she ejects out of the house, to the neighbour's utter bewilderment ... a neighbour who, on seeing her state of utter un-dress (after all hasn't she just sped off the love-mat?), tranze-like bedazzlement, a weeping woman, and thoroughly dis-organised compossure, ... straight away registers SEX! You would, wouldn't you, if a 41 years old next-door female neighbour ran to your door in the wee hours of the night looking like that, with all the fish- like auras? Then you ask her and she aint answering you properly and, as she is still crying, you straignt away link in rape (perhaps the woman, like most victims of rape, is just lost for words), upon which you do the honourable citizen thing and call in the police:
BINGO! The police arrive, all sirens-blazing, which bring her back to reality from her excessive libido-induced stupor and tranze, and what does she tell the police? IT WAS CONSENSUAL! Poor police - with too much work to do elsewhere - just leave the scene!
This UNUSUAL phenomenon [consensual-rape shout] could easily also have been caused by a woman NOT BELIEVING being told a piece of shoking/uncomplimentary piece of information whilst on the blissful CRESCENDO of ... ! They have just had a couple, if not more, of really proposal-inducing bouts .... and, given a bit of 'intoxication-driven ... [I'll settle for PASSION], she suddenly blurts that 'when-are-you-marrying-me?-Tell-me-now!-I-want-to-marry- you-RIGHT-NOW!-I-don't-care-if-you-are-married!-I-HATE-YOUR-WIFE-You- are-not-going-anywhere-I-just-want-to-have-you-forever....!' kind of BLURTS, to which the man, shocked out of his own tranze and temporary insanity, says a simple wrong, really-brain-bursting thing that's not meant for when two people are, as Dauuu would put it, SEEKING GOD in vertical tongue-in-grove embrace: 'I-AM-MARRIED-AND-I- AM-NOT-LEAVING-MY-WIFE-FOR-JUST-YOU, GET-IT-sexist slur?! [and when a man's wife is INSULTED by another women, he gets real angry, even if he is in the middle of a mating, or if you like, 'God-finding', rendezvous. From a really 'blissful tranze' brought back to reality with a THUD through such a statement, which woman, even I, would not BOLT the EMBRACE ... let alone something sould-deep, and run out of the appartment - naked, ruffled, and totally mad-and-barking BESERK?
That's my hypothesis: please study it, and poke holes in it, but it is more PLAUSIBLE than sweet Irene's rape-consensual' proposition.
End of sermon Sue ....:-)!
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Post by aeichener on Sept 22, 2005 0:51:38 GMT 3
Lots of exclamation marks. Lots of unnecessary capitalizations. Lots of wild sperm-induced fantasies.
No need to "poke holes" in this -- it already *is* a Swiss cheese.
Alexander
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